2027 BMW M3 Handschalter Breaks the Rules by Giving the CS a Manual.
Posted by LongjumpingLock5875@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 102 comments
Posted by LongjumpingLock5875@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 102 comments
yobo9193@reddit
BMW will do anything except throw more than a Starbucks gift card worth of R&D money at its ZF manual transmission
purz@reddit
Ya I don’t know why anyone that has a giant hard on for manual would ever get an M car. Especially this car which is essentially a giant slap in the face lmao.
terraphantm@reddit
I mean if you want a nicer manual car but want to spend less than the 175k a Carrera T will cost, what else is there?
hopfield@reddit
If you want a manual luxury car it’s either this or a Blackwing, and let’s be honest the BMW has a better interior and brand image.
TheBolognaPony@reddit
They just need to suck it up and go with a tremec already. Higher torque rating, better feel, already available, reliable, and othersl manufacturers who use the ZF 8 speed have already used a tremec 6 speed.
yobo9193@reddit
Who uses/used the Tremec and ZF combo? Dodge with the old Hellcats?
TheBolognaPony@reddit
Yes, but also the 5.7L, 6.1L, and 6.4L/392 Challeneger.
3rdreprieve@reddit
The automatic 6.1s were only ever paired with the 722.6 automatic transmission to my knowledge. I don’t recall a time where you could get the ZF 8 speed in a 6.1 car.
TheBolognaPony@reddit
Dang, I think you're right.
tiagojpg@reddit
3.50€
PEEWUN@reddit
GOT DAMN LOCH NESS MONSTER!
Seymour_Tamzarian@reddit
Lmfao well said
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit (OP)
"The rear-drive stick-shift M3 CS will only be sold in the United States, and it'll carry a $108,450 starting price."
"the RWD Handschalter has the same 473-hp version of that engine as the regular manual-transmission M3. Still, BMW claims the hand-shifted CS can accelerate from zero to 60 mph in 4.1 seconds, and if you keep your foot glued to the floor, the sports sedan will top out at 180 mph."
Another day, another brand realizing how much money there is in the US for performance manual cars.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
The issue isn’t whether or not people will buy it
The issue is how much does it cost BMW to do these different configurations versus how much do they make back for the sales
EarthOk2418@reddit
This. What folks don’t understand is that every configuration requires EPA testing and certification, which isn’t cheap. So the additional cost to test/certify a manual version of the CS just for the US needs to be justified, thus the price reflects how much it’ll cost to recoup both the development and regulatory expenses.
This is why Porsche only offers a manual for the T and GT3 versions of the 911. It would be cost prohibitive to certify the S, GTS, Turbo, and Turbo S models in coupe, convertible, and targa configurations.
Bugeaters@reddit
992.2 GTS's and Turbo's cannot have a manual since part of the hybrid system is an electric motor integrated in the PDK gearbox itself.
mishap1@reddit
If Porsche sees $$$, they will find a way in a couple more years.
ThePretzul@reddit
Nah, they’ll just make up a new more exclusive “911 T RS” or something that has 25 allocations across the whole US and an MSRP of $750k
MotoMD@reddit
No because they always have before. It’s a combination of interest, cost, and EPA regulations. Maybe if Porsche wasn’t losing money this past year they could justify a manual S but they’re leaving money on the table when they don’t opt in. I’m one of those people.
StandupJetskier@reddit
Europe allows you to certify the powertrain, but the US requires it in the vehicle, so this answer is correct, and why we don't get, say, a wagon version of the car.....
NoctD@reddit
BMW saw what Porsche is selling and given the lower price point of the M3 CS even compared to they’ll have an absolute slam dunk and sell everyone they can build.
mishap1@reddit
Not much more given it’s pretty much the same manual that’s been behind every high power BMW for nearly 25 years. Give it the base car engine with the fancy CS styling bits and you’ve got yourself a car that’s sold out by the time this article posted.
RAM_AIR_IV@reddit
Hopefully these get bought by enthusiasts and not broccoli haired trust fund kids who seem to exclusively drive (and wreck) new M3s
familyguy20@reddit
It starts at $108k lmao so probably not
MicrowavedPlatypus@reddit
Have you been to Southern California?
wiscotangofoxtreat@reddit
Folks have no concept of how much money these kids get from mommy and daddy.
Naroef@reddit
And then they like to say “Yeah I bought it for $108k.”
Chronumn@reddit
South FL is a playground for kids in M cars
Storm_Chaser06@reddit
Trust fund dads are plentiful
WordWithinTheWord@reddit
You’d be shocked
Storm_Chaser06@reddit
You think those kids know how to drive a manual?
-GenlyAI-@reddit
Plenty (maybe most?) of us were "broccoli" heads at one point. I'm sure the boomers were pissed at what we were doing with Terminators, WS6, M3, SHO, GTO, Lightning etc
SaltAggressive5626@reddit
Facts. My first car @15 was a 68 GTO with a 385. That was 43yrs ago. Lucky to be alive.
Low_Succotash5073@reddit
Bold of you to assume the broccoli heads know how to drive manual
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Pretty ironic statement, given your garage
AwesomeBantha@reddit
Plenty of broccoli heads out there with clapped out NA Miatas and VQ Zs/Gs which are mostly manual.
Umbra427@reddit
Those are the broccoli heads of 10-15 years ago.
AwesomeBantha@reddit
Look up Miata on TikTok, Instagram Reels, or YouTube shorts and you’ll see that they’re very much the broccoli heads of today
Alternative_Ear5542@reddit
My 17 year old nephew has been really enthusiastic about learning stick shift, so I've been teaching him on a Supercharged NB Miata.
It's only a little scary.
Low_Succotash5073@reddit
We can get into the weeds about Broccoli Head taxonomy, but it won’t be value-added. If they know how to drive stick then I don’t really see a problem.
samcuu@reddit
They can if they spend like an afternoon to learn. It's just if any of them want to.
Umbra427@reddit
Yea but they’re not going to do that
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit (OP)
The kids buying G80 M3's are not buying manual ones.
They are all XDrive ones because if you own the RWD automatic ones, people on tiktok will tell you its slow.
Avariice@reddit
It’s crazy how many people have x drive m cars in so cal
davewritescode@reddit
Who gives a fuck? If you see an M3 on TikTok it’s 50/50 whether it gets wrapped around a tree within the next year.
JEs4@reddit
Yes, that is what the people you replied to are saying..
The people on TikTok are the ones that give a fuck, hence the conclusion that TikTok M3s are AWD and won’t be this.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
GET A DOWNPIPE AND A TUNE, BRO! DO YOU HAVE A DOWNPIPE AND A TUNE? DOWNPIPE AND A TUNE!
PEEWUN@reddit
The broccoli boys can't drive stick.
MotoMD@reddit
I don’t really care who buys it, if the demand wasn’t there they wouldn’t make it
tsrich@reddit
Not sure how many enthusiasts can afford 110k starting.
dragonitexy@reddit
Every time I've seen a G80/81 base it's been driven by a civil war veteran or a family with 2.5 kids
pablxo@reddit
I've noticed this demographic leans more towards the M2 rather than the M3/M4
Honestly wonder why that is? Price?
Krxphty@reddit
So what’s the likelihood of a m4 cs handschalter
macgirthy@reddit
Time to trade in my m2 comp!!!!! :D
gIOonNii@reddit
Nice that it becomes rwd but I'm not sure a manual is really the best way to experience this car. I'm sure the us market will buy plenty though.
mishap1@reddit
They make the regular CS and you can turn off AWD if you want.
This is a limited edition that’s probably already sold out. It’s basically the Porsche strategy. There are faster and better handling versions.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
You can only turn off AWD if you also fully turn off traction control.
gIOonNii@reddit
I know, it's just i kinda like the idea of the lighter, simpler RWD powertrain more. I guess it's not that different than wanting a manual on this kind of car.
I do get the reason for this car, especially considering it's specifically for the American market, the comment on the manual is just a personal consideration.
mishap1@reddit
I have an F80 M3 Comp 6spd. I could have bought a much faster and special CS with some miles for a bit more or I could have also just bought a Tesla 3 Performance if I wanted acceleration. Could have also sprung for a G80 but I had an F30 before so it worked for me.
They will clear out these just fine and they'll be on Bring a Trailer in a few years.
gIOonNii@reddit
I don't doubt it, again it was just a personal opinion. I really don't care about power numbers and acceleration, I just feel that this kind of engine is better suited to a short geared automatic than a manual, that's it.
I also find it interesting that it's the American market that's asking for this while here in Europe a manual on that kind of car isn't really particularly sought after.
mishap1@reddit
The auto is geared 40% taller than the manual in 8th vs 6th once your factor the taller final drive and has 30% more gears to choose from. I believe it's about 10% shorter in 1st.
Almost any modern turbo motor is better suited for an automatic from a performance standpoint. Autos can stay on boost without lifting, build boost off the line, and hold tighter gears to stay near power peak the whole time.
The US market has been primarily automatic cars for decades so performance cars with manuals were always more exotic, sporty, and considered more engaging to drive. Driving a gutless 3-4 cylinder econobox with a 4/5 speed, floppy shifter, and vague clutch hasn't been a thing for virtually anyone here so I get why people don't associate manuals with performance cars there.
vectaur@reddit
Eye of the beholder, all that.
I would gladly give up the tippy top end of performance to get a third pedal.
4r4r4real@reddit
Part of the issue though is that BMW does not have a good manual and hasn't for a while. Kind of like the GTI - when it's bad manual vs great automatic it's not so clear cut.
stillpiercer_@reddit
You’ll still get diehards in the VW corner saying the only “real” one is the manual, but you’re 100% dead on. Bad manual or fantastic automatic was an easy choice for me.
4r4r4real@reddit
Last time I was car shopping the mk 7.5 R was on my final cut list. When I searched for listings, every other car I selected manual only except the R, where I selected auto only. Granted that didn't work great because a lot of people like to pretend the DSG is a manual too lmao.
gIOonNii@reddit
I don't care about the performance, I just feel that with that amount of power and a turbo engine the automatic might give a better experience. My parents have a Giulia 2.0 and I adore using that gearbox.
mishap1@reddit
Didn’t they have it on the F10 M5 as an option? It made 502 lb-ft which is more than any G80.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
It’s a different gearbox.
FatMonkeyMilk@reddit
CS, but without the CS engine.
Rear wheel drive only, nice.
US market only... Production run not yet disclosed
RangeRoverHSE@reddit
All the G8x manuals have had this lower spec engine, I wonder if it's a transmission limitation? The manual they use can't handle the power perhaps?
rugbyfiend@reddit
Yes clearly stated for years, it’s a torque limitation on the (now very old) MT
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
The transmission is not that old. It’s newer than the TR6060 that everybody loves.
Plus_Aura@reddit
The ZF manual that goes into these cars can hold 1000HP no problem. In fact they make plate adaptors to slap them on LS engines. It being an old design doesn't mean it's bad, it's in everything from the first 335i to the Supra to M3/4
The issue is the clutch. They're rated for what the engine puts out. You can upgrade the clutch and hold crazy power. But I guess BMW matches the clutch rating for balance of comfort and performance. Nobody really wants to daily a 1000HP rated clutch
yobo9193@reddit
Huge difference between “it can handle this power on a street build” and “the manufacturer guarantees it can handle this much power”. BMW knows that the transmission can handle more power, but they don’t want to spend the money to upgrade or refine it so it’s rated by ZF for that torque capacity.
AcanthaceaeNo948@reddit
They use the manual on the Batmobile.
essjay2009@reddit
Apparently the clutch was originally rated for 450ish horsepower. They made some enhancements to get it up to a bit over 500 but I’d guess they want a bit of head room.
icecream_specialist@reddit
I bet a heavier duty clutch would actually sell well at least for a few years. Completely agree that they are not as easy and comfortable to drive BUT, you don't realize what a pain it is while on a test drive, you are super excited about a powerful manual car, you don't get exhausted from creeping in traffic for a couple months. So long as the clutch isn't so heavy that an older guy can't operate it, it will sell. And 6 months later when the owner decides they can't deal with it anymore, maybe they'll trade it in so really BMW potentially sells two cars.
wiscotangofoxtreat@reddit
You'd think they'd be able to tune for higher in the rev range then.
yobo9193@reddit
Yeah, the GS6-37BG dates back to the E chassis. The torque capacity is also why they don’t offer a manual on 4 cylinder models anymore; the Getrag had a torque capacity of 250 ft lbs
DooceBigalo@reddit
Yes
Kongary@reddit
I love that these manuals still pop up here and there, but the enthusiast premium cost for them is pretty wild. Still, I dig it and kudos to whoever gets one and actually drives it.
The premium manual thing has been interesting to watch over the years. Even Acura going out of its way to make a 6-spd but top-range-only TL 15 yrs ago that now seems forgotten.
The3rdbaboon@reddit
Is Handschalter not a slightly sus name??
PEEWUN@reddit
If you're a weirdo, sure.
potatohead_v2@reddit
Give the wagon a manual, you cowards!
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit (OP)
Europeans apparently don't buy manual luxury performance cars lol.
Americans seem to be the only ones keeping it alive.
stillpiercer_@reddit
I think it’s because “normal” cheaper cars in Europe were historically manuals, so people with money buying nicer cars don’t want to deal with a manual anymore.
MotoMD@reddit
Yea I was renting a car there and they were shocked I wanted a manual. They said everyone wants an auto because they all drove manuals normally. It’s the opposite here.
tiagojpg@reddit
It’s the same trend with famous people goin around with wired earphones. AirPods and wireless earphones became so mainstream that going back to wired (somehow) became a statement.
Knuda@reddit
Because manual isnt a luxury here.
Also tbh as someone who has driven manual everything all his life (cars, motorcycles, tractors, trucks etc)....I wouldnt mind a paddle shifting car.
potatohead_v2@reddit
This is unfortunately true, there are less and less manual buyers for new cars, but somehow the opposite is true when it comes high-end low-volume cars that are out of production. I still don't understand why this gap exists so significantly...
taticalgoose@reddit
I'm sure someone will well acktually me on something small I missed but this is basically the base motor with 75lbs removed from the chassis, carbon ceramic brakes, a titanium muffler and unique wheels for $28k more than the base car? How underwhelming.
CallLivesMatter@reddit
Dampers from the M4 CSL and a lower ride height as well.
tripboy311@reddit
When will dealers see this to order in their system?
mintz41@reddit
This puppy is gonna have about $100k in ADM
AwesomeBantha@reddit
People said that about the M3/M4 CS and those are selling in basically new condition for under MSRP
mintz41@reddit
its the manual gearbox I think
Lefthandedsock@reddit
Damn, it feels like the G8x generation was just released a few years ago.
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit (OP)
The G8x generation still has plenty of years left.
The next gen M3 will be the G84 M3
mandatoryclutchpedal@reddit
This car speaks to me. (Checking wallet)
costafilh0@reddit
"CS" = 1700Kg
Modern cars are a joke.
At least it can look good with just an aftermarket front bumper replacement.
The the new M2 only looks good while burning to ashes.
rugbyfiend@reddit
Initially thought this was very cool but they’ve kept the same base engine tune as they obviously weren’t going to put a stronger gearbox in a limited run.
kfzdt@reddit
For 10 years it was "We cant do Manual under new regulations" and every new model people explode when the carmakers suddenly drop the manual sports car