Are recent model of BMWs as reliable as people say?
Posted by disallow@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 92 comments
Everyone tells me that recent (past 2020) BMWs are VERY reliable, they have a reliable engine and all that. People on reddit also confirm it and also some independent reports.
A friend told me BMW uses a lot of platic for their internal components which can break and it adds up in costs. Another friend just changed some oil filter cover, then the oil filter gasket, then some other sensor which gave a drive train warning.
I'm not a car guy, so I have to ask, what is considered "normal" repairs once a car has 5 years? I have friends who have VW, Audi's and Toyotas but their car doesn't need repairs as often (ok maybe besides the Audi).
So what do they really measure in terms of reliability in the context of "recent BMWs are very reliable"? I understand they always focus on "engine is rock solid", but is that really the only data point they consider while everything else seems to break more than other cars? Thanks!
windmill09@reddit
When I look at reliable, I look past 100k miles. I made the same mistake when everyone, even Consumer Reports, assumed the N55 would be much more reliable than the N54. So I bought a new 2011 335i M sport and it was the worst financial decision I ever made. After a few years it would break down every few months, ie. Failed high pressure fuel pump, wastegate, charge pipe, etc.
Now is the same cycle with the B58. Now that more are reaching past 100k miles, a lot of cars are having all the similar plastic engine component issues: valve cover, oil filter gasket, cooling system, PVC valve, vanos, and high pressure fuel pump failures.
I think I still might get a B58 car one day because I have JDM turbo nostalgia, but it will be a second or third car to pair with my Lexus RCF that has been tough as hell.
highersense@reddit
Your mistake was buying a n55 in its infancy, late production n55's are a LOT better.
You are also being unfair, 100k miles + is the lifespan for a lot of these ancillaries, water pump, vanos solenoids etc are moving parts, entropy gets everything, what REALLY should be of concern is how much labour is it to replace ( 5 mins of removing a part and putting new one in is fine, engine out to replace it is a killer) and how much are the parts to replace ($300 waterpump from pierburg is fine, $300 sidemarker that is out of production and has no oem support anymore and no aftermarket alternative is less fine)
windmill09@reddit
They are normal wear and tear for a German car. It is NOT normal wear and tear to have to replace the cooling system in any other car. My RCF gets drifted and its rev limiter banged off every week and it's never needed a single repair in over 11 years.
highersense@reddit
Yes it is, everything breaks and leaks and needs replacing eventually, its simply a question of when.
a high performance car has more strain and stress and tighter tolerances that will need maintenance. Your anecdotal example of an rcf doing well is great, except they are totally different performance levels and architecture, theres also n55 that haven't needed anything in that mileage and time too. Your rcf might need everything doing soon, its just hasnt yet.
I agree some things like plastic chargepipe etc should be metal but cost/weight/emissions savings trump all for manufacturing, this sucks but in general the later pwg n55 are really quite good for servicing laboir and parts costs.
windmill09@reddit
What I'm arguing is not that things wear out. Of course they do and I agree. I'm saying the German stuff always wears out in half the time of the comparable Lexus.
I know that's how German cars are. That's why I'm comfortable owning one as a second or third car next to a reliable daily like the RCF which somehow has more high performance credibility in that it is actually used in GT3, unlike the B58. The OG M2 and MK5 Supra are some really cool cars though.
highersense@reddit
The parts you mentioned are made by bosch, pierburg etc, they are used across mostly all oems for german cars. Aisin and denso more so for japanese cars, if you saying these manufacturers are far superior then fair enough, but i dont think that is true.
Gt3 cars are nothing like the road car, gt4 maybe, but youd be hard pressed to find anything analogous to real world from a gt3. The engine etc is very different and its silly to give that as a reason for superiority in performance or longevity.
windmill09@reddit
I'm only mentioning GT3 because you are arguing that the B58 is a high performance engine. I'm agreeing, but I'm also saying there are high performance cars that don't have the reliability issues BMW cars have. The RCF GT3 has a 5.4 liter engine instead of 5.0. They also replaced the oil system with a dry sump system. The GT3 also uses a sequential gearbox. The street version uses the Aisin 8 speed which is probably one of the most (if not the most) reliable transmissions ever made. Toyota does race with the Supra chassis, but replaced the powerplant with their V8. I think that says a lot about their confidence in the B58 as a high performance engine.
We disagree in that you don't believe German car parts are inferior to Japanese made parts. We can disagree. I only know from anecdotal experience and my knowledge of class action law suits against car manufacturers. For example, there is evidence to show that BMW uses weak plastic components and Mercedes doesn't even bother to rust proof their cars.
"Class Action Lawsuit Says Several BMW, MINI Models Plagued by Engine Oil Filter Housing Defect"
"‘Too Dangerous to Drive’: 2010-2022 Mercedes-Benz Models Plagued by Rear Subframe Rust Defect, Class Action Says"
Based on own anecdotal experience, there is not a single doubt in my mind that Japanese cars, and Lexus/Toyota in particular, are built to a much higher standard of quality. German cars had their reliable days in the 1980s. My 1990 e30 325i had 550k miles before I sold it. It not to that level anymore. They "sell" their cars as leases 90% of the time and extra money placed on reliability is not worth the time and money to the shareholders. The owners should be aware of what they are getting into with German cars. People online are literally say they one of the most reliable cars in the world, which is just ridiculous.
highersense@reddit
What? This is so incoherent?!
Where did i mention b58, i said n55, but b58 IS a high performance road engine. Its not a gt3 engine, but we aren't talking about racing cars, its irrelevant what lexus uses in gt3. Bmw uses p58 a highly modified s58, in gt3, with every change you listed too. What has that got to do with long term reliability in their road cars? Absolutely fuck all.
What is good in gt3 isn't straightforward, they have balance of performance which makes engine choice for supra based off COMPLETELY different parameters, wants and needs than whats best in a road car, the b58 is a fucking road car engine and isn't developed for gt3 because bmw uses p58. Use your brain.
Bmws weak plastic components i already said is mostly cost cutting and weight/emissions fiddling as opposed to anything else, it sucks, but all the ancillary parts arent made by bmw, but bosch, rheinmetal, pierburg, mann etc so yeah if they fail its on them. Most last a bloody long time and they are renowned for quality.
Things like rust proofing is done as standard in some markets so that depends, again i agree it should be everywhere but toyota and japanese brands are guilty of egregious fails with engines and costcutting too, its just too broad a spectrum to say one is superior to the other.
All manufacturers have these issues...
"In what is arguably the biggest blow to the "Japan Quality" reputation in decades, a massive safety testing scandal broke wide open, involving Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha, following a deep-dive investigation into Toyota’s subsidiary, Daihatsu.
The Offense: Government investigators found that these manufacturers had been systematically falsifying data, cutting corners, or manipulating vehicles to pass crash and safety certifications."
" Toyota built its empire on the legendary durability of its V8 and naturally aspirated engines. However, its shift to the V35A 3.4-liter twin-turbo V6—used in the 2022–2024 Toyota Tundra, Lexus LX 600, and 2024 Lexus GX 550—turned into a logistical and mechanical nightmare.
The Defect: Due to a massive blunder during the manufacturing process, machining debris (metal shavings) wasn't properly cleared out of the engine blocks before assembly.
The Consequence: Under load, these loose metal shavings migrate into the engine's main bearings, causing severe bearing wear, engine knocking, sudden power loss, or complete engine seizure while driving at highway speeds "
See, i can chatgpt too. They all fuckup every now and then. Japanese cars haven't been the paragon of reliability for a LONG time. You have fallen for marketing.
windmill09@reddit
Um ok? What about what I typed looked ChatGPT? It's obviously not because I write like shit lol I referenced those lawsuits because I'm a litigation attorney and I know those specific suits and you can just Google those words to find the exact cases I'm referencing without me being blocked by outside links.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say that is different than what was already said. I wasn't aware of a high performance V6 turbo from Lexus. All their high performance vehicles are V8s. We are talking about "high performance" right? Those class action suits I referenced involve all the high performance and regular consumer vehicles.
What are you even trying to say about racing? Toyota took the B58 OUT of their race car for a reason. Had it been capable, would it not make sense to modify whats available rather than do a complete engine swap?
I think you're trying to find things to argue at this point and you're being quite rude about it as well. I think I've been reasonable enough to mention that BMW does make some super cool sports cars yet that is not enough for you and you seem to want me to say something else although no one knows what that is. Take care and enjoy your "high performance" BMW.
highersense@reddit
You are totally changing the nature of the conversation. How else am i meant to get across my exasperation? Im not trying to be mean but how is what you've said about gt3 cars relevant at all? Its not.
If you are a litigation attorney you know that japanese manufacturers have just as many, just as serious recalls all the time too, selectively choosing a few from german cars is reductive, they ALL have these kinds of issues. It doesnt make japanese cars superior because bmw had an oil filter recall or Mercedes a rust recall when toyota has shit the bed with many engines etc. It just means engineering and production is hard.
I just picked any japanese brands as you picked any German, why do i have to give specific v8 examples from specifically lexus? Here are some specific lexus v8 examples to prove nobody is faultless.
"The Valve Spring Recall (2010)- This is arguably the most severe mechanical recall in Lexus history. It affected the early UR-series V8 engines—specifically the 4.6L (1UR-FSE) in the LS 460 and GS 460, and the 5.0L (2UR-GSE) in the IS F
The Fault: Microscopic foreign contaminants got into the steel alloy during the valve spring manufacturing process. Over time, the springs could develop micro-cracks and snap. The Consequence: If a valve spring broke while driving, it caused severe engine rattling, sudden stalling, or catastrophic internal engine failure if the valve dropped into the cylinder. Lexus had to tear down thousands of high-end V8s under warranty to replace the entire valve spring set. "
Fuel Pressure Sensor & Fuel Leak Recalls (2014 & 2018) Affecting the direct-injection V8s (1UR and 2UR engines in the LS 460, GS 460, and IS F), this issue went through a couple of iterations.
The Fault: The sealing gaskets where the fuel pressure sensor attached to the delivery pipe could degrade. In later iterations of the recall, it was discovered that the plating on the fuel delivery pipes could allow fuel to seep past the gasket.
The Consequence: High-pressure fuel could leak directly into the engine bay, creating a severe fire hazard."
" . The Denso Fuel Pump Impeller Recall (2020) This wasn't exclusive to V8s, but it heavily impacted them. It was a massive global recall covering millions of Toyota and Lexus vehicles, including the LX 570 (3UR-FE), RC F, GS F, and LC 500 (2UR-GSE).
The Fault: The low-pressure fuel pump supplied by Denso contained a plastic impeller that was exposed to solvent drying during manufacturing, causing it to absorb fuel and deform over time.
The Consequence: The deformed impeller would jam against the pump housing, causing the fuel pump to fail completely, instantly stalling the vehicle at highway speeds. "
I didnt mention racing at all, you did, mentioning race cars when we are talking about road car reliability is like discussing what summer weather clothing is best while we are standing in antartica, they have totally different environments and rules and parameters to go by.
B58 is a road car engine, a race car engine needs totally different, very expensive development done to it like dry sump, internals revision etc, considering bmw have the p58 they aren't doing anything to make a b58 race worthy and so toyota who dont even make the damn thing had to look elsewhere.
Also note that the toyota GR gt3 car will be using a 4L twin turbo, so the old high disp 5.4 naturally aspirated engine isnt good enough either.
I'm simply responding to your assertions that japanese cars are somehow more reliable inherrently, they bloody well aren't, manufacturers make cost cutting and mistakes everywhere no matter from Germany or japan, most of components arent even built by them and that the german cars that do have issues are usually pushing the envelope of what a road car can be vs a commuter car like most jap cars.
I like both and im not TRYING to be rude, just keep you from diverging into complete irrelevancy, you're the one who is looking for things to chip german cars and be negative about them. Ironically guilty of what you say im doing. I didnt even mention japanese reliability, you did?!
windmill09@reddit
I'll keep my response short. Lexus, IME, deals with recalls differently. They are proactive vs. reactive. I've never heard of anyone needing the fuel pump recall, but they are doing it anyways. My 2015 RCF actually has the fuel pump recall, which is great for me, but I've never known anyone that ever had an issue to begin with. I am excited to get a brand new fuel pump tho. In comparison, with German companies, you need to file a class action suit against German brands for them to admit something is wrong.
AGAIN, we are talking about racing. We are talking about it because you say the N55/B58 are high performance engines therefore they must require many repairs because high performance engines require constant repairs due to excessive wear and tear. AGAIN, the original argument was that there are high performance vehicles that have more credibility as high performance engines that don't require extensive repair and maintenance. The fact that the 2UR is being replaced is irrelevant. The point was the N55 was not a more high performance engine than the 2UR and the 2UR doesn't require much repair and maintenance compared to a pedestrian N55 engine..
highersense@reddit
Thats just not true, german companies will proactively recall to avoid expensive liabilities too. Not all the time but some of the time, do you not remember how toyota famously voided warrantys for their gr cars because they went over a certain speed? You're full of selective bias.
No. High performance ROAD engine does not equal RACING engine. The two are distinctly different.
I didn't say n55/b58 need many repairs, simply that they have tight tolerances and their ancillaries xost more and may fail more frequently due to it vs a standard low hp commuter car.
Your assertion that a rcf engine, which is totally different due to being a 5L N/A higher displacement engine is somehow superior than an an engine smaller and turboed because it needs less maintenance and therefore japanese > german reliability is like comparing chalk and cheese.
They AREN'T THE SAME, naturally aspirated will nearly always win a reliability comparison vs turboed as theres simply less complexity and hardware, in performance terms a b58/n55 leaves an rcf engine for dust because of weight, packaging and powerband in any arena you tune or turbo it for. The cars can be significantly lighter than an rcf and have more area under the curve and higher peak power... because they are turbo charged.
But its never gonna win the reliability argument, becauae its more complex, thats very obvious and why n52 owners enjoy their engines too.
windmill09@reddit
Yup that's why I want a turbo car as a tuner car too to pair with a V8. However, I'm discussing reliability and I replaced parts every couple months on my N55 after it reached 55k miles. I've never done that with any other car I've ever owned. I've never even needed to replace a water pump in any of my Japanese cars, yet my N55 and Porsche 987 needed it (which was NA). I haven't even needed to replace anything on the RCF in 11 years.
You say BMWs have tighter tolerances. I say they need tighter tolerances because they are lower quality.
highersense@reddit
Ok... But that can be from many reasons such as poor ownership maintenance, early year of production, weather and environmental etc, the parts you mention are simply getting to end of their servxie life too.
The water pump specifically has a MUCH harder life and job to do in those cars than the one in the rcf 😂 because turbocharged.
They have tighter tolerances because they are a completely different producr and approach and there is more to go wrong. You are simply not accounting for that very obvious fact. A n/a engine creates less heat, dur.
windmill09@reddit
Whatever man. The N55 still requires tons of repairs even on stock power (which mine was). 300 HP cars have been around for decades and plenty of cars can manage 300 HP without constant breakdowns. Low quality is low quality no matter how you try to justify it.
highersense@reddit
You boiling an extremely nuanced thing down to "japanese better" is moronic.
The hp figure is a meaningless red herring you are clinging to, nobody who understands car mechanics looks at peak hp and thats it, they look at torque, weight, area under curve etc. Its not low quality because your shit broke, theres many logical reasons between why your specific n55 was shit and others aren't, or why your specific n55 and your specific rcf have had different ownership experiences for reliability.
I've done my best to help you understand, but you don't WANT to understand. You just have a weird fixation on "german bad, japanese good". You've been schooled on every point you've made and you flit from one thing to the next in some desperate attempt to salvage some kind of ego victory.
If you really are a litigation expert then you know you are being disingenuous surely with your style of argument.
windmill09@reddit
I'm fixating on Japanese. I'm fixating on your original point.
The statement you made was high performance = high repairs. Again, not true. The N55 could be powered by a mini nuclear power plant, but if it makes the same power than other high performance cars and requires more repairs, you would still be wrong. Other high performance cars do not require the repairs of a nuclear powered car.
highersense@reddit
No, i didn't. I said a high performance car has tighter tolerances and more complex things than your average commuter car. That doesn't mean it has to be less reliable, but its understandable when components fails at 10+ years old and 60k+ miles because of that.
Yes they do, plenty of engines that are far more problematic than the n55 exist, the actual engine is solid its just the ancillaries you have issue with, wheras gr yaris and other recent Japanese engines have actual structural and manufacturing defects themselves, MUCH worse than a waterpump dieing after 10 years.
You have totally lost the plot and shown ineptitude with that example, a classic example of false equivalence. Im not arguing that at all. Im explaining you need to have the mechanics in mind to have a reasonable expectation of what the lifespan of a component can be.
if it's a highly stressed turbo or rotary engine it cant be expected to last as long as a huge displacement lazy n/a. They are living different lives. That doesn't mean japanese or german is superior, it's simply comparing two totally different platforms and living conditions.
It would just be stupid to say "turbo engine is bad, look at my n/a engine! Still original water pump! " when comparing the two, they have different operating conditions and advantages.
In that same school of thought, If a water pump is made to work in far harder conditions in one engine than another, its only logical it may give up sooner. You cant say the water pump is shit, it had a harder life.
windmill09@reddit
You say a lot of words to end up in the same conclusion. Thanks take care.
highersense@reddit
Glad you finally understand that Inherrent mechanical differences between different types of engines are obviously going to result in different reliability and service lives for certain components. Whether, german, japanese or anywhere else they come from.
Got there in the end!
windmill09@reddit
Yes some high performance cars are more reliable than other cars because one company decided to use cheap plastic components in an extremely hot engine compartment. I won't say which brand because you will get triggered. Take care.
highersense@reddit
Again, this is a n/a vs turbo design difference, Japanese manufacturers also use these plastics you so hate in their turbocharged applications. You simply are uneducated in mechanics and so here is a short explanation that will explain why BOTH lexus/toyota and bmw use them. The fact your n/a engine doesnt is because it doesnt need to. Because N/A and turbo engines are different.
"Once Toyota and Lexus transitioned away from naturally aspirated engines and fully embraced modern turbocharging, they had to adopt the exact same thermal management strategies as BMW. When you add forced induction, engine bay temperatures skyrocket. If you use metal intake components, they absorb that heat (heat soak) and transfer it into the air going into the engine, which robs horsepower.
To solve this, modern Toyota and Lexus turbo engines rely heavily on high-heat engineering plastics. Here are the most prominent examples:
Plastic Intake Manifolds with Integrated Intercoolers: Just like BMW, Lexus abandoned traditional metal intake runners. The V35A-FTS uses two massive plastic intake surge tanks (one for each cylinder bank). Inside these plastic housings are integrated liquid-to-air intercoolers. The plastic acts as a critical thermal barrier, preventing the blazing heat of the engine bay from warming up the freshly cooled air before it hits the cylinders.
Plastic Valve Covers: The upper valve covers are made of composite plastics to save weight at the very top of the engine, helping lower the center of gravity in these heavy SUVs and flagship sedans.
The homologation-special 1.6L 3-cylinder turbo is a masterclass in motorsport lightweighting, and plastics play a huge role in its power-to-weight ratio.
Plastic Intake Manifold: The factory intake manifold is made from a high-strength composite plastic. In a tiny engine bay packed with a high-boost turbocharger, a metal manifold would instantly heat-soak. The plastic manifold keeps the intake charge dense and cold. (Note: Because it is PLASTIC, aftermarket tuners pushing the car beyond 40+ PSI of boost often have to SWAP IT for billet aluminum to prevent it from bursting).
Plastic Valve Cover: To shave top-end weight and lower the center of gravity for rally homologation, the G16E-GTS uses a high-temp plastic valve cover rather than aluminum.
3. Lexus 2.0L & 2.4L Turbo 4-Cylinders (8AR-FTS & T24A-FTS)
These are the workhorse turbo engines of the modern Lexus lineup, and they utilize plastics throughout their cooling and air delivery systems.
Glass-Fiber-Reinforced Plastic Intakes: Both engines utilize specialized plastic intake manifolds to smooth out airflow and reduce thermal transfer.
Plastic Cooling Components: Because turbocharged engines require highly complex coolant routing to keep the turbo bearings alive, Toyota uses engineering plastics for the water bypass housings and thermostat housings. Molding these complex water channels out of plastic is vastly more efficient and lighter than casting them out of aluminum.
The Takeaway: When Lexus builds a high-revving, naturally aspirated V8 (like the RC F), they use exotic metals to handle acoustic resonance and mechanical stress. But the moment they bolt on a turbocharger (like the GR Yaris or LS 500), they immediately switch to the "BMW playbook"—using advanced plastics to fight heat and reduce weight.
4: GR Supra -
"Because the Supra uses BMW's B58 inline-six engine, it features the exact same high-heat engineering plastics BMW uses. This includes a glass-fiber-reinforced plastic intake manifold with an integrated water-to-air intercooler, a plastic valve cover, and a plastic oil pan. "
So as you can see, Both companies employ this strategy for turbocharged engines, here is why:
Why BMW uses plastic (Thermal Management)-
For a turbocharged engine like the B58 (used in the Supra and M-lites), managing extreme heat is the primary challenge. Engineering plastics act as an excellent thermal insulator. A plastic intake manifold prevents the scorching heat of the engine block from transferring into the intake air. Cooler, denser air means more power. Plastic also significantly reduces weight and manufacturing costs.
Why Lexus uses metal (Acoustics and Rigidity)
For a naturally aspirated engine like the 2UR-GSE, airflow and acoustics are everything. The Lexus V8 uses a complex acoustic induction system that changes the effective length of the intake manifold depending on RPM.
Hopefully you are now freed of your bias through the miracle of education. You're welcome.
windmill09@reddit
No one gives a sht dude. At the end of the day, a 300hp BMW is unreliable. A 300hp Lexus is reliable. No one gives a sht how is done. If it's unreliable, it's engineered wrong. There's a way to do it better. Simple AF.
highersense@reddit
Hahaha 🤣 look how flustered you are now that i successfully rebuked every point you made, instead of admit defeat and be like " damn, i didnt know lexus used exactly the same plastic parts too, i was wrong!" you show your true character flaws to yourself.
You haven't a leg to stand on, every goal post you move i still score.
This should be a moment of self reflection for you. Look at how pathetic you are and your response is. Embarrassing.
The lexus/toyota engines mentioned are actually more unreliable, have had more major faults and recalls, thats one reason among many why the gr supra used a bmw engine and not a shitty lexus or toyota one. Look what happens when they do, they aren't as good at it.
You simply dont want to admit reality because its at odds with your misguided world view.
Shameful way to converse for a supposed litigation expert, nobody knows everything and so you should pride yourself on being able to acknowledge when you are wrong rather than be embarrassed again and again by persistent doubling down on a topic you simply don't understand.
Its ok to be wrong. It's how you handle it that is the real measure of character.
windmill09@reddit
You're extremely weird. You still cant overcome the point that there are high performance vehicles that don't require constant replacement of parts so you type a ton of stuff to go on tangents when you could have just agreed and you would have moved on with the rest of your life.
dirtydrew26@reddit
Apparently Euro auto plastic is just a different spec than Japanese plastic due to European environmental regulations. Thats less the fault of German manufacturers and more the fault of the government bodies themselves.
Also what youre missing is that BMW engines run hot across the board compared to literally any other manufacturer. Thats not a good environment for the longevity of plastic.
Warm_Objective4162@reddit
That right there is the point most people don’t understand- they see a normal wear part go bad (like a water pump) and mark the car off as “unreliable”. Euro car un-reliability is really just “high performance items have a short lifespan and need to be replaced”.
windmill09@reddit
It's not that it's "high performance items" wearing out, it is plastic wearing out. I just don't see plastic as a high performance material. Water and fuel pumps fail early due to the plastic casings breaking. Cooling systems and chargepipes are breaking because it's all plastic. My RCF has never need a repair in over 11 years and I regularly powerslide it and bang off the rev limiter. No one is going to convince me that a 330i or 340i is more high performance than an RCF which is raced in GT3.
Matt_Moto_93@reddit
Dont conflate your road-going car with the version that shares a similar shillouette and is raced. The two vehicles are absolutly not the same.
windmill09@reddit
No one is. This commentor said high performance cars necessarily require constant replacement of parts. I'm using an RCF as an example that it is not true. Then he goes on a tangent about it's because the N55 is turbo charged. Well, the N55 requires tons of repairs even on stock power. 300 HP cars have been around for decades and plenty of cars can manage 300 HP without constant breakdowns.
highersense@reddit
Its amazing how you pick a hypothesis and then stick with it regardless of how much its explained to you.
You simply dont want to understand or admit the engineering differences between platforms and the different stresses and price points they have to come in at, the fact that depending on the age and manufacturer of that specific part (bosch/pierberg) that everything has a service life.
A brand new waterpump designed today will last longer than a brand new one designed in 2007. A cheaper waterpump will not last as long as a more expensive one.
A car that has turbocharging will need a better waterpump or it will die quicker, this is all very easy and logical to understand but rather than just accept the reality of engineering and product design you parrot the inane and misguided notion that japanese is superior to german.
I don't know how much clearer things could have been made for you. You are simply ignorant.
windmill09@reddit
The statement you made was high performance = high repairs. Again, not true. The N55 could be powered by a mini nuclear power plant, but if it makes less power than other high performance cars and requires a ton of repairs, you would still be wrong.
highersense@reddit
No, i didn't. I said a high performance car has tighter tolerances and more complex things than your average commuter car. That doesn't mean it has to be less reliable, but its understandable when components fails at 10+ years old and 60k+ miles because of that.
There is also many very poorly designed average commuter cars that are more unreliable than these high performance cars, due to poor manufacturing and cost cutting to a fault, but that isnt the n55.
Your complaint with it is with shit like water pumps etc, which are ancillaries not even made by bmw. Thats why i had to painstakingly explain the difference.
It doesn't require a ton of repairs, especially not for its age/mileage and performance. Once again, making less headline horsepower than your rcf is irrelevant, it makes significantly more torque low down, which is a lot more stress. You dont understand the difference between the two engines and platforms and thats why you can't get your head around it.
windmill09@reddit
You say a lot of words to end up in the same conclusion. Thanks take care.
highersense@reddit
Glad you finally understand that Inherrent mechanical differences between different types of engines are obviously going to result in different reliability and service lives for certain components. Whether, german, japanese or anywhere else they come from.
Got there in the end!
windmill09@reddit
Yes some high performance cars are more reliable than other cars because one company decided to use cheap plastic components in an extremely hot engine compartment. I won't say which brand because you will get triggered. Take care.
Willing_Sink_3623@reddit
all n55's suffer from premature rod bearing failure. they all have the same e-shafts and bearings. they all have the same valve cover, the same ofhg, etc.
highersense@reddit
No they don't theres many examples of moon mile n55 with rod bearings in good or perfect condition ams very few with rod bearing issues. Any engine has examples that get abused or fail but its not a common issue.
Valve cover and ofhg are WEAR ITEMS, over enough time and miles any car needs replacing them.
Willing_Sink_3623@reddit
i was there for the first n55 deliveries as well as the last, they fail. it is the second most replaced engine i have ever seen at any dealership, only second to the n63(we used to stock them), but tbf i have never worked at a subaru or korean dealer. it was a slow burn, we thought that thing was good for nearly a decade, save for the occasional e shaft issues. now, i would rather own an ej25 swapped 1986 jag.
highersense@reddit
Your anecdotal experience flies in the face of reliability data and known faults, while certainly not as reliable as an n52 they aren't that bad.
Gasket leaks (OFHG/VCG) and electric water pump degradation is all it's known for. Admittedly it should have come with a crank guard to prevent issues with serp belt ingestion just in case too.
A decade later will always present issues however, because ownership maintenance and servicing is often neglected, done improperly and with cheap or wrong parts and oil. Looked after they are above average reliability. Not the most reliable ever made by a long shot, but good. (especially 2012+ model years)
Willing_Sink_3623@reddit
Your half baked internet numbers(all german motors stands to make a ton of money on that engine) flies in the face of what is actually going on. Explain away your crap bucket, don't care, the n55 is a turd either way. Thumbs up homie, you will learn, they all do.
highersense@reddit
? What
I provided data and reasoning, you provided feelings and anecdotes.
Why are you so mad? N55 is actually incredible because of many performance reasons that would completely pass you by as you don't understand a thing about performance cars clearly, just parroted useless tripe.
Thumbs down homie, you clearly can't hace a well reasoned discussion. Hope you have a better day tomorrow.
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
Agreed. And doing this replacement means it'll be fine for another 100,000 miles.
disallow@reddit (OP)
So you would be confident to buy a bmw or an audi with low mileage (15K miles) and sell it in a few years at around 70K miles?
That's kinda oddly funny because my friend has these problems with his bmw, not all but I recognize a few: valve cover, oil filter gasket, some other plastic tubes, low pressure. His car is at 95K miles. His car is from 2018 though I think.
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
The expense of buying a 15,000 mile one and selling it at 70,000 miles will be the difference between "it is basically new!" and "WINTER IS COMING."
Instead of finding a German car / BMW specialist and paying them $5,000 to do all the oil and coolant stuff, you'll be buying a $60,000 car that only costs $45,000, and you'll be selling it for $20,000 (or trading it in for $15,000 off whatever you buy next) even while it still smells new inside. And it's the person who buys it as the third owner who has to find the local BMW shop to do the work on it, or they have to dig into the internet and figure out how to do that stuff themselves (<- I am here.)
fatalrip@reddit
Me too, pretty much all older German cars. Once you have all the etorx and random special wrench’s you need there are a lot of pieces but most things are pretty logical.
I have a soft spot for the m112 and m113 engines though. M52 and m54 are great too though.
FLOHTX@reddit
From 15-70K, it'll be fine most of the time. Plastic tends to warp and become brittle over time, so you may come across a couple things that need attention but hopefully nothing catastrophic to your wallet.
SummerNo6878@reddit
I drove a 2021 Bmw M440i and that thing was built like a tank. Had it for 3 years, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but the B58 engine and Transmission were built quality.
Big_Fat_Pig@reddit
Its easy to say a car is reliable when its only 6 years old.
BabyIllustrious1576@reddit
Modern BMWs ARE way more reliable than older ones, especially the engines/transmissions. But “reliable for a BMW” and “reliable like a Toyota” are still two different worlds lol.
Usually it’s not the engine exploding anymore, it’s more random sensors, cooling parts, oil leaks, plastics, electronics, stuff like that once the car gets older. Nothing insane individually… but the bills add up REAL fast
Moreburrtitos22@reddit
Probably going to be an unpopular opinion, but as a mechanic, I’m seeing way more new Toyotas than bmws for non-collision related services in the past few years.
Reliability also depends a ton on maintenance.
That 400,000 mile Corolla has had 75% of its parts replaced in its life time, but at normal service intervals.
When you neglect maintenance no car is reliable. Except a ford ranger and any gen 3 5.3 SUV/truck. Those things live off of sawdust and marmalade
SailingSpark@reddit
Until recently, with a few exceptions, one of the reasons Toyota was so reliable was that their engines were understressed and over built. With the need for tighter emissions, better economy, and higher power, those days are over.
seckarr@reddit
That is very much not true. Toyota hybrids still use the (almost) same 2.5L engine for the camry and 1.8/2.0 for corollas.
schmiddc@reddit
I’m seeing way more new Toyotas than bmws for non-collision related services in the past few years.
I'd hope so, conserving Toyota sells over 2.5 million cars a year in the north American market, and BMW sells around 400k (including mini)
Moreburrtitos22@reddit
You know what, that’s an absolutely fair point. I did not take that into consideration.
WeinerBarf420@reddit
Plus keep in mind that in a modern car, random sensors and electronics going out can make just the car just as undrivable as engine problems
Willing_Sink_3623@reddit
bmw reliability peaked in 1999, they have continuously made less reliable engines as time moves on. the m54 engine block was cast with packing peanuts, you could shave chunks off it with a used razor blade. the n55 suffers from rod bearing failure, even if you maintain it. the n63 is a well documented snafu. the n52 was a solid engine but was a snooze to drive and got less than desirable mpg. the n20 is a trainwreck. the b58 locks up enough this early in its life cycle that i place it on the no buy list. the m engines all have terminal design flaws. the b48's have all been overheated by now. the mini cooper engine lineup has been a disaster also. not sure why people think modern bmw engines are reliable. from 1996 until recently you could not get an lsd in a non m model, which is a huge thumbs down. they have not improved their manual trans shifter design in 40 years, and it was never great. i could go on, but look up germany's laws regarding recyclables(as well as the resulting changes in plastic chemistry) and it will make more sense.
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
"Reliable" yes. "Low maintenance" no. And those are two very different things, that a lot of people conflate. A HORSE is reliable, but if you don't feed it every day, it will die.
BMWs use a lot of plastic parts in the cooling system. Plastic doesn't last forever, especially when it gets hot and cold and hot and cold and hot and cold. Think about putting a chicken tender in the oven and cooking it, and then letting it cool, and then warming it up again. Twice a day. For five years.
So modern BMWs use plastic pipes and hose fittings, and it all needs to be replaced, and that's expensive.
The first part to need replacing in a modern BMW is a plastic chunk called the "oil filter housing." If you guessed "that's where the oil filter mounts to" then you get a gold star. It looks like this: https://www.fcpeuro.com/public/assets/products/612904/large/BMW-11428596283.jpg?1706216298
You can see where it has that complicated bunch of passages all meet the block. That's because it has a heat exchanger and it has both hot oil AND hot coolant running through it; it looks like this on the other side: https://www.fcpeuro.com/public/assets/products/738253/large/HEN-H811H.jpg?1760033696
These cars, the thermostat stays closed until the engine coolant is pretty well warmed up, so it warms up pretty quickly. That warm coolant goes to this heat exchanger and warms up the oil quickly, because that's best for emissions and fuel economy and for engine longevity and turbo longevity. And, it lets this coolant COOL the engine oil when the engine is working pretty hard, because that's better for oil longevity, which is also better for the engine and the turbo. My 2018 3-series has a computer that tells me "11,000 miles" to the next oil change. I'm not waiting that long, but that's the kind of benefit you get from a complicated-ass piece of gear like this, in an engine that has a turbo.
And THAT is part of how you get a 250 hp car (330i) that will go 0-60 in the FIVES like Corvettes used to not long ago, that will also get 36 mpg on the highway. Or, that's how you get a 375 hp version of that car that will go 0-60 in the THREES, like NOTHING used to not long ago, and get 32 mpg on the highway.
However, oil is bad for plastic, especially hot oil, and so that big plastic chunk - where hot coolant runs through part of it and hot oil runs through another part of it, all at high pressure - gets brittle and begins to leak. This seems to be the first part of these cars to let go, and I've seem youtube videos showing these cars leaking coolant out the bottom at \~100,000 miles.
My replacement one is aluminum, and we'll see if this upcoming US holiday 3-day weekend is enough time for me to get under the car and get it installed. I gave up over Thanksgiving because I didn't want to separate the hose connector up front to drain the coolant, but I have a new tool that should do that without breaking anything that I'll try out. Fingers crossed, otherwise I'm ordering at least two new hoses in addition.
Disastrous-Group3390@reddit
Extremely well said! I remember in the mid ‘90s/early ‘00s when a used ‘90-93 Accord was the same price used as a similar age 750il, and people with no particular knowledge were buying the $3k BMWs. I STILL see those Accords fairly regularly; the Bimmers not so much. If I do see one, it’s in a poor neighborhood and they’re cutting the grass around it because it won’t move under its own power.
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
In the late 90s, I passed on a $5,000 750iL V12 with a driveline noise and a $10,000 E28 M5 with a coolant leak. I don't regret either choice. (I might kinda regret passing on the $11,500 E-type 2+2 and on the $15,000 Mondial.)
Disastrous-Group3390@reddit
You may have dodged more bullets than you can imagine!!
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
I wound up with a ‘94 XJ12 sedan, so I managed to catch at least some of the bullets.
disallow@reddit (OP)
Such a thorough response, thank you! Seems like a lot of this can be prevention-repair if it's known to break. Do Audis use this much plastic?
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
They do, and Audis are a bit more crowded in the engine bay so they frighten me. Lovely to look at inside & out, but I'm scared of them.
So, having put an exciting and story-filled 26,000 miles on a 2001 BMW convertible I bought cheap at 174,000 miles, I have gone with a second BMW. We'll see how that works out.
disallow@reddit (OP)
The used car market right now is on hell fire, can't touch anything because it's so damn expensive.
useful_tool30@reddit
They'll never be japanese reliable. It's just how theyre designed. 5 years is basically new still. Shouldn't have to be replacing things
ict7070@reddit
I’m on my 11th BMW now (I’ve owned them on and off since 1996). The last few (F80, G20, G20, G20, G26) have been a bit more reliable than the first few. I’m only a sample of one though.
Bob-Roman@reddit
People buy BMW primarily for driving experience, luxury, status, and image.
Reliability for most folks is the car starts up and runs right when I want to go somewhere.
I can assure you one thing it costs a lot less to own and operate Hyundai,Toyota, or Honda than BMW.
Content-Insect-8770@reddit
"past 2020" means we've only seen 6-7 calendar years and very few past 120k miles/190k km when things breaking usually start adding up. You need to wait 10+ years to really determine reliability. Until then it's largely extrapolating based on a few high-mileage examples which may not be representative.
All automakers can F up - many times represented by an 'innovation' or 'improvement' (chasing efficiency/power/convenience/weight-reduction, etc) that has long-term unforeseen consequences.
Disastrous-Group3390@reddit
Sometimes they DO foresee, they just don’t care.
Peds12@reddit
No....
Aggressive_Ask89144@reddit
Modern BMWs fixed a lot of their cruxes but it's still a fancy German car chocked full of overpriced plastic parts and pretty thin gaskets for the rather hot operating inlines.
They're pretty fair cars especially if you treat them well and do preventive maintenance instead of waiting till failure. They're also a lot less painful (depends on the model and all, of course) than VAG to work on. You can actually replace things on them without resorting to "service position" a.k.a taking the whole front end off lol. Mercedes isn't too bad either too as they often got some solid powertrains, but they get real fancy, real complex and take a demanding amount of speciality tools and what not and people tend to neglect their very expensive suspensions. Bimmers are mostly gaskets and hoses and the timing on older and miled ones.
revocer@reddit
BMW, very reliable, but also very maintenance heavy.
Toyota / Honda, historically very reliable, not as maintenance heavy as BMW.
ruraljurorrrrrrrrrr@reddit
They are way more reliable but still very expensive to maintain and fix. That being said, even commuter cars are getting expensive to fix. Cars are not nearly as serviceable as they used to be. Headlights didn’t used to be $1500 parts on your base level cars.
Tobazz@reddit
Pretty much any car will be decently reliable these days. Bmws got a bad rap from people buying neglected 20 year old high mileage and owner cars that have never once been maintained lmao
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
I've had less issues (zero in fact) with my m240 than I did my civic type r.
I wouldn't expect Toyota reliability but there are a lot more unreliable brands than BMW these days.
The_Tipsy_Turner@reddit
I've had less issues with my 335is than with my WRX, My sisters Altimas(x3), or my partners Dart, Focus, or Avenger. I guess sometimes we're just dealt good hands.
Weary-Astronaut1335@reddit
Toyota reliability these days means hundreds of thousands of engines recalled, or buying engines from BMW.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
Yeah I think every brand has issues. Generalizing brands is just settting up for disappointment. Better to recommend models
The new Tacoma has some crazy issues thus far for example but a Nissan frontier is a solid ass truck. But no one would ever argue Nissan has better overall reliability than Toyota
Weary-Astronaut1335@reddit
Toyota recently got caught falsifying crash safety results too.
Pretty sure Nissan doesn't even need to do tests anymore with how best to shit I've seen Altimas while still being driveable.
disallow@reddit (OP)
How is the car in general? I assume you mostly drive alone since a 2 door is very impractical for back passangers or anything.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
I only use the backseat for my dog or cargo yeah
Its a great car. Super fast and fun without sacrificing comfort for daily driving. Its exactly what I wanted. MPG is surprisingly good for road trips too
ClickKlockTickTock@reddit
B58 is less reliable than N52 and M54 and costs more to maintain/fix.
Bmws transmissions have always been "okay" if maintained and can last hundreds of thousands of miles.
They still have really big miss engines that bring the brand down though.
People just all of a sudden see the B58 with its hp and reliability and think things have improved when they've had commuter car engines that were plenty reliable.
Adventurous-Depth984@reddit
Even older ones are fine.
If you drive a Corolla s the exact same way someone drives a 340, it’s going to be a piece of shit.
I’ll die on this hill.
Scazitar@reddit
Yes. Modern BMWs are pretty reliable luxury cars.
But it is with the disclaimer that it's reliable for a luxury car. You're averaging matientence expensive will still probably be double that of the non-luxury brand. If you go in with that already in mind, they are solid.
Old_Crow_Yukon@reddit
The entire idea of "reliable for a luxury car" is a farce to me. Part of what I find luxurious is a car that doesn't break and a business relationship with a car company that's not constantly picking my pocket. I don't find being provided a courtesy car a luxury - not needing the courtesy car in the first place is the luxury.
Which brings us to Lexus...
user_9780@reddit
Its still less reliable by any crunchy 90' car
pumpymcpumpface@reddit
Theyve gotten a lot better in reliability. But, the cost of repairs is as painful as it always was, especially when the modern tech parts break.
SnoopNL@reddit
Modern BMWs are very reliable. If you drain your bank account into them when the thing beeps and throws an error code.
Joking aside: no. They are not reliable.
Gods_ShadowMTG@reddit
Very reliable. Also have a look at statistics, BMW does perform well everywhere but of course it's recommended to have regular service schedules to check.
jestem-lama@reddit
Their motors are a bit hit or miss. You get some that will obliterate themselves after 150kkm and there are some that will get 350kkm with only oil changes.
Also it's common that making a very small modification can extend the lifespan, like swirl flaps delete on M47, installing better quality timing chain tensioner on early N47, deleting egr, etc.
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
Nah, if anything - their most reliable motors aren't made anymore.
Even then, their best motors are pretty highly stressed.
If you want a high power option, the B58 is a beast.