The way the aircrafts interacted in the air felt like the usual physics glitch between two jets colliding in GTA V and getting stuck on each other's collision geometry while flailing helplessly in the air.
The scissor offset between the two cockpits that allowed the bottom crew to not reenact Top Gun 1 is nothing short of a miracle. Happy for everyone involved, but not sure what to say about the decision to unnecessarily risk Growlers (no longer manufactured) for an air show. That's a lot of money American tax payers just pissed down the toilet.
They don't make Growlers any more, and Growlers are a fair bit more expensive than a Super Hornet. u/Scared-Housing-2334 is implying that there is no reason to risk the limited supply of the more expensive Growlers when the more plentiful and "cheaper" Super Hornets would do just as well.
I understand the (lack of) supply. What I’m getting at is specifically risk management. Does participating in air shows create more risk per flying hour than normal training flights? Just because the planes aren’t flying for show doesn’t mean they’re not flying at all.
There are other planes that we have made more of that don't fill such a niche role that could have been used. Risking planes that are no longer manufactured AND fill a specialized role is a significant risk, because if you lose one (or two) there's no replacement in the pipeline.
I get the supply. I’m talking inherent risk from flying. Everything has an inherent risk, and it’s everyone’s goal to bring that as low as reasonably possible. These planes were going to be flying no matter what because the pilots need to get their flight time, so you cannot just say there is zero risk if they don’t participate.
So, does flying at an air show have significantly more risk than flying a different training mission? All their maneuvers are well within the limits of the air frame, the pilot, and the flight area (proximity to ground). Accidents can happen on any flight type.
I did. Google returns results about spectator safety, precision aerobatics (Thunderbirds / Blue Angles) and the more daredevil type aerobatics. Not much in regards to the tactical demonstration teams. There also doesn’t seem to be anything public that tracks accidents or mishaps per hour flown for routine training and demo hours. So that is why it is an open question.
From this angle it looks to me like the Sidewainder rail on the tip of the left wing of the top jet might have hooked under the wing of the lower one, which would go some way to explaining how they seemed to lock together.
The way the aircrafts interacted in the air felt like the physics glitching between two jets colliding in GTA V and getting stuck on each other's collision geometry while flailing helplessly in the air. Surreal. For a moment I thought they'd untangle and continue flying, hah.
Yeah, if I had to guess, almost like some sort of weird boundary layer effect, like they got caught in the disturbed air coming off the other jet which caused their control surfaces to stall out and for them to behave like one object aerodynamically.
The way the aircrafts interacted in the air felt like the physics glitching between two jets colliding in GTA V and getting stuck on each other's collision geometry while flailing helplessly in the air.
I've definitely done something like this in GTA multiple times when I'm losing a dogfight and decide to just go for the ramming kill. It's surreal to see it happen in real life. It just doesn't seem like that kind of interaction should be possible in the real world.
The tragic crash of an F-86 Sabre jet (Col. Jack Rosamond) at the 1997 Air Show Colorado at Broomfield, June 1, 1997, which gained widespread infamy due to being heavily featured on the 1990s television program Real TV.
I think most ejections result in some injury to the pilot, especially their spine, since they’re propelled out of the plane at like 18G’s and whiplashed against the air going however fast their plane is going. I think it’s safe to say they all survived and “okay”, but they may suffer lifelong pain or may not be able to pilot a plane again.
I also heard they were in 'stable condition' this morning. Not really detailed other than you can assume they will survive and maybe not be incapacitated.
Looking at the footage, when they ejected, I'd be surprised if the jets had any forward airspeed at all. They look like they'd basically cobra'd to a standstill and were about to fall out of the sky.
Well there is a video of the 4 of them walking around after having landed so that's about as good of an answer as you're going to get for now. No doubt they'll be in hospital getting evaluated, by they seem 'fine'
being injured is normally par for the course with ejections in general. the goal is to come out in one piece, not always unscathed given the force put on the body during an ejection
Yah a lot of assumptions are being made that they’d be safe. They literally explode the windows to get out there. There is probably zero chance we would hear the truth though if they were even slightly injured
It looks like it was roughly 5-6 seconds or so from when they made contact till ejection was triggered. I wonder if there was a split second where they thought they could save it, or if they immediately went to ejection protocol.
Not a pilot, but generally speaking who would be at fault? The pilot of the airplane that overtook from above or below? Seems the pilot below would have been able to see them through the canopy, but i imagine you don't look up for obstructions too often...you know because you're in the sky.
Generally speaking by now you should have heard by now that there will be an investigation to determine what happened. Seems not pilots still can’t help letting their untrained selves spout opinions about things they know nothing about before the wreckage stops smoldering.
There are plenty of Hornet pilots in this thread (including myself). We don't have to shut our brains off until the safety center releases a 20-page PDF in 3-6 months.
I’m supposed to pretend I didn’t see what I saw because he’s a “fellow pilot?“ That’s not how aviation works, dude. We call out obvious mistakes. We don’t hedge. Nothing I said justifies “know it all.” You just can’t get your ego out of the way.
I can’t get the ego out of the way? I’m not the one going on the internet to tell the world I know exactly what happened.
You should well know there is a chain of events that cause any incident. You want to impress internet layman with a Neanderthal “PILOT WRONG” it’s up to you, but try to be realistic with yourself.
I’m not the one going on the internet to tell the world I know exactly what happened.
That’s not “ego” if you can’t explain how I’m wrong. You got nothing on the substance here. Just whining and tone policing.
You should well know there is a chain of events that cause any incident.
Not mid-air collisions. It’s always someone fucking up.
You want to impress internet layman with a Neanderthal “PILOT WRONG”
With this reasoning, no professional can ever offer up their expertise because someone like you will take personal offense to having their preconceived notions challenged.
So I can’t explain how you are wrong for the same reason you can’t explain how you are right. The cause hasn’t been determined yet. Thats kinda the point here.
There is always a chain of events. One action is different in that chain and the accident doesn’t happen. The fact you don’t understand that makes me question your knowledge of the basic of air safety.
Along with that, you are not spreading your expertise. You are taking a guess. While it may be an educated guess, it is still just a guess.
I do admire your certainty in getting to the root cause of what happened with only a 30 second video clip.
So I can’t explain how you are wrong for the same reason you can’t explain how you are right.
No. We are not on the same footing here. I can explain how I'm right.
Collisions between fighter jets are always pilot error. ALWAYS. You can search all you want for a mishap that proves me wrong. You won't find it.
There's no mechanical failure that can cause this
There is no weather or obscuration to cause this.
They're already a formation so this can't be on ATC or the air boss.
There is always a chain of events.
This is just you trying to sound smart with an empty platitude. Trying to hide behind a vague authoritative-sounding platitude. The "chain of events" is -2 lost sight of his lead and didn't deconflict properly. There's literally NO other explanation.
One action is different in that chain and the accident doesn’t happen
You're out of your depth trying to throw around smart-sounding terms, because those very same accident reports you’re trying to mimic very much attribute a single cause to an accident. You're conflating the fact that they highlight any possible contributing factors to mean that they don't blame a single cause. That's not at all what they do.
Along with that, you are not spreading your expertise. You are taking a guess.
No, my expertise says there is literally only one possible explanation for what we saw. You can't hypothesize another plausible one. That's not guessing. That's using experience to rule out any other explanation.
I do admire your certainty in getting to the root cause of what happened with only a 30 second video clip.
Where are you getting this notion that the cause of a mishap can never be obvious? Especially to someone with experience in that kind of environment?
Ok. You are right because to are right and there is no other option because you are right. What a tired argument. My years of Aviation Safety training were apparently didn’t exist.
You should use your knowledge for good and replace all of those morons at the NTSB and Accident Boards. Save the country all sorts of money.
Ok. You are right because to are right and there is no other option because you are right.
No, I'm right for that list I literally just spelled out for you. Quit being such a child.
My years of Aviation Safety training were apparently didn’t exist.
Why be vague? What exactly is your experience? What pilot rating do you have, and what safety training are you referring to?
You should use your knowledge for good and replace all of those morons at the NTSB and Accident Boards.
How does that even remotely follow from what I've said here? This is utter nonsense. Me offering up my expert take on this incident is not at all the same thing as saying that the accident investigation process shouldn't run its course. Pure nonsense. That's a complete non-sequitir.
Hey man, I said you were right. You know more than the rest of us and I was a fool for doubting you. 10 years as the Director of Safety and flying jets (not fighters) hasn’t taught me anything. I defer to your knowledge.
Your expert take has already figured out what happened. We don’t need an accident investigation. You’ve shown that, or you wouldn’t already be telling everyone the cause of the accident.
You do what you want, it’s America. I think you are wrong for doing it, you think you are right. We aren’t going to agree.
10 years as the Director of Safety and flying jets
What does that even mean? That's not a military position. Flying what kind of jets? You have any experience at all with formation flying? How about dynamic formation flying? Are you familiar with every F-18 an EA-18 mishap in the last decade?
hasn’t taught me anything.
What would it teach you about flying formation at 400 mph at 1000 feet?
Your expert take has already figured out what happened. We don’t need an accident investigation.
That is utter nonsense logic. That is a non-sequitur. Do you know what that means?
You’ve shown that, or you wouldn’t already be telling everyone the cause of the accident.
No. That is a completely unjustified leap in logic. Publicly pontificating on a significant event has no bearing on the nature of an accident investigation. That's like a lawyer explaining how fucked a high-profile defendant is in an upcoming trial, and you saying "Oh look at you. You got it all figured out. I guess we don't need a trial now. They should just call you."
I’m just done arguing with a random on Reddit. Never claimed to be military, never claimed to know what happened. That’s the point. Nobody knows the cause of this. It you are very defensive when questioned about something you are so sure about.
By the way- look up the definition of pontificate.
I’ll do it for you— “To pontificate means to express your opinions in a pompous, dogmatic way, as if you are absolutely right and above contradiction”
Of course you are. Just in time to avoid answering relevant questions.
Nobody knows the cause of this
Wrong. It’s pilot error. Just like every single mid air in fighter aviation ever. You cannot point to a single instance where it wasn’t pilot error. THAT is how I know I’m right.
Never claimed to be military,
I never said otherwise. I was pointing out your lack of relevant experience.
By the way- look up the definition of pontificate.
Your reading comprehension sucks. I chose that wording on purpose to show that even if you think I’m trying to bloviate, that has no bearing on the necessity for an investigation. It’s a stupid non sequitur that allows you to hide behind petulant and ad hominem.
My reading comprehension must suck since I could have sworn you said “that’s not a military position” like it was an issue for you. Oh well.
Anyway, as fun as seeing you go apeshit over not liking you -or anyone- speculate on the cause of an aircraft crash before the wreckage has stopped smoldering your righteous indignation has become tiresome. You have worn me down in this endeavor.
BE PROUD RANDOM STRANGER. This internet argument shows you victorious!! Speculate to your hearts content.
Several former E/F-18 (and other high performance jet) pilots have been commenting in these threads, as well as pilots that have participated in formation flights in more "pedestrian" aircraft. The bedrock principles of formation flight don't really change. Additionally, most of the comments from these folks I've seen have been couched with something like, "I wasn't there, so I can't say exactly what happened... but generally..."
There is nothing at all wrong with speculation. You can't gatekeep people's thoughts, especially people that have experience with this activity.
Speculating lets us think, expand our boundaries a bit. What does it look like *could* have happened here? Exploring potential risks or reasons, and how those things could impact the way we fly TODAY, instead of waiting for several months. |
I haven't seen anyone crucifying anybody (though that does happen, and in all but the very obvious cases is not a good thing). The circumstances here seem pretty obvious, and helps us all think about how we fly *right now* and how we can think more deeply about mitigating the risks we engage in.
So what was the root cause of this accident since you can tell from a few seconds of. Video? Do you agree with the non-pilots conclusion?
I hope when something happens to you that you and all the other “experts” are give.n more grace than you give. I would expect pilots to be better than this
You and everyone else here so ent know what happened and it is the height of arrogance to think you do.
A point of clarity: I'm not assigning blame for the accident there. A contributing factor? Sure. As soon as the wing loses sight of the lead, they should break off. Pretty fundamental part of formation flight. Now... are there other factors there that may have made it not possible for that pilot to break off? No idea. Which is why I'm not saying that pilot is at fault, but certainly a contributing factor.
And nowhere do I assume that I can determine the root cause of the accident. None of us can without all of the information, which none of us will ever have. Speculating, however, can help us think about our own operations and how we mitigate risk. You are correct in that some folks that speculate crucify people without all of the information.
"... when something happens to you..." Nice presumption. Nice.
Every 2-jet section has a flight lead and wingman. The wingman's #1 responsibility is not to strike the lead. There could be shared responsibility, if the lead's briefing was inadequate, or some other circumstances, but I think the first questions will be for the wingman.
Yeah this seems like the lead dropped altitude and corrected while the wingman kept going as if nothing happened. Lead should’ve communicated and taken space as a precaution and the wingman shouldve followed the leads, albeit weird, maneuver.
At least that’s how I interpret the incident from this new perspective.
Lead is never out of position. As a wingman it's your responsibility to react to lead... never the other way around. Not everything can be briefed...for example lead may have to react to an unexpected traffic conflict...and it's the wingman's responsibility to react accordingly. If wing ever loses sight of lead it's their responsibility to break out of the formation.
For an example of this, there's a video of the Thunderbirds flying in tight fingertip formation when lead has to maneuver aggressively to avoid traffic. Some of wingmen are able to stick with lead, while others break out.
Not a thread, but it’s known as the Indian Springs crash. A four-ship of Thunderbird T-38’s were practicing a diamond loop, something happened to the lead (investigation said stuck control surface, but I’ve also heard blackout/heart attack), loop went wide, and the other three followed lead right into the ground at full speed, 90 degree CFIT x4.
Yeah I agree. It would defeat the purpose of having lead/wingman to have the lead react to his wingman. But in this video you can clearly see the lead losing altitude and attempt to correct this. Im guessing that thats an unexpected factor that lead to the collision.
If lead has placed the wingman into tactical formation or combat spread, they are within their rights to even commence an Immelman or Half Cuban Eight without any radio chatter. Parade formation is different, because the wingman is expected to be close enough to see hand signals.
From the flying I see that preceded the accident, they were not in parade formation, so the lead may perform any maneuver that airspace constraints allow without announcing it or warning the wingman.
I had the same though that the lead is likely underneath him where he can’t see him. If true, big if, then the cause will largely be about him ending up in that blind spot to begin with, and only the investigation can figure that one out.
I think it's the other way around. The wingman is who ended up on the bottom. Overshot a rejoin in the turn and ended up in a bad spot ahead and below lead. The other aircraft (inside the turn, ending above and behind the wingmans aircraft), maintains a pretty steady bank angle thru the turn and then rolls out like you would expect from a lead aircraft.
Former F-18 Pilot here (not Growler). In general deconfliction responsibility is on both with circumstantial weight. It's heavily weighted towards the jet flying form or in the join but a lead can't just maneuver at will unless the chosen technique allows for it.
In this case, it seems entirely on the wing, apparently knowing where lead was but going belly-up in close.
There are at least 2 tools they would have at their disposal (radar and DME) to give them an idea of relative location and/or proximity (not sure if they were in the link or if ADSB has been added yet but that means up to 4 tools). Generally speaking you should have sight of the other jet within a mile and a good handle on your geometry within 0.5 and if you go blind in close with any sort of closure you need to talk about it as an immediate priority.
In any fighter training people who go belly up in joins or don't call blind and start those procedures will face the fury if a thousand sons. It's a little bit counterproductive because some guys become hesitant to call it real-time amd wont confess/admit it after the fact. Growler dont have as much opportunity to build that instinct with their lack of BFM but that really shouldn't be an excuse here.
Also I've noticed multi-crewed aircraft (not just military) have poorer SA when it comes to visual to other aircraft and radio because there is an instinct to trust and rely on the other crewmember. I can see both in the wing jet assuming the other would say something instead of going straight to blind procedures which would basically run this way:
"Blind" (I dont see ya)
"Blind 1000" (I dont see you either I'm at 1000 feet)
The first jet clears visually and gets the hell away from 1000'
It's almost like he started an underrun, and then went heads down at the worst possible time. He as an entire sphere of possible bail out directions to avoid a collision. Why did he just plow into him? I suspect going heads-down for something.
Possible but I really dont think so. This is a classic case of trying to fly form and rejoin looking over your shoulder. I've saved myself and a student from this situation dozens of times.
We also discourage rejoins from the outside of the turn for many reasons to include this very one.
I can't imagine letting a student get in the habit of rejoining from ahead and outside. Keep your radius and distance and lead will be back in front in no time.
It's hard to write in the nuance of what I'm saying. The instructors arent letting it happen in the sense that standards are totally dropping out or they're letting the joins happen from weird places. It's that people are being taught to do procedures to the point where they aren't understanding what actually needs to happen and what they're looking for. You think doing procedures teaches that but really it only gets people there through regular exposure. They say all the right things but dont actually take the time to do it. The student just feels pressure to get the task out of the way out of fear of the pinkslip instead of being taught in a manner that doesnt induce anxiety. They let the joins be habitually low and sucked.
One of the examples I have from T-45 land is teaching how to fly all parts of the underrun. What most instructors do is have the students deliberately underrun (or capitalize on a legit one), bark at them to get their power up to reach perch. Pressure them to hold the position, then tell them it's ok to return and the student just tries to get the rejoin over with. They dont hold a standard on relative motion or position they way I think they should.
I not only made sure to break down normal joins more thoroughly, I did the same for all the underrun and rejoin mech. On bearing in a B+R (fundamental to the join in the video), I had them stop at various distances (start, middle, just before crossunder) and do up/down, left/right, in/out. Same goes for controlling the cross under. Same goes for flying in perch. Same goes for methodically flying the rejoin. The instruction says a person should be able to freeze relative position at any point of any basic form maneuver, I actually took the time to show them how.
My basic form flights were maybe .1 to .2 longer than average and the students were often upset that it seemed i held them to a higher standard. Well it was never the people I got to first that did the crazy shit in div or strike so I'd like to think it was working well.
So you and Turkstache are saying the jet on the LEFT at the start of the video is the wingman in an overshoot? I am thinking it is lead with wingman on the right who runs into lead between the tails. BWTFDIK???
The first video made the roles look reversed, this new perspective makes it pretty clear. I think in hindsight it would be more clear to define them by inside vs. outside of the turn.
In a join the lead's primary job is to be a stable and predictable platform (context dependant). The apparent lead (On the inside of the turn. On top at collision) is keeping up a pretty consistent turn circle and basically waiting for the other jet to arrive. They might even be aware of an underrun and the underrun jet should report.
The mechanics of the apparent wing's jet (making all the effort to join and trying to do it quickly) show exactly the issue i described previously and an issue I have a lot of experience correcting.
Great information, and much of which I had assumed. Thank you for writing all this out.
I would not want to be in that carpet dance. Those are going to be unpleasant days.
And I cannot begin to fathom what was going through the minds of all four pilots the second after punch out. One second you are going a few hundred miles and hour, the next you've rocketed out of your aircraft and you are swinging under a chute, hopefully not headed into the crash zone. All while knowing bad things have happened, and the next few weeks are going to be distinctly unpleasant... ALL while floating a few feet or so from the other crew. Wild.
It appears from the video that the wingman lost sight of lead. (You can't see another aircraft through the floor of the jet unless you've got a helmet like the F-35's.) Whenever a wingman loses sight of lead it's critical for them to break out of the formation, i.e, break away from lead's last known position.
It was not the leader's responsibility to avoid hitting the wingman. One of the bedrock principles of formation flying that students learn on Day One is, "Lead is never out of position".
That's possible, if he lost sight and was only looking straight out ahead instead of up. But then it's not like the lead is moving around randomly. When -2 lost sight, it would have been as lead was drifting up and aft in his canopy... So that's where you start looking.
It’s the wingman’s fault. They own deconfliction. And they weren’t even doing any difficult maneuver. This is something student pilots with 50 hours are trained to execute safely. I don’t know what they were doing unless there was some flight control issue that caused uncommitted input
Normal traffic rules do not apply in air shows, they usually sign waivers fly very specifically trained patterns. We can't know who/what is at fault without knowing what the pattern was supposed to be, or finding out more details.
That was certainly the case at the Dallas airshow a few years ago where the P-63 went belly up/blind and hit the B-17, but they were not part of the same formation. They were two independent aircraft flying a prebriefed traffic pattern.
For a section (2-plane formation) it can be an Airshow, normal ops at the NAS, CV ops, it doesn't matter where you are. The lead flies his/her jet and the wingman keeps sight and doesn't hit them. That's the cardinal rule.
It was possibly only two ejection initiations at almost the same time. What I mean by that is that typically the pilot will choose group eject (I think that's what it's called - it's been 40 years), so that if the pilot pulls the yellow handle the seat(s) behind the pilot goes first, with a delay between the two of about a second - maybe a fraction more or less.
In Vikings (RIP), and I assume in Prowlers (RIP), the two back seats would go first, then the two front seats. This helps reduce the risk of burns. If all four went at the same time, the people in the back could possibly get some burns (much less likely in the Viking because of the consoles the two in back had and the roughly six foot distance between the front and back seats. All of this is based on the assumption the pilot has chosen group eject (they probably have; it would be rare and foolish not to). Even in group eject, each person still has the option of ejecting on their own. Relying on the pilot to eject everyone is good and bad. Good because the pilot will hopefully know when it's time. Bad in that sometimes pilots try too long to save an aircraft.
In these two Growlers, the back seaters may or may not have ejected themselves. Mishap* reports are generally made public, but I think most people would forget to ever check months down the line when the investigation is done.
*It's funny, in a morbid way, how disasters are referred to as mishaps.
Generally fly in after initiate which means if either of the crew pulls the handle, both go. For ONLY the pilot to go, maintenance has to put a holder on the ejection selection handle in the backseat to hold it in solo.
From what I remember, it was different with the ESCAPAC 1-E1 seats. The pilot had a handle that could select one or the other. I can't remember if the copilot's seat did, but I'd guess it did. We flew with NFOs in the copilot's seat, except for the very first months I was in my squadron.
We also didn't have pins for the seats, but "headknockers" instead - a lever in the headrest that could safe or arm seats individually. (And obviously all four of us would safe our seats if one of us had to get up. The Four Musketeers - All for one, and one for all!) Maintenance personnel had pins that were an added level of safety, but those weren't installed in "up" S-3s.
I'm not sure if the angle is misleading here but that still looked like a sketchy ejection. They were both still so close to each other. Better risky than dead I guess.
The seat selectors were probably set so that one crew member (probably the rear seater) ejected both seats. It tandem two-seat jets you can have various choices as to the sequencing of the seats. Each seat can be ejected individually, or a single crew member can eject both.
In jets with a single canopy it's usually important for the rear seat to go first, because if the rear seater is still in place when the front seater's rocket fires, the rear seater can be roasted.
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If you’ve seen that POV video of a Russian pilot over Ukraine ejecting, it’s insane. One second he’s peacefully flying low over a farm, like a second later he’s ejected into the wheat field
F-111 had a unique ejection capsule that jettisoned the entire cockpit rather than individual ejection seats. When the handles were pulled, the crew remained safely encapsulated inside the separated cockpit module as parachutes deployed to cushion their impact.
Old times yea, I flew with an old F100 Super Sabre guy, the very old ejection seats were a rocket and they were basically 1 stage and compressed your spine, 2 ejections were dangerous.
Now it’s 13-21 steps even though it looks like one blast. Huge difference in the compression.
Seems like zero-zero ejection seats take into account attitude/speed, and vary the rocket deployment accordingly? All 4 ejected sideways but it looks “slow” and they barely have any velocity in any direction the moment their chutes open.
Were’nt the very first ejection seats basically a 37mm cannon shell “blank” that extended a telescoping rod that flung the pilot seat above the vertical stabiliser? That would really compress your spine…
No clue about the history, but probably, my understanding was the first “modern” ones were a single rocket charge and then things sort of developed from there.
Someone correct me on this if I’m wrong, but no you’re not automatically barred as long as they can still pass a pilot medical. Though I think three ejections is the max and then you are done.
what are they gonna fly? the last growler in the inventory? nobody is giving them any seat time. by the time the investigation is all said and done they wont be qualified to fly a kite.
I suspect it's the lower aircraft at fault really. They seemed to level out from the turn and slow down little then recommence the turn just before impact. They would also have had a better chance of eyeballing the other than the trailing Growler.
It's the rear pilots fault. The moment he lost sight of the lead aircraft they should've called "break" and split different directions or he should've broke the formation to regain that line of sight. They practice this scenario. The exact same thing happened with a P-63 and a B-17 a few years back. With close formation maneuvers the trailing aircraft has to have line of sight with the lead aircraft to maintain separation. Sadly this was just a split second mistake and they are all lucky to be alive.
Sorry you had to see that. The only good thing is that they didn't have a lot of time to think about it and it was over quickly for them. Sad to lose those lives, sad to lose those historical airframes, sad to be another statistic.
Flight has always been inherently dangerous especially when putting on a show so close to the ground. You can still do everything perfect and things can go wrong.
Came here to say this: "The exact same thing happened with a P-63 and a B-17 a few years back." Airboss had responsibility on that one .... poorly communicated or no altitude deconfliction, but I'm not sure how that works with military
That's my take, as well. If they were following (which it appears they were) as soon as they lost sight (which looks like they would have at the beginning of that turn) they should have immediately broken off as the higher and inside aircraft. Recipe for disaster.
Probably depends on who is lead and who is the wingman. Wingman is typically responsible for maintaining seperation.
That being said...I'd agree that the lower one is probably more at fault. They are on the outside of the turn, so better visibility to the other aircraft...and looks as though they make more control inputs during the turn while the other aircraft is a steady bank angle until roll out. Makes me believe the outside/lower aircraft overshot a re-join and ended up in a bad spot.
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Looks like dash2, the starboard jet, was struggling to maintain position on his lead, falling behind. When he tried to catch up by turning inside, he lost sight under his nose and settled belly down onto lead's spine.
it will be investigated, maybe something punitive for the wingman, but unless they suffer medicals, I see no reason why the pilots would not be allowed to fly again.
it takes years and costs millions to train a Navy Pilot.
you don't just toss them on the scrap heap because of a split second mistake, even one that costs a couple of hundred million.
willfully, maliciously poor and dangerous airmanship will (sometimes) get you shitcanned (unless you fly a B52 and leadership is crap) but a swiss cheese of mistakes generally will not.
we'll have to see what comes out of the investigation.
Then again, you don't even need to lose your wings to effectively lose your career if the black mark on your record will keep you from further promotions or commands.
Obviously from where we're all sitting it's a lot of guesswork, but I don't think I'm going out on too much of a limb if I state that none of the 4 crew come out of this looking good. Four pairs of eyes and four brains across two jets and you manage to run into each other on a rejoin in good weather during an air show?
I'm sure a tapestry of little mistakes and procedural shortcomings are at play here as well, but I can't shake the notion that a large part of this is just the momentary rush-of-shit-to-the-brain absence of some basic airmanship principles.
wingman overshot, lead corrected/manoeuvred just at the wrong moment and splat.
it will land on the Wingman, as it is his primary duty to first and foremost keep the lead in visual at all times and avoid collision and he did not break away as soon as he lost sight of the lead.
I can't see the lead pilot or the Lead WSO getting shitcanned, nor the wingmans WSO.
Not a naval aviator here but someone very interested in (naval) aviation.
I do not think that the demo team will get grounded forever. They are too much a great advertising tool for the Navy to show off. Maybe the "climax" of every air show?
Additionally, people forget fast. I expect this incident to be out of the news within a few weeks unless something really grave will be found out, e.g. willful manipulation of a jet or an intoxicated pilot. The news caravan moves on and that is unfortunately in the interest of the forces. 🤷♂️
It looks like the trailing aircraft let the lead aircraft get below his field of view and lost track of him. IIRC a similar problem led to the 2022 Dallas airshow midair. That was a P-63F known for having poor visibility out of the cockpit
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you can tell both pilots went full throttle the moment they collided, and that massive amount of thrust kept them 'hovering' for 2 seconds almost. before gravity took over.
remarkable footage.
utterly amazing there was enough room for all for pilots to eject with hitting either the plane or themselves.
These modern planes with a big composite percentage in their structure seem to take a lot more punishment than planes made of aluminum or other old-tech materials.
The F-35 that crashed on a carrier a few years ago also remained in one part initially.
Physics is wild. The G load on their bodies when both planes slowed to almost 0 air speed must've been intense and the moment they could they pulled the handles.
The angle of the camera views and distance has a lot to do with that appearance of floating. I'm pretty confident they still had some ground speed moving away from the camera, though pitched up that far, it was surely falling fast. The aerodynamic wake of the bottom plane, along with engine air intake of the upper plane are my guesses as to why they seemed stuck together.
as evidenced by the distance from distance between the chutes and the smoke/explosion. the pitch up was clearly crazy G's and caused them all to eject right at that moment, but so many people in here commenting how they 'hovered' or some shit lol.
I wonder if the float has anything to do with the raw power of F/A-18 class. That is, they do high alpha passes all the time because F/A-18s have a shitload of thrust and have good aerodynamics for it
So in the latching moment, both pilots probably gave it full power which allowed the jets to weirdly hover for a bit.
can you imagine just floating down next to the guys that just rammed you lmao. gotta be a real weird sense of happiness surviving and seeing 4 chutes and being really really annoyed.
Yeah feels like a bizarre little dance created by a mix of drag and thrust from the engines.
You can see the weight on the back of the lower F-18 pushes its nose up then drag takes over and the plane is pointed vertical for a few moments being held aloft by the engine thrust, then the noses drop, the pilots punch out, and the planes nosedive.
This angle makes a lot more sense than the one I saw on the news. Looks like the second jet momentarily may have lost sight of the lead jet so he pitched down to see him……although it also looks like he may have sped up slightly which didn’t help the situation. Happy both crew made it out safely.
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Good awareness of what he’s witnessing. Immediately understood that there were 4 crew members ejecting and that they seemed safe. A lot of “lay people” would barely understand what they’re looking at or would be speechless for at least a couple seconds.
Yeah but like, how much wizzo shiz needs to be done at an airshow. Are they not single-pilot capable aircraft? I mean I kind of get it, you and your WSO are a team, you have a flow for every flight.
Weight and balance probably. Either a WSO (or whatever Growlers call their back seater) or having to throw in some ballast. Plus...flying is training. WSO probably has some responsibility for helping with situational awareness during formation flying....
The don't fly without a back seater. Partially for the ego of the back-seat community, and partially because the whole point is to recruit future aviators, so that means showcasing both roles.
Yeah i was wondering this too. I do atc and anytime ive ever worked an emergency on an f18 id say 7/10 times when I ask for souls on board they'll say 1. The other times are usually when they are training flights. So I guess its possible they were training new people during an airshow but I dont think they'd be actively jamming radar at an airshow.
Theyre all blips on the radar screen, a 747 looks exactly the same as a skyhawk to me. What i care about in a plane is what I can expect out of it in regards to climb rates, speed, turning radius and just general performance and navigation capabilities. They could have 5 people stuffed into one and having a tea party on board it wouldnt really change how I look at the plane.
Some completely need out on planes and some don't just depends on the person. Id say most of interested when we're working planes that you rarely see like a p51 or a dc3. The thing is too that a lot of the time the flight plans and data blocks we have for the fighters will just say F18. Occasionally youll see f18e or one of the other designations, but theyre not specific all the time, so even someone who knew the difference between the variations couldnt tell without asking.
There are both two-seat and single seat operational Super Hornet squadron. Two-seaters are not just for training. If you worked an emergency where they said 1 soul on board, then in all likelihood you were talking to someone flying an F/A-18E, not an F/A-18F with an empty back seat. Operational two-seat squadrons, with very rare exceptions, don’t go flying with their back seat unoccupied. The same goes for Growler squadrons. Their habit patterns are built around working as a crew. Plus, EWOs/WSOs need hours/currency too.
The second person isn't strictly necessary, but Growlers NEVER fly single seat, to make sure not a single (very expensive) flying hour of the aircraft is wasted.
Growlers always operate as a crewed aircraft, and every single flight hour is used for training and to build proficiency in a crewed aircraft.
They aren't flying that airshow for "fun", but partially also to build regular proficiency for both people. They aren't practicing electronic warfare there, but how to manage radios and communication, how to do crew coordination, probably some radar stuff for the EWO etc. etc.
Possible it's also for showing the plane normally uses two people. Air shows are big recruiting tools for the military. Better to show an accurate example, it would stick in the mind more than an empty backseat.
There are two types of demonstration teams. First type is an entirely dedicated unit, like the Blue Angels, the Thunderbirds, RAF Red Arrows, French Air Force Patrouille de France, etc. They fly specially modified aircraft that are not necessarily 100% mission-capable, and demonstration flying is all they do, all year long.
The other type is a team put ut by an operational unit, using standard operational aircraft. For the selected crews, demo is only a part-time job : once the demo season is over, they go back to operational duties. So the demo is also flown under operational conditions, meaning two crew members in the EA-18G case.
Most airshows I have been involved with say, “only essential flight crew on display flights”. This became a rule after a few high profile show crashes where the aircraft had passengers aboard. So I guess essential means two when it comes to Growlers.
As this was an airshow, i wonder if either aircraft had a go-pro filming from the cockpit. It would be really interesting to see this from the pilot POV. Of course, even if there is cockpit video, the DOD probably doesn’t want to publicize the loss of 100 million+ in aviation hardware.
I don’t know the pilots in question here, but based on previous accidents, people who don’t regularly fly like this, should not do so. Despite whatever rank and airframe experience they have.
Might be just the new viewpoint, but a second later and the bottom crew could have ejected into the bottom of the nose of the top aircraft. Most chaotic slow crash I have seen.
The seat is balanced with its shape and CG placement to self-right as the rocket is firing. Then there's a stabilizing parachute that helps further. Finally a separate rocket fires whose only purpose is to extend the parachute.
Been seeing this incident all day and still cannot get over how instant-quickly the pilots punched out.. like, that's a HUGE decision to abandon the aircraft but they took split seconds to know it was needed. That is amazing discipline and training kicking in there.
No there is no auto eject system. And honestly that ejection was kind of delayed. They were probably stunned until the jets started flipping around, at which point it was obvious it was time to get out.
First video I couldn’t really tell how this happened, this one makes it look like the bottom jet, for some reason, decided to gain altitude and collided with the top jet who seemed to be maintaining its path, am I reading that right?
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I think they are such precise crews when they realized something was wrong because the two planes were in the same place they immediately did the exact same thing to prep for ejection which made the two planes in the same place do the same thing in the same plane and become one
One thing that's pretty amazing is how they both ejected at almost the same time. Neither crew had 2nd thoughts or anything, and clearly shows how their training kicks in.
Can someone explain how the eject and parachutes work? It seems like they ejected almost downward. How do they flip around and make sure the canopies open upward?
In the Growler, like most fighter jets, ejection is manually initiated (pull the “GTFO” handles). Since they are two seaters though, if either crew pulls the handles, both seats will eject.
The only plane I can think of with autoeject is the F35B. While hovering, it has a design quirk where if the lift can were to fail, the aircraft would pitch forward and enter an unsafe ejection envelope faster than a pilot could react.
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Usually various modes they can have them set to fire both or individual I think generally front seat always fires both but some modes back seat can fire alone.
Top plane most likely, it looks like the lead plane leveled off an the wingman continued to descend even though they had lost sight of the lead. The failure would be in losing sight of the lead plane you are in formation with and then a second failure of not sliding to the right, up or left (air space you can actually see and is clear) until you get eyes on the lead again. Very expensive mistake they were very lucky to survive.
I cant help but laugh at the thought of all four of them slowly gliding down to the ground together while trying to avoid eye contact with the pilots of the other aircraft
I mean, the plane that came in from behind on top couldn't see below himself and must have assumed the one below was going faster or had moved away.
And the one below in front wasn't looking back, (is that part of the RIO/copilot, job in something like this?) . So they both probably couldn't see each other. Im assuming they have to disable collision avoidance tech when flying that close anyway.
I have so many questions. Just glad everyone is alive to figure it out.
I watched a Ward Carrol interview the other day with a pilot who was working on the development of the Auto Ground Collision Avoidance System and newer system that would automatically avoid collisions as well (ACAS). Not on F18s yet but may be in the future.
The wingman should never lose sight of the lead. If they do, they call "lost sight" and take prebriefed measures to gain separation.
VAQ-130 was my old squadron, back when we flew less pretty airplanes. Despite the seriousness of what happened, the 4 chutes brought back a grim smile. We had one pilot and 3 ECMOs.
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Uhh.. might be different where you're at but here a pilot can be stripped of their wings committing major flight violations. If a mishap investigation concludes that an avoidable crash was a result of reckless and willful pilot error, they can face permanent grounding. Also literally 2 fighter pilots lost their wings in 2011 for flying to low during a flyover a stadium so this pilot is fucked if they're at fault.
My guy. They literally ground 2 pilot permanent for just flying too low, if this was a pilot error mistake they're fucked. Idk how you're not understanding this lol?
From this angle, it's pretty easy to see how he could have momentarily lost sight of the other plane. And it's very possible the leading one pulled up just slightly early.
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Man, it almost looks like they could have pulled out of it. I know that's impossible for myriad reasons, but the sheer thrust of those jets pushed them both upward, keeping them in a twisted suspension for a good few seconds.
I'd be very curious to see simulated recreations where saving your life isn't a factor.
How the planes just stopped forward momentum like this is insane. I can’t even wrap my head around that. Also them not breaking apart on contact like that.
I'm no expert on flying, but it seems like the second plane (the one on the top of the hug) felt a bit 'off' from the very beginning of that video. Not nearly as smooth as the lead plane.
Did they just lose sight of the lead plane, or was something else going on there?
What a strange feeling that all must have been. All those forces in one direction and then you're aiming towards the sky hardly moving. How weird it must have been to process what was going on.
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aurules@reddit
Nothing short of a miracle that they got 4 clean ejections & chutes
Scared-Housing-2334@reddit
The way the aircrafts interacted in the air felt like the usual physics glitch between two jets colliding in GTA V and getting stuck on each other's collision geometry while flailing helplessly in the air.
The scissor offset between the two cockpits that allowed the bottom crew to not reenact Top Gun 1 is nothing short of a miracle. Happy for everyone involved, but not sure what to say about the decision to unnecessarily risk Growlers (no longer manufactured) for an air show. That's a lot of money American tax payers just pissed down the toilet.
Ok_Skill_2725@reddit
In weather that is unpredictable is even crazier.
ROLL_TID3R@reddit
Was about to say, I do this all the time in War Thunder.
EmergencyO2@reddit
Please unpack your statement about unnecessary risk?
Growlers are at air shows all the time. I don’t see how the inherent risk of flying as a pair is significantly increased by their participation.
stevecostello@reddit
"unnecessarily risk Growlers for an air show"
They don't make Growlers any more, and Growlers are a fair bit more expensive than a Super Hornet. u/Scared-Housing-2334 is implying that there is no reason to risk the limited supply of the more expensive Growlers when the more plentiful and "cheaper" Super Hornets would do just as well.
EmergencyO2@reddit
I understand the (lack of) supply. What I’m getting at is specifically risk management. Does participating in air shows create more risk per flying hour than normal training flights? Just because the planes aren’t flying for show doesn’t mean they’re not flying at all.
Accidental-Genius@reddit
This might blow your mind but they don’t fly this close to each other on purpose during training flights.
CptSandbag73@reddit
No they fly fingertip all the time… basic formation competency.
Even in undergraduate pilot training.
Accidental-Genius@reddit
With Growlers they fly formation flights all the time? Why?
RIPDaug2019-2019@reddit
There are other planes that we have made more of that don't fill such a niche role that could have been used. Risking planes that are no longer manufactured AND fill a specialized role is a significant risk, because if you lose one (or two) there's no replacement in the pipeline.
EmergencyO2@reddit
I get the supply. I’m talking inherent risk from flying. Everything has an inherent risk, and it’s everyone’s goal to bring that as low as reasonably possible. These planes were going to be flying no matter what because the pilots need to get their flight time, so you cannot just say there is zero risk if they don’t participate.
So, does flying at an air show have significantly more risk than flying a different training mission? All their maneuvers are well within the limits of the air frame, the pilot, and the flight area (proximity to ground). Accidents can happen on any flight type.
roadbikemadman@reddit
Why don't you Google it and let us know instead of repeating the question?
EmergencyO2@reddit
I did. Google returns results about spectator safety, precision aerobatics (Thunderbirds / Blue Angles) and the more daredevil type aerobatics. Not much in regards to the tactical demonstration teams. There also doesn’t seem to be anything public that tracks accidents or mishaps per hour flown for routine training and demo hours. So that is why it is an open question.
roadbikemadman@reddit
https://www.denvergazette.com/outtherecolorado/2026/05/18/up-to-49-of-snow-could-hit-colorado-peak-this-week-amid-winter-storm-warning
Currently snowing in Estes Park...this afternoon, but not really sticking. Going to be a little different higher up in the park.
Processing img gihqnaf6yy1h1...
CommuterType@reddit
The word “aircraft” in any of its forms will never include the letter S
Ok-Foundation1346@reddit
From this angle it looks to me like the Sidewainder rail on the tip of the left wing of the top jet might have hooked under the wing of the lower one, which would go some way to explaining how they seemed to lock together.
RobotSpaceBear@reddit
The slow speed characteristics of that airframe are insane, it 100% gave us that weird interaction were it looked like a bad video game.
ic33@reddit
Biplanes are surprisingly good when you're really slow.
Ok_Adhesiveness_4939@reddit
r/Angryupvote
No_Public_7677@reddit
Now we know that video games are accurate in slow relative speed physics.
Now we have to figure out every other scenario in video game physics.
BattleHall@reddit
Yeah, if I had to guess, almost like some sort of weird boundary layer effect, like they got caught in the disturbed air coming off the other jet which caused their control surfaces to stall out and for them to behave like one object aerodynamically.
AdoringCHIN@reddit
I've definitely done something like this in GTA multiple times when I'm losing a dogfight and decide to just go for the ramming kill. It's surreal to see it happen in real life. It just doesn't seem like that kind of interaction should be possible in the real world.
roehnin@reddit
4 chutes but I’ve not heard any news yet on whether they were all ok
Ok_Assumption1542@reddit
3 are fine 1 was in the hospital for minor injuries as of this morning.
LessEffectiveExample@reddit
My sister was at the air show. Shortly after the incident they announced to the crowd that all four pilots were all okay.
Yuukiko_@reddit
would they even announce that someone was seriously injured?
Aksds@reddit
There is also videos of all 4 landing and walking away with medical
No_Public_7677@reddit
Link
Aksds@reddit
Yep sorry, https://youtube.com/shorts/gqAMMtU9_3k
No_Public_7677@reddit
Damnit, it got removed
hell2pay@reddit
Likely not, ime anyway.
The airshow I saw where an F-86 crashed and blew up, it was obvious that he didn't eject.
They definitely didn't announce he was dead. Just that they were doing everything they could to keep everyone safe.
546875674c6966650d0a@reddit
But they also didn’t announce they were fine falsely at that show. Seems they would just not say anything given any chance it had gone bad.
Iwantmoretime@reddit
This is in line with typical live sports procedures. Take someone injured in live events to the hospital where they are later pronounced dead.
Dan Wheldon and Dale Earnhardt both come to mind.
No one ever dies infront of the crowd.
546875674c6966650d0a@reddit
Exactly. Either condition unknown, or nothing is said at all at the event.
Gurneydragger@reddit
El Toro 1998? I was there too.
Stunning-Screen-9828@reddit
The tragic crash of an F-86 Sabre jet (Col. Jack Rosamond) at the 1997 Air Show Colorado at Broomfield, June 1, 1997, which gained widespread infamy due to being heavily featured on the 1990s television program Real TV.
spastical-mackerel@reddit
El Toro?
hell2pay@reddit
1997 at the Broomfield Airshow in Colorado
Ok_Ambassador3635@reddit
That honestly sounds intense to witness firsthand. Respect to the crews though keeping people calm and safe in moments like that is no small thing.
FucknAright@reddit
Yes, I was at the last Air Races in Reno where two pilots crashed and died. The show went on.
AltrntivInDoomWorld@reddit
That's bullshit because you are always injured after ejecting.
DroneyMcDroner@reddit
In all fairness, sounds like one of those pilots is in some serious condition.
nfield750@reddit
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFu1oV_31B4&pp=ygUyRmFpcmZvcmQgbWlnIDI5IGNyYXNoIGFuZCBwaWxvdHMgc21va2luZyBjaWdhcmV0dGU%3D&ra=m
EbbyRed@reddit
Anyone with a quarter of a brain knows that in this context "okay" doesn't exactly equate to uninjured.
roehnin@reddit
Fantastic, glad to hear!!
Soft_Walrus_3605@reddit
Last I heard was "all stable"
Starrion@reddit
Yeah, there is video of them up and walking around.
Immediate-Spite-5905@reddit
their careers might take a hit but i dont think we should speculate about how much was avoidable pilot error
PipeWorth361@reddit
It's reported they safely ejected
roehnin@reddit
Yeah we can see that in the video, my question is if they were injured
ReferentiallySeethru@reddit
I think most ejections result in some injury to the pilot, especially their spine, since they’re propelled out of the plane at like 18G’s and whiplashed against the air going however fast their plane is going. I think it’s safe to say they all survived and “okay”, but they may suffer lifelong pain or may not be able to pilot a plane again.
roehnin@reddit
Yeah my question is about these four guys specifically, if any information has been released about them in particular
Heavyspire@reddit
I also heard they were in 'stable condition' this morning. Not really detailed other than you can assume they will survive and maybe not be incapacitated.
zthunder777@reddit
Local news was reporting they were “being evaluated” and in “stable” condition
Ecthelion-O-Fountain@reddit
Are there usually restraining devices to prevent those whiplash injuries in modern injection seats?
jeb_hoge@reddit
Looking at the footage, when they ejected, I'd be surprised if the jets had any forward airspeed at all. They look like they'd basically cobra'd to a standstill and were about to fall out of the sky.
HarvHR@reddit
Well there is a video of the 4 of them walking around after having landed so that's about as good of an answer as you're going to get for now. No doubt they'll be in hospital getting evaluated, by they seem 'fine'
PipeInitial1576@reddit
being injured is normally par for the course with ejections in general. the goal is to come out in one piece, not always unscathed given the force put on the body during an ejection
danekan@reddit
Yah a lot of assumptions are being made that they’d be safe. They literally explode the windows to get out there. There is probably zero chance we would hear the truth though if they were even slightly injured
iambobanderson@reddit
I guess the better miracle would be that it didn’t happen at all in the first place
CommuterType@reddit
Yeah, no shit. Insane luck means they miss each other
iambobanderson@reddit
They didn’t say insane luck they said miracle
Arizona_Pete@reddit
Someone at Martin-Baker deserves a kiss today.
r0thar@reddit
Four new tie pins!
King_Turduckin@reddit
Right? Hope each of these four walks out of the hospital and gets to buy the Breitling nobody wants to earn but that every owner cherishes.
WeNotAmBeIs@reddit
It looks like it was roughly 5-6 seconds or so from when they made contact till ejection was triggered. I wonder if there was a split second where they thought they could save it, or if they immediately went to ejection protocol.
Major_Shop_4942@reddit
Exactly my thinking, they ejected nose down while being right next to each other. Insane luck.
NachoManAndyCabage@reddit
Not a pilot, but generally speaking who would be at fault? The pilot of the airplane that overtook from above or below? Seems the pilot below would have been able to see them through the canopy, but i imagine you don't look up for obstructions too often...you know because you're in the sky.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
Generally speaking by now you should have heard by now that there will be an investigation to determine what happened. Seems not pilots still can’t help letting their untrained selves spout opinions about things they know nothing about before the wreckage stops smoldering.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
There are plenty of Hornet pilots in this thread (including myself). We don't have to shut our brains off until the safety center releases a 20-page PDF in 3-6 months.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
It’s plainly obvious you will throw your fellow pilots under the bus for internet points. Are you always a know it all?
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
I’m supposed to pretend I didn’t see what I saw because he’s a “fellow pilot?“ That’s not how aviation works, dude. We call out obvious mistakes. We don’t hedge. Nothing I said justifies “know it all.” You just can’t get your ego out of the way.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
I can’t get the ego out of the way? I’m not the one going on the internet to tell the world I know exactly what happened.
You should well know there is a chain of events that cause any incident. You want to impress internet layman with a Neanderthal “PILOT WRONG” it’s up to you, but try to be realistic with yourself.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
That’s not “ego” if you can’t explain how I’m wrong. You got nothing on the substance here. Just whining and tone policing.
Not mid-air collisions. It’s always someone fucking up.
With this reasoning, no professional can ever offer up their expertise because someone like you will take personal offense to having their preconceived notions challenged.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
So I can’t explain how you are wrong for the same reason you can’t explain how you are right. The cause hasn’t been determined yet. Thats kinda the point here.
There is always a chain of events. One action is different in that chain and the accident doesn’t happen. The fact you don’t understand that makes me question your knowledge of the basic of air safety.
Along with that, you are not spreading your expertise. You are taking a guess. While it may be an educated guess, it is still just a guess.
I do admire your certainty in getting to the root cause of what happened with only a 30 second video clip.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
No. We are not on the same footing here. I can explain how I'm right.
Collisions between fighter jets are always pilot error. ALWAYS. You can search all you want for a mishap that proves me wrong. You won't find it.
There's no mechanical failure that can cause this
There is no weather or obscuration to cause this.
They're already a formation so this can't be on ATC or the air boss.
This is just you trying to sound smart with an empty platitude. Trying to hide behind a vague authoritative-sounding platitude. The "chain of events" is -2 lost sight of his lead and didn't deconflict properly. There's literally NO other explanation.
You're out of your depth trying to throw around smart-sounding terms, because those very same accident reports you’re trying to mimic very much attribute a single cause to an accident. You're conflating the fact that they highlight any possible contributing factors to mean that they don't blame a single cause. That's not at all what they do.
No, my expertise says there is literally only one possible explanation for what we saw. You can't hypothesize another plausible one. That's not guessing. That's using experience to rule out any other explanation.
Where are you getting this notion that the cause of a mishap can never be obvious? Especially to someone with experience in that kind of environment?
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
Ok. You are right because to are right and there is no other option because you are right. What a tired argument. My years of Aviation Safety training were apparently didn’t exist.
You should use your knowledge for good and replace all of those morons at the NTSB and Accident Boards. Save the country all sorts of money.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
No, I'm right for that list I literally just spelled out for you. Quit being such a child.
Why be vague? What exactly is your experience? What pilot rating do you have, and what safety training are you referring to?
How does that even remotely follow from what I've said here? This is utter nonsense. Me offering up my expert take on this incident is not at all the same thing as saying that the accident investigation process shouldn't run its course. Pure nonsense. That's a complete non-sequitir.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
Hey man, I said you were right. You know more than the rest of us and I was a fool for doubting you. 10 years as the Director of Safety and flying jets (not fighters) hasn’t taught me anything. I defer to your knowledge.
Your expert take has already figured out what happened. We don’t need an accident investigation. You’ve shown that, or you wouldn’t already be telling everyone the cause of the accident.
You do what you want, it’s America. I think you are wrong for doing it, you think you are right. We aren’t going to agree.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
What does that even mean? That's not a military position. Flying what kind of jets? You have any experience at all with formation flying? How about dynamic formation flying? Are you familiar with every F-18 an EA-18 mishap in the last decade?
What would it teach you about flying formation at 400 mph at 1000 feet?
That is utter nonsense logic. That is a non-sequitur. Do you know what that means?
No. That is a completely unjustified leap in logic. Publicly pontificating on a significant event has no bearing on the nature of an accident investigation. That's like a lawyer explaining how fucked a high-profile defendant is in an upcoming trial, and you saying "Oh look at you. You got it all figured out. I guess we don't need a trial now. They should just call you."
You're embarrassing yourself.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
Pontificate away my friend.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Yeah that’s what I thought. You can’t risk answering my questions. But your non-answer is just as bad.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
I’m just done arguing with a random on Reddit. Never claimed to be military, never claimed to know what happened. That’s the point. Nobody knows the cause of this. It you are very defensive when questioned about something you are so sure about.
By the way- look up the definition of pontificate.
I’ll do it for you— “To pontificate means to express your opinions in a pompous, dogmatic way, as if you are absolutely right and above contradiction”
So good call on saying you were doing that.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Of course you are. Just in time to avoid answering relevant questions.
Wrong. It’s pilot error. Just like every single mid air in fighter aviation ever. You cannot point to a single instance where it wasn’t pilot error. THAT is how I know I’m right.
I never said otherwise. I was pointing out your lack of relevant experience.
Your reading comprehension sucks. I chose that wording on purpose to show that even if you think I’m trying to bloviate, that has no bearing on the necessity for an investigation. It’s a stupid non sequitur that allows you to hide behind petulant and ad hominem.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
My reading comprehension must suck since I could have sworn you said “that’s not a military position” like it was an issue for you. Oh well.
Anyway, as fun as seeing you go apeshit over not liking you -or anyone- speculate on the cause of an aircraft crash before the wreckage has stopped smoldering your righteous indignation has become tiresome. You have worn me down in this endeavor.
BE PROUD RANDOM STRANGER. This internet argument shows you victorious!! Speculate to your hearts content.
stevecostello@reddit
Several former E/F-18 (and other high performance jet) pilots have been commenting in these threads, as well as pilots that have participated in formation flights in more "pedestrian" aircraft. The bedrock principles of formation flight don't really change. Additionally, most of the comments from these folks I've seen have been couched with something like, "I wasn't there, so I can't say exactly what happened... but generally..."
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
Speculation is speculation.
stevecostello@reddit
There is nothing at all wrong with speculation. You can't gatekeep people's thoughts, especially people that have experience with this activity.
Speculating lets us think, expand our boundaries a bit. What does it look like *could* have happened here? Exploring potential risks or reasons, and how those things could impact the way we fly TODAY, instead of waiting for several months. |
I haven't seen anyone crucifying anybody (though that does happen, and in all but the very obvious cases is not a good thing). The circumstances here seem pretty obvious, and helps us all think about how we fly *right now* and how we can think more deeply about mitigating the risks we engage in.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
“The circumstances here seem pretty obvious”
So what was the root cause of this accident since you can tell from a few seconds of. Video? Do you agree with the non-pilots conclusion?
I hope when something happens to you that you and all the other “experts” are give.n more grace than you give. I would expect pilots to be better than this
You and everyone else here so ent know what happened and it is the height of arrogance to think you do.
stevecostello@reddit
A point of clarity: I'm not assigning blame for the accident there. A contributing factor? Sure. As soon as the wing loses sight of the lead, they should break off. Pretty fundamental part of formation flight. Now... are there other factors there that may have made it not possible for that pilot to break off? No idea. Which is why I'm not saying that pilot is at fault, but certainly a contributing factor.
And nowhere do I assume that I can determine the root cause of the accident. None of us can without all of the information, which none of us will ever have. Speculating, however, can help us think about our own operations and how we mitigate risk. You are correct in that some folks that speculate crucify people without all of the information.
"... when something happens to you..." Nice presumption. Nice.
UpdateDesk1112@reddit
And now you are just lying.
Commenter said “rear pilots fault is at fault”
You replied “that’s my take as well”
But now you aren’t saying that pilot was at fault? I’m confused.
You can couch it in your head in whichever way makes you feel better. Doesn’t change the fact of what you are doing. But thanks for the clarification.
Only-Amoeba-9308@reddit
Every 2-jet section has a flight lead and wingman. The wingman's #1 responsibility is not to strike the lead. There could be shared responsibility, if the lead's briefing was inadequate, or some other circumstances, but I think the first questions will be for the wingman.
XilenceBF@reddit
Yeah this seems like the lead dropped altitude and corrected while the wingman kept going as if nothing happened. Lead should’ve communicated and taken space as a precaution and the wingman shouldve followed the leads, albeit weird, maneuver.
At least that’s how I interpret the incident from this new perspective.
Viffered08@reddit
The wind was crazy on Sunday. My thought is headwind forced lead out of position.
ClearedInHot@reddit
Lead is never out of position. As a wingman it's your responsibility to react to lead... never the other way around. Not everything can be briefed...for example lead may have to react to an unexpected traffic conflict...and it's the wingman's responsibility to react accordingly. If wing ever loses sight of lead it's their responsibility to break out of the formation.
For an example of this, there's a video of the Thunderbirds flying in tight fingertip formation when lead has to maneuver aggressively to avoid traffic. Some of wingmen are able to stick with lead, while others break out.
malcifer11@reddit
>Lead is never out of position
Well there was that one time
BattleHall@reddit
You talking about that time the Thunderbirds lawndarted an entire formation?
Accidental-Genius@reddit
Does anyone have a link to the thread on this? Reddit search is dog shit.
BattleHall@reddit
Not a thread, but it’s known as the Indian Springs crash. A four-ship of Thunderbird T-38’s were practicing a diamond loop, something happened to the lead (investigation said stuck control surface, but I’ve also heard blackout/heart attack), loop went wide, and the other three followed lead right into the ground at full speed, 90 degree CFIT x4.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Thunderbirds_Indian_Springs_diamond_crash
Accidental-Genius@reddit
Thanks, and damn.
XilenceBF@reddit
Yeah I agree. It would defeat the purpose of having lead/wingman to have the lead react to his wingman. But in this video you can clearly see the lead losing altitude and attempt to correct this. Im guessing that thats an unexpected factor that lead to the collision.
Only-Amoeba-9308@reddit
If lead has placed the wingman into tactical formation or combat spread, they are within their rights to even commence an Immelman or Half Cuban Eight without any radio chatter. Parade formation is different, because the wingman is expected to be close enough to see hand signals.
From the flying I see that preceded the accident, they were not in parade formation, so the lead may perform any maneuver that airspace constraints allow without announcing it or warning the wingman.
TopMarzipan2108@reddit
I suspect the wingman lost sight of the lead briefly and started to descend when they should have broken off instead.
Bombadilo_drives@reddit
As an armchair pylote, I'm going with this take
NotMyRealUsername13@reddit
I had the same though that the lead is likely underneath him where he can’t see him. If true, big if, then the cause will largely be about him ending up in that blind spot to begin with, and only the investigation can figure that one out.
Dragon6172@reddit
I think it's the other way around. The wingman is who ended up on the bottom. Overshot a rejoin in the turn and ended up in a bad spot ahead and below lead. The other aircraft (inside the turn, ending above and behind the wingmans aircraft), maintains a pretty steady bank angle thru the turn and then rolls out like you would expect from a lead aircraft.
Turkstache@reddit
Former F-18 Pilot here (not Growler). In general deconfliction responsibility is on both with circumstantial weight. It's heavily weighted towards the jet flying form or in the join but a lead can't just maneuver at will unless the chosen technique allows for it.
In this case, it seems entirely on the wing, apparently knowing where lead was but going belly-up in close.
There are at least 2 tools they would have at their disposal (radar and DME) to give them an idea of relative location and/or proximity (not sure if they were in the link or if ADSB has been added yet but that means up to 4 tools). Generally speaking you should have sight of the other jet within a mile and a good handle on your geometry within 0.5 and if you go blind in close with any sort of closure you need to talk about it as an immediate priority.
In any fighter training people who go belly up in joins or don't call blind and start those procedures will face the fury if a thousand sons. It's a little bit counterproductive because some guys become hesitant to call it real-time amd wont confess/admit it after the fact. Growler dont have as much opportunity to build that instinct with their lack of BFM but that really shouldn't be an excuse here.
Also I've noticed multi-crewed aircraft (not just military) have poorer SA when it comes to visual to other aircraft and radio because there is an instinct to trust and rely on the other crewmember. I can see both in the wing jet assuming the other would say something instead of going straight to blind procedures which would basically run this way:
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
It's almost like he started an underrun, and then went heads down at the worst possible time. He as an entire sphere of possible bail out directions to avoid a collision. Why did he just plow into him? I suspect going heads-down for something.
Turkstache@reddit
Possible but I really dont think so. This is a classic case of trying to fly form and rejoin looking over your shoulder. I've saved myself and a student from this situation dozens of times.
We also discourage rejoins from the outside of the turn for many reasons to include this very one.
Uncabuddha@reddit
I can't imagine letting a student get in the habit of rejoining from ahead and outside. Keep your radius and distance and lead will be back in front in no time.
Turkstache@reddit
It's hard to write in the nuance of what I'm saying. The instructors arent letting it happen in the sense that standards are totally dropping out or they're letting the joins happen from weird places. It's that people are being taught to do procedures to the point where they aren't understanding what actually needs to happen and what they're looking for. You think doing procedures teaches that but really it only gets people there through regular exposure. They say all the right things but dont actually take the time to do it. The student just feels pressure to get the task out of the way out of fear of the pinkslip instead of being taught in a manner that doesnt induce anxiety. They let the joins be habitually low and sucked.
One of the examples I have from T-45 land is teaching how to fly all parts of the underrun. What most instructors do is have the students deliberately underrun (or capitalize on a legit one), bark at them to get their power up to reach perch. Pressure them to hold the position, then tell them it's ok to return and the student just tries to get the rejoin over with. They dont hold a standard on relative motion or position they way I think they should.
I not only made sure to break down normal joins more thoroughly, I did the same for all the underrun and rejoin mech. On bearing in a B+R (fundamental to the join in the video), I had them stop at various distances (start, middle, just before crossunder) and do up/down, left/right, in/out. Same goes for controlling the cross under. Same goes for flying in perch. Same goes for methodically flying the rejoin. The instruction says a person should be able to freeze relative position at any point of any basic form maneuver, I actually took the time to show them how.
My basic form flights were maybe .1 to .2 longer than average and the students were often upset that it seemed i held them to a higher standard. Well it was never the people I got to first that did the crazy shit in div or strike so I'd like to think it was working well.
Uncabuddha@reddit
Nice. An IP that has standards!
Uncabuddha@reddit
So you and Turkstache are saying the jet on the LEFT at the start of the video is the wingman in an overshoot? I am thinking it is lead with wingman on the right who runs into lead between the tails. BWTFDIK???
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Correct. That's the theory.
777XSuperHornet@reddit
Just curious, what makes you sure the pilot on the bottom was the wing and not the lead?
Turkstache@reddit
The first video made the roles look reversed, this new perspective makes it pretty clear. I think in hindsight it would be more clear to define them by inside vs. outside of the turn.
In a join the lead's primary job is to be a stable and predictable platform (context dependant). The apparent lead (On the inside of the turn. On top at collision) is keeping up a pretty consistent turn circle and basically waiting for the other jet to arrive. They might even be aware of an underrun and the underrun jet should report.
The mechanics of the apparent wing's jet (making all the effort to join and trying to do it quickly) show exactly the issue i described previously and an issue I have a lot of experience correcting.
stevecostello@reddit
Great information, and much of which I had assumed. Thank you for writing all this out.
I would not want to be in that carpet dance. Those are going to be unpleasant days.
And I cannot begin to fathom what was going through the minds of all four pilots the second after punch out. One second you are going a few hundred miles and hour, the next you've rocketed out of your aircraft and you are swinging under a chute, hopefully not headed into the crash zone. All while knowing bad things have happened, and the next few weeks are going to be distinctly unpleasant... ALL while floating a few feet or so from the other crew. Wild.
Puzzled-Formal-7957@reddit
The one above. Failed to maintain visibility. That is their #1 responsibility.
creepig@reddit
There will be an Accident Investigation Board. They're going to figure out exact percentages of fault.
ClearedInHot@reddit
It appears from the video that the wingman lost sight of lead. (You can't see another aircraft through the floor of the jet unless you've got a helmet like the F-35's.) Whenever a wingman loses sight of lead it's critical for them to break out of the formation, i.e, break away from lead's last known position.
It was not the leader's responsibility to avoid hitting the wingman. One of the bedrock principles of formation flying that students learn on Day One is, "Lead is never out of position".
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
That's possible, if he lost sight and was only looking straight out ahead instead of up. But then it's not like the lead is moving around randomly. When -2 lost sight, it would have been as lead was drifting up and aft in his canopy... So that's where you start looking.
CarminSanDiego@reddit
It’s the wingman’s fault. They own deconfliction. And they weren’t even doing any difficult maneuver. This is something student pilots with 50 hours are trained to execute safely. I don’t know what they were doing unless there was some flight control issue that caused uncommitted input
phaederus@reddit
Normal traffic rules do not apply in air shows, they usually sign waivers fly very specifically trained patterns. We can't know who/what is at fault without knowing what the pattern was supposed to be, or finding out more details.
Only-Amoeba-9308@reddit
That was certainly the case at the Dallas airshow a few years ago where the P-63 went belly up/blind and hit the B-17, but they were not part of the same formation. They were two independent aircraft flying a prebriefed traffic pattern.
For a section (2-plane formation) it can be an Airshow, normal ops at the NAS, CV ops, it doesn't matter where you are. The lead flies his/her jet and the wingman keeps sight and doesn't hit them. That's the cardinal rule.
phaederus@reddit
Yeah, if I remember correctly at Dallas the Air Boss was found to be mostly at fault due to insufficient briefings?
Kotukunui@reddit
…and changing the plan during the flight by giving imprecise instructions over the radio.
malcifer11@reddit
Swiss cheese model, it’s never just one thing. Plus, it’s impossible to know for sure why it happened until the investigation
tekn0lust@reddit
I am amazed all 4 ejections seem to have triggered simultaneously. So glad these pilots survived.
dabarak@reddit
It was possibly only two ejection initiations at almost the same time. What I mean by that is that typically the pilot will choose group eject (I think that's what it's called - it's been 40 years), so that if the pilot pulls the yellow handle the seat(s) behind the pilot goes first, with a delay between the two of about a second - maybe a fraction more or less.
In Vikings (RIP), and I assume in Prowlers (RIP), the two back seats would go first, then the two front seats. This helps reduce the risk of burns. If all four went at the same time, the people in the back could possibly get some burns (much less likely in the Viking because of the consoles the two in back had and the roughly six foot distance between the front and back seats. All of this is based on the assumption the pilot has chosen group eject (they probably have; it would be rare and foolish not to). Even in group eject, each person still has the option of ejecting on their own. Relying on the pilot to eject everyone is good and bad. Good because the pilot will hopefully know when it's time. Bad in that sometimes pilots try too long to save an aircraft.
In these two Growlers, the back seaters may or may not have ejected themselves. Mishap* reports are generally made public, but I think most people would forget to ever check months down the line when the investigation is done.
*It's funny, in a morbid way, how disasters are referred to as mishaps.
(Former S-4A sensor operator.)
Just_another_Masshol@reddit
Generally fly in after initiate which means if either of the crew pulls the handle, both go. For ONLY the pilot to go, maintenance has to put a holder on the ejection selection handle in the backseat to hold it in solo.
dabarak@reddit
From what I remember, it was different with the ESCAPAC 1-E1 seats. The pilot had a handle that could select one or the other. I can't remember if the copilot's seat did, but I'd guess it did. We flew with NFOs in the copilot's seat, except for the very first months I was in my squadron.
We also didn't have pins for the seats, but "headknockers" instead - a lever in the headrest that could safe or arm seats individually. (And obviously all four of us would safe our seats if one of us had to get up. The Four Musketeers - All for one, and one for all!) Maintenance personnel had pins that were an added level of safety, but those weren't installed in "up" S-3s.
Just_another_Masshol@reddit
Maybe. Im just telling you how it is in the G
macthebearded@reddit
I was just thinking about that. The decision to punch out happening basically simultaneously points to some pretty damn good training
BLARTYMACMUFFIN@reddit
Good training is not flying into your wingman in VMC.
No_Public_7677@reddit
Legitimately some awful formation flying
I-Here-555@reddit
Military pilots doing aerobatics tend to get decent training, yes.
FestivusFan@reddit
What does the rest of the video show about their training…
cfbillings@reddit
I'm not sure if the angle is misleading here but that still looked like a sketchy ejection. They were both still so close to each other. Better risky than dead I guess.
zerbey@reddit
A second later we'd have been paying tribute to them instead of celebrating their survival.
ClearedInHot@reddit
The seat selectors were probably set so that one crew member (probably the rear seater) ejected both seats. It tandem two-seat jets you can have various choices as to the sequencing of the seats. Each seat can be ejected individually, or a single crew member can eject both.
In jets with a single canopy it's usually important for the rear seat to go first, because if the rear seater is still in place when the front seater's rocket fires, the rear seater can be roasted.
In
No_Accident8684@reddit
was looking for that comment. same
djsnoopmike@reddit
Absolutely would love to be a fly on the wall for that debrief...
red_dragin@reddit
Imagine the looks being shot between the crews as they floated to the ground.
dumptruckulent@reddit
Yeah the look of “holy fuck I can’t believe we’re all alive”
thx1138a@reddit
That throwing up hands gesture that we usually reserve for bad drivers.
joggle1@reddit
You mind, I'm flyin' here!
Dragon6172@reddit
Probably would have pulled out the pen flares and just start blastin'....
creepig@reddit
The captain of the SIB is going to have some words for some people.
cturkosi@reddit
These were Navy flyers at an AFB, right?
What kinds of jokes do they usually rib each other with?
spicybright@reddit
"Welp.... that was expensive"
bhenghisfudge@reddit
Literally looks like two eagles mating.
dumptruckulent@reddit
That’s how phoenixes mate
Castun@reddit
They're Growlers, not Eagles. ☝️🤓 /s
marenicolor@reddit
Go Birds
type_E@reddit
Ysee, when two Growlers love each other very much...
Gardnersnake9@reddit
Yeah, thank goodness everyone survived, so now we can get a David Attenborough voice over about the jets' mating ritual without feeling guilty.
Humble-Cook-6126@reddit
Sir, these are hornets. /s
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Propwashed@reddit
Must be crazy to be one minute going a couple hundred miles an hour to floating down on a parachute
Glad all 4 got out safely
Sprintzer@reddit
If you’ve seen that POV video of a Russian pilot over Ukraine ejecting, it’s insane. One second he’s peacefully flying low over a farm, like a second later he’s ejected into the wheat field
suuntasade@reddit
Peacefully? Tf
Sprintzer@reddit
Read my other reply, bit of a joke - but compared to the craziness of a sudden ejection and crash, the flying over the nice crop field was peaceful.
Early_Macaroon_2407@reddit
Not really peacefully.
Sprintzer@reddit
Yeah it’s a joke.. but compared to the sudden eject, the flight over the nice farm field was peaceful
type_E@reddit
Relatively speaking
usps_made_me_insane@reddit
Don't ejections basically bar you from flying again because they make a trade of royalty fucking up your back vs dying?
Dismal_Love_1042@reddit
No. Lots of pilots and WSOs continue flying after ejecting. It can be a career changer or ender, but certainly not for all.
Sarpool@reddit
I believe the ejection being career ending was true back in the F-4 Phantom/Vietnam Era aircraft.
DudleyAndStephens@reddit
Mike Mullane became an astronaut after having ejected from an F-111.
StayJaded@reddit
F-111 had a unique ejection capsule that jettisoned the entire cockpit rather than individual ejection seats. When the handles were pulled, the crew remained safely encapsulated inside the separated cockpit module as parachutes deployed to cushion their impact.
Castun@reddit
"Might as well ride on top of a lit candle to space that is one malfunction away from an explosive death. No ejection seats in this one, though."
Archon_POM@reddit
Old times yea, I flew with an old F100 Super Sabre guy, the very old ejection seats were a rocket and they were basically 1 stage and compressed your spine, 2 ejections were dangerous.
Now it’s 13-21 steps even though it looks like one blast. Huge difference in the compression.
classyhornythrowaway@reddit
Seems like zero-zero ejection seats take into account attitude/speed, and vary the rocket deployment accordingly? All 4 ejected sideways but it looks “slow” and they barely have any velocity in any direction the moment their chutes open.
Kotukunui@reddit
Were’nt the very first ejection seats basically a 37mm cannon shell “blank” that extended a telescoping rod that flung the pilot seat above the vertical stabiliser? That would really compress your spine…
Archon_POM@reddit
No clue about the history, but probably, my understanding was the first “modern” ones were a single rocket charge and then things sort of developed from there.
The guy I knew got a bit smaller 🤏 every ejection
CrazyC77@reddit
Someone correct me on this if I’m wrong, but no you’re not automatically barred as long as they can still pass a pilot medical. Though I think three ejections is the max and then you are done.
GTI-Mk6@reddit
I feel like if you hit 3 ejections the problem is you, anyway. Unless you are a test pilot or something.
s0ul_invictus@reddit
what are they gonna fly? the last growler in the inventory? nobody is giving them any seat time. by the time the investigation is all said and done they wont be qualified to fly a kite.
WingedWomble@reddit
It’s not always the case. Some people eject and are fine. Others lose a their medical, some can’t fly fast jets but are cleared for multi engine etc.
All depends on the injuries sustained but isn’t a given that an ejection results in injury.
SoulOfTheDragon@reddit
No, but they can cause injuries preventing future flight operations. Rare nowdays with modern soft launch ejection systems.
MoccaLG@reddit
No 2 always under when behind, to not loose sight....
IFL_DINOSAURS@reddit
that is an insane new angle
TehBazz@reddit (OP)
I can’t make out how they hit at that angle and still both had space enough for the canopies to pop and eject
notam161126@reddit
To me it look like the trailing growler came down on the other one right between the tails.
Mad_kat4@reddit
I suspect it's the lower aircraft at fault really. They seemed to level out from the turn and slow down little then recommence the turn just before impact. They would also have had a better chance of eyeballing the other than the trailing Growler.
OnePinginRamius@reddit
It's the rear pilots fault. The moment he lost sight of the lead aircraft they should've called "break" and split different directions or he should've broke the formation to regain that line of sight. They practice this scenario. The exact same thing happened with a P-63 and a B-17 a few years back. With close formation maneuvers the trailing aircraft has to have line of sight with the lead aircraft to maintain separation. Sadly this was just a split second mistake and they are all lucky to be alive.
Deucer22@reddit
Man I hadn't seen that before and I looked it up. Wish I had skipped it.
OnePinginRamius@reddit
Sorry you had to see that. The only good thing is that they didn't have a lot of time to think about it and it was over quickly for them. Sad to lose those lives, sad to lose those historical airframes, sad to be another statistic.
Flight has always been inherently dangerous especially when putting on a show so close to the ground. You can still do everything perfect and things can go wrong.
BadTraditional401@reddit
Came here to say this: "The exact same thing happened with a P-63 and a B-17 a few years back." Airboss had responsibility on that one .... poorly communicated or no altitude deconfliction, but I'm not sure how that works with military
stevecostello@reddit
That's my take, as well. If they were following (which it appears they were) as soon as they lost sight (which looks like they would have at the beginning of that turn) they should have immediately broken off as the higher and inside aircraft. Recipe for disaster.
Dragon6172@reddit
Probably depends on who is lead and who is the wingman. Wingman is typically responsible for maintaining seperation.
That being said...I'd agree that the lower one is probably more at fault. They are on the outside of the turn, so better visibility to the other aircraft...and looks as though they make more control inputs during the turn while the other aircraft is a steady bank angle until roll out. Makes me believe the outside/lower aircraft overshot a re-join and ended up in a bad spot.
smartobject@reddit
Seems like the one ahead dropped down out of sight momentarily and the second one couldn’t see him and went lower and the touch happened???
fffarshy@reddit
seriously. every single time i see a new angle of this and i rewatch it, i get top gun flashbacks and brace for those guys to get goosed
SuperPimpToast@reddit
Did you really just verbify Goose's death? Absolutely amazing.
Ausgeflippt@reddit
Anything can verb.
frustrated_monk@reddit
This is a t-shirt quote
falcongsr@reddit
https://old.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/ky81y/verbing_weirds_language/
QuevedoDeMalVino@reddit
English has its issues, but verbalization is awesome.
stevecostello@reddit
Did you just verbalize verb?
QuevedoDeMalVino@reddit
Did you metaverbalize?
zthunder777@reddit
I said the same thing to my wife earlier today, seems we’re making it a thing now.
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emptyfuller@reddit
Duck! Duck, Goose!
collegefootballfan69@reddit
I goose my wife all the time but she doesn’t like it
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Independent-Reveal86@reddit
They were just lucky that the cockpit and nose section of each aircraft was offset so the bottom crew could eject safely.
DroidLord@reddit
Are you a top or a bottom?
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crowleycat20@reddit
That had to be the most awkward parachute ever
admiral_sinkenkwiken@reddit
Close enough almost to have a fistfight on the way down
Phiddipus_audax@reddit
There was spitting for sure.
Xineth240@reddit
................welp...............
Chickenbutt-McWatson@reddit
By some stroke of luck it looks like the bottom plane canopy is offset by like 2 metres
gayj_exe@reddit
I was JUST telling my partner how fucking lucky they were that they weren't directly on top of each other so the bottom plane's pilots could eject
Crazy__Donkey@reddit
There are many more that about to pop up.
Comfortable-Yak-2555@reddit
2 pilots that should never fly again
bartman1819@reddit
What's the reasonable breadth of consequence for the aviators and WSO? Do they get another jet and a new callsign or do they get grounded/reassigned?
Speckwolf@reddit
I mean, they are 1-2 cm shorter now…
F14Scott@reddit
Looks like dash2, the starboard jet, was struggling to maintain position on his lead, falling behind. When he tried to catch up by turning inside, he lost sight under his nose and settled belly down onto lead's spine.
no-lift@reddit
Amazing footage, almost didn’t seem real the way they intertwined. Any ex naval aviators in here? Do you think they’ll never be allowed to fly again?
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
it will be investigated, maybe something punitive for the wingman, but unless they suffer medicals, I see no reason why the pilots would not be allowed to fly again.
it takes years and costs millions to train a Navy Pilot.
you don't just toss them on the scrap heap because of a split second mistake, even one that costs a couple of hundred million.
you learn from it, and move on.
SugarBeefs@reddit
That does depend on the nature of the mistake though.
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
it does.
willfully, maliciously poor and dangerous airmanship will (sometimes) get you shitcanned (unless you fly a B52 and leadership is crap) but a swiss cheese of mistakes generally will not.
we'll have to see what comes out of the investigation.
SugarBeefs@reddit
Then again, you don't even need to lose your wings to effectively lose your career if the black mark on your record will keep you from further promotions or commands.
Obviously from where we're all sitting it's a lot of guesswork, but I don't think I'm going out on too much of a limb if I state that none of the 4 crew come out of this looking good. Four pairs of eyes and four brains across two jets and you manage to run into each other on a rejoin in good weather during an air show?
I'm sure a tapestry of little mistakes and procedural shortcomings are at play here as well, but I can't shake the notion that a large part of this is just the momentary rush-of-shit-to-the-brain absence of some basic airmanship principles.
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
it all goes to shit very quickly at 300 knots.
wingman overshot, lead corrected/manoeuvred just at the wrong moment and splat.
it will land on the Wingman, as it is his primary duty to first and foremost keep the lead in visual at all times and avoid collision and he did not break away as soon as he lost sight of the lead.
I can't see the lead pilot or the Lead WSO getting shitcanned, nor the wingmans WSO.
If anyone cops the heat, it will be the wingman.
SugarBeefs@reddit
2 pilot is the most guilty party, but again, four pairs of eyes across two jets and this still happens. That's a CRM thing too.
KirkieSB@reddit
Not a naval aviator here but someone very interested in (naval) aviation.
I do not think that the demo team will get grounded forever. They are too much a great advertising tool for the Navy to show off. Maybe the "climax" of every air show?
Additionally, people forget fast. I expect this incident to be out of the news within a few weeks unless something really grave will be found out, e.g. willful manipulation of a jet or an intoxicated pilot. The news caravan moves on and that is unfortunately in the interest of the forces. 🤷♂️
MrMajestic12@reddit
"aMeRiCa HaS tHe BeSt pIlOtS AnD mIlItArY"
an_older_meme@reddit
That’s a new one.
OptimusSublime@reddit
I see the problem. They zigged when they should have zagged.
victorsmonster@reddit
It looks like the trailing aircraft let the lead aircraft get below his field of view and lost track of him. IIRC a similar problem led to the 2022 Dallas airshow midair. That was a P-63F known for having poor visibility out of the cockpit
CapitanShinyPants@reddit
That was the air boss’ fault.
mnztr1@reddit
Well that flight cost somewhat more then the typical $19,500/hour.
Myfooty94@reddit
They look like two jets hugging each other
samjhandwich@reddit
When a girl jet likes a boy jet they do a special hug
marcosscriven@reddit
So far as I can tell, I think they were both boy jets.
rotardy@reddit
I heard one jet was a girl jet.
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rotardy@reddit
I’m not farming for karma. Thinking I give a shit what you or anyone else here thinks is a a great example of hubris.
Rather my post referred to the fact that one of the demo team crews was actually female.
IcyNote6@reddit
Well they are navy jets...
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Salvia_Salamander@reddit
Seamen of the skies 🫡
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RadiantZote@reddit
140 million dollar hug 🫂
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JaggedMetalOs@reddit
Looks like a physics engine glitch where 2 game objects get stuck intersecting each other.
Gooners_For_Ukraine@reddit
It really does boggle my mind how the seemingly we’re basically floating in place for like 2 seconds or so after hitting each other
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
it's astonishing.
you can tell both pilots went full throttle the moment they collided, and that massive amount of thrust kept them 'hovering' for 2 seconds almost. before gravity took over.
remarkable footage.
utterly amazing there was enough room for all for pilots to eject with hitting either the plane or themselves.
inky_strawberry@reddit
How did they not catch on fire after the point of contact?
Kotukunui@reddit
The fuel tanks weren’t breached on initial impact. They were flying “clean” without drop tanks so no fuel for the fire until they hit the ground.
2wicky@reddit
For a brief moment in time, those two jets morphed in to a rocket ship with 4 engines
PhysicalConsistency@reddit
Looks like me running over my wingman in Ace Combat.
Champlainmeri@reddit
Is that we’re calling it now? That was more than a hug.
waltarrrrr@reddit
The Death Hug™️
zevonyumaxray@reddit
"Hugging". OK we can go with that.
theLuminescentlion@reddit
bye $130 Million
solocmv@reddit
$140 million fuckup.
MartMXFL@reddit
Fed will print more.
Equivalent_Candy5248@reddit
These modern planes with a big composite percentage in their structure seem to take a lot more punishment than planes made of aluminum or other old-tech materials.
The F-35 that crashed on a carrier a few years ago also remained in one part initially.
type_E@reddit
Composites rather shatter before they bend
KirkieSB@reddit
Indeed. You know about the Monocoque survival cell in Formula 1 racing? That is safety engineering of composite materials to the max.
https://youtu.be/KNrOMduY8zg?si=6mBHKb5qa7M9RLHe
theunixman@reddit
That's a hell of a biplane.
Dontcallmeskaface@reddit
This is probably the most bizarre crash I’ve ever seen. How they latched together, the brief hovering, and ALL 4 ejected and had chutes. Wow.
OnePinginRamius@reddit
Physics is wild. The G load on their bodies when both planes slowed to almost 0 air speed must've been intense and the moment they could they pulled the handles.
iksbob@reddit
The angle of the camera views and distance has a lot to do with that appearance of floating. I'm pretty confident they still had some ground speed moving away from the camera, though pitched up that far, it was surely falling fast. The aerodynamic wake of the bottom plane, along with engine air intake of the upper plane are my guesses as to why they seemed stuck together.
ImYourHumbleNarrator@reddit
as evidenced by the distance from distance between the chutes and the smoke/explosion. the pitch up was clearly crazy G's and caused them all to eject right at that moment, but so many people in here commenting how they 'hovered' or some shit lol.
verstohlen@reddit
Yeah, it looks like a glitch in the Matrix or something. I almost expected to see a couple of black cats walk by after the crash.
Sprintzer@reddit
I wonder if the float has anything to do with the raw power of F/A-18 class. That is, they do high alpha passes all the time because F/A-18s have a shitload of thrust and have good aerodynamics for it
So in the latching moment, both pilots probably gave it full power which allowed the jets to weirdly hover for a bit.
lewisfairchild@reddit
https://apnews.com/article/air-show-idaho-incident-lockdown-cf2c98134c068cfcb8987e68a3177c62
collin2477@reddit
can you imagine just floating down next to the guys that just rammed you lmao. gotta be a real weird sense of happiness surviving and seeing 4 chutes and being really really annoyed.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
The freakiest thing about this is that the initial collision looks like AI "imagining" what a mid-air should look like.
I can't help but wonder if the reason this went as well as it did is because both birds weren't fully gassed up and were in show profile.
BiggyShake@reddit
I was thinking it was like some game not being able to handle collision+aero physics properly and they just spin around in midair tangled together.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
Like eagles mating.
ultanna@reddit
Before that angle, I couldn't councive how they collided. Now it's clearer.
Thanks for your post
littlelowcougar@reddit
Yeah the other video floating around just visually doesn’t make sense. This one is def clearer, you can see what let to the bizarre attitude.
iceguy349@reddit
Yeah feels like a bizarre little dance created by a mix of drag and thrust from the engines.
You can see the weight on the back of the lower F-18 pushes its nose up then drag takes over and the plane is pointed vertical for a few moments being held aloft by the engine thrust, then the noses drop, the pilots punch out, and the planes nosedive.
flyguy60000@reddit
This angle makes a lot more sense than the one I saw on the news. Looks like the second jet momentarily may have lost sight of the lead jet so he pitched down to see him……although it also looks like he may have sped up slightly which didn’t help the situation. Happy both crew made it out safely.
BlackSchuck@reddit
One doesnt just councel how the jets concieved so easily without quintuplets.
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DerekCoaker80@reddit
Was curious as to how Hornets mate...
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Totally_Not_A_Bot_FR@reddit
Wow, never heard this one before. Super original
No_Public_7677@reddit
Waiting to see this talked about on the Mover and Gonky show
Taptrick@reddit
Crazy reaction time from the guy to say “Ok we got 4 parachutes!”
reductase@reddit
what's so crazy about it? seems pretty mundane to me.
Taptrick@reddit
Good awareness of what he’s witnessing. Immediately understood that there were 4 crew members ejecting and that they seemed safe. A lot of “lay people” would barely understand what they’re looking at or would be speechless for at least a couple seconds.
Thequiet01@reddit
I appreciate that he was trying to reassure people.
BlackVQ35HR@reddit
Oh you k ow those 4 were talking about that after they ejected.
RdtRanger6969@reddit
Uncoordinated lead a/c climb.
Trail was either distracted by (?), or did not know/anticipate the lead climbing.
Acetone5050@reddit
Is anybody else visualizing these four flight crew screaming expletives at each other on the way down? "Why did you hit me, motherfucker???!!!"
TehBazz@reddit (OP)
Does anyone know if it’s normal to have two people in the cockpit even in an air show? Both planes had two people eject. Are they both pilots?
johnnuke@reddit
The F-18 Growler has two operators, one pilot and one electronic warfare operator.
littlelowcougar@reddit
Yeah but like, how much wizzo shiz needs to be done at an airshow. Are they not single-pilot capable aircraft? I mean I kind of get it, you and your WSO are a team, you have a flow for every flight.
Dragon6172@reddit
Weight and balance probably. Either a WSO (or whatever Growlers call their back seater) or having to throw in some ballast. Plus...flying is training. WSO probably has some responsibility for helping with situational awareness during formation flying....
bozoconnors@reddit
huh? It's an F-18 (/EA-18G), not a Cessna. It's gonna burn a human's weight in JP-5/8 on just the takeoff roll lol.
Castun@reddit
That was my thinking, they could help with callouts of where the other plane is...sadly that seemingly didn't happen here.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
The don't fly without a back seater. Partially for the ego of the back-seat community, and partially because the whole point is to recruit future aviators, so that means showcasing both roles.
Khamvom@reddit
Safety and training, Wizzo is still gonna be managing some systems + workload. They also need their flight hours.
TehBazz@reddit (OP)
So that’s what I thought but is the operator necessary to fly? Like why have someone in that seat at an airshow?
Haunting_Lime308@reddit
Yeah i was wondering this too. I do atc and anytime ive ever worked an emergency on an f18 id say 7/10 times when I ask for souls on board they'll say 1. The other times are usually when they are training flights. So I guess its possible they were training new people during an airshow but I dont think they'd be actively jamming radar at an airshow.
DietCherrySoda@reddit
You do ATC and you don't know that there are different kinds of F18s?
Haunting_Lime308@reddit
Theyre all blips on the radar screen, a 747 looks exactly the same as a skyhawk to me. What i care about in a plane is what I can expect out of it in regards to climb rates, speed, turning radius and just general performance and navigation capabilities. They could have 5 people stuffed into one and having a tea party on board it wouldnt really change how I look at the plane.
eniretakia@reddit
Thank you for the mental image of the tea party. Gave me a chuckle.
DietCherrySoda@reddit
Sure, I just figured that most ATC have a bit of a personal interest in planes.
Haunting_Lime308@reddit
Some completely need out on planes and some don't just depends on the person. Id say most of interested when we're working planes that you rarely see like a p51 or a dc3. The thing is too that a lot of the time the flight plans and data blocks we have for the fighters will just say F18. Occasionally youll see f18e or one of the other designations, but theyre not specific all the time, so even someone who knew the difference between the variations couldnt tell without asking.
flynavy46@reddit
There are both two-seat and single seat operational Super Hornet squadron. Two-seaters are not just for training. If you worked an emergency where they said 1 soul on board, then in all likelihood you were talking to someone flying an F/A-18E, not an F/A-18F with an empty back seat. Operational two-seat squadrons, with very rare exceptions, don’t go flying with their back seat unoccupied. The same goes for Growler squadrons. Their habit patterns are built around working as a crew. Plus, EWOs/WSOs need hours/currency too.
Eisbaer811@reddit
The second person isn't strictly necessary, but Growlers NEVER fly single seat, to make sure not a single (very expensive) flying hour of the aircraft is wasted.
Growlers always operate as a crewed aircraft, and every single flight hour is used for training and to build proficiency in a crewed aircraft.
They aren't flying that airshow for "fun", but partially also to build regular proficiency for both people. They aren't practicing electronic warfare there, but how to manage radios and communication, how to do crew coordination, probably some radar stuff for the EWO etc. etc.
thundercheif23@reddit
Possible it's also for showing the plane normally uses two people. Air shows are big recruiting tools for the military. Better to show an accurate example, it would stick in the mind more than an empty backseat.
Spirited_Voice_7191@reddit
Spotter
Minimob0@reddit
On that note, I tried asking in r/aviation , but didn’t have enough karma for the sub.
What is the point of air shows? They just seem like a massive waste of tax payer money with an added risk of death or dismemberment.
GurthNada@reddit
There are two types of demonstration teams. First type is an entirely dedicated unit, like the Blue Angels, the Thunderbirds, RAF Red Arrows, French Air Force Patrouille de France, etc. They fly specially modified aircraft that are not necessarily 100% mission-capable, and demonstration flying is all they do, all year long.
The other type is a team put ut by an operational unit, using standard operational aircraft. For the selected crews, demo is only a part-time job : once the demo season is over, they go back to operational duties. So the demo is also flown under operational conditions, meaning two crew members in the EA-18G case.
Kotukunui@reddit
Most airshows I have been involved with say, “only essential flight crew on display flights”. This became a rule after a few high profile show crashes where the aircraft had passengers aboard. So I guess essential means two when it comes to Growlers.
SIR_RAGER@reddit
I believe on these jets one is a pilot and one is a weapons system officer. Not sure about procedures for air shows.
Seaguard5@reddit
Why do they stick together like that in the end?
aadoqee@reddit
2 big jet engines worth of intake vacuum
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
The wings and tail from the bottom plane literally dug into the top plane, wedging them together.
That-Makes-Sense@reddit
Well, the good thing is, the maintenance crews for those F-18s got the night off.
colin8651@reddit
Probably not, I think blame gets focused everywhere till they narrow down to the fault of the issue.
dustsmoke@reddit
Who were the pilots?
BoludoConInternet@reddit
crazy collition, waiting on mover's video analysis for this one lol
13hockeyguy@reddit
As this was an airshow, i wonder if either aircraft had a go-pro filming from the cockpit. It would be really interesting to see this from the pilot POV. Of course, even if there is cockpit video, the DOD probably doesn’t want to publicize the loss of 100 million+ in aviation hardware.
RedHuey@reddit
I don’t know the pilots in question here, but based on previous accidents, people who don’t regularly fly like this, should not do so. Despite whatever rank and airframe experience they have.
Calvin_BrooksX97@reddit
Might be just the new viewpoint, but a second later and the bottom crew could have ejected into the bottom of the nose of the top aircraft. Most chaotic slow crash I have seen.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
The seat is balanced with its shape and CG placement to self-right as the rocket is firing. Then there's a stabilizing parachute that helps further. Finally a separate rocket fires whose only purpose is to extend the parachute.
wiggum55555@reddit
Been seeing this incident all day and still cannot get over how instant-quickly the pilots punched out.. like, that's a HUGE decision to abandon the aircraft but they took split seconds to know it was needed. That is amazing discipline and training kicking in there.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
No there is no auto eject system. And honestly that ejection was kind of delayed. They were probably stunned until the jets started flipping around, at which point it was obvious it was time to get out.
TheBusinessMuppet@reddit
Man, probably brief moment where they both paused in the air probably saved their lives and gave them enough time to eject.
Lavasioux@reddit
So weird how they appear to stick together mid air.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
I think they got wedged together. Like cutting into each others airframes which got them stuck.
Denninosyos@reddit
Yeah the lower ones vertical stab definitely sliced into the main fuselage of the upper one.
pagusas@reddit
First video I couldn’t really tell how this happened, this one makes it look like the bottom jet, for some reason, decided to gain altitude and collided with the top jet who seemed to be maintaining its path, am I reading that right?
cuntmong@reddit
High stakes re-enactment of my dating life
Hi8usy@reddit
“I don’t want to go to even one more day of work anymore to fund billionaire dollar airplanes at air shows”
- Fucken Everyone not military affiliated
N314ER@reddit
And that’s how the jet powered biplane came to be.
balsadust@reddit
Isn't that how baby planes are made?
Silver_Mention_3958@reddit
Aww, I thought that was part of the show, given the gay abandon of military spending...
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flightwatcher45@reddit
Can't wait for the pilots POV videos. Wow!
OkResource9877@reddit
2 needs some retraining.
Velosprints@reddit
I would agree.
enataca@reddit
The second they landed EMS arrives “let me know when you’re ready to copy a number”
xitizen7@reddit
These air shows seem more dangerous than I recall.
bake_gatari@reddit
Magnets?
KaJuNator@reddit
How do they work?
bake_gatari@reddit
Science bitch!
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JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
"Where'd he go?"
"Where'd whoooo goooo?"
vapemyashes@reddit
I think they are such precise crews when they realized something was wrong because the two planes were in the same place they immediately did the exact same thing to prep for ejection which made the two planes in the same place do the same thing in the same plane and become one
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Ironic you’re giving them props for prednisone after they just flew into one another…
pibroch@reddit
Prednisone? I mean, if one of the pilots was sick, that definitely is something the investigators will be interested in.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Autocorrect.
nineyourefine@reddit
One thing that's pretty amazing is how they both ejected at almost the same time. Neither crew had 2nd thoughts or anything, and clearly shows how their training kicks in.
ex-apple@reddit
Can someone explain how the eject and parachutes work? It seems like they ejected almost downward. How do they flip around and make sure the canopies open upward?
dec0y@reddit
Maybe a dumb question but is each pilot responsible for ejecting their own seat, or do both eject together if either pilot triggers it?
BigmacSasquatch@reddit
In the Growler, like most fighter jets, ejection is manually initiated (pull the “GTFO” handles). Since they are two seaters though, if either crew pulls the handles, both seats will eject.
The only plane I can think of with autoeject is the F35B. While hovering, it has a design quirk where if the lift can were to fail, the aircraft would pitch forward and enter an unsafe ejection envelope faster than a pilot could react.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Both seats go off if either handle is pulled.
CouchPotatoFamine@reddit
It used to eject both until Goose was killed then they redesigned it.
Ferrarisimo@reddit
Dude who downvoted you has no sense of humor…
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pezdal@reddit
Lesson is: if you make a joke about Goose, Duck, Duck, Duck
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Thequiet01@reddit
Angry upvote
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autofan06@reddit
Usually various modes they can have them set to fire both or individual I think generally front seat always fires both but some modes back seat can fire alone.
charlespigsley@reddit
Who’s at fault here?
rygelicus@reddit
Top plane most likely, it looks like the lead plane leveled off an the wingman continued to descend even though they had lost sight of the lead. The failure would be in losing sight of the lead plane you are in formation with and then a second failure of not sliding to the right, up or left (air space you can actually see and is clear) until you get eyes on the lead again. Very expensive mistake they were very lucky to survive.
AngryPhillySportsFan@reddit
I legitimately thought they somehow ended up belly to belly allowing all 4 to eject. Nothing short of pure luck all 4 made it after seeing this angle
SomeInside1021@reddit
Auto ejection, im waiting for updates...
BigmacSasquatch@reddit
Growler does not have auto eject.
PlusminusDucky@reddit
I cant help but laugh at the thought of all four of them slowly gliding down to the ground together while trying to avoid eye contact with the pilots of the other aircraft
windjetman62@reddit
This is the Texas Air show crash all over again
Comfortable-Yak-2555@reddit
That is some piss poor flying right there
OnePinginRamius@reddit
I wonder if they were yelling at each other on the way down
Chicago_Blackhawks@reddit
My goodness
2_Bros_in_a_van@reddit
This looks like -2 overshot a rejoin went blind, then lead pulled up into -2. Lead had absolutely no clue that plane was on top of them.
SIR_RAGER@reddit
Definitely losing his wings on this one.
LoetherS@reddit
I mean, the plane that came in from behind on top couldn't see below himself and must have assumed the one below was going faster or had moved away.
And the one below in front wasn't looking back, (is that part of the RIO/copilot, job in something like this?) . So they both probably couldn't see each other. Im assuming they have to disable collision avoidance tech when flying that close anyway.
I have so many questions. Just glad everyone is alive to figure it out.
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
note: there IS no collision avoidance tech.
if you decide to go nuts and fly your F18 into another plane, there is no tech onboard that is going to stop you .
Benocrates@reddit
I watched a Ward Carrol interview the other day with a pilot who was working on the development of the Auto Ground Collision Avoidance System and newer system that would automatically avoid collisions as well (ACAS). Not on F18s yet but may be in the future.
Only-Amoeba-9308@reddit
The wingman should never lose sight of the lead. If they do, they call "lost sight" and take prebriefed measures to gain separation.
VAQ-130 was my old squadron, back when we flew less pretty airplanes. Despite the seriousness of what happened, the 4 chutes brought back a grim smile. We had one pilot and 3 ECMOs.
Tysonviolin@reddit
Seems like an investigation will need to happen first to determine the circumstances, no?
AUniquePerspective@reddit
Sure, but you can't just attempt a Kolvoord Starburst in the age of cellphone cameras and not expect to get called out right away.
Celemourn@reddit
That was some pretty quick reaction time, from assessment to gtfo
qtpss@reddit
Someone thought it was mating season?
HonorAndKittens@reddit
Glad they made it. I wonder if this type of incident can result in new safety regulations.
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Yeah. There won’t be any more 2-ship growler demo.
Livingforabluezone@reddit
That is the same angle.
Twitter_2006@reddit
Hope the pilots are safe.
Hawkerdriver1@reddit
Dance 💃 of death.
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penelopiecruise@reddit
Those were bound together
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Roy4Pris@reddit
Babe, wake up, latest commercial for Martin-Baker just dropped
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Pure_Set9015@reddit
I wonder what alarms immediately started blasting in their headsets lol
inane_musings@reddit
'Rubber dog shit to Hong Kong'
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BboyTypeR@reddit
When 2 F18s fall in love, you get an F36
I used my calculator for this joke
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Serenaded@reddit
Once they go through claims court he's going to be paying this off at $50 per week for checks notes 48,000 years
KaJuNator@reddit
They wouldn't have to do that if they had gotten the extra collision insurance.
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Messernacht@reddit
Isn't this how Piper Cubs are made?
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jojobdot@reddit
Holy hell it’s a literal miracle they all ejected. WOW.
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Realistic-Bowl-566@reddit
Looks like he caught the jet wash and lost altitude.
reddituserperson1122@reddit
No he just flew directly into him.
vicious_delicious_77@reddit
I swore this crash was AI generated the first 5 times I saw it. Unreal looking.
Galwran@reddit
Looks even more stuck from this angle
vbagate@reddit
Amazing bottom jet was able to eject. I’d love to hear the cockpit audio of that.
elinamebro@reddit
The pilot up top is fuckkkked, mostly never going to fly again if the collision is from pilot error.
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
absolute bollox.
even if it is pilot error, it takes years and costs millions to train an air force pilot.
to be selected to fly a Growler, you have to be very, very good.
mistakes happen, you admit them, you analyse them, you learn from them, and you move on.
as long as it was not malicious incompetence or drug related, there is no way they will pull that pilots wings.
even if his mistake did just cost the US taxpayer 260 million dollars - Growlers are bloody expensive!
elinamebro@reddit
Uhh.. might be different where you're at but here a pilot can be stripped of their wings committing major flight violations. If a mishap investigation concludes that an avoidable crash was a result of reckless and willful pilot error, they can face permanent grounding. Also literally 2 fighter pilots lost their wings in 2011 for flying to low during a flyover a stadium so this pilot is fucked if they're at fault.
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
as you said first, only if he is found to have been flying in a willfully reckless manner.
just making a mistake is generally not enough to get your wings yanked.
elinamebro@reddit
My guy. They literally ground 2 pilot permanent for just flying too low, if this was a pilot error mistake they're fucked. Idk how you're not understanding this lol?
fireinthesky7@reddit
From this angle, it's pretty easy to see how he could have momentarily lost sight of the other plane. And it's very possible the leading one pulled up just slightly early.
ReturnOfTheSaint14@reddit
Super glad both crews are alive and okay.
Now,this reminds me on when my teammates decides to "hug" me with their jets on War Thunder because i dared to move on their path for one picosecond
KirkieSB@reddit
I wonder what they wanted to perform.🤔
Anyone here with experience of the demo team's shows? I have never been to a military air show.
RentAscout@reddit
Did the wingman exit the turn too fast that setup blindspots for both aircraft and total loss of SA?
Thebraincellisorange@reddit
can't tell anything until the investigation is complete.
we won't know if the lead got out of position and corrected and the trail didn't have enough time to react, or something else.
regardless it is the wingmans #1 job to not run into the lead aircraft, so most of the fault will land on the wingman.
Nok1a_@reddit
Im so glad the one on top did not blocked the canopy of the one below, cos for me it feels so close to that to happened
KirkieSB@reddit
TG! The Goose effect did not happen.
TayloidPogo92@reddit
Damn dude
Awkward_Judge6954@reddit
This is not how plane reproduction works guys
mo0siego0sie@reddit
Well, when a mommy plane and a daddy plane love each other very much… it’s impossible to keep them apart
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HillarysFloppyChode@reddit
Interestingly, bald eagles mate in a similar fashion.
ForkzUp@reddit
They don't. They do a mating dance in the air, but mate on the ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_eagle#Reproduction
HillarysFloppyChode@reddit
Mating dance is part of mating, so technically not wrong.
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Far_Journalist4259@reddit
noobwork
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mort7776@reddit
Just a mating ritual
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MissionAttitude216@reddit
When copulation goes wrong..
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Srihari_stan@reddit
These U.S pilots need better training.
I’m sure people from the third world fly jets a lot better. The culture is different
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Xineth240@reddit
Man, it almost looks like they could have pulled out of it. I know that's impossible for myriad reasons, but the sheer thrust of those jets pushed them both upward, keeping them in a twisted suspension for a good few seconds.
I'd be very curious to see simulated recreations where saving your life isn't a factor.
ninjapizzadude@reddit
Looks like they got structurally stuck at the moment of contact and couldn’t separate. At least they’re all alive.
IcedClout@reddit
Seems like they were both in each others blind spots
juanonymouss@reddit
You can see debris hit the left-most parachute but luckily it wasn’t at an angle that would’ve punctured it
icecreamsandwiches1@reddit
Someone is getting fired.
Former-Flow6802@reddit
I would absolutely call that pilot error
oldfarmjoy@reddit
The black boxes will be interesting.
fiddlestickspoo@reddit
Are they in trouble now
oldfarmjoy@reddit
The lower one looks like it hit some turbulance. I'd assume it's the higher one's error, since they had better line of sight, looking down?
hhawkes73@reddit
I can literally hear the "Two's blind" call in my head...ouch.
Glad they made it out!
FlagrantTomatoCabal@reddit
The bottom plane was lucky the canopy wasn't obstructed by the top plane.
pezdal@reddit
Impressive technology, those ejection seats.
Are the survivors all shorter now?
cyberentomology@reddit
The jet underneath got real lucky that the jet on top didn’t block their ejection.
racerviii@reddit
Plot twist. This was part of the air show.
TheVulgarApe@reddit
Simply jaw dropping.
Meet-me-behind-bins@reddit
I was at the RIAT in Fairford when the MIG 29’s collided. This one is just as crazy. Glad they got out safely. I wonder who fucked up and why?
13Fleas@reddit
The trailing aircraft being above the lead aircraft is the disaster. He cannot see the lead aircraft. This should not have happened.
Admirable-Apricot137@reddit
So interesting that they seem to literally be held together by a forcefield until they hit the ground.
ObviouslyRealPerson@reddit
Makes me wonder if they had words for each other on the way down
Pworld10@reddit
How the planes just stopped forward momentum like this is insane. I can’t even wrap my head around that. Also them not breaking apart on contact like that.
Miracle.
DeeDeeRibDegh@reddit
They literally got stuck….like a magnet.
Prior_Russki34@reddit
Lol whole gang prolly dropping down in silence or " Well this is a shitshow "
darkpyro2@reddit
I was holding my breath. Those four parachutes are such a great sight.
bugabooandtwo@reddit
I'm no expert on flying, but it seems like the second plane (the one on the top of the hug) felt a bit 'off' from the very beginning of that video. Not nearly as smooth as the lead plane.
Did they just lose sight of the lead plane, or was something else going on there?
Jumpy-Locksmith6812@reddit
Guess ejected in 5s then plane hit ground 7s later. So they probably had another 0.5-1s of grace? Or less time than reddit takes to save this comment.
botchman@reddit
It's so fucking crazy they collided, it's even crazier no one died
Pretty_Marsh@reddit
“And this next maneuver is called ‘Two’s Blind!’”
VerStannen@reddit
Most calm announcement of an air show crash.
Four chutes is pretty key.
drag0nslayer02@reddit
Next new angle bout to be the POV
BrewCityChaserV2@reddit
Sounds like fake AI commentary lol
russellvt@reddit
Same angle I saw previously...???
William_Shaftner@reddit
What a strange feeling that all must have been. All those forces in one direction and then you're aiming towards the sky hardly moving. How weird it must have been to process what was going on.
skyfaring55@reddit
Maybe some bleeping but the people watching seem fairly calm
Bio_Menace@reddit
Now it makes much more sense
post-explainer@reddit
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