Picard got it wrong with Jono
Posted by shoopstoop25@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 47 comments
So the Enterprise rescues these 14 year old soldiers from a wreck and find a human that hat been kidnapped when the aliens attacked and killed most of his family and all of his outpost when he was a baby.
But now, because the kid was used to the alien culture picard say 'ah, yeah, they've had him for 13 years, might as well let them keep him.'
What in the world?? Maybe this was more realistic in the 80s? But also wasn't there a mass panic in the US about child kidnappings around then?
SamuraiGoblin@reddit
This is precisely what made ST great. It didn't spoon feed you, it looked at very nuanced situations and gave you enough information to make up your own mind.
You have your opinion about it, it differs from what the writers wanted to do with the story. That's a wonderful thing. Perhaps you will changing your mind about the issue, or maybe you will double down, but either way, you are thinking about a complex social issue.
bongart@reddit
Let's be clear, he was found alive as a baby, by the people who killed his parents. That is an important, unmentioned fact. He was taken by a man, who had lost a son in conflicts with humans, as a replacement for that son. It was less an act of mercy or compassion, than it was an act of "Your race owes me a son."
MrWolfe1920@reddit
Yes, but what was the alternative? Leave the baby to die? Kill him? The fact that he took Jono in and raised him as his own is still better than the alternative. Plenty of biological parents have kids for less noble reasons, or for no reason at all.
bongart@reddit
Why didn't you list "returning the infant" as one of the possible alternatives?
MindlessNectarine374@reddit
To your enemy?
bongart@reddit
Good alternatives and bad alternatives are still alternatives.
Returning the infant could have been part of a overture to peace. If only a few years had passed before hostilities had ended, that still very young child could have been returned with little to no trauma.
The comment I replied to asked "what alternatives were there?". Returning the child was one of them.
SamuraiGoblin@reddit
Yes, that's precisely what makes it complex.
Darmok47@reddit
It's interesting that Sisko basically made the opposite decision with Rugal from the episode Cardassians.
osunightfall@reddit
I think the nuances matter. Rugal was kidnapped from his father in a targeted act. Rescuing a child in the aftermath of a battle during war has a somewhat different implication.
Dashcamkitty@reddit
I felt that was wrong but I could see life for a cardassian on Bajor would be hard. Jono seemed completely accepted and integrated by his adopted race.
CaptainMatticus@reddit
Jono wanted to stay with them and he no longer self-identified as human.
There are real-world examples of this, like when early white settlers in the American West would get killed in a raid and their children would be raised up by the people who killed their parents. These white people would readily identify as belonging to that tribe and who are we to deny them?
This kid wasn't just some kidnapping victim. He was more or less a POW who only knew what it was to be like his captors. And he was willing to sacrifice his life rather than leave them. Find me a bunch of examples of kidnapping victims who were willing to die for their captor and I'll be willing to concede to your argument, but I don't think you will be able to do it.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
I'm sorry but this is a horrible take. You're saying that as long as the kid is young enough to be indoctrinated then the kidnapping is valid. This is absurd. The alien captain committed a war crime and not only should he not be rewarded for this, he should be put on trial.
EvernightStrangely@reddit
He's not saying that. Ripping a child away from the only family and life he knows would deal significant mental trauma to Jono and would pit both him and his human family in an untenable position. He's happy where he is, loves his adoptive father who also clearly loves him. The aliens also aren't part of the Federation, and Jono's adoptive father adopted him in accordance to his cultural custom, to which Starfleet and the Federation is sworn to not interfere in the development and practice of other cultures, that includes cultures not part of the Federation.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
His cultural custom is a war crime that was perpetrated against Federation citizens. Non-interference ends at that point. By your logic, the Borg should've been allowed to assimilate Earth because that's their cultural custom and the Federation is sworn not to interfere.
Yes, it would be significant mental trauma to Jono. But here's the thing. The thug who kidnapped him IS THE PERPETRATOR. The trauma is HIS fault. Jono has a right to make his own choices, but only after he is free of indoctrination and that means being taken back to his actual home to meet his actual family.
Someone else brought this comparison up and it's very valid. What would you say about Ukrainian children kidnapped by Russians? Is there a statute of limitations on kidnapping? If they're only found in 10 years should nothing be done because they think of themselves as Russian? What if their "parents" are the actual kidnappers?
What you're arguing for is the justification and rewarding of a crime so long as it was gotten away with for long enough.
EvernightStrangely@reddit
This is going to sound harsh but true: Federation law ends at the Federation border. Period. Unless the crime was committed in Federation space (which it didn't) the Federation can't do anything. Klingons can kill each other during ritual combat in accordance to tradition, you don't see the Federation trying to prosecute that, because it isn't their place. Trying to prosecute Jono's adoptive father for behaving according to his own cultural tradition would be like the American government trying to prosecute Native Americans for their use of Peyote in accordance to tradition and religious custom. Also you forget Troi is an empath, if the other guy was lying she'd pick up on it and tell the captain. Imprisoning the only father Jono has known also wouldn't be healthy for Jono.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
A Federation colony counts as being inside the Federation border.
Troi's empathic abilities are not perfect and have been subverted many times, this would especially be the case if the captain is convinced that he's done nothing wrong and given he is a sociopath and a murderer that is likely the case.
EvernightStrangely@reddit
Maybe within the colony, but that wouldn't apply to the entire system if it was outside officially recognized Federation space. Yes Jono is a Federation citizen, but what has to be kept in mind is what's best for Jono. He was old enough to be offered a choice, he chose to go back. Forcibly ripping him away would be the worst choice. Yes Troi's abilities aren't perfect, but the show would be a lot less interesting if they were. He also isn't a sociopath, he doesn't fit the criteria. Like it or not he behaved according to the customs and traditions taught, and the Federation does not have the authority to dictate right and wrong to an outside culture.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
If it's a Federation colony it doesn't matter where it is. The Tallarians attacked it, murdered and kidnapped Federation citizens. No part of their so-called culture covers that.
Jono does have the right to a choice, yes. But an informed choice. He didn't get to make that, he was still indoctrinated by his captor. This is why it was important to take him back to his people and family where he could then choose to go back.
He wasn't a sociopath? He murdered innocent civilians and took their son because he decided he was owed a replacement. I don't care if that's his "tradition". That tradition is disgusting. It's tradition in Saudi Arabia for women to be beaten if they uncover their heads in public, should that be respected to?
Once again. The Federation has the authority to protect it's OWN PEOPLE from the barbaric practices of other cultures. What they do to their own is not their concern. What that irksome little thug did to Jono objectively is.
EvernightStrangely@reddit
Once again, the Federation and Starfleet do not have the authority or right to tell another culture they're wrong, full stop. Second, there's no way the colonists were not aware of the potential danger before settling in that area. Third, you're trying so very hard to demonize a literal alien, from an alien culture, for doing what his culture finds acceptable. Try looking at things from his perspective.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
Holy shit. How can I be clear about this.
THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO TELL ANOTHER CULTURE TO NOT MURDER AND KIDNAP THEIR CITIZENS.
I don't care what his culture finds acceptable. That ends the moment they impose their culture on someone else's.
Tell me. Something.
Let's say the thug didn't lose a son. He lost a wife. When he participated in the attack of a colony, he kidnapped a woman to replace his wife. Because that's what his culture says he can do. And then he's spent the last 10 years abusing and violating her until she's broken, because that's what his culture finds acceptable.
Are you going to defend that?
Sea-Quality4726@reddit
Or the front lines in Ukraine.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
Ha! I didn't even think of that. Maybe there are a lot of Z-warriors here.
Sea-Quality4726@reddit
When Shaw forced Seven to use her birth name, the fandom seemed incapable of considering if it was more like children being forcibly assimilated into soldiers against their own people than deadnaming.
I was most alarmed with someone saying that Magnus becoming a drone was like someone moving to Saudi Arabia and taking the name Mohammad. as if you could not sail through their waters without being seized and forcibly reeducated.
Cookie_Kiki@reddit
Ever heard of the LRA?
MindlessNectarine374@reddit
Cynthia Ann Parker.
JusteJean@reddit
TNG fans are the greatest humans. This whole conversation is the best thing on internet today.
BK_0000@reddit
Did Picard get it wrong or did Captain War Crimes get it wrong when he was in the same exact situation and sent the kid back to his real family on Cardassia?
osunightfall@reddit
They both got it right because the situations were different.
Darmok47@reddit
There's a great novel about Rugal's life after that episode called The Never Ending Sacrifice.
Dashcamkitty@reddit
What happened in it?
Darmok47@reddit
It's kind of neat seeing all of the events of the rest of DS9 from the viewpoint of Cardassia. The aftermath of the failed Obsidian Order attack on the Founders, the coup that brings the Detapa Council to power, the Klingon invasion, Gul Dukat's subsquent countercoup and joining the Dominion, the Dominion War. You get a "Cardassian on the street" angle to all of this that's really fascinating.
It felt very much like a novel I read in college about the last days of Weimar Germany and the rise of the Nazi party.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
Picard, because he essentially enabled a war crime.
BK_0000@reddit
But Sisko sent a child back to Cardassia to likely be murdered by his father’s political enemies.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
A baseless assumption.
By this logic, he is likely to be murdered on Bajor for being Cardassian.
JPMaybe@reddit
It's really fucking disturbing that the military can just make unilateral decisions like this without input from the kid's family, or Space Social Services
Paladin_127@reddit
You should read the Typhon Pact novel The Struggle Within.
Short version- Jono staying with the Talarians ends up being a good thing. Jono and his father end up becoming intermediaries between the Federation and the Talarians government during negotiations to add the Talarians to the Khitomer Accords. However, integration into the Accords would increase Talarian contact with other cultures, which is empowering the Talarian women to demand equal rights, causing domestic social upheaval. Nothing is settled by the end of the novel, but it’s implied that Jono and Endar are among those progressives in the Talarian government which are open to the idea of allowing women equal rights in the near future…
_Pliny_@reddit
I never understood why Worf wasn’t brought in on this one.
Sea-Quality4726@reddit
Worf was found by the rescue party and had no surviving family willing to take him in. Je interacted with his cousins growing up.
Jono was seized by the attackers and integrated into their culture without any attempt to reunite him with his family or even maintain his awareness of human culture. He's a spoil of war like the children kidnapped from Ukraine and Russified. Worf at best could tell Jono what the difference is.
GoatApprehensive9866@reddit
Or Picard when turned into Locutus
MindlessNectarine374@reddit
The comments make me think that Americans haven't progressed since the Indian wars.
Remarkable-Pin-8352@reddit
Me I was more concerned with what the hell the Federation was doing in this era.
These pathetic weaklings that make the Kazon look well organised and dignified have the temerity to act *at all* arrogant to a faction that can squash them even after said faction showed mercy after raiding their damn colonies, murdering their civilians and kidnapping their children.
I know the Federation is supposed to be peaceful, but there's a difference between peaceful and idiot. It's already a bit silly with the Cardassians, but at least the Cardassians were presented as a big enough power to be an unwanted nuisance. The Tallarians? Please. I would've rammed that idiot, thug captain's ship with the Enterprise on the way home and laughed at him.
PerceptionWorried284@reddit
Memory wipes are a thing. Couple hours with Dr. Bashir, this kid will happily go back to Earth. Problem solved.
LGBT-Barbie-Cookout@reddit
Its been too long since the Federation was seriously challenged, and the Federation was just... too wealthy.
When you can build a space hotel, with some of the biggest guns in the area, load it with children and then go and not only explore but deal with dangerous shit. Makes you arrogant as fuck.
They simply haven't had to use their brains in a while. The Maquis were a shock- because all humans are supposed to be the same post scarcity 'good citizens'... admiral nacheyeve believing the colonists would obey just because a Federation commander told them to!?
The essentialist movement on Risa were stupid reductive and had zero nuance, but they weren't totally wrong.
Evening-Cold-4547@reddit
Then the next Federation ship that meets them discovers they're armed with Romulan disruptors all of a sudden
froot_loop_dingus_@reddit
A 14 year old has some degree of autonomy. 14 year olds can choose which parent they want to live with in a divorce situation and in another year or two he would be able to be emancipated if he wanted. Ripping him away from the only home he’s ever known would be cruel.
Torlek1@reddit
If ever a future Trek show decides to give Phase II Kitumba a second look, I think it could be rewritten from the Klingons to another alien species.
The TNG Talarians, the DS9 Tzenkethi, and the VOY Fen Domar (Endgame) would be ideal aliens for a Kitumba rewrite.
UrguthaForka@reddit
I always thought it was a weird episode, even though I like it overall. The plot is dumb and makes little sense. How are these Tellarians a threat to the Federation? They seem weak. And yeah, just giving the kid back? They didn't even ask his Admiral Grandma who was coming to pick him up.
I just blame it on the standard "We've got 50 minutes to make a stand alone episode that no one will ever reference again, so let's make a mortal enemy no one's ever heard of before and introduce a new kid that no one will ever see or hear about ever again." Just your typical episodic TV making is all.