S3 E22 “The most toys”Questions

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SeeBriRun@reddit

Fajo says he won't kill anyone else if Data consents to remain as his prisoner, and does indeed seem somewhat horrified by the results of his disruptor on Varria (even if he gets over it quickly).

So Data's dilemma, after a full episode of various kinds of non-violent resistance, is still 'is it acceptable to kill a man in order to regain my freedom?'

He decides that it is.

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It’s my headcanon that Data does in fact feel emotions. He just feels them and expresses them differently than his friends do. His emotions chip just eventually allows him to express them the way everyone else does.

Granted, half of this is due to me potentially being autistic (my final evaluation/wrap up session is tomorrow) and seeing a lot myself in him.

And part of it is outright text within the show itself. Data’s entire series-long subplot can be boiled down to…

The dudes on the Enterprise: “Data doesn’t feel any emotions!”

Data: “You are correct. I do not feel emotions.”

something occurs that Data gets clearly emotional about

Crusher and Troi: “What the fuck are you all talking about?! Data obviously does feel some emotions.”

All the dudes on the Enterprise, including Date: “Shut up, Wesley.”

Executive Producers Rick Berman Michael Piller

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NewLife_21@reddit

There was no attempt at making Data autistic. At that point in time it wasn't a thing, not even in the DSM.

Data did not feel emotions. He was physically, mentally and programmatically incapable of feeling emotions.

Please don't try to turn a great charatingo something he's not. His purpose is allegory and to help us learn about morality in a palatable way. Just like all the other characters.

They are archetypes meant to teach.

If you feel you need a modern autistic archetype to help you navigate life then look to the "nutrek". They have all kinds of characters designed specifically with folks like you in mind.

It won't have the same moral compass because the producers burned Gene Roddenberry's bible before his body was cold, so you'll get what you get.

I hope it works for you. It doesn't for me.🤢

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OCD_Geek@reddit

What about that time Data mourned the death of his daughter? Or that time Data almost murdered Saul Rubinek in a fit of rage? Those are emotions.

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NewLife_21@reddit

No, Data didn't feel anything. He was programmed to emulate the emotions he sees around him and basically performs emotions without feeling them.

That you are convinced he was actually feeling anything is a testament to Brent Spiners acting skills.

But no, an android cannot feel anything. Not until the proper programming was installed in the movie, years later.

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OCD_Geek@reddit

Data was programmed to emulate murderous rage? By the guy whose entire purpose in building Data was to prevent another Lore?

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Tasty-Fox9030@reddit

So here's the rub. I agree that he was not intended to be written as an autistic person. He is a pretty good depiction of some autistic people. Intent is a thing, but so is the interpretation of the audience.

I'll add that while Data may not describe his experiences as emotions, I would sort of describe feeling motivated AS an emotion. He definitely "wants" things. What is that if not an emotion? If he has no motivation at all, what is he beyond his programming?

Frankly the emotion chip is TINY compared to his positronic brain. I think it's a jumper or a dongle. It's not doing squat for processing- it probably turns off a lockout so he doesn't go Lore on us more than it gives Data new abilities.

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NewLife_21@reddit

You can believe anything you want, but that doesn't make it true.

You're ascribing a meaning that doesn't exist to a show, and it appears you're doing so to better help you feel good about yourself.

Been there done that myself. But I've never pretended what I chose to see was true or the intent of the producers. I at least admitted that I was doing it to feel better about myself.

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TripleStrikeDrive@reddit

That my headcannon, too. Data alaways had emotions, but they are low-key value in Data's subconscious in his response to his environment. And he just doesn't find riker's jokes funny, so it wouldn't make him feel anymore.

Data being in starfleet shows he has feelings of loyalty and appreciation towards starfleet because he rescues him after the crystal entry attacked the colony.

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Tasty-Fox9030@reddit

Data leaving his quarters in the morning, choosing to understand humans, having a cat, etc etc implies some degree of internal motivation, desire and yes emotion. Why else would he do anything?

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SgtMajorPanda@reddit

Data 100% pulled that trigger. Chief O’Brien even mentions the weapon discharge during transport. Had the Chief been a few seconds late, Fajo would not have survived that day.

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handlerofdrones@reddit (OP)

First of all O’Brien is massively underrated on his abilities. He never fails.
Second, though he lied, he’s still capable of lying. He plays poker and in a way that’s a bit of a “lie”

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Unit_79@reddit

Underrated? He’s the most important man in Starfleet history.

He’s not just a man. He’s a union man.

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borisdidnothingwrong@reddit

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amglasgow@reddit

He also has no significant emotional affect to hide -- He could say, if he chose to, a complete and utter falsehood without any tells people could watch for.

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dashsolo@reddit

There’s even an entire episode where Data has to lie to everyone to protect them.

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SgtMajorPanda@reddit

I feel it important to note he did not come to that decision alone, it was a direct order from Capt. Picard not to reveal what events had occurred in order to protect them.

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dashsolo@reddit

Agreed. But, I think in either case Data’s morality subroutine would govern to what degree he followed that order. For example if Picard ordered him to execute Riker for no reason, he wouldn’t do it.

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Pretend-Nobody230@reddit

The most star trek episode that i wanted a continuity for… i don’t know if there is a disagreement on the episode ending, but Data was indeed about to shoot Fajo, and YES, he did lie. The reason i wanted a continuity so badly is this is a major change in the fundamentally of Data, it would have been very interesting to see what it means and if it had an unintentional consequences or you know, ANYTHING.

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robotatomica@reddit

Data for sure lied about pulling the trigger.

This is one of my favorite episodes in all of Trek, and I have thought about this one a lot. The way I see it, it’s yet another planted hint by the writers that Data actually does have emotions.

The same as humans? No. And I think the jury’s out whether he had some form of proto-emotions from the beginning, that simply developed over time, (after all, from the beginning he clearly experiences joy and delight), or if it was unforeseen by Noonien Soong, and that Data’s algorithm, in growing and expanding, simply developed them over time (much in the way we see with the Doctor exceeding his programming in Voyager).

But between Spiner’s acting choices and the deliberate indicators planted by the writers for the audience to perceive, I don’t see much room for any read that Data truly did not have emotions.

My belief is that because Data understands he was not given the emotion chip nor programmed to have emotions, that as he experiences these things, he can only contextualize them as something that must be different from what humans experience as emotion. He does not know he has any at all.

But this episode, and his compassion with the little girl whose planet is dying, his love for Lal, and perhaps most overtly in “Data’s Day” where Data in letters telling about his day will repeatedly reference emotions he does not have and emotional reactions he did not have to a situation, only for the scene to show him having exactly that emotion! We see quite explicitly he is an unreliable narrator in this regard, bc he simply just does not understand himself to be having emotional responses in these moments!

This happens countless times across the series. We see Data experiencing an emotion to varying degrees, completely unaware that he is doing so.

So with that in mind, he didn’t need a logical algorithmic excuse for why to fire the disrupter. You can, after all, see the emotion on his face as he does. To your point, the “I cannot permit this to continue..” he says to himself, there is certainly a calculus there, but it is clearly so much deeper to him. Being so close to a man like Fajo for so long, seeing his thoughtless cruelty, it has astonished Data and caused him pain. He feels the right thing is to kill him, and he partly comes to that conclusion due to a swell of emotions that are completely new to him,

which of course he does not understand as emotion, so he finds a way to contextualize it as a thing that logically must be done.

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Business-Decision719@reddit

I tend think that the Soong type androids just can't function as intended without some sort of emotion-like patterns of thought and behavior. Exactly how much was hard coded in versus how much emerges organically from their life experience (c.f. Voyager's EMH) is hard to be sure about. Either way, they're whole purpose is to be immortal AGIs with human-like (but superhuman) forms and an ability to navigate human society. Well, that's the charitable way of putting it, really Noonien seems pretty vain and created them as sort of heir or living testament to his own perceived greatness.

The Lore debacle was a huge setback, to put it mildly. It proved that programming a hyper intelligent, physically superior android with too accurate a simulation of human emotions (specifically Noonien's self-importance) was a dangerous mistake. So with Data they left that out. But even Data was going to have to have a complex psychology, highly adaptive software, and an ability to partake in and be affected by interactions with humans and other intelligent life forms. It was inevitable that Data was going to end up with a personality.

Data's mom may have figured it out before his dad did. She's the one who wanted to imbue him with artistic talent, despite being told Data would have no need for self expression. But even when his dad couldn't give him the emotion chip (to turn him fully into "Noonien 3.0" I guess), he still partially disputed Data's claim of being unable to grieve a death.

I think Data noticed he was different from biological humanoids, and is probably used to them noticing it, too. Who knows how many Maddoxes or Pulaskis Data encountered before he ended up on the Enterprise where bridge crew are mostly true believers in the equality-of-all-intelligent-beings business. I agree with you he thinks he doesn't have emotions, and I think he was confused about what happened to him down there with Varia and Fajo. Personally I think he lied because he wasn't ready to talk about it in the moment, and wouldn't have been sure what to say if he tried. And I think Riker and O'Brien both understood that Data had been through something that even with his supercomputer brain, he would time to process.

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Ran_Cossack@reddit

Data didn't quite lie ("something" happened during transport, all right; he pulled the trigger), though he could have.

I think Riker knew (or strongly suspected), too, but wasn't going to press.

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Tasty-Fox9030@reddit

Riker absolutely knew. I am assuming his internal monologue said something along the lines of Clint Eastwood at the climax of Unforgiven. (I'll see you in hell William Munney- "Yeah.")

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rad2themax@reddit

And I think it wasn't Data specific, Riker would have let it slide if it had been Geordi or Worf or Deanna, etc

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LainieCat@reddit

He killed him to prevent him from hurting anyone else. "I cannot allow this to continue"

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Miami_Mice2087@reddit

Cos Fajo had already murdered a woman right in front of Data. Also imprisoning Data was a crime against humanity according to the Federation. This guy was scum.

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stpony@reddit

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Miami_Mice2087@reddit

🤣🤣🤣

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Miami_Mice2087@reddit

"Vulcans don't lie," Spock lied.

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BK_0000@reddit

The First Law or Robotics is tricky to work around. He's lucky his positronic brain didn't lock up after he decided to kill Fajo.

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darthmia308@reddit

Wait, are we in the Asimov universe? I don’t know if they ever said his laws of robotics strictly applied to Data.

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Gummiesruinedme@reddit

Data lied. He likely rationalized the reason to fire based the situation. Having rewatched TNG for years, it’s clear that Data has fleeting moments of emotion that he doesn’t know how to recognize or acknowledge. I believe that Data has the ability to generate emotions through over-rationalization. Basically, he is able to recognize that “if he were human, he would be feeling this emotion or that emotion.” However, because of his awareness of that fact, he dismisses those moments as “if I were human” moments. However, on occasion he doesn‘t. He experiences an onslaught of stimui, he us unable to rationalize it before the “emotion” occurs, and actively experiences the emotion, but does not realize it. Some episodes where this happens are Legacy, Thine Own Self, and Data’s Day.

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JoeCensored@reddit

Data lied. I think he had trouble himself accepting he was willing to pull the trigger. So I think he was lying to himself more than anyone.

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KJPicard24@reddit

Data is unaware he is about to be rescued, he's a captive and has exhausted other means. His options are limited to witnessing Fajo kill again and probably Data himself eventually, or killing Fajo.

This obviously challenges Data's ethics, killing is wrong but what if it's to prevent more deaths, including his own most likely? If this is his one and only opportunity to take action, which he will assume it could well be, is he justified?

It doesn't answer it, it's for the audience to think about. He almost certainly does pull the trigger, but again, the audience is being shown something about Data, that he is acting more human. He covers up a moment of desperation, because under Federation law he could be in trouble, even if he could argue a defence. I think the moment between him, Riker and O'Brien was him being more human than ever, but not just that, being a member of the crew more than ever.

Sometimes they are in terrifying and deadly situations, they have all been there, where what happens out there on a mission doesn't always need to be fully told in the log, just to be heard by some Admiral light years away who wasn't there and won't understand. Riker is that exact type of officer who will trust that if Data, or any of his senior officers, did do something off the book, they will have had a damn good reason, and doesn't pick at it.

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TripleStrikeDrive@reddit

Which is a weird stance for data to have honestly. He is a member of starfleet sworn to holdup the laws of the federation by use of lethal force if necessary. Crimes of kidnapping a starfleet officer should allow a lethal response to escape Data captured.

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OCD_Geek@reddit

My headcanon is that Data does in fact feel emotions. He just feels them differently than everyone else does. All his emotions chip does is allow him to eventually express his emotions the same way his friends do.

Granted half of this is due to me being potentially autistic (my final evaluation/wrap up session is tomorrow) and me seeing a lot of myself in Data.

But half of this is just straight up text within the show. Data’s entire subplot can be boiled down to…

The dudes on the Enterprise: “Data doesn’t feel emotions!”

Data: “You are correct. I do not feel emotions.”

a thing happens where Data very obviously feels emotions

Crusher and Troi: “What the fuck are you all talking about?! Data very clearly feels emotions.”

All the dudes on the Enterprise, including Data: “Shut up, Wesley.”

Executive Producers Rick Berman Michael Piller

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mwonch@reddit

Technically he did not lie. He did no harm. He may have decided to do so, but the transporter saved him from that particular conflict to his programming. He could report nothing happened as long as there were no further detailed questions. Since the crew trusted his word by then and there were no complaints filed, no further inquiry was conducted. In reality, he did not lie. he was still confused since his intended action was directly against his programming. He wasn't about to kill the guy to protect the girl. He was about to kill the guy as a form of punishment/revenge. Yes, the dude deserved to die, but Data's programming was not such that would easily allow him to take such an action without serious reprogramming.

That episode was also the point where Data ceased being an Asimov-style robot. It freed the writers to explore his "growth" due to experiences. Up until that episode, Data really was a very limited character that may not have been with the show much longer. Thew writers did it in a way that allowed Data to silently realize he was much more than a simple construction with strict programming. Which in turn freed Brent Spiner to really show his range over the next seasons and the films.

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dashsolo@reddit

He absolutely was not intending to kill Fajo as a punishment/revenge.

“I cannot permit this to continue”.

Data felt there was a moral imperative to protect people from Fajo, as he had made it clear his behavior would not change.

Given that he had to assume he would never escape and therefore could not bring Fajo to justice, his only recourse was to murder him. Inaction would result in the death and exploitation of many innocents in the future.

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Fuzzy_Builder_2153@reddit

Data should've been brought on murder and attempted Murder charges and then Boxed

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BigMrTea@reddit

Data is more than a machine built in the likeness of man. Though he isn't capable of killing in a fit of passion, he is capable of summarily executing someone who backs him into a corner. His lying about it is further evidence that he is more than just a machine. It was necessary narratively to establish beyond doubt that Fajo was wrong and that Data WAS more. If he were honest about it, it could be argued that it was only logical Data tried to kill him. The lying is left ambiguous because there are many emotional and human reasons to do so beyond the logical practical ones.

Personally I think Data chose to lie because be betrayed his own values. Though he doesn't rule out ever using deadly force, he is programmed with a respect for all life. And Fajo forced him into a position that value forced him to take a life. That he was stopped mid attempt is immaterial. He was in his own way embarrassed and ashamed. Besides, how could he explain it someone who isn't an android and wasn't there? He can't. So he lied.

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Abe_Bettik@reddit

would this not give data cause for ending Fajo?

Yes. That's why Data killed Fajo.

Also, did data “lie” about pulling the trigger?

Yes. Why? We can only speculate. He probably didn't want to deal with the paperwork of justifying pulling a trigger but not actually killing the target.

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Malnurtured_Snay@reddit

Data didn't kill Fatjo. Data may have tried to kill Fatjo, but that's a different story.

If Data tried to kill Fatjo, the reason he would have lied about it is not that he's worried about the paperwork -- it's that Fatjo was unarmed, not presently a threat to anyone, and the appropriate course of action would have been to place him under arrest (not vaporize him). He may have found himself under judicial scrutiny.

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