Japan team has 1st successful engine test for Mach 5 aircraft, eyeing 2-hr trips to US - The Mainichi
Posted by MowvayFronsay@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 61 comments
fenuxjde@reddit
Another day another supersonic pax aircraft.
Just like Boom, I'll believe it when I see it.
jimbobzz9@reddit
Wow dude, being skeptical of SST on Reddit. So brave.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
We can stop saying “not gonna happen” when companies and credulous news articles stop pushing for these vaporware projects.
Carlito_2112@reddit
Or or........hear me out......when a company actually manages to make good on their claim.
Will that happen? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I would love to see Boom, or a company like it to be successful. However, only time will tell whether or not a modern SST will come to fruition (at least any time soon).
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
I’ll be the first to acknowledge if some company like Dassault or Gulfstream comes along with appropriate funding and a realistic pathway towards a SST, likely in the form of a business jet and not an airliner due to the regulatory burden, but in the meantime I’ll continue to voice my skepticism about SST airliners making it to production, especially from startup businesses.
jimbobzz9@reddit
Listen, I get it. I think it is more like than not Boom will fail in getting a commercially viable aircraft to market. I also understand that the engineering gap between a supersonic demonstrator and a certificated supersonic airliner is as about as big as the engineering gap between a Red Bull soapbox and a Red Bull F1 car... But Boom did just fly the first privately funded supersonic aircraft. That's something. Going forward, they have a very ambitious roadmap, and will likely stumble along the way.
What I don't understand is the negativity that this company brings out. Like why does everyone feel the need to well actually how hard it is to certify a new aircraft?
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
That’s kind of understating it, though, and that’s the problem. You make it sound like 60:40 or 70:30 odds against Boom succeeding, but in actuality they don’t have a snowball’s chance in Hell. Investors unfamiliar with aviation (such as finance podcaster Dr. Scott Galloway) may take a bet on the former kind of odds, but would likely hold back if they understood the whole picture.
The company’s raised about $700 million thus far. It took over $20 billion, adjusted for inflation, for the Concorde to be developed in the 1960s. And to get an idea of just how much easier and faster and cheaper it was to develop aircraft in the 1960s as compared to today, just look at how fast and cheaply Boeing developed the 747, and now contrast with how mightily they’re struggling to update the 777.
And despite those development costs largely being absorbed by various governments, the Concorde was still a gigantic boondoggle.
The question of whether aircraft can fly supersonic was never the problem. The “boomless cruise” was always a shell game, a distraction from the actual issues at hand with supersonic flight—namely, the highly unfavorable intersection of cost, efficiency, and speed. Unless they manage to do something about one or all of those three things, it’s a concept that’s still dead in the water.
In that context, the boomless cruise is actually a step backward in viability, because it requires a reduction in cruising speed to Mach 1.1-1.2, whereas Concorde already failed because its travel time advantage at Mach 2 simply wasn’t worth the costs involved.
Simply because it’s not ethical for people like Boom to grift people (and the taxpayers of North Caroline) out of hundreds of millions of dollars on false promises. If they were actually realistic about how hard it would be and the actual costs involved, that would be another thing, but they spout out obvious nonsense about it costing the same as business class and using sustainable aviation fuels. There is no justifying that.
jimbobzz9@reddit
That... is an incredible straw man argument implying that I think there is a 40 to 30% chance of Boom succeeding.
So what is it you're actually arguing here? That a company pursuing supersonic transport is inherently unethical? Boom is not publicly traded. Its investors are venture capital and private equity (with minor commitments from airlines). Do you really think these people don't understand that this is an extraordinarily high risk investment? At a baseline, Series A and B funding in any new commercial technology is high risk. Your argument seems so self-important in implying that these investors don't grasp that. Anyone with an internet connection and five minutes on Google could tell you how fraught it will be to bring supersonic passenger service back at any viable price point. These are some of the most sophisticated investors in the world, and unless you've seen their disclosures, it seems kind of wild to critique the company for being optimistic in their marketing material.
What exactly do you expect? A page on their website explaining why Concorde was retired and why the 2707 never flew? Have you considered that, like Concorde, some airlines may be willing to operate a supersonic offering at a loss purely for the "halo" effect? British Airways and Air France flew Concorde for decades never turning a profit, yet the brand prestige and attention it generated made it worth keeping in the fleet.
Let's use your numbers and say a new SST will cost ten times what Concorde cost in current dollars, or $200B. Are you saying there is no ethical way for anyone to ever pursue another SST unless they have $200B lying around? That there's no way to start small, demonstrate success on a limited scale, and build from there? That unless Boeing or Airbus shock the world by pouring their entire market cap into a boondoggle, it's unethical for anyone else to even try?
For what it's worth: I fully understand that Boom will almost certainly fail at bringing an airliner to the market. Their best case scenario is likely to push some SST technology along and then sell the company for that IP. From an investor's point of view, that might still be a success. That being said, I would not invest in them, I would not recommend that anyone I know invest in them & if my state cut them a tax break, I would be frustrated. But I believe there is still room for big dreams in aviation, and I wish them the best. Prove everybody wrong.
Bring on the downvotes, I'm happy to die on this hill.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
I’m not saying that’s your odds on their success, I’m saying that putting it as mildly as “more like than not” to fail could lead the uninformed into thinking the situation is far less severe than it actually is—since technically that statement could encompass odds ranging from 51/49 all the way down to 99.9999/0.0001, and Boom’s actual chances of success are far closer to the latter than the former.
Again, I remind you that I explicitly stated that it would be another thing if Boom was being honest about the costs and difficulty involved, but they’re very much not. It’s the dishonesty that’s the problem, not them being a SST project.
That doesn’t make stealing from them on false pretenses okay. Much less the aforementioned taxpayers of North Carolina.
Yes, yes I do. The aforementioned Scott Galloway clearly had no idea the kinds of risks involved when he invested into them, because he doesn’t know very much about aviation. Assuming people have an accurate model of the risks involved when Boom is actively lying to them is just victim-blaming.
Qualitatively, they may grasp that it’s risky, but quantitatively I think the investors are so caught up in hype they’re clueless. Obviously they should have done better due diligence, but I’m not going to hold Boom blameless for blatantly misleading them.
There’s optimism, and then there’s bullshit. Boom shovels plenty of the latter. For example, I have yet to see anything even remotely justifying how they expect to offer ticket costs competitive with modern business class while burning 2-3 times as much fuel per passenger (their estimate) and using sustainable aviation fuels that are ~4x as expensive as normal jet fuel.
For them to offer actually realistic numbers and timelines?
Regardless of whether the airlines would be willing to eat such losses, that would be cold comfort to the investors in the manufacturer, who actually has to make money building the planes in the first place, and not just operating a few of them. The A380, for example, is able to be profitably operated by a small handful of airlines in the world, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a massive money pit for Airbus, hence why they cut their losses early.
No, but in such a scenario I do expect the company to go to potential investors and say “we need $200B to do this, $700M is not sufficient.”
They could have done so by designing a sub-19-passenger supersonic business jet, and thus avoided a truly titanic amount of regulations and certification requirements, but that isn’t the strategy they chose to pursue. They are the ones who decided to go straight to a commercial airliner, don’t get angry at me for pointing out that they’ve bitten off way more than they can chew.
Again, it’s unethical to lie, not unethical to try.
I can respect that—hell, I myself am one of the biggest advocates for a return to airships there is—but it’s important to recognize who is and isn’t worthy of trust and respect when it comes to the important project of realizing those big dreams. Cargolifter, for example, is an airship project that has many similarities to Boom—a mismanaged project that never got anywhere close to raising enough money to succeed, even if what they intended to build was in theory technically feasible.
Every charlatan and failed vaporware project only makes it far more difficult for those that are really serious and capable of doing something genuinely innovative from actually accomplishing it. Investors often operate on the availability heuristic—“once bitten, twice shy.” They associate failures with the technology itself, not necessarily the scummy businesses bilking past credulous investors.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Boom "definitely not a scam" aviation. They don't even have an engine design but God damnit they'll be flying prototypes next year!
HawaiiClipper@reddit
they have an engine design, production facility, and are preparing for full scale engine tests.
fenuxjde@reddit
Next week! It's coming! It's almost here! They just need another hundred million!
cat_prophecy@reddit
You're off by a few bucks.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
Step 1 - announce you'll do it Step 2 - Design and build the engine and plane
prex10@reddit
Even SK essentially called it vapor ware recently
snowcat0@reddit
Even if they manage to get a supersonic aircraft into service, I don’t think I would ever be able to afford to fly on it, I’m sure that will be first class pricing for every seat on the plane.
spros@reddit
At 5x the fuel consumption with current prices? You'll be hoping for first class pricing because that'd be a bargain.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Don’t forget their greenwashing promises to use SAFs, which cost about 4 times as much as normal jet fuel.
Twitter_2006@reddit
Same.
RedMacryon@reddit
So most likely never or in 4 decades
Oxcell404@reddit
Have we learned nothing from Concord?
BurtHurtmanHurtz@reddit
What did we learn again?
Oxcell404@reddit
Nothing apparently lol.
Why did Concord fail? People were not filling those seats.
BurtHurtmanHurtz@reddit
People 30 years ago were not. I bet the would now
Oxcell404@reddit
I'd love to see this thing fly, do not get me wrong. All I'm saying is I don't think the economics have changed significantly since 2003.
MowvayFronsay@reddit (OP)
That we need a new one?
Oxcell404@reddit
Awesome jet, I mean no shade, but the thing was not profitable. People have shown they aren’t willing to shell out tons of money for half the time to get to Europe. Even rich businessmen.
RedMacryon@reddit
Tldr:
They tested a ramjet engine in simulated conditions
That's it, literally that is all
fenuxjde@reddit
A one fiftieth scale..
watabby@reddit
still $2000 for an economy seat
MowvayFronsay@reddit (OP)
I’m no rocket scientist, but that would be an absolute bargain for a seat on a flight like this.
the__storm@reddit
It's $2,000 for a one-fiftieth scale seat. Full size seats are substantially more.
mjgross@reddit
They’re just getting ahead. By the time it enters commercial service, that will be the standard economy airline seat.
TESLAMIZE@reddit
Id gladly pay that.
En4cr@reddit
Yep…an absolute steal for a flight like that.
U2ElectricBoogaloo@reddit
For supersonic trans-pacific flight? Absolutely!
Threedawg@reddit
*hypersonic
If its 5+
roadbikemadman@reddit
I would pay that to literally stand in the aisle and hold a stanchion.
DVOlimey@reddit
Thats fairly cheap in today's air fare market.
TalbotFarwell@reddit
What is this, a hypersonic airliner for ANTS?!
MoeSzyslakMonobrow@reddit
Gotta start somewhere.
agha0013@reddit
once you get past the first paragraph, the rest is just a history of supersonic travel... lot of fluff to say almost nothing at all
lot of teams have demonstrated scaled model ramjets, we know the tech can work, it's just the huge pile of other issues that come with supersonic travel that keeps getting int he way.
Walbabyesser@reddit
Also - glad that kerosene isn‘t scarce or something right now 🙄
RedMacryon@reddit
Or expensive....
MikeGinnyMD@reddit
I’ll believe it on its first revenue flight.
And if you need to get there THAT fast, how about a videoconference, instead?
Bungabunga10@reddit
Then how do they get out of office, enjoy business class, stay in hotels, wine and dine, visit new countries, all on company’s dime. Extend stay for a few days as holiday. Contractor treating you to nice meals and tour sights.
atomatoflame@reddit
You have to admit that sitting in a cramped seat for over 10 hrs is much less desirable to sitting in the same cramped seat for a short few hours?
cat_prophecy@reddit
But the question is "why even bother?". If your primary concern is time saving, then you are probably in business. In which case you can either 1) teleconference, 2) buy a much more comfortable business class seat.
The only people this would benefit are economy fliers. Flying business or first class means you don't care about time on the airplane. So wealthy people and business people won't care and economy fliers won't be able to afford this.
-burnr-@reddit
Tell me you don't/have never flown corporate without telling me you don't/have never flown corporate
Messyfingers@reddit
At this point I'm pretty sure some of these companies are just R&D firms hoping to have IP that major companies may buy in the future, masquerading as possibly economically viable companies. Interesting tech, strong marketing, but a fair bit of glossing over the economics.
Bertz-2-@reddit
Like the now defunct reaction engines?
U2ElectricBoogaloo@reddit
That’s a common strategy in many industries where significant (and I mean SIGNIFICANT) R&D is required to get anything done.
You see it in pharmaceuticals and in Silicon Valley often.
Mustangfast85@reddit
That’s pretty much it. Even re engining a current jet takes billions they don’t have. They hope GE/Safran/RR buys the IP for their own project
Sixguns1977@reddit
That sounds like a really cool place to work, though.
Where i work, we're about to start building our first submarine ever(we have a long history of designing and building ROVs).
MASSochists@reddit
A commercial plane like that would make a lot of Japanese MLB players happy.
milsurp-guy@reddit
This was also posted in r/worldnews and kind of surprised that even here no one seems to understand the defense application for this. I’d be far more interested in seeing how this R&D is employed by the JSDF.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
That's really a long way to go.
Lispro4units@reddit
I did too, in MSFS
LarryD217@reddit
Fancy-Restaurant-746@reddit
Successfully tested my ~30 min solution for moon travel, well we tested a mock up of the coffee machine, but it’s coming together!
post-explainer@reddit
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