What's the best update to Bad Elf + iPad??
Posted by LearyBlaine@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 42 comments
When I was last a regular cruising sailor on my own boat, in addition to the installed navigation system, I used a hand-held BadElf (https://bad-elf.com/products/be-gps-2200) that fed my satellite-based position via Bluetooth to my iPad, which was running Navionics. And I LOVED having this set-up in parallel to the one permanently installed on my boat. Heck, I could take it in the dinghy with me if I wanted!
What are you cruising folks using today? I see that this whole category of GPS devices (like that old BadElf) no longer exists. I don't want to actually navigate using the handheld satellite device; I just want it to feed my position to a nice, large-screened iPad via Bluetooth. But I'm not finding anything that seems to do this.
Scooter87942@reddit
Unless your BadElf is completely destroyed, you can get it refurbished!:
https://bad-elf.com/products/be-rpr-2200bld?pr_prod_strat=e5_desc&pr_rec_id=94994962d&pr_rec_pid=11409431876&pr_ref_pid=434159992&pr_seq=uniform
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Well, I'd have to *find* the bloody thing first.🤪
Scooter87942@reddit
Found mine in the bottom of my gear bag! It still works, but the screen got damaged. I’d also won’t hold a charge for long. So, it’s going in for refurb, soon! I hope to get many more years of use out of it! I really like using it for the track feature. It’s also nice to use on the cruise ship. I put it out on the balcony, and I can get signal onto my iPad and phone.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Yep. Loved that thing.
IndyBananaJones2@reddit
I use a Samsung Galaxy Tab active with navionics. It's waterproof, sits in a RAM mount under the dodger which provides a constant charge.Â
I prefer navionics because they update the charts frequently and you can use it on multiple devices simultaneously. Good to have redundancy.Â
I also have OpenCPN which I can run on a laptop, but it's much more clunky and I generally just review spotty chart areas with that and compare to navionics.Â
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Sounds interesting! I presume that “Tab” is a tablet (iPad-like device)? So what device, exactly, is querying the satellites and getting your GPS signal? Is it the Tab itself, or something else?
IndyBananaJones2@reddit
Yeah exactly. You have to buy the one that is GPS enabled to avoid having to use a separate GPS dongle.Â
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
OK, so that's good to know. Thanks!
I've been all-Apple-all-the-time for 20 years, so Plan A for me will be to try to make that work with an iPad. Plan B could be the Samsung.
IndyBananaJones2@reddit
Yeah you can make it work work an iPad. I would choose something waterproof and get a waterproof / outdoor charging mount. You usually need to buy the one that is cellular network connectable to get GPS, so just confirm that.Â
RedPh0enix@reddit
Got a nmea2k backbone? Grab a NMEA wifi gateway (I use a sh-wg), and tie it into your vessel wifi.
Tell Navionics on the tablet to listen to the NMEA data, which probably includes GPS position, speed, wind directions and a bunch of other stuff. Navionics will use that data for your position info.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Yes, that's all true. No problem. But I want an entirely "redundant", second, satellite-based GPS input to my iPad. I want a standalone system that I can take with me onto different boats.
RedPh0enix@reddit
Ahh, gotcha!
Got an iPhone? Have a look at GPS2IP, which does something similar to the sh-wg I mentioned above, for GPS data. As long as the iPhone and iPad are on the same network (eg: boat network, or iPhone hotspot), and Navionics is configured to listen to the appropriate data, you're gold.
despreshion@reddit
But that's not redundant. if the network goes down (say, there's an electrical issue that also brings down the backbone) then you've got nothing. And also OP has been clear that bringing it into another boat is another reason for redundancy.Â
A small reliable usb gps device would work. Following this thread in the hopes that someone knows because I'm interested also
RedPh0enix@reddit
The original option (sh-wg, hardwired into the boat network), yep - you're absolutely correct.
However, a tablet hotspotted (or via Bluetooth) to an iPhone GPS source, seems to cover off both portability and redundancy?
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Better (I’m thinking) just to get the iPad with cellular, which appears to have a separate chip for satellite GPS. (I know my iPhone 16 does NOT have satellite GPS. Bloody thing doesn’t give me any GPS functionality when there’s no/poor cell service available.)
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
This is the closest thing I've found so far: https://amzn.eu/d/08GU4cdB. It's from Amazon.de (Germany), which is fine because I'm in Europe and will be saiing primarily the Adriatic and Med.
Free-Literature-8500@reddit
Garmin makes one and it works with Navionics and other apps. https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/645104/
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Yep. Thanks! That seems to be the best “direct replacement” for my old Bad Elf. Wow, that’s a good price, too!
StatisticalMan@reddit
The ipad w/ LTE have built in wifi. It means replacing your ipad but in boatbucks that isn't the end of the world.
Bad Elf still makes products but they have moved more into professional gear. The cheapest option would be Bad Elf Flex Mini at $500.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Does the iPad w/LTE pull a GPS signal directly from satellites?
StatisticalMan@reddit
Yes. It has its own gps receiver just like any modern phone. They removed that as a cost cutting measure on the wifi only models annoyingly for us sailors.
You don't even need to enable or pay more cellular service to get gps just have the cellular model hardware because only those have the required chips.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Well, that would be the thing, then! I was led to believe that iPads with "cellular" took their signals from towers, not satellites, which would mean that I couldn't use it offshore. It's time for a new iPad anyway, so I'll check this out for sure. Thanks!
StatisticalMan@reddit
Well if it makes you feel any better I have been using ipad offshore for five years now and never even have the cellular on nor do I have a service plan.
It is a logical but incorrect assumption that the towers must be involved because of Apple's decision to not include GPS in the wifi only models.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
I just “really want” it to work, and I will “feel better” if the stuff I buy does the stuff I want. I don’t care about what hardware gets me there. It’s just about function & value. That’s all there is to it.
Yes, from all I’ve learned from the generous commenters in this thread, that Garmin is the best direct replacement for my old Bad Elf. However, if I can just get an iPad that does it all, then THAT’s a compelling alternative. Boils down to price, then, I guess. Interestingly, the Garmin is ~$150, and adding the cellular to an iPad Pro costs an additional $200. Pretty close! But that’s just the hardware. Gotta take into account, too, the cost of a “plan”, where necessary. (Actually, though, based on what you’ve said, I don’t have to buy a plan for the iPad if I don’t need/want the “cellular” service. I just want that GPS chip. And it doesn’t appear that the Garmin needs a plan. My old Bad Elf didn’t.)
Thank you very much for your thoughtful input!
ceciltech@reddit
The cellular is from towers. Â GPS is a separate chip. Â They only put the GPS chip in the cellular iPads. Â I think the newest iphones come with satellite calling but do not know details or if the iPad has it as well.Â
SVAuspicious@reddit
OP u/LearyBlaine et al,
Among other sins, I'm a delivery skipper with a lot of miles behind me. Reading the post and comments as of my own comment, I fully support the idea of independence and redundancy. When I walk onto a boat I don't know how trustworthy the nav gear is so my "go kit" is fully independent. I have backups to that. Everything I have works off the grid (I'm an offshore guy) and is not dependent on any networking I don't bring with me.
I have seen some really great stuff on boats. I've seen some really bad stuff. Really, really bad. For the record, I don't leave the dock without working autopilot.
The discontinued Bad Elf Pro is sorely missed. The $250 price point was great. $500 for the current Bad Elf Mini is a lot.
What I have and carry described here with commentary.
My main gear is OpenCPN on a Windows laptop with a GlobalSat BU-353N GPS and a dAISy-2+ AIS receiver. I also use DigiWave Visual Passage Planner for pilot chart routing. I also use Nullschool for ocean currents. That requires Internet access but I can save the graphics for use offshore if I don't have Starlink. Ocean currents don't change in the timeline of ocean passages. I generate a .gpx file of planned route that I transfer to the rest of my gear, to crew electronics, and to whatever is on the boat. I carry SD cards to transfer to boat systems and generally use email ahead of time to transfer to crew. If a major change happens I can set up a WiFi network from my gear on board to transfer files around without Internet access. That doesn't happen often - twice in 25 years that I can think of (recognizing all this stuff has evolved with time). Charts for OpenCPN are readily available, some free, some paid. Picture set up on a customer boat below. Laptop and an ASUS M168b (I think) portable USB monitor. You can't see the GPS puck or AIS. There is a big 10 port USB hub behind the screens. I don't have all the non-skid and blue tape down yet in the picture. That boat had HF/SSB so I brought a Pactor modem. You can see Winlink Express running on the laptop for Winlink and Sailmail and OpenCPN on the ASUS.
I carry the gear to run off 12VDC, 117VAC/60 Hz, and 220VAC/50 Hz. This includes USB charging for the rest of my gear.
I have Aqua Map on my iPhone. I have a Master subscription which IIRC is $25/year and gives me offline charts. Some charts are free, some you have to buy.
I do have a WiFi-only iPad I sometimes bring. No GPS in WiFi-only iPad. If you're starting from scratch, a cellular capable iPad is $200 extra. The GPS circuitry is in the same chip as the cellular radio. There is a known issue with GPS location update rate at low (sailboat) speeds (see Bob "Bob423" Sherer on Facebook). Aqua Map has made strides and forcing the GPS to update better. I use GPS2IP on my iPhone ($8) to pass GPS to my iPad. You have to turn on hotspot on the phone but do NOT need a cell signal for this to work. Power consumption goes up (in portable electronic terms, not in boat terms). You have to pay attention to heat, especially from sun. I run both Aqua Map and Argo on the iPad. Note that not all nav apps handle outside GPS location gracefully.
Android tablets, to my knowledge, all have GPS whether they are cellular capable or not. I do have an Android tablet and I've tested that but have not sailed with it. Credible reports from others are positive.
OpenCPN runs on Windows, MacOS, and Android. Not iOS. Aqua Map runs on both iOS and Android. Navionics in my opinion is NOT SAFE FOR NAVIGATION. Crew for me bring all sorts of software so I run them side-by-side on a regular basis. You can search r/sailing for my detailed diatribes on the failings of Navionics. Don't go there.
I don't like subscriptions much. I have the Aqua Map Master subscription which has proven value to me. I update charts (like Explorer Charts in the Bahamas and NV Charts in much of the Caribbean) and pay for that when I decide to update. Everything else I buy and own.
WX is pretty navigation adjacent. I carry an HF/SSB/shortwave receiver and use JCOMM32 on my laptop for weather fax. Again, no Internet. Much, much better than gribs. No subscriptions. You have to know what you're looking at. I've ranted on this subject before on r/sailing also so I'll spare you.
Everything I carry fits in a regular laptop bag and a small Lands End boat bag. Everything - auxiliaries, power banks, USB hub, power converters,...everything.
If you're not crossing oceans and don't need to worry about airplanes this can all be simpler.
For dinghy runs it's hard to beat Aqua Map on your phone and a handheld VHF.
sail fast and eat well, dave
P.S. Never run out of Kleenex.
diekthx-@reddit
B&G app connected to my mfd over its integrated WiFi.Â
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
If I understand correctly what you're saying, that's just a way to broadcast the installed sat nav signal to the iPad. Right? I want an independent/parallel/redundant satellite input to the iPad -- a complete, 2-piece system I can transport from boat to boat.
diekthx-@reddit
Gotcha. I’m not so sure about being able to use the boat’s GNSS and also whatever is onboard the device.Â
These look neat but I don’t have one: https://www.maptattoo.com/
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Thx for that referral to MapTattoo! I checked it out immediately. Not clear if it broadcasts a Bluetooth signal to an iPad. Appears to be designed to use it's own screen only. Also, they list exactly which charts they offer, and the Adriatic Sea is not included. (Deal-breaker for me, unfortunately.)
diekthx-@reddit
It’s rare and appreciated to find someone actually looking for information rather than validation of an already made decision.Â
svhelloworld@reddit
That's exactly what we cruised with, a Garmin chartplotter in the companionway and an iPad + Bad Elf at the helm. I really loved that Bad Elf.
We have found that a Garmin Mini InReach will also broadcast a GPS location via BlueTooth. That's what we use in the backcountry now in our truck camper.
hottenniscoach@reddit
Do you have an auto pilot on your boat or wind instruments? If so, you’d probably benefit from the orca core 2. look into it. If mine died tomorrow, I would replace it in a moment.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Sounds interesting! I had a look. Seems to be an installed-type
hottenniscoach@reddit
Yes, if you don’t have a rudder indicator or an auto pilot, you’re probably not gonna benefit from it at all. If you don’t have any of that stuff, it’s no better than an iPad with a built-in GPS.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
It's my understanding that iPad GPS is broadcast from "cell" towers, and I want a satellite-based GPS input.
hottenniscoach@reddit
if you don’t have faith in the iPads GPS, go get another bad elf. I keep one on board just in case.
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
That's just it, they don't make that product anymore (as mentioned in my original post). They now offer something called the Flex Mini, which is $500 and is designed to provide messaging.
hottenniscoach@reddit
That’s such a shame! I’d sell you mine, but it’s my backup to my backup
What I like about the bad elf is, I can keep it turned on in my luggage and know exactly where I am on any flight
hottenniscoach@reddit
That is 100% false. It’s probably because iPads only come with GPS models that also have cellular built-in.
I’ve used my iPad 200 miles from any shore
LearyBlaine@reddit (OP)
Well, that's great info! Thank you! It's time for a new iPad anyway, so I'll check-out the GPS. Much appreciated. That sure would be an easy solution.
hottenniscoach@reddit
Be sure to get a dry bag you can stuff it into. I had to turn up into it once to clean up a mess on my tramps. I left the iPad at the helm. I took waves over the boat that swamped the entire thing. iPad still works, but won’t take a charge.