Holding out question | TheaterFire

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Swimming_Sky6938@reddit

Yes and no. Holding out means YOU provide the airplane and offer or advertise your services as a pilot. So it is not holding out if you offer to fly someone in an airplane that they provide and have operational control over. This you can do as a commercial pilot. It is holding out if you provide the plane or have operational control & advertise/offer your services.

You can never hold out. You can be employed/provide service as a pilot so long as you do not have operational control.

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randombrain@reddit

No, you're conflating "holding out" with "holding out a willingness to transport persons or property from place to place for compensation."

All "holding out" means is that you're advertising yourself as being willing to do Thing X.

Giving someone your resume that says "Joe Schmoe, Commercial Pilot" is "holding out" your services as a pilot and that is totally legal.

Placing an ad in the local newspaper that says "Joe's Aircraft Rentals, affordable rates" is holding out your services as an aircraft supplier and that is also totally legal.

Making a Facebook post saying "Need to go somewhere? Pay me $200/hour and I'll fly you there in my Cherokee!" is holding out your availability to transport someone, for compensation, as a package deal. That is operating as a common carrier and it requires an operating certificate. But that isn't the only kind of "holding out" you can do.

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Swimming_Sky6938@reddit

I respectfully disagree.

Read paragraph 2: sentence 2 here:
https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content_popup.aspx?cID=1093&sID=1938&preview=true

Here, see section 4 paragraph b:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%20120-12A.pdf

Here, see 10.2:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-142.pdf

I understand the point that you and others are trying to make, but I have yet to see FAA usage of “holding out” in any way not pertaining to carriage rules. Based on the context the phrase has been used in, it seems clear to me that “holding out” is never allowed for commercial pilots.

If you have an FAA document or legal interpretation that says otherwise though, please share it! I would be happy to read it and learn something.

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randombrain@reddit

Just to mention: Even though "holding out" is often used as a shorthand for "holding out as a common carrier," that is in fact a crib.

You CAN hold out as a pilot, only.

You CAN hold out as a purveyor of aircraft, only.

You CANNOT hold out as a pilot, with an aircraft, willing to transport persons or property for compensation. Because that would be holding out as a common carrier and you would need an operating certificate.

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throwaway-issues44@reddit

Thank you! I felt crazy when I was first learning about commercial pilot privileges and nobody would specify this extremely key detail.

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DearKick@reddit

Yes, i’m in aircraft management but I would also consider myself a full time contractor on several airframes, my primary means of buisness other than word of mouth is Facebook actually. Check to contract pilots group on fb to see peoples posts for examples of both soliciting pilots and advertising pilot services.

One time I went to lunch with some pilots one of which was a CFII, he asked what I do and I explained I’m a 91 corporate pilot, he said he thought I was doing common carriage, holding out, and operating illegally, I was quite offended as this is my means of putting food on the table, so I told him to go study up on the concept before he teaches it to students.

All of thus is a long winded way to say, dont feel bad, even experienced pilots have trouble understanding this.

The easiest way I have ever been explained it is this: the 3 P’s rule. Pilot, Plane, Pay. You can have 2 of the 3 at any given time, but not all 3.

Example: you can be the Pilot and be Paid but cant provide Plane. You can be Pilot and provide Plane but not be Paid.

Remember 3 P’s

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nightlanding@reddit

It is a little stricter than that actually. The FAA considers hours as pay even if you get no cash. To have passengers pay ANY amount they want to see prior association and common purpose and they want an even split.

Good - You and your friends want to go to Block Island. You all split the rental or the fuel.

Bad - Some guy you don't know wants to go to Block Island, even if you split the cost or it is guys you do know but you don't want to go there yourself.

This gets violated about 1,000 times a day, it is all good until someone complains to the FAA they had no idea airplanes cost that much, someone gets hurt, or someone says something around a 135 pilot to get their interest.

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DearKick@reddit

Yes, thats true. The rule still holds true, just consider free hours as pay. When you fly pax in your own plane, you should never make them pay a dime for expenses. Generally when you fly them in your own plane you are doing it out of the kindness of your heart anyways.

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Wemest@reddit

I’ve known people that flew 135 with their own plane. Basically he had a 135 operation and the plane was on the certificate.

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x4457@reddit

Yes.

You may be a chef and work in someone else's restaurant or be a private chef for someone, but you can't run your own restaurant.

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mcmanigle@reddit

I feel like this analogy should always end with "and you can't cook food in your kitchen and sell it on the street, or rent a food truck or something either" because a lot of the weird scenarios people come up with are analogous to those.

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Av8torryan@reddit

You can rent the food truck- but have to cook the menu they chose . . (Dry Lease agreement )

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PM_ME_YOUR_PITOTTUBE@reddit

*without a part 119 certificate

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dbhyslop@reddit

I think this is why the analogy works so well. You can open your own restaurant, but only with a business license and health inspections.

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JumboTrijet@reddit

134 and 1/2. It’s the real deal

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theshawnch@reddit

You can be the paid pilot in someone else’s plane.

Or

You can supply the plane.

You can’t do both. Only exception being the list of approved jobs like instruction, survey, jumpers, etc.

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__joel_t@reddit

I've heard it said, "Pilot, Plane, Paid. Pick 2."

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mdb_4633@reddit

I’ve heard a 15 minute long explanation with 10 different faa reference saying the same thing

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OriginalJayVee@reddit

That’s actually kinda genius.

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ltcterry@reddit

“Holding out” means something specific to the FAA.

“I want to fly your airplane” is not holding out.

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nightlanding@reddit

I really really need a job and will fly your airplane for you can be on a billboard and it is legal. Even hinting you can get an airplane too - not so much.

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nightlanding@reddit

Yes it is exactly right. Ever since Buddy Holly got killed on a charter flight (not kidding!), we have Part 135 for supplying the plane AND pilot. I had to take a 135 checkride before I could supply both.

Do not get caught doing 134.5 charters, plenty of people try and scheme around 135 and the real 135 operators turn them in.

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Curious-Owl6098@reddit

restaurant, Chef, or pay. You get to pick 2 out of the three. If you stick with that you’ll be good. Some people make up wild ass scenarios that will never happen to you as a low time commercial pilot. Realistically once guy get the cert you don’t find a job. So then you get CFI then complain about how you can’t get a job. Then you work as a ramp guy and wait until you get an opportunity.

Holding out is an old timey word. In aviation it basically just means advertising transportation of people or stuff from point A-B for money. It can be direct or indirect advertising. Even word of mouth counts.

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storm-drake@reddit

Beware that your employer is also not holding out without proper leasing agreements setup and an air carrier certificate when needed. YOU, the pilot, might not be violating regulations yourself, but your ass is also on the line if your boss is getting paid/compensated for you to fly their friends when they come along on the flight.

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awkwarddachshund@reddit

I don't understand it either. I just hold out these nuts whenever I want to

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ScotJon@reddit

My understanding:

Common carriage requires ALL of the 4 below

Compensation
Point A to point B
People or cargo
Holding out

Holding out applies to any willingness or advertisement of your services to provide pilot service

AND

Consideration of operation control

If you have operational control, you cannot also provide pilot services. Any type of leasing of an aircraft to provide pilot services is dubious (dry vs wet lease). Any willingness to provide pilot services to the general public, even via a third party agent is not allowed

In general you need a 119 cert (usually 135), if you are providing any pilot services to the general public. If you want to provide pilot services to someone that owns their own aircraft, that is at the heart of part 91 commercial operation

Also check exceptions under private (61.113) or commercial (119.1)

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AutothrustBlue@reddit

The problem is pilots are so humble that they would never post about themselves on Facebook ever.

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_-Cleon-_@reddit

Pretty much.

It makes more sense when you realize that the goal of the requirement is to make sure that CPLs aren't running their own airlines or taxi services. If you want to go down that road, the FAA wants to make sure that you jump through all the hoops to form a proper Part 135. And if you want to be a fancy limo driver, they want to make sure that someone else is responsible for maintaining the car.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

I cannot seem to understand this concept so maybe someone can dumb it down. As a (future) commercial pilot I can completely hold out my services as a PILOT. So I can post on Facebook and tell everyone I’m a pilot and will fly their planes for them. However I cannot say that I can fly anyone and everyone in MY plane. Does that sound right?

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