Most people think they could feed themselves if they had to. This calculator shows why they’re wrong
Posted by A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 138 comments
I built a tool that works backwards from calories to seeds. Accounts for germination failure, pest losses and your climate zone. Please take a look and let me know if this is useful. It’s all free, no sign-up, no catch.
Just would like to thank, in advance, all those who say they’ve been growing food for 20 years and this is rubbish. This is not for you, this is those of us whose only experience is a couple of growbags of tomatoes each year.
Major outcome of the site? Keep a couple of bags of quinoa at the back of the fridge…..
https://www.foodwhentheshopsstop.com/
johnnyringo1985@reddit
There’s some flaws. When my sheep are grazing on buds grass and clover clover, that is not a zero-sum tradeoff with my caloric needs.
I don’t eat Bermuda grass and clover; I have Bermuda grass and clover pasture; sheep magically turn my Bermuda grass and clover pasture into lamb chops; these lamb chops did not come at the expense of carrots, onions, or anything else I would consume.
shikkonin@reddit
Yes, they did - you could have grown vegetables on the pastures.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I probably need to adjust livestock to the climate zone. Here I the UK you need to supplement their feed in the cold winters.
Drakolora@reddit
I don’t understand the calculations for sheep. Yes, I have to grow hay for winter feed, but hay is not in the produce list? I’m sure the sheep would like to get wheat and barley all winter long, but that is not realistic.
Maus666@reddit
Wow this is so neat. Thank you!
BaylisAscaris@reddit
One of the best prepping strategies is starting with a hobby garden. You learn so much, even on a small scale. When I first started I was very ambitious and made a lot of mistakes. Now that I'm more experienced I can make every seed count and also save seeds. For anyone looking to get into it, do some research on permaculture. You don't need to do a lot of work if you let nature help you. The cool thing about permaculture gardens is they generally don't need watering and fertilizer once established, so if there's a situation where supplies/water aren't possible, you're fine. Also it's easy to ramp up production quickly by putting more effort into it. If you have limited time, plant fruit and nut trees. They produce a lot over the years. Pick native species for less upkeep.
You can also make better use of limited space by planting densely instead of mulching. As an example, last year I grew over 100 pounds of food on 8 cubic feet. Since we got seeds for free or from saving them, and didn't need to buy supplies, we ended up spending around $4 total on that spot, and saved a lot of money on groceries. On top of that, we shared with the whole neighborhood, so they started bringing us gifts like food and plants. Plus we got them excited about gardening, so now most of the neighborhood is planting crops this year, and we're being more social.
Bored_Acolyte_44@reddit
As a fellow gardener, no one is sustaining themselves with a hobby garden.
AdministrationOk1083@reddit
Depends. I'm building a plot of sunchokes that could sustain my family on exclusively tubers. Que the fart jokes. The bees will appreciate it, as will I their honey. Then there's the peach pear apple cherry English walnut hazelnut chestnut trees for sugars, and the maple trees for syrup. A canner and 50x70 of vegetables. Double that rasp, strawberries, elderberry, blueberry, kiwi. Mix some chickens and a pig or two amongst the trees carefully and we'll likely survive til I run out of insulin
Iron_Eagl@reddit
How many are you planting?!? Best info I can find is the tubers are around 110 calories per cup. So... a gallon of tubers per day per person for survival calories. Nuts, berries, eggs help, but still!
AdministrationOk1083@reddit
I'm building up a 110'x50' plot. Once it's established I'm going to spread the seeds and tubers to nearby unmaintained ditches. The usda says 2 pounds per sq ft, and there's 340 call per pound from memory. That's enough calories for 5 adults for the whole year. 3 English walnut trees at 100 pounds per established tree at 3400 cal per pound gives you another person and a half. I've enough other things planted for 5-10 more people once they're established. I'm hoping I can feed some neighbour's or trade for wheat and beef
nada1979@reddit
Not trying to at the moment. I scale up each year and try growing new things. If shtf, my family can live off of our stored and rotated canned/dry goods while making a bigger garden that we will can work in (right now I do 95% of the work). If this happens, we will have lots more free time to garden then we currently have. The only thing I wish we did now that we haven't done is to have fruit and nut trees growing as they take years to establish (hubs isn't on board with this idea yet, but he said he would think about it.)
Bored_Acolyte_44@reddit
As someone years in on the fruits and nut trees the sooner you start the better.
Also some are going to die in that process.
There really is no way to scale up fast enough to feed your family and everyone who is going to be pickng and tending crops without an established farm ahead of time.
The inputs needed alone at that level are insane.
Like once you start talking about sustainment of multiple people gardening goes out and farming is in.
kellyasksthings@reddit
No, but they’re learning those skills and ridding themselves f the notion that they could, lol
nada1979@reddit
Thank you and I am building confidence too
Bored_Acolyte_44@reddit
This is a legit take and probably the best takeaway.
Hot-Profession4091@reddit
No, but it will build the skills you’d need if you suddenly had to quadruple the size of your plot and for Some Reason™️ had a lot more time to spend on it.
BigJSunshine@reddit
SO TRUE! I just tried to plant zucchini for the first time. My beets, carrots, radish and tomatoes are fine. The slugs have destroyed my zucchini
Greyeyedqueen7@reddit
You need ducks. Nothing goes after slugs like ducks do. That's how we got into ducks.
nada1979@reddit
So true. Every time i plant my "container garden" I learn how much I suck at it, but I do suck a little less each year.
FartingWithStyle@reddit
Alot of growing in containers is location of the plants.
ImNotAWhaleBiologist@reddit
I find they work better at the top.
FartingWithStyle@reddit
True, but also where they’re placed relative to the sun.
ragun2@reddit
That's why I enjoy it. I don't have to be good at it right away, it seems like a useful, relaxed hobby I can work on over years.
And I guess if it ever has to go from hobby to survival, I know more now than I did two years ago so it won't be just starting from scratch and failure could mean going hungry or straight up starving.
shadowlid@reddit
My buddy at work got me looking into permaculture. I'm guessing that's what it is, there is a fungus, that feeds the plants for glucose in return even breaking down rocks to gather potassium etc. (This is a very simplified explanation of it) But I'm going to start each small field we have doing this as it takes years to get it fully up and going and to the point you never have to buy fertilizer, first mistake I made was tilling the garden as the sun kills all the beneficial microbes.
KTeacherWhat@reddit
There is neither corn nor fruit trees on this list.
TheMrsH1124@reddit
Jerusalem artichoke is perennial and invincible
macnof@reddit
Almost, heavy cultivation will kill them just fine.
TheMrsH1124@reddit
You know what I mean 😂
macnof@reddit
Oh yes, I ran my cultivator through that bloody patch every week for two months to kill them.
TheMrsH1124@reddit
😂😂😂 dedication!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Corn appears if you choose the right climate zone
Mission_Reply_2326@reddit
I picked my own climate zone and corn wasn’t an option. Corn is one of my main crops! I have braids of corn hanging on my walls…. I think this page is still incredibly useful though. The reality is you need a lot of space to actually grow enough food to live off of.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
Mission_Reply_2326@reddit
Awesome! Thanks! I don’t think I understood that you created this- excellent work!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I’m adding the ability to add any vegetable……
KTeacherWhat@reddit
I see what happened. Corn actually can be grown in boreal climates, but the other issue is that I chose boreal because my winter months were closer to the one listed there, rather than continental. I have a shorter summer than you listed for continental, but have successfully grown two different corn cultivars.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Please share them as I struggle where I am in the maritime zone.
hoardac@reddit
We can grow corn with time to spare here in zone 4. I start them about 2 weeks before last frost and it has worked great so far. I know how many I want plant and I start extras so there is no wasted spots in the rows.
KTeacherWhat@reddit
We don't live in the same kind of climate. The cultivars that are good for me won't be good for you.
professor_jeffjeff@reddit
Fruit trees and berries. Those are the backbone of my permaculture food forest. The calculator also (presumably) neglects density as well as aggressive succession planting. Trust me, you can get some pretty massive plant density if you plan things carefully. Things like vertical gardening, hydroponics, aquaponics, etc. can all add up.
epicmoe@reddit
arent onions biennial? except i guess walking/egyptian onions.
KTeacherWhat@reddit
Yes, technically, but since they reseed themselves they can be treated as perennials.
epicmoe@reddit
well most things reseed themselves.
i have a bed of rocket (arugula) that comes back every year, but its an annual.
MurlocAndHandler@reddit
This is very cool, but I'll echo others that it would be awesome if you included more seeds like tomatoes and peppers and such. Thanks for sharing!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added these and a lot more now on the crops page.
MurlocAndHandler@reddit
Amazing!
BaylisAscaris@reddit
I noticed the calorie counter on your site isn't adjustable. I'm a woman and when my meds run out my BMR is 900 calories/day. Even with heavy activity the number of calories I need tops out at 1500.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Yes, the minimum calories for a woman is 2040 per day at the moment. I will think about an even lower level.
gillbeats@reddit
Came to say that possibly the calories when doing physical effort seem a bit skewed towards the extreme all of those categories
Whoajaws@reddit
Need to be able to switch to acres
aggyaggyaggy@reddit
I'm a lurker of this sub at best but I am incredibly impressed with this site.
Virtual_Ad5748@reddit
Historical average is 2-3 people fed per hectare farmed. Based on primitive farming options. Minimal calorie diversity but ideally wheat. I don’t see how most modern people could successfully farm at that level. Also, about half of all global farmland is only useable with modern fertilizer and farming technologies.
Fredarius@reddit
Number 1 skill is learning how to cook from scratch.
leisurechef@reddit
Does the when to sow/harvest take into account northern/southern hemispheres?
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
No, good point!
NaperVillainBunny@reddit
You're forgetting about how I'd just blast rabbits and ducks and go keto.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Don’t forget about “Rabbit Disease”, you do really need some carbs from somewhere - https://theprepared.com/blog/rabbit-starvation-why-you-can-die-even-with-a-stomach-full-of-lean-meat/
westu_hal@reddit
Rabbit starvation is lack of fat not carbs. Also highly unlikely unless you're only eating lean starved rabbit for months at a time (like the middle of winter). I feed my meat rabbits alfalfa and yard forage and they are FAT at harvest time.
Spectres_N7@reddit
Do You personally harvest your rabbits? Also, do you freeze them after harvesting or store them another way?
westu_hal@reddit
Yes. We chill them in an ice bath while harvesting and then vacuum seal individually and freeze. If I had the setup I could see canning the meat.
WrathOfGood@reddit
Yes, but hunted rabbit and farm grown rabbits have a very different nutrient density. Meat rabbits bred for nutrient density, kept in cages, and fed with very little activity have a lot more fat on the carcass than hunted rabbits that regularly burn calories in a fight or flight behavior.
mediocre_remnants@reddit
Rabbit disease is about lack of fat, not lack of carbs. And adult humans don't even need carbs to live, but will die in 2 months without protein and in 6 months without fat.
Based on your comments here, I honestly don't think you're qualified to develop the app you developed. There is more to nutrition than calories.
NaperVillainBunny@reddit
I mean, I wouldn't eat it raw. I've done keto for months on end with only 20 grams of carbs a day.
I have plenty of rice, pasta , oats, beans.
NaperVillainBunny@reddit
Ps. Duck meat has fat. And their skin. Fat is converted to ketones on low carb diets. High protein can also go through gluconeogenesis and convert to carbs as seen with Atkins dieters.
hoardac@reddit
We could do it in a bind just gotta adjust some plans. We have enough permaculture plants to feed quite a few people and wild animals. I would probably trade some fresh fruit/ freeze dried for oats and eggs. I will say of your not practicing a hobby garden and see what grows well in your area, you should be. I took a while to get good at growing the right things for our land.
Scribblebonx@reddit
This was neat. I really enjoyed it.
backcountry_knitter@reddit
In addition to the many crop shortfalls mentioned by others, especially perennial crops, there are no options for nuts. We grow a very wide variety of crops, but we also cultivate nut trees. Our native nut varieties are hickory nuts, black walnuts, butternuts (white walnuts), acorns, hazelnuts, chestnuts (though only of hybrid or Chinese origin now). We also have pecans, which are not native here but do ok. These are important calorie dense foods and the ones not suitable for people to eat are good supplemental food for livestock.
I have to echo others that the climate options are very limited, and maybe not the best metric. Nothing on the list really fits my climate well at all.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I’m adding an override function so you can add veg not normally associated with your zone….
backcountry_knitter@reddit
That’s excellent. There’s good potential here, thanks for sharing!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
Infamous_Try3063@reddit
Missing so many climate types too. A large portion of the us is humid continental.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Ok, will bear this in mind.
stream_inspector@reddit
Your app wouldn't allow me to select any mammals for hunting. Also, much of what I grow wasn't there to select.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
WrathOfGood@reddit
It’s an insightful program. Much is missing from my growing conditions in central Texas. I have been eating breakfast every morning for the last two months by picking mulberries and blackberries out of the yard. The mulberries are just about done for the year. Still have blackberries coming though. My grapes will be ripening soon. My blueberries are just now starting to ripen though and my figs will be harvestable in another couple weeks, and will produce WAY more than we can possibly eat daily. So they will go into preserves or into the freezer for later consumption. Next year the mulberry tree will produce such more than I could eat for breakfast, so I will have mulberry preserves next year too.
The sunchokes don’t really require anything but water to produce a lot of crop, and they keep very well in the ground, so I just dig them up with a broadfork as needed throughout the winter.
My citrus trees, kumquats, limes, lemons, satsumas all have their crops ripen in the late fall/early winter through late winter here, so that’s another very enjoyable nutrient source for me.
I get many pounds of all kinds of peppers and eggplant that thrive in our late summer extreme heat. I’ve also got a lot of herbs/spices/aromatics that grow well in my climate, but like you mentioned, not a lot of calories in those spices/herbs, but quite a bit from my tree and berry crops.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
No fruits yet but I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
PaulTR88@reddit
Would like to see more variety in the crops, but cool little tool.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Working on it now....
NWYthesearelocalboys@reddit
I really like the concept but had to play around with climate zones to get options I grow now and it was still a fraction of what I grow.
Can you put in an option to override climate restrictions? If I'm understanding right the site is factoring in natural wet seasons? Some of us have the ability to produce water without grid power or have other regional anomalies.
I grow rice, tomatoes, squash, pumpkin, bell pepper, grapes, jujubees, and more in Az.
The part of AZ I am in is Arid from about October to June and Sub Tropical from July-September.
We also have an abundance of mesquite beans. And a few fruit trees.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thanks, I will consider how to add a layer of customisation to the plant choices.
Derfel60@reddit
Its a cool calculator but is missing a lot of crops. Theres no tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers, garlic, corn, courgette, aubergine etc etc for temperate climate. If it was fully stocked with crops selection it would be an amazing resource.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have added a button on the Crops page that shows a ton of other veg. Hopefully, some that you grow are on there.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I have focused on the high carbohydrate crops as these are the ones they make all the difference, and whether you would make it through the winter or not. Once you’ve got these sorted the you can freely grow all your favourites.
hiaokk@reddit
Hi h carbohydrate is important, but so as protein! Is there a way to improve this amazing calculator with calculation of how much of your harvest will contain carbohydrates and protein?
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
I will have a think!
Derfel60@reddit
Fair enough, i just think it would be cool to see other things as well.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I will have a think about adding in more vegetable seed choices.
TheMrsH1124@reddit
Cowpeas would be nice to have added. They grow excellently in southern US with almost no care needed
epicmoe@reddit
depending on your climate, wheat, oats, potatoes, corn, rice are really the big ones for calorie density, throw them in and some beans. all of which are fairly easy to grow.
GormTheWyrm@reddit
Wait, do potatoes only last 4-6 weeks? I thought they held up much longer than that.
androgenoide@reddit
Pretty cool but... I noticed that it asks about livestock but doesn't do any estimates of what is needed to provide for the animals.
Of course, trying to calculate acreage/calories for something like that would be opening a can of worms and I understand why it would be left out so don't take this as a criticism.
infinitum3d@reddit
Fully agree with you.
There are a couple weeks in September when I’ve eaten only what comes out of my garden. That’s a couple weeks after six months of growing. That’s a couple weeks out of a fifty two week year.
I have enough canned and freeze dried shelf stable foods for a family of 4 to last 6 months. I can supplement that with foraging, gardening, hunting, trapping, and fishing, but I still pray the grocery stores stay open.
Good luck!
Nufonewhodis4@reddit
Nice tool. Definitely a reality check for those who don't already have experience growing lots of food!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
👍
lunar_adjacent@reddit
First of all this is one of the coolest tools I’ve ever come across and the calendar at the end is chefs kiss
This also encourages my thought process and the plans I have in the future, for example meat rabbits, bee hive, and adopting a rooster (when we get to the point where we’re not following zoning laws anymore).
I am sure in the future people will be able to add their own resources (other things that I grow), and also adding domestic pets to the group would be helpful.
Great work. Thank you for this.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you so much!! My wife asked why I didn’t have a pets section! Working on it….
Knight_of_r_noo@reddit
Not perfect but what is? Thanks for putting this together. Printing a paper copy just in case
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
That’s exactly the use I was hoping for.
MegC18@reddit
As a long time vegetable gardener - not all plants work in all sites, even within a small area. Soil composition and nutrients are very influential, as are microclimates and especially the pests that occur in the area.
I thought I had enough land to grow my yearly potato requirements. The plants grew vigorously in my newly cleared land, and everything seemed fine. Then harvest came along, and I discovered that the grassed area I cleared was infested with wireworms! Every potato (from a large harvest -think thirty plants) was tunnelled with them. I dare say if you were starving, it would be extra protein, but it was repulsive. I grow my potatoes in growsacks now.
Similarly, I tried celeriac and they were completely hollow as slugs love them so much. However, I grow magnificent onions, garlic, all types of beans, artichokes, beets, many kilos of currants and plums, and now hazel and chestnut. And about thirty types of herbs.
I probably couldn’t feed myself. But I would have some decent trade goods. And if I could shoot the pigeons that eat my seedlings, there would be protein.
MimiButter528@reddit
This is a cool tool! Thanks for making it!
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
👍✌️🙂
legoham@reddit
Nice project. I'd love to see water needs, too. When the shops stop, piped water probably will, too.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Yep, good point.
macnof@reddit
Cool!
A bit of feedback:
The typical Kale grown here in Denmark withstands about -20°, so it keeps well in winter. I think it's called curly kale in English.
We have summer leek and winter leek. Summer leek is the leek you have in the calculator, while the winter version is slightly better energy vise, but also slightly tougher. They can handle at least -10°, but -20° is normal with a bit of straw covering.
We also have a winter version of carrots, while they dont handle more than a degree of frost, they'll store perfectly fine if covered in straw. We normally feed the last of last years crop to our livestock when we start harvesting next years crop.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Excellent feedback, especially about the summer and winter leeks. Will work this in somehow.
fruitloops6565@reddit
Awesome work!! Really interesting.
A few bits of feedback as I went through it.
Animals page, add the +\- signs for mobile. Much easier than click and type and tick.
Show the cal cost per day in the description.
Also there could be an option for animals wild fed. If you have lots of space ect do chickens really have to be 100% grain fed year round? Maybe % of feed from stores?
On crops, could you add available non animal cultivation space? Idk how much land my supposed crops were going to take up.
Also could add to the boxes the calorie per sqm farmed.
And maybe flag on the final page the crop calories produced by month. I might make enough but if the calories are all potatoes I need to store them for 9months somehow.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you! All great feedback. I am working on other feedback now, will take a look at yours soon…
Hambokuu@reddit
Oh neat! I can do it! Provided I double my available land...
Additional_Dish_694@reddit
I know with 1000% percent certainty that my family could not feed themselves - thus my worries 😵💫
nakedonmygoat@reddit
People don't often realize what goes into growing and raising food, as well as the many things that can derail your efforts. I don't know about other countries, but your average American does not or cannot grow even enough food for a few decent salads. Their backyard roses and tomatoes do well, so they think they can immediately ramp up to full self-sufficiency if there's a catastrophe tomorrow.
Then there is the historical reality. Historically, humans have never gone it alone for long. They traded with neighbors, even if those "neighbors" were 100 miles away or more. Self-sufficiency will get you through a short term crisis, by which I mean anything up to a few years, but long term survival requires other people. It's not an accident that once humans turned to agriculture and livestock, as opposed to nomadic hunting and gathering, towns and markets sprang up.
Secret_Enthusiasm_21@reddit
I think in the space that you would have to put all the tools and stuff you need for your garden, you can easily store decades worth of beans and rice. And a box with vitamins and stuff.
westu_hal@reddit
I just did the calculator and while others have pointed out its shortcomings I think it provides a great thought exercise! I don't have enough garden space to even begin to feed our family solely off of crops (in a boreal/arctic climate) but that's where foraging, hunting, and fishing come into play.
Grain and livestock crops are our biggest problem here. I am going to try to grow barley as microgreens for our meat rabbits/ sprouted seeds for chickens this summer and see if I can keep it going through the winter. Microgreens are highly nutritious and more realistic to grow even in the dead of winter, provided we use lights and seed mats for germination, and the animals converting plant matter to meat/eggs is a much better conversion than trying to grow barley purely for grain. There are lots of ways to use and consume grains without purely resorting to bread or porridge!
eco-greenman@reddit
Well done
This looks great
zenitram66@reddit
I think some people think the food in their pantries alone can sustain for longer than a few days because no one realizes how malnourished they are. They think "I get by on two Graham crackers and an apple with coffee with 32 oz. of water all the time, I'll be fine." I've actually heard a coworker make this declaration when someone else brought up their food shortage concerns recently.
nakedonmygoat@reddit
I see this even with Tuesday scenarios. I once had someone ask me why I'd want to be able to cook after a hurricane, since "Why would I want hot food when it's hot outside?" Aside from parsing the utter ridiculousness of that statement, which could take paragraphs, this guy had four children. I guess his plan was to feed his kids crackers and peanut butter, or maybe lukewarm canned tuna for two weeks until they got power again.
We lost touch, thank goodness, but did get a significant hurricane a few years later. I've sometimes wondered how well his "plan" worked out for him and his family, or whether his wife had more brains than he did and saved the day.
Incendiaryag@reddit
Hobby gardens teach you skills and could be a flavor feel good to subsidize a plain, hard times diet of stored preps (even small amounts of the right fresh fruits or veggies can prevent scurvy). But yes its a lot to harvest, forage, hunt, and fish enouvh calories to stay alive and most are being silly even with a solid home garden to imagine its a major food source.
johnnyringo1985@reddit
Yeah, the specific number of calories for every climate choice seems like it’s tailored to UK-specific feeding/foraging and UK-specific wool-producing breeds.
TheTrevist@reddit
It’s not working. Keeps going back to step one. Love the idea though.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Oh, that’s odd. If there’s anymore detail you can provide, I’ll take a look.
There_Are_No_Gods@reddit
What a fun project. I took a look, and it got me thinking about a few things. That said, overall I think it still needs a ton of work to be very useful.
For example, the partial inclusion of livestock seems unhelpful at the moment. Apparently chickens just steal random food from humans (additional calories needed to feed them) and don't provide any eggs for humans to consume. In practice, chickens can largely just forage if given enough good land to work with, even though in the good times now people often just buy in feed for them.
If you want to include livestock inputs and outputs such as animal feed into this, that's a whole other level of complexity that's not yet remotely addressed in this tool. Livestock generally provide calories for humans, often a lot of them. They also consume massive quantities of food and require huge amounts of land and water, although, there's a long spectrum there from meat rabbits and chickens to beef cattle.
The proportional setup is also a bit backwards to me, where it would likely be more helpful to most people to see a recommendation of the split across their desired crops, or otherwise help them understand that for a given space, potatoes will provide exponentially more calories than leafy greens. The sliders could be set to a reasonable default, and then they could adjust dynamically. The current implication is that it's reasonable to set potatoes to 2% and Kale to 98% of the harvested calories.
It is misleading as a slider of "% calories from swiss chard" would correlate to massive changes in land use, etc. In practice, you simply can't crank up most veggies like that and actually farm enough of that on the land and with the time and resources available to generate the calories implied by the slider.
Overall, it's an interesting endeavor, but for it to be of much use to anyone, I think there's still a massive amount of work that'll need to go into thinking things through more and building out the features and related systems.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the detailed feedback.
There_Are_No_Gods@reddit
Put another way, I think there's a lot of potential utility here, for giving people much more insight into the tradeoffs between land area required and which crops they focus on. Being able to set a limit, such as "my max plot area", then play around with sliders that are clamped within that limit, could really let people better see which crops actually make sense for them from a calorie perspective, as well as explore how many calories they'd be giving up for some of the more high nutrient or tastier crops as compared to the high caloric density crops.
Supporting a few different approaches could be nice too, where you could alternatively clamp the required calories, then slide the crop percentages around and watch the land use that would require dynamically update.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
All good ideas!
There_Are_No_Gods@reddit
I did later notice the land use column. What I think would make that stand out better, though, is to tie it more directly into the sliders, and to display it as a 2D grid type map. It's one thing to see on a later page 34m2 vs. 893m2, but it's another thing entirely to see a tiny square dwarfed by another block of similar proportions and to see that react while moving the sliders.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Sounds tricky to program, but I’ll consider giving it a go!
There_Are_No_Gods@reddit
Heh, yeah, as a professional video game tools programmer, I am likely throwing out approaches that may require more work than your use case merits.
If you have access to it, though, something like Claude Code Opus, or even Sonnet maybe, could crank through this type of programming work very quickly. I've been using that to create lots of similar tools lately.
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you! I will definitely explore this.
opendefication@reddit
It's been a wake-up call for me keeping produce of some kind rolling out of the garden as small market gardener. One of the keys to making a buck is being consistently, week after week at the market with something. I would say it's a fairly solid comparison to maybe coming close to feeding yourself. It's as much planning and knowing what grows when as it is back breaking labor. I would be interested in dropping my routine into a calculator and see how it fares.
Femveratu@reddit
My goal is to have 2-3 years of base calories (for four) covered by my food storage, essentially to provide time for a proper transition to growing, hunting, fishing, trapping or otherwise obtaining the calories we need in a longer term SHTF type event.
Experience, sheer acreage, crop volumes and crop varieties would be absolutely key to try and replace those calories.
Bonus would be for anyone w live stock that can survive and thrive on grazing alone w the land to support it.
Your post is a very sobering reminder of how hard it is and (potentially expensive) to replace the base calories our current system does relatively cheaply.
leajcl@reddit
Growing food is a lot more difficult that I thought.
silentaba@reddit
I could probably sustain myself.
If I had around a decade to prepare, a couple acres of good land, a reliable water source, and a bunch of spare cash.
Miss_L_Worldwide@reddit
Don't forget a completely functional body with no injuries or illnesses!
pac87p@reddit
That's cool thanks
A-Matter-Of-Time@reddit (OP)
Thank you!
DogsAreOurFriends@reddit
It would be a tremendous challenge.