What do you think about same-sex adoption? Why do so many people in the Balkans still have such a hard time accepting it?
Posted by Substratas@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 112 comments
azuratios@reddit
Should have been legalised since 2008 but better late than ever. Politicians were and are exploiting the lower educated population to obtain votes (now with the "trans-bathroom-scare"), while they could freely adopt and pay surrogates decades before passing it as law.
There is no excuse really in the age of the internet to believe that homosexual couples are less able than heterosexual couples.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Not even most of western countries accept it ,this should not be our problem,we are too poor to think about irrelevant stuff like this that would make happy a tiny group of ppl.
dancesquared@reddit
> we are too poor to think about irrelevant stuff like this
Maybe if you let good parents who happen to be the same sex adopt and raise unwanted or orphaned kids, you wouldn’t be so poor as a society.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Oh really,which societies are doing it and thriving economically?
That just bs and completely irrelevant to how poor you are
dancesquared@reddit
Western European countries (especially Nordic ones) and the Anglosphere (U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand).
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
You know that the they started to implement it very recently max 20 years ago ???so werent they already rich before???stupid af
dancesquared@reddit
It’s all part of a general open-minded and progressive mentality that helps with long-term success.
The point is, backwards-thinking countries will have subpar outcomes.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
They were already rich before being so open-minded ,stop pushing that idiocy ,it is ridiculous to think those countries are rich because they allowed same sex couple to adopt kids a couple of years ago ,when is Greece going to get as rich as the Swedes?😂😂😂
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Well, I can tell you one thing for sure - regardless if Albania legalizes it or not, it will never be on the same level as Sweden or for that matter even Greece
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Legalizing it or not has nothing to do on how rich you are or will become
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
And humping goats has nothing to do with how poor you are or will become but you bet a country where homosexual people can adopt is probably richer than a country where people hump goats, no?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Idk what goats have to do with our discussion ,
Italy does not allow and Greece does ,Italy is richer ,you are factually wrong.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Exactly, it has nothing to do with the discussion. It is a trait of some people in underdeveloped countries. When will you see Swedes humping goats? They don't do that. And it's the same with homosexuals adopting children. It's a trait of developed countries. One of many traits. If one developed country doesn't have a specific trait, it doesn't automatically mean it is not developed or that the trait is not for developed countries. On it's own it doesn't mean much but it is part of a broader set of characteristics that developed nations have and underdeveloped don't
SpecialistLeast3582@reddit
You just seem to be bigoted for randomly pivoting to goat humping. Projecting..?
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Projecting what?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
That you humped a goat,did you really??
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Who did you see humping goats??Im lost at this part unless you are trying to say smth very racist
dancesquared@reddit
Individual rights, freedoms, and responsibilities are contributing factors to wealth and success, and this issue is just one example of that.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
You just Italy pretty poor and underdeveloped😂😂
Italy is top 10 and even top 5 worldwide for many metrics ,you are clearly biased and very ignorant on these topics,im done with so much ignorance,bye bye
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Italy and Greece ,who is richer and more developed??
dancesquared@reddit
They’re both pretty poor and underdeveloped to be honest.
dancesquared@reddit
You’re getting lost in the details (and perhaps you’re being blinded by your bigotry).
Western European and Anglo societies have been far more progressive and open-minded than the rest of the world on many issues, same-sex adoption just being one of the latest.
Again, it’s just one example out of many. It’s not directly linked to success, but it’s part of an overall sociocultural environment that is correlated with success.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
> we are too poor to think about irrelevant stuff like this
Maybe if you let good parents who happen to be the same sex adopt and raise unwanted or orphaned kids, you wouldn’t be so poor as a society.
This was what you wrote ,it is impossible to defend this idiocy and you are changing subject,cool story bro
dancesquared@reddit
Again, it’s one example of an overall mentality.
And your responses are doing nothing to dispel the belief that you’re working with a closed-minded mentality.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Ok im close minded you are open minded but it does not change that what you wrote at the beginning is clearly stupid af ,that is not an example ,that is exaclty what we were talking about and you said “ if you do that you will become rich”
dancesquared@reddit
“if you do that you will become rich”
Where’s that quote coming from? Misquoting me isn’t helping your case.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
Maybe if you let good parents who happen to be the same sex adopt and raise unwanted or orphaned kids, you wouldn’t be so poor as a society.
“You would not be so poor” richer should Ive written
dancesquared@reddit
That sentence starts with a “maybe.” Perhaps you missed that. I’m not saying “you will.” I’m saying “maybe.” It probably wouldn’t hurt, as evidenced by relevant laws in successful countries.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
And I said that is stupid af because it is not relevant and you started talking about smth else
dancesquared@reddit
I’m talking about overall mentality. I have been the whole time.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
You said this about Italy and then deleted your comment,bye dude
Substratas@reddit (OP)
But who is making it your problem? It’s you who is making it someone else’s problem by thinking they shouldn’t be allowed to adopt because ”you’re too poor”.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
It is someones else problem and you are making it my problem by saying “ whys such hard time accepting it”
I never said they should not be allowed to adopt ,you are just lying at this point.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
i'm.neutral, let's see how it goes. present your argument as to why anyone should accept it
Latter_Summer5912@reddit
Because there isn’t a difference between same sex and opposite sex adoption…?
Steakandeggs66@reddit
there's also no difference between consentual non-incestious sex and consentual incestious sex
LargeFriend5861@reddit
The power dynamic, as well as the risks to the family dynamic. Not to mention the deformities that can be passed on through such behavior.
Mean_Improvement_814@reddit
Yeah this plus the fact that same-sex couples can’t have their own biological kids, so they’re more likely to adopt. And there are always children who need to be adopted.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
are you saying it is wrong.to have a disabled child?
Mean_Improvement_814@reddit
Well anyone can have a disabled child, of course it’s not “wrong”. But if you have children knowing that there’s a likely/guaranteed chance that there will be issues, that’s not really a good thing. Assuming we’re thinking about the future life this child will have and not just the “rights” of the parents.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
why?
by the way, since you are one of the few people who didn't attack me verbally for asking questions, i'll explain to you what my intention here was.
i don't give a fuck about what people do in their own lives, i couldn't care less. i wanted to show everyone that
Mean_Improvement_814@reddit
Why? I think it’s simple: why knowingly bring a child into this world if their existence can only be full of complications? Would we wish to be brought into the world like that? I don’t think so.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
i thought love is love? if a brother and a sister love each other so much and want kids, why not?
you don't do anything unless there is a direct gain for yourself.
prove to me that right and wrong exists
you only do if there is a gain for yourself. you do good acts, f.e help someone else, because either your society tells you it is a "good" thing to do or you feel good about yourself bc you have done a good thing.
absolutely every single fucking thing we do is exclusively for ourselves. yes ik, a hard pill to swallow
Steakandeggs66@reddit
what's wrong with a power dynamic?
same sex relations can also cause risks to the family dnymaic
are you saying it is wrong to have a disabled child?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
An unbalanced power dynamic inherently warps the views around consent, or any autonomy a person needs in a romantic relationship. Thats why dating within the workplace is often discouraged.
How can they? Literally whats risky about same-sex relationships?
In a preventable case, where the child doesn't have to be deformed, yes. In a case where you are either stuck with some kind of deformity yourself, or just get hit with bad luck, of course not.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
so does child birth. can i child consent to being born? are you saying creating offspring is therefore wrong?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
What the fuck are you even talking about? A person can't consent to existing, true. But it is our duty as people to guide them through it, and help them live as good as they can.
I am also talking about the consent between 2 adults, something which you ignored.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
so you can give fuck all about consent in that case? why is it wrong to carry out non-consentual acts in one case, but fine in the other?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
Because you fundamentally cannot get around that fact. It is how living beings operate. To reproduce, to pass the torch down to the next generation.
You also act like giving life is some inherently evil thing, when that is just untrue. If a person seeks to kill themselves, but I prevent it, that is still violating their autonomy in some way, yet its done to help them, to save them in that case.
Meanwhile, violating consent in those other ways that harm a person, or can lead to the harm of a person is just straight up evil. Literally not comparable situations.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
u can. stop having kids. if the metric is consent and if we are morally coherent, we should stop having kids.
are you saying we're all hypocrites?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
And why would you? Again, why act like having kids is inherently bad. The act of giving life is not bad.
The metric is not to violate consent in a way that harms someone, or takes away from their autonomy.
So genuinely, stop twisting words here. If this is ragebait, I'm honestly less mad and more baffled at the stupidity rn, man. Get better at your shit.
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
That is a claim ,argue for it
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
There have already been studies. Children do not have different outcomes regarding attachment styles, how successful they are going through Erik Erikson's life stages, or what their sexuality and gender outcomes are.
What's more important is consistent authoritative parenting
Steakandeggs66@reddit
weak argument.
what type of study? if you are gonna say survey let's stop talking rn. give me the sample size, socio-econimic status of those parents, health testimonies of all parties etc etc.
i've also read studies that show children are doing far better in traditional families. here
this isn't mathematics. these outcomes can not be measured
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
So I think your main thing is when you say you're neutral, you're just too afraid to admit your biases and you are in fact not neutral.
That study you linked is not peer-reviewed and not credible. All current medical boards have agreed that studies irrefutably have proven that homosexual parents are not worse than heterosexual ones, nor are they better. A few say homosexual parents have better outcomes for their kids, but most say it's more neutral.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10016267/
https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/
I am gay. I want to have kids someday in my mid-thirties, though I'm looking to go the surrogacy route. I just want a kid or two and teach them how to read and go to museums. Idk, I remember when I was 3 and how awesome seeing a T-Rex for the first time was. I wanna let my kids experience that.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
what does peer reviewed mean? who decides what is credible and what isn't?
oh so you care about opinions and not studies all of a sudden? can't opinions be bought and paid for? see this is what with "this isn't mathematics". studies are almost worthless when it comes to philosophical/moral questions.
and you're calling me biased?
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
That is the issue m8, you don't even know what peer reviewed means.
Peer reviewed means that it has been reviewed by research institutes to ensure there is an absence of bias within studies. This goes both ways. If I make a study saying gay people are better than straights and survey 10 gay doctors and then 10 straight serial killers, that would not be accepted by any research institute because that is clearly biased.
Opinions are not facts. You have biceps femoris in your legs and biceps brachii in your arms. The Earth is round. Children who grow up in authoritarian households almost always end up with insecure disorganized or insecure avoidant attachment. Those are facts.
And yes, you are still a bigot with heavy bias even if I am terrible enough to want to have a family.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
i know exactly what it means, this is to show you that your holy "studies" are SUBJECTIVE.
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
No, they are not.
What are your qualifications to dictate internationally-recognized reseadch institute-approved studies are subjective?
Again, you can be a homophobe, just don't be a coward about it.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
objevtive = non agent related
subjective = agent related
do you have the slightest idea what those terms mean?
i'm not scared of homosexuals dw
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
I think you are since you're so terrified of us having kids.
You keep having kids, we'll keep raising them.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
you are running away.
are the findings of those studies agent related yes or no?
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
Yes. Now are your parents related is the real question
Steakandeggs66@reddit
perfect there we have it. you retracted your own arguments, you said they are not subjective and now you changed your stance. the findings of your studies are subjective. they are opinions, nothing else.
oh look, he can't deal with me academically, therefore he has to attack me personally. are you sure you'll be fit to raise children? are you gonna attack them personally too?
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
No, I didn't retract anything, you're just a malaka.
They are not subjective. They are related in the sense they are two studies supporting the same hypothesis.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
you literally said they are agent relative my man. let it be, you are out of your depth.
if you get kids, don't attack them personally. be a good daddy
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
Oml and good luck with your rage baiting. Remember to blow on the spoon before eating soup and to look both ways before you cross the street
Steakandeggs66@reddit
read books. start with "ethics - inventing right and wrong" by j.l. mackie. it's a little difficult for the layman but i'm told google helps.
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
Steakandeggs66@reddit
you're making an awful image of yourself bro. u started with attacking me personally and now this. not good
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
Oh no, I don't have the approval of the closeted homophobe? What ever shall I do?
Steakandeggs66@reddit
"almost always"
"it is a fact"
you are getting overrun by your emotions, you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. these discussions are above your intellectual capacities
CockamouseGoesWee@reddit
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3430035/
https://www.aspenpsychologygroup.com/blog/attachment
Stop spreading misinformation. Can you even tell me what authoritarian parenting is since you don't even know what peer-reviewed means?
Steakandeggs66@reddit
are your studies agent related yes or no
LargeFriend5861@reddit
Even if thats true, so what? We are not arguing same-sex couples should be the only ones allowed to adopt. A lot of kids don't ever get adopted, and are just left to rot. Why do that, when we can find them actual good parents?
Steakandeggs66@reddit
are you retracting your previous argument?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
My argument was made for incestuous couples, directly replying to your example. NOT for same-sex couples.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Because they want to adopt children and the general public opionion is often the driving force behind legislative changes.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
that's not an argument. some wante to r#pe children, should we accept it too. give me a reason why the piblic opinion should change
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
That's such a bad comparison. SA is illegal regardless who performs it. Adopting is legal for heterosexual couples but not for homosexual. This implies homosexuals are lesser humans because they have fewer civil rights?
Steakandeggs66@reddit
yes because that's the public opinion. can it change? yes it can. why do you argue for the change of the public view in one case but not in the other
does a child consent to being born? ofc not. does a victim of rape consent? ofc not. so what exactly is the difference?
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Because we are talking about discriminating a specific group of people from having a specific civil right. Are you slow? SA is outlawed for everyone. If it was not, say it was legal for homosexuals to perform SA then you'd have this argument of why I'm advocating for one change but not the other. But right now there is no other change to be argued for, the change that you just invented is fictional and doesn't exist. And wtf does childbirth have to do with this?
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Thanks for deleting it. Your argument is shallow and wrong and thankfully went over my head because there is nothing important to go in instead. You are using false equivalence and inventing random stuff from your fantasies which has nothing to do with the subject.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Steakandeggs66@reddit
my argumemt went right over your head
Substratas@reddit (OP)
There’s no sane way to reason with someone who draws a parallel between the right to adopt a child vs. r*ping a child, so I’m gonna pass on that.
Steakandeggs66@reddit
you are biased and running away. i explained that creating offspring and r#ping is similar because you're giving fuck all about consent in both cases. read it.
by the metric of consent, you have to say creating offspring is wrong. is it wrong, yes or no?
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
I think that it’s a good thing given that it does increase the chances that a child will be adopted.
I do think that heterosexual couples should still be the preferred option in adoption but as I mentioned there’s a lack of adopters, beggars can’t be choosers.
As to why it’s not more widespread in the rest of the Balkans, they are more likely to larp as conservative in such matters due to higher frequency of primitivism.
SpecialistLeast3582@reddit
A child deserves a mother and a father, not 2 of one sex. Each parent has different roles for a reason.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
So it's better that a child is without any parents until they are 18 than to have any parents of the same gender?
SpecialistLeast3582@reddit
Same sex couples adopt too, it happens more often than gay couples.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
?
SpecialistLeast3582@reddit
Since you can’t figure it out, even if gay couples did or didn’t adopt, there are children that will and won’t be adopted no matter what. It is what it is. If a child gets adopted, it should be to opposite sex couples.
Mysterious-Put1459@reddit
Gay couples can't adopt. There is no "if". They can't. There are kids who never get adopted. So for you it's better to have more children without parents than let gay people adopt? What is your goal with this? What do you gain?
HighlanderAlien@reddit
If normal homo people adopt i dont mind. Zoomers are pretty rational about this so there are less chances to be bullied in scool so 70% of all problems connected to this subject are gone now. But i dont support adoption for flamingo type gays.
campkoocout@reddit
I believe it’s wrong and should be illegal.
msoc@reddit
Zašto?
campkoocout@reddit
I think it’s unnatural and not the best for the children. I could be wrong, but all the same I’d rather stick to what I know. I love my mother and father and I learned about man and woman through them and I think my development would have been incomplete otherwise.
sjedinjenoStanje@reddit
I'm married to another man and we've adopted a child who is now a teenager. Interestingly, I was able to secure her Croatian citizenship even though my husband is not a citizen and neither of us is her biological parent...so that is a bit of good news re: progress.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
I love this! 😍
zulufdokulmusyuze@reddit
All of us are normal.
Greece is being gaslighted into believing that they are Western, andthey are accepting the west’s diversions under hypnosis.
We are looking forward to the day they will come back to their senses and grow some hair again.
That is what Ares and Μιχαὴλ Κηρουλάριος would want.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
Are we?
You should worry less about Greece and more about your country.
campkoocout@reddit
Sickens me honestly. Poor children
Ace-inThe-Hole@reddit
I know right? It’s so backwards.
InExtremis-@reddit
Bro it's 4:57am why are you posting so early? Do you have a life?
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
I believe is she is a woman
InExtremis-@reddit
There are no women on reddit 😔
ThickCaterpillar9867@reddit
😂😂😂I know some are lying but there are some women here
Mushrooming247@reddit
Maybe he is an insomniac, or works the night shift, aren’t we all here at the same time?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
Because bigots be bigots. They think same-sex couples are gonna "corrupt" the kids, or even worse. When you project the worst possible image you can onto a group of people, you wouldn't want them around kids naturally.
Personally, I have 0 prejudices against them, and think its more important these kids actually find some love and get the opportunity to have a proper life... but ig we aren't on that level, yet.
Substratas@reddit (OP)
👏👏👏👏👏
noordsider@reddit
Heavy religious indoctrination. Plus stigma. There's just not enough real world exposure to people that they personally care about that have grown on them to actually change mass consensus.
I am indifferent