Why are we so afraid of/against the 15 minute city?
Posted by yourinternetmobsux@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 81 comments
Posted by yourinternetmobsux@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 81 comments
Modemus@reddit
The core concept of a 15 minute city is an incredibly great idea, would help solve a lot of issues, etc etc, it's absolutely true.
Problem is, I have no doubt that, given the chance, the rich parasites of our world would absolutely try to commandeer it for their own agenda of ushering modern technocratic fuedelism with them as our lords.
LandRecent9365@reddit
That's why you abolish private property.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Thats a horrible idea. Communism is the worst form of low class life. Its basically a suicidal system.
Problem is that people have given over or government bodies to predatory nonstate actor who are destroying it on purpose. We need to become political and actually regain our government system.
We absolutely do not want to scrap the system for communism, that is actual suicide. Communism will never work, no matter who is in control
breaducate@reddit
"Communism is a suicidal system", they said as capitalism ended organised life on earth.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
....you think to save not just or society, but all of humanity, we need communism? Because its capitalism and not human greed without constraint that is over poluting the planet.
I'll let George carlins comment address your view, " The planet isn't going anywhere. WE are! We're going away... The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does."
breaducate@reddit
So now you've made the "not real capitalism" argument explicit while straw-manning another interlocutor as if they said "not real communism".
Is your self awareness that poor or are you just dishonest?
EmotionOdd7942@reddit
Yes
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Well I'm going to North Korea where life is best
justinchina@reddit
My brother in Christ. No need to talk about suicide systems…we are dead already, we just don’t know it yet.
LandRecent9365@reddit
Capitalist "High Class": A few people own 500-foot yachts while 30% of the population is one missed paycheck away from being unhoused.
Communist "Social Standard": Everyone has a guaranteed apartment, a guaranteed job, guaranteed healthcare, and guaranteed education.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
So people are inherently corrupt, and in each communism society all the wealth went to them, so no we aren't all given an equal share, we are all given less then what we get now equally.
The problem with our system like I said is we need to regain our legal system. We need the law to protect us from the rich, and limit their ability to consolidate everything. Our system is the best system humans have created so far its just that we have given up full control of the government.
Again, communism will strip everyone of everything and it will still fail. No communism country has ever made it work, and if you think china is communist you are a fool, the elite just entered in airforce one and even tho the media is not reporting the deals, then western corporations are goin to enter, because Chinas growth and power came from it opening its markets and engaging in capitalism
LandRecent9365@reddit
Communism is very terrifying to the wealthy parasite class indeed.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Its dangerous to all classes...the system always results in catastrophic failure
LandRecent9365@reddit
You keep describing capitalism
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
We don't live in capitalism if you've noticed. Companies don't get subsidized by tax dollars in capitalism, that's socialism. What system would you say makes profit private and loses public? In capitalism, if your product fails you go broke
EmotionOdd7942@reddit
"Communism is the worst form of low class life."
The USSR took a country of illiterate peasants, industrialized it in a decade, defeated the Nazis, put the first satellite and human in space, and guaranteed free housing, healthcare, and education for 300 million people. Cuba, a tiny blockaded island, has a higher life expectancy than the US and produces more doctors per capita than any country on Earth. If that's "the worst form of low class life," I'd love to see what you call the tent cities of Los Angeles.
"No communist country has ever made it work."
China lifted 800 million people out of poverty in 40 years, the largest and fastest reduction of poverty in human history. Vietnam went from a war-devastated peasant society to a middle-income manufacturing powerhouse while maintaining public ownership of land and state control of the financial system. Cuba survived a 60-year blockade from the most powerful empire in human history and still outperforms its capitalist neighbors in health and education metrics. These are facts, not opinions.
"If you think China is communist you are a fool."
China is a socialist market economy with public ownership of the commanding heights. The CPC controls the banks, the land, and the strategic industries. Foreign capital operates under strict conditions and can be expelled at will. The fact that Western corporations do business in China does not make China capitalist any more than a lion eating a gazelle makes the lion a herbivore. China uses capital as a tool. That's not capitalism. That's statecraft.
"Companies don't get subsidized by tax dollars in capitalism."
Lockheed Martin. Boeing. The entire fossil fuel industry. The auto bailout of 2008. The airline bailout of 2020. The US government subsidizes corporations to the tune of hundreds of billions annually. What you're describing isn't capitalism in theory; it's capitalism in practice. The privatization of profit and socialization of risk is the defining feature of actually existing capitalism.
"Did the USSR have oligarchs who profited from the gulag?"
No. The gulag was a brutal system of forced labor camps, many of which produced resources like timber and minerals. But the camp commandants didn't become billionaires. They were state employees who lived in state housing and drove state cars. The Soviet Union had bureaucratic privilege, not private accumulation. The oligarchs emerged after 1991, when the Soviet state was dismantled and its assets were looted by the very people who now own your government. The oligarchs you're vaguely referencing are a product of the capitalist restoration you're arguing for.
"You've been brainwashed."
You just claimed that the USSR had oligarchs, that China isn't communist, that capitalism doesn't have subsidies, and that communism always fails while ignoring every counterexample. You then linked a conspiracy theory article about resource extraction and AI replacing labor. The only person here who's been fed a narrative and swallowed it whole is you. The difference is I can name the books I've read and the history I've studied. You can only name your fears.
darweth@reddit
Not really all or any of that, loser.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Wow, you had to attack me with insults. The future generations are so fucked
AZORxAHAI@reddit
This is always such a funny thing to read because it instantly conveys the message that the writer has no fucking clue what Communism even is on a conceptual level.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Wow. Wow, so is concept more relevant/important then history? When did an idea become greater then the repeated pain of its failure.
You think everyone else who did it did it wrong but this time, this time you will get it right...
americend@reddit
I can't believe we're still parroting BS like this in the big '26. Go to bed gramps.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Its your future....
americend@reddit
Which is exactly why we're deciding what to do with it.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
🤣
Current-Fix759@reddit
Nonsense gibberish, communism or barbarism
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
You want to go back to barbarian? Your a troll lol
northrupthebandgeek@reddit
“You will own nothing and be happy” really does take on a much different vibe when it's coming from a socialist v. a capitalist.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
Buddy, you will get ubi. They will make it socialist so don't you worry. Once your on uni, the system will own you and you won't have to worry about property
Coco_Cannibal@reddit
That's personal property, private property is theft.
breaducate@reddit
The stars will go dark before the we don't need to explain the absolute most basic points of what communism/socialism means in response to pull-string dolls in human form.
TheIrishWanderer@reddit
Good luck with that lmao
yummyneverstone@reddit
Okay? Evil people are going to try and do evil shit regardless of the physical formation societies take. It's demonstrably much easier to make people reliant on just-in-time logistics and car-dependent infrastructure if everyone's scattered off into their own disparate communities.
Relevant-Cake-2097@reddit
The wild thing about evil people, is that they think they are doing the right thing...one of the largest faults in humans, its hubris
yummyneverstone@reddit
I feel like hubris must be one of the easier things to overcome though, and that's why it seems like every tech billionaire trying to rule the world is an absolute moron. The nature of our system incentivizes dumbasses who never got past their middle school "the world would be a better place if I just had all the power and could survive without anyone else" phase to seek positions of authority.
travtastic3@reddit
This is literally happening right now as you typed that.
breaducate@reddit
That stunlocked me for a few minutes.
A flock of what? Palantir? Oh so this is some kind of LOTR metaphor?
Practically every government in the west suddenly and simultaneously pushing to end the relatively free internet and using the same rhetorical cloak to manufacture consent for it? That writing's a bit over the top, tone it down for the next draft.
Anyway I'd be concerned tech bros would use 15 minute cities to smuggle in technofeudalism. Somehow.
Kootenay4@reddit
And somehow living in car-dependent suburban sprawl protects us from that? Where we’re entirely dependent on oil from mega corporations in order to access food, employment and healthcare? At least in a walkable town you can still walk places even if the shit hits the fan, whereas, in the suburbs you are literally trapped with no way to get anywhere.
Walkable doesn’t have to mean Tokyo dense. Some of the most walkable places I’ve ever lived have been small rural towns with a few thousand people. Ironically said towns tend to be filled with the exact sort of people who buy into 15 minite city conspiracy theories while not realizing the fact they literally live in one.
Suitable_Matter@reddit
There was a French doctor in the 19th century who discovered a permanent cure for this
yourinternetmobsux@reddit (OP)
I really think we are giving them too much credit to think they can pull it off, long term. Or at least that’s my hope and what I’m gonna to focus my energy on.
Modemus@reddit
Whether or not they could actually pull it off, oh yeah you're absolutely right that's a completely different question. I just have no doubt they will try, and that's why I'm hesitant about it.
It's the same reason why I'm anti AI, I'm pretty sure that it could be this incredible amazing tool for humanity, I just do not support how our current corporations are trying to apply it, and won't until it stops, ie is actually used to improve our lives instead of replacing the human.
readerjoe@reddit
Amazed by the amount of bs. 15 minute city planning is nothing more than making services like schools, hospitals, market places available near residential areas to avoid hour long trips for basic needs. Being against such a concept is conspiraonoic and dumb. Many here prefer collapse than actually doing any effort to better things. Now drown me in downvotes. Who cares?
yourinternetmobsux@reddit (OP)
Agree about how pervasive in here the doomers, who are all out of ideas having tried nothing. I was trying to put this in r/collapsesupport but they don’t let you cross post.
supersunnyout@reddit
Yeah but, I really would love to extract every drop of hope that might exist in the idea, But the idea is so stupid, like do you really have all the arable land and water required within your 15 minute radius? Or are all the big nasty things still smoking away out in the periphery in 16 minute land. They would have to be.
Halfjack12@reddit
I live in a 15 minute city. It's great. The folks who shit on the idea have worms in their brains
DiscoskillzMX@reddit
I had never heard this term. Do you mind if I ask what city you live in? Genuinely curious. Thanks
Halfjack12@reddit
I live in montreal! Not every neighbourhood could be described as a 15 minute city, but many of them are including mine.
After_Resource5224@reddit
You want Elon Musk and Peter Theil in charge of the town you live in?
I'm in Austin. Musk is dumping crap into our water and just paying the fine.
marbotty@reddit
I don’t know where you live, but imagine if a grocery store, barber shop, cafe, hospital and hardware store opened up within walking distance to your home.
This is only bad for oil/gas and car companies
After_Resource5224@reddit
I did not expect collapse people to be thise dense.
Currecy they can turn off. Social credit scores like china. Access that is determine by a corporate AI.
did this sub go to popular or something?
marbotty@reddit
None of what you just wrote has anything to do with the concept of 15 minute cities.
You’re just slinging conspiracy theories
Jaredlong@reddit
Density = authoritarianism? What?
After_Resource5224@reddit
If you're asking that question you haven't been paying attention.
pinkpanthercub@reddit
Well if they are anything like how its depicted in the Novel ''The Warehouse'' then it would be total hell. I've not been able to look at a burger the same way since reading it!
Erick_L@reddit
Most travel is commuting and people have been commuting 30 minute one-way since the neolithic. It's called the Marchetti constant.
We're more likely to have 15m cities because nobody can afford to go anywhere.
Fearless-Try-261@reddit
There are plenty of 15 minute (drive) cities (towns) scattered throughout the USA. Not enough absolutely, but I'm not aware of any backlash against the idea. Am I missing something?
luminousrose9@reddit
I think the point is walk or bike 15 minutes
breaducate@reddit
The American brain cannot comprehend non-motorised locomotion.
TheAmazingThundaCunt@reddit
In the spirit of a post linked from conspiracy, I think the elites have figured out that people naturally distrust any idea they try to push, so occasionally they push really good ideas so people will mistrust them.
DeltaForceFish@reddit
Have you ever watched deep space 9? The episode where they go back in time and there is a section of city where the homeless are effectively prisoners. Trapped in a neighbourhood of hell. If you are not part of the 1% do not for a second think that your 15 minute section will have anything of quality. The utopia in your head will only occur for the rich. If you currently have a job, you are not part of that group, sorry. The working class will have a 15 minute city that resembles cuba
Imaginary_Cow_6379@reddit
Yeah I don’t think you understood that episode or anything in the entire series either. 😆
Ferovore@reddit
What? Isn’t a 15 minute city just a place where you can access all your needs within 15 min by foot or bike? I live in that and it’s not a dystopia hahaha
yourinternetmobsux@reddit (OP)
I see a more hopeful path. I don’t see the steps to get there as easy or bloodless, but I see it as possible.
___someoneelse@reddit
People are just hopelessly conditioned by extractive capitalism to dislike anything that would actually have a positive impact on their lives.
siboq@reddit
“You have to understand. Most people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured and so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.”
Morpheus, The Matrix
jonnyinternet@reddit
This just reminded me, my bro in law was convinced everyone would be forced into cities before the end of Biden's presidency
I should follow up with him what happened to that
bbccaadd@reddit
A world where clothes and food don't arrive from afar, but solar panels do? If so, that's a pathological lack of imagination. If not, are you going to do the maintenance and provide the replacement parts?
merRedditor@reddit
Get rid of surveillance and rent-seeking behavior, and you just have a small town, or even a commune.
I think that the part that people fear is that it is being proposed by a broken system. It feels like a trick. Like it will end up being worse than apartments or housemates, working to rent a room in a house with ten other people, or forced into an apartment with lousy construction but still charged rent.
Small towns with everything bikeable, small individual residences, a local hospital, a local grocery, a hardware store, and a few extras would be very popular. The less profit they generated for investors of any kind, or the more they banned investment beyond small business, the more popular they would be.
Few_Fish8771@reddit
Whenever someone anyone trys and take options away from you theres a good chance they are doing so to be able to hurt you so you cannot fight back. Freedom is power, a stationary person is a stationary prey for those with power and privilege.
Jaredlong@reddit
Exactly why suburbs need to be banned. So that people are free to meet their basic needs without being required to own a car. Americans living outside of cities don't even have a choice anymore about owning a car and are trapped in their homes until they're able to get one.
larevolutionaire@reddit
Italy is full of 15 minute cities and had been for centuries.
NoFood2149@reddit
exactly why we want 15 minute cities. there are NO options within 15 minutes for most people, and as you say, taking away options is a way to take power
lowrads@reddit
I find it annoying that a berth on a ro-ro ship costs less than a plane ticket these days, though maybe more of those are including meals.
Jaredlong@reddit
What is a ro-ro ship?
lowrads@reddit
Roll-on/roll-off. It's a type of ship that carries a combination of non-containerizezd cargo, vehicles, and passengers. If a crane is used, it's a lo-lo ship. You mostly encounter them as ferries, but longer distance versions used to be common, though the pandemic finished off most of the holdovers.
CoolAndCringe@reddit
Big oil, fast food companies… most of corporate America hate it
sadcow49@reddit
I'm not entirely against the concept - it has some positives. But there's a lot of limitations. The 15 minute concept only allows people to do what everyone else around them is doing. The efficiency of the average is encouraged. Anything else is not. Even if getting to things farther away is "allowed", everything will be set up to discourage it. One of my family members does rowing. The lake where the rowing team meets is 30-40 minutes away. So is that just not a possible thing? What if I want to go shop/eat in the chinatown area? Do I expect everyone to have chinatown area within 15 minutes? Also anyone who thinks you are going to feed and clothe a city from sharing "abundance" in their own backyards and their neighbor's yards is seriously on something. Especially because the advocates for 15 minute cities are the same people with a hate-on for SFHs with yards. And food is fucking hard to grow or raise consistently/reliably.
travtastic3@reddit
I have good news, absolutely none of that is what 15 minute cities are about, so you don't have anything to worry about.
NyriasNeo@reddit
"Why are we so afraid of/against the 15 minute city? It means that most of what you do and consume is available and originates within 15 minute of where you live."
Who is against 15 min city? You did not say "15 min of walk". Plenty of suburbs are 15 min city ... everything you do and consume is available within 15 min drive.
And if you ask "Why are we so against the 15 minute WALKING city?", the answer is simple. Humans are tribal and we do not like to be in a densely populated place with a lot of strangers. We like a low density place where you know all your neighbors, and you have video cameras watching all the strangers.
That is why most people in the US live in suburbs. (BTW, that does not include rural areas which is even less dense.)
And with drones and WFH, everything will be 15 min soon (ok, may be 30 min). Amazon is already offering 30 min delivery in some areas already.
While I know a lot of people here do not like where this is going, I doubt the tide will change. Ranting here is not going to change the future. Heck, just look at the growth of Amazon despite so much opposition here.
StatementBot@reddit
This post links to another subreddit. Users who are not already subscribed to that subreddit should not participate with comments and up/downvotes, or otherwise harass or interfere with their discussions (brigading)
The following submission statement was provided by /u/yourinternetmobsux:
SS: With the energy, economic and climate crisises breathing down our necks, I think a version of the 15 minute city could be our saving grace. I also believe we are still able to imagine ourselves in a better future that the one the technfascists are building for us. This post is my hopeful vision.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1tebh7z/why_are_we_so_afraid_ofagainst_the_15_minute_city/om18lp9/
Prestigious_Wrap_932@reddit
Because the 15-minute city is being designed specifically for population control, not individual liberty and convenience.
The 15-minute city is for the worker drones while the elites flit around the globe on jets burning up insane quantities of nonrenewable resources.
yourinternetmobsux@reddit (OP)
SS: With the energy, economic and climate crisises breathing down our necks, I think a version of the 15 minute city could be our saving grace. I also believe we are still able to imagine ourselves in a better future that the one the technfascists are building for us. This post is my hopeful vision.