Student pilot off altitude, wrong direction, head on. Caught it on GoPro
Posted by Squawk_0877@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 239 comments
Before training I figured aviation was so regulated that once you were inside a towered zone, ATC had the picture, transponders did their thing, and everybody could see everybody, you basically just had to fly the airplane and not stare at the ground, not long ago that idea took a real beating.
Flying with a buddy in his new Cirrus G7, he just took delivery and I was right seat with the GoPro running, we were going to do a little walkthrough on the airplane on the way back, we picked up the controller approaching the field, got our clearance into the zone, doing everything by the book.
Then the traffic system pipes up traffic 12 oclock, 2 miles, same altitude, couple seconds later, traffic 12 oclock, 1 mile. I look up out the windscreen and theres a plane coming dead at us, same altitude, pointed right at us, i yelled and pointed, my buddy banked left hard and the other airplane went by what felt like a wingspan off our right side. GoPro was rolling the whole time so I caught it, zoomed in a bit on the clip so you can actually see how close.
We sat there in silence for a few seconds, then we called up the controller, basically what the hell was that, controller went and talked to the other airplane, turned out to be a student pilot, never saw us, was off her assigned altitude, and heading the wrong direction
I dont know exactly what the takeaway is supposed to be here, but mine is this., even when you are talking to a controller, even with transponders all around, even inside a towered zone, see and avoid is still the thing keeping you alive, did not expect this kind of thing could just happen with the system working the way its supposed to, apparently it can.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Excuse me, your buddy banked LEFT hard? With a head on? Oops.
kxxstarr@reddit
My first thought too. Surprised no one else mentioning this.
uriahanium@reddit
Cirrus driver, what did you expect?
TwoEightRight@reddit
Chute?
Queasy_Platypus6333@reddit
When in doubt, the chute comes out!
Distinct_Pressure832@reddit
Hate to burst your bubble but VFR traffic is not provided separation by ATC in most classes of airspace. If you want to rely on a controller to provide you separation you need to be IFR.
Due-Letterhead6372@reddit
Even when you're IFR you're still responsible for your own traffic avoidance while VFR
Distinct_Pressure832@reddit
True enough in cruise but I believe they do provide separation in Class B and C control zones for IFR aircraft from VFR. Maybe I’m wrong? The OP’s event was in a control zone though they don’t say which class.
randombrain@reddit
You are correct, and also in TRSA airspace.
But even though ATC is responsible for separation in those control zones, the pilots are also always responsible for seeing and avoiding. Swiss cheese.
psychothymia@reddit
Will vector for cheese?
Carlito_2112@reddit
Instructions unclear, I ate the cheese and now have gas (lactose intolerant).
LockPickingPilot@reddit
I ❤️ panic vectors
Bunslow@reddit
Most airspace isnt B ir C.
Distinct_Pressure832@reddit
You’re misreading my comment, I said they won’t separate between VFRs in most airspace. I think they only do that in Class B? IFR gives you separation from VFR in both B and C.
KosmolineLicker@reddit
It's not necessarily zones, everyone is required to be transponding so atc can see everyone. There's no surprises like this in controlled airspace.
SuperSmash01@reddit
In the USA, transponder is not required in much of Class E and Class D airspace, both are controlled airspaces. In class D, yes at least you are speaking with ATC, but they are not required to provide traffic separation for VFR aircraft (though they generally do to the best of their ability).
KosmolineLicker@reddit
I was responding to class B and C from OP. I know E and D don't require a transponder.
CluelessPilot1971@reddit
Huh? Class D & E are both controlled airspace. Transponder not required there. Even if ATC sees everyone (and many Class Ds don't have radars), that doesn't mean they provide separation or prevent surprises.
KosmolineLicker@reddit
Those weren't stated by op, I was only referring to being within class B and C airspace.
KosmolineLicker@reddit
This was in response to B and C...
Substantial-End-7698@reddit
Yeah but it’s important to know where separation is mandatory for ATC, vs on demand.
Gourmandine_Danselun@reddit
That's correct. I would add that most CTRs (the airspace around the airport managed by TWR) are almost always class D airspace in Europe, not sure about the USA. In class D airspace VFR are still in controlled airspace and so traffic avoidance is the controller's responsibility but VFRs are not seperated from each other. Instead they are given mandatory (as in the controller has to give them) traffic information. This is different from traffic information given when possible while flying in uncontrolled airspace by flight following.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
In those zones ATC provides separation advisories and commands, but it can’t steer the aircraft. ATC doesn’t provide actual separation any more than your GPS provides steering.
ImaTr1plet@reddit
I’ve had way more closer calls with traffic while being IFR.
The problem is while IFR, you see the traffic 5 minutes ahead of time, wait for a call from ATC, but sometimes never get it and have to deviate on your own.
Or ATC will straight up vector you into other traffic.
I know they’re working hard so I get it, it happens. It does get to a point though.
Substantial-End-7698@reddit
That’s mainly in class E and G airspace. But people bust airspace in B and Cs all the time, so not a bad idea to have a lookout there too.
GlennCurtis@reddit
Looks like traffic was avoided, gotta love all the bob hoover’s in the comments
22Planeguy@reddit
This isn't true unless specifically given a "maintain visual separation" or similar instruction by ATC.
Nulet@reddit
Now I'm just a stupid student pilot, but shouldn't these two planes keep 500ft separation from their relative east/west direction of travel? The eastbound plane flying at 3500' and the westbound plane flying at 3000' etc?
Even without ATC separation they shouldn't be at the same altitude when coming head on with one another, right?
Distinct_Pressure832@reddit
Those rules only apply over 3000’ AGL. Also consider that in a control zone most planes are either in the process of descending to pattern altitude/landing or on climb out having just taken off. You should never assume someone is going to be flying a standardized altitude inside a control zone honestly.
noideawhatsupp@reddit
Banked hard to the left for head on traffic… doing everything by the book…
maethor1337@reddit
Apologies for the ST flair and question but they won’t even give you that if you’re IFR, right? As an IFR pilot you can’t throw your foggles on unless a safety pilot is seeing and avoiding, because there’s no radar separation from VFR traffic in VMC even under IFR. You might (will?) get traffic advisories like on flight following but if you’re in VMC they won’t turn you to dodge a non-talking C172-sized primary radar target, right?
randombrain@reddit
In most airspace (by volume) this is correct, at least it has historically been correct.
ALL aircraft operating in VMC, in any kind of airspace, are required to see-and-avoid, no matter if they're VFR or IFR. That's why you need a safety pilot if you're going to use foggles.
The FAA is rolling out a rule change this October that will require ATC to provide defined numeric separation between a VFR and an IFR in Class D and Class E airspace... but only if the VFR is receiving radar services. If they're just flying around 1200 not talking to anybody, no separation is provided.
anthonyd5189@reddit
That’s gonna make fly ins like Oshkosh and the like near impossible if we’re having to separate VFRs that are frying flight following.
randombrain@reddit
We won't have to separate between VFRs. Only a VFR and an IFR, and only if the VFR is receiving radar services. Not that I'd put it past some ATMs to go waaay farther than the notice requires.
Flight following is already impossible within like 100 miles of Oshkosh, right? And Fisk Approach is non-radar. So it shouldn't have too much of an impact on that specifically.
But I do wonder if it will lead to more denials of flight following generally.
anthonyd5189@reddit
We provide flight following all the way to Fisk.
randombrain@reddit
Ah, my bad then. I had Heard- services were terminated some distance before that. Good to know!
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
I like the frying.... its a typo for sure, but an accurate one.
TaxiLightTony@reddit
Wrong. If you ask for flight following I WILL separate you even from other VFR’s.
randombrain@reddit
Oh you will, huh? What numeric separation standard from the .65 are you applying in Echo airspace?
Honest-to-god "separation" is not possible in regular Class E airspace (TRSAs and Class C outer areas being the exception). At least it hasn't been. This will change in October but only for VFR-IFR separation; it will still be impossible to provide "separation" between two VFRs.
You can vector to provide X number of miles laterally, or X thousand feet vertically, but that isn't "separation" as defined by the book.
Dinglebobus@reddit
I was gonna say, I’m not reading all that for VFR
Maldivesblue@reddit
This.
vishnoo@reddit
isn't VFR traffic at even thousand plus 500 going west?
LTZheavy@reddit
Yes, only if over 3000 ft though....
oranges1cle@reddit
You aren't wrong but no controller is going to let two airplanes touch just because they legally don't have to say anything, unless they don't have radar. It might be a regional thing but when I was still flying VFR I always received point outs, every time.
randombrain@reddit
Yes, safety alerts are a first-priority duty. And traffic advisories (which is the level before a safety alert) are mandatory in several situations.
MrPetter@reddit
And most controllers will remind you of that, too.
dumbassretail@reddit
It’s true. In most airspace classes the standard is pass traffic only, workload permitting.
ATC often goes beyond that, assigning altitudes to ensure separation, but it’s not required.
Ancient_Mai@reddit
Cirrus pilot type of post. Next up at five, is water still wet?
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Details left out is this was a 30mi straight in final with traffic in the pattern.
J50GT@reddit
And landing on the opposite of the active runway
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
In their defense, that could be a Cirrus or a cub.
nhorvath@reddit
a cub could land perpendicular on the active
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Oh I know. My airport is littered with them. 2 Cirrus and they are absolutely keeping that stereotype alive
kscessnadriver@reddit
And radio calls that if they happen, are totally useless to any VFR only pilot
ghjm@reddit
I liked the part where even with two pilots, nobody looked out of the window until after two traffic callouts from the avionics.
Middle-Nerve1732@reddit
G1000: There's a plane coming towards you
Cirrus pilot: Yo this plane is so sick!
G1000: There's a plane coming towards you
Cirrus pilot: I'm gonna get so many view on youtube with my sick new plane!
G1000: ....
Cirrus pilot: HOLY SHIT THERE'S A PLANE COMING TOWARDS ME
Rubes2525@reddit
I also like the inclusion of not understanding the right of way rules with conflicting traffic. When a plane is headed directly towards you, you're supposed to turn right, not left. Good thing the other plane was even more oblivious and never turned.
burlingtonhopper@reddit
Now that you mention it… yikes 😳
DuelingPushkin@reddit
And that they saw the traffic on ADSB and chose to just chug along instead of seeing and avoiding until they were close enough they felt the need to make a post about it.
Rubes2525@reddit
I also like the inclusion of not understanding the right of way rules with conflicting traffic. When a plane is headed directly towards you, you're supposed to turn right, not left.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
That's funny. A few months back I had a Cirrus turning into me when I was in downwind and he turned to downwind right after his takeoff, effectively cutting me off in the circuit.
Lanky_Beyond725@reddit
He's not a pilot. He said so. Just a passenger
memostothefuture@reddit
Water is not wet.
TheOriginalJBones@reddit
They should have pulled the ‘chute.
nhorvath@reddit
the takeaway here is your buddy needs retraining. collision avoidance should be a right turn. and he probably should have acted sooner.
space_rhinos@reddit
This is scary, some people don’t fly in particularly busy areas like others, so for some people this could be considered pretty close, if you train somewhere with lots of traffic it’s like any other day.
If you want to get better at dealing with traffic do things like formation flying, make more calls, listen to the area frequency more carefully and remember you’re in a big sky in a small plane. Traffic/mid air collisions are always a real threat and I sense a couple of people in the comments are trying to be a bit ‘cool’ about it. I think personally ADSB should become mandatory in more regions of the US and that more strictness should be applied to routes and altitudes.
Just be mindful of people’s differences in experience y’all and remember getting home safe is the top priority of any flight.
KCPilot17@reddit
What type of airspace were you in? This looks to be below 3k AGL.
lonememe@reddit
I like where you're heading with this. I was surprised to learn that 91.15 VFR alt's aren't really in effect until over 3,000 AGL. Here in CO, that's kind of a big deal since then you're dealing with terrain avoidance, service ceilings, DA, etc.
That doesn't look to be over 3k AGL to me either, in which case, eyes open at all times. Sure, we can do our best to stay on those recommended alts for the direction we're heading but...also...we don't have to.
Swiper_The_Sniper@reddit
For us in NZ, VFR cruising altitudes aren't required upto 3000ft AMSL (upto 1000ft AGL in mountainous areas). Thankfully its never been a huge problem in uncontrolled airspace for me.
Squawk_0877@reddit (OP)
Yeah around 1500 AGL, we were inbound stepping down to pattern altitude when the traffic system went off
LaddieNowAddie@reddit
That's the beauty and the beast of flying in the USA. You can fly across the country and for the most part, not talk to a single person. It doesn't matter if you have a fancy cirrus or a light sport, all the same. Your pilot buddy should know this. I've had a jet land against the pattern where 3 or 4 of us were flying. Not one call from them. I had a TBM cut me off so close I read the guys cap. Never saw me, never made a call.
pleaseavoidcaps@reddit
Was it one of those "Make Aircraft Go Around" caps?
LaddieNowAddie@reddit
Yes, but when they first came out lol.
KCPilot17@reddit
Give some more context here man. What airspace type, what were your instructions and what were theirs?
But yes, still see and avoid.
CanyonEJ@reddit
Exactly, Need way more context. How far out of the airport were you? If it was a Delta, it could be non-radar in the first place.
RaiseTheDed@reddit
Below 3000 feet AGL there is no "correct altitudes."
You are still VFR, it's still your responsibility to see and avoid.
Not to mention, many class D airports don't have radar.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
By their story, it sounds like they were in controlled airspace and the other pilot had an assigned altitude.
KCPilot17@reddit
Meh. Maybe. Hence the question.
Throwawayyacc22@reddit
I’m not OP and don’t know, but I’d like to guess, Delta or Charlie
phatRV@reddit
VFR altitude is separate by at least 1000'. But at this low altitude, I wonder somebody missed an instruction. Plus, it's all visual at this low altitude since VFR cruising altitude doesn't matter much.
Waterwoogem@reddit
Class C or D based on ATC communication and altitude.
Computerized-Cash@reddit
Embarrassing post
Disastrous-Form-8134@reddit
Welcome to VFR flying. If anything, you (certainly the PIC and preferably you as well) should have your eyes outside and bank right next time. As a glider pilot, I would say you guys are spoiled by your GPS screens, magenta lines and ADSB, and have started to loose touch with reality...
AtiumMist@reddit
If it was a head on, why did yall roll to the left instead of the right
Greenberryvery@reddit
This is very common separation between aircraft at unpowered airports.
baritone_mike@reddit
Other than a carrier what is considered a powered airport?
N546RV@reddit
Have you seen any of the Avengers movies?
Tiny-Ad-830@reddit
Approaching at 1 o’clock is better than the first call. Just glad you missed each other. It would be a shame to have missed up a brand new Cirrus.
barcode-username@reddit
Am I too used to Florida VFR flying in my CFI days? Or does this not look very close to anyone else?
Maitreya83@reddit
As a student myself, i have 2 questions:
Shouldnt you have diverted to the right ifnit was "head on"?
If adsb alerted you to this, werent you looking outside under "Vfr"?
_Sixteen@reddit
The second point I don't blame them. Sometimes it's just hard to see.
The first point, yeah. They need some primary training. The right of way should be drilled in even before solo.
Slightly_Moist_Toast@reddit
First off, not to rain on your parade but I’m not sure if you’re aware odd/even VFR altitudes don’t start until 3,000 AGL. I mention this because from your video you appear to be much lower than that.
if that is the case then all aircraft have the same rights to the same altitudes regardless of direction, even if your talking to ATC depending on airspace the other aircraft may not and will not be required to legally. The key here anytime you’re low and especially when heading towards an airfield SEE AND AVOID.
While this does look like a much too close for comfort I don’t know I’d say that passed within a single wingspan like you said. Either way use it as a learning moment that unless your hard IMC, EYES OUTSIDE always.
runnymountain@reddit
Course of action: file a report. A NASA report. Could also try to get the tail number and report that student with ATC but that’d fuck them up.
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
First time?
weech@reddit
Seriously wtf is this post?
Oh another plane passes uncomfortably by you? Cool story bro.
3PartsRum_1PartAir@reddit
Only complaint I have when it came to a close call for me was ATC told me I was incorrect for flying SE bound at 7500 Ft. a cirrus going NW bound was at 7500 with 300 ft lateral separation after I evaded them. ATC told me that their LOA with ZJX and ZMA have IFR AND VFR going northbound wrong altitude. I told them for IFR fine but for VFR flight following you’re going to get someone killed.
But this post is stupid
warwolf09@reddit
GA is getting filled with “Karen Pilots” that think the airspace belongs to them…. There was another post last week about this guy complaining another aircraft didn’t make radio calls in an uncontrolled airport lol
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
yeah try 'close enough to count rivets' and I might notice
Icy-Bar-9712@reddit
I got cut off in the pattern once I had to make evasive maneuvers, made the call of "too close for guns, switching to fists"
bigred1717@reddit
No, I’ve been nervous lots of times.
Mrs_Fagina@reddit
It’s a big building with patients, but that’s not important right now
Severe_Technology_26@reddit
What’s your vector Victor?
BoiledBananaPeel@reddit
Student pilot needs to be sent to solitary, NOW!
burlingtonhopper@reddit
No, silly. Sally Sue Pepperidge and I went all the way in 11th grade.
Wait. What are we talking about again?
NYPuppers@reddit
ADSB out and in needs to be mandatory, nationwide. This is my biggest issue flying around NY.
_Sixteen@reddit
No. We don't need to make GA even less affordable
fluffbuzz@reddit
Yep. On one flight ATC cleared me to pass midfield at the same time another plane was doing a go around. Immediately applied go around power too to get above the other plane. Eyes outside scanning always
redditburner_5000@reddit
Mid-airs are rare and I bet at least half happen in controlled airspace. Eyes out the window when you're near other planes is the solution, not more surveillance equipment.
NYPuppers@reddit
Stats can be misleading. I fly in very busy airspace around EWR and have had several close calls in the past few years, both VFR and IFR.
Eyes outside the plane makes very little sense where I live. You can know exactly where a plane is supposed to be and never make visual contact with it against the number of other lights in the tri state area. I think the entire concept is a relic that baby boomers are holding onto out of fear.
redditburner_5000@reddit
That's my point. Traffic advisories don't help you get eyes on traffic. They just prompt you to look outside in a general direction, which is where your eyes should be anyway if there's any visibility at all.
NYPuppers@reddit
Three weeks ago I got traffic advisories while IFR. 2 miles out and ascending from a busy cluster of lights below. Approach alerts me, I say negative on the visual and tower moves on. 1 mile out. Still nothing visual. According to the ADSB we are on a direct collision. I'm looking like crazy for it. So is my wife. We make the decision to immediately climb and alert approach as such. It passes right in front us climbing through our old altitude... very good chance that would have been a collision or within 100 feet of such. No amount of "looking outside" was going to spot that traffic. It's just an absurd standard in NY, especially against ascending traffic on a dense city below and around.
Visual separation. Does. Not. Work.
Ancient_Mai@reddit
Agreed. Having an iPad strapped to your leg and a stratus is a great thing but it can easily lead to fixation. Active effort is required to maintain a visual scan.
CaptMcMooney@reddit
also sucks, planes are frickin hard to see, esp coming right at you.
CarminSanDiego@reddit
Turn in fights on
Castun@reddit
"Too close for guns, switching to melee"
Hodgetwins32@reddit
Another Cirrus pilot thinking he owns the sky lmao parachute ain’t saving you from slimming into students
quietflyr@reddit
... It actually might save you after slamming into students...
Galf2@reddit
That's pretty much a dogfight merge, Jesus
thegolfpilot@reddit
Cirrus pilots taking on aircraft head on for the footy
Lormar@reddit
Oh no! Anyway
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
These people are delusional 😂
runway31@reddit
Typical cirrus
runway31@reddit
This is pretty normal lol. It looks like you were below 3000 AGL so these altitudes don’t even apply, but also pilots might be turning or descending through altitudes making them not exactly precise. In vfr always keep your head outside
Diligent_Digiridoo@reddit
Yikes dude delete this lmfao
JijiSpitz@reddit
The GoPro footage and the narrative do not seem to match…
Live_Free_Or_Die_91@reddit
I work a busy class D. I'm not sure what you mean by towered zone - I assume a Delta or Charlie airspace in this case. Did ATC cap one of you to an altitude while in the airspace and it got too close for comfort, i.e. the controller was behind the curve fixing the situation? Unsure here, but what I will say is, it is always 100% see and avoid, but this would also 100% be a traffic alert on my part inside my airspace. The kicker here is that just because you are talking to ATC doesn't mean you are inside their airspace, and traffic calls outside my delta depend entirely on how busy I am. I'm wondering if this was one of those cases.
Worldx22@reddit
All that tech in a Cirrus and you still let him get that close? My eyes backed up by foreflight and my 6 year old copilot can do a better job spotting traffic early.
CharAznableLoNZ@reddit
There is an untowered field near me that has a lot of weekend flyers that near misses are a bit too commonplace. I had someone land on the runway while right after I did and was still on the runway at that location. I've been in pattern and had a plane fly right under me. If I could pause time I could have gotten out and walked on their wings while still touching the belly of my plane. This was at a towered airport.
OddCockpitSpacer@reddit
Ha! Fly around the DFW bravo some time. Like around Denton. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
CheesyWilderness@reddit
Cirrus guy posts wall of text and post vid of something that looks pretty normal to me. Gotta be the most Cirrus post going
Darkspiff73@reddit
Years ago when I still had aspirations to be a pilot I was a student learning how to navigate under the hood coming into a VOR. As I couldn’t see out the windows my instructor was supposed to be looking around. I don’t think he was doing a great job as he yelled out “holy shit!” And grabbed the controls and pulled up and to the right. As I looked out the windows, I saw another plane at the same altitude on the opposite heading fly right through where we just were. Never changed course or altitude.
Pretty much everyone in my flight school had some type of near miss at some point.
Torvaldicus_Unknown@reddit
Cirrus pilots… every time
gErMaNySuFfErS@reddit
OP are you sure you have your ppl? Your buddy “banked left” to avoid a head on? Come on man…
Curly1109@reddit
This is daily under London TMA lol. See and avoid
bikeahh@reddit
“Towered zone”? What’s that?
Were you in actual Class D airspace or just in zone area (zone) with a tower nearby?
Cant tell your altitude but looks like you were possibly below 1200’ which, outside a 700’ class E drop down would put you in class G airspace.
Lots of the other guys was so fucked up but no details or use of actual aviation terminology to say what was really happening here.
In the end, see and avoid rules any time you are not IMC.
IzoAzlion@reddit
Take the go pro off, pull the cirrus provided phallic seat extension out and move on with your life
burlingtonhopper@reddit
🥇lolololol
Reddibaut@reddit
This is why I used to always fly just a little bit off on my altitude in my vfr days, not much just 50-60 feet or so. Don’t tell on me 😀
Dinglebobus@reddit
So, your GPS said “traffic 12 o clock, 2 miles, same altitude” and you weren’t able to see them and chose to do nothing until they were head on with you in a VFR environment. Sounds like you all made a bad decision to do nothing. PIC responsibility needs to be taken more seriously.
No_Size9475@reddit
scary stuff, but you and I have a different view on what a "wing span" is.
Actual_Environment_7@reddit
Perhaps he a was talking about a wingspan of a B-36.
aftcg@reddit
Or Stratolaunch
21jeeper@reddit
91.113(e) no one is going to mention this?
Lanky_Beyond725@reddit
That's pretty far away. I've been way closer! My battles are always with crop dusters
hummus_is_yummus1@reddit
Ok now imagine it's a group of skydivers. Do not rely on ATC to spot and manage your traffic
flyboy7700@reddit
djscreeling@reddit
Why did you turn left?
I'm a skydiver and most of our rules at taken from GA. I thought the standard course of action in the case of a head on was to turn to the right by both pilots. If you were already positioned left then it wasn't head on? AFAIK the only two times you don't turn to the right in a head on incident is boats and trains.
Can a pilot correct my thinking here?
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
Come fly around SoCal :) one flight from San Diego to Long Beach, up to Burbank and loop back thru Riverside and Temecula will get you some great stories!
idkausernamerntbh@reddit
Correct me if I’m wrong, aren’t both aircraft supposed to turn to the right ?
persistsntfault@reddit
By the book, yes. However, part of right-of-way is knowing what to do if the other aircraft doesn’t notice you or follow the rules (i.e. you’re head on with a cirrus and the suddenly yank it to the left)
Perfect_Big_5907@reddit
based on what video shows AGL altitude looks low enough that even/odd is not a factor.
_Echo_9@reddit
Always turn right if you can
conaan@reddit
That's the strangest thing to take from the video
_Echo_9@reddit
They were on a head-on collision course, by regulation both aircraft should be initiating a right-hand turn
NuclearDC10@reddit
Can't really make a judgement without seeing the full picture. Regulation says both should turn right, but that may not always be the safest direction.
conaan@reddit
They saw and avoided, whether or not they went right does not matter. I would rather they make any turn whatsoever to increase separation than deliberate on what the regs say
KehreAzerith@reddit
Turn right into traffic?
pilotjlr@reddit
Assert your dominance
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
Banzai!
NuclearDC10@reddit
Especially when the thing you’re trying to avoid is on your right
d4rkha1f@reddit
Maybe they were on the right because the pilot turned left. We don't see what it looked like before the turn.
NuclearDC10@reddit
Should've just kept turning left until it became right
Squawk_0877@reddit (OP)
100% should be a right turn, i wasnt going to reach for the stick in the moment, wasnt my airplane to fly
NuclearDC10@reddit
Care to talk us through that right turn?
buzzly@reddit
that wasn’t a thing when I started, and seems it did its part. That link in the chain held.
R5Jockey@reddit
OP mad (and apparently unaware) that other people exist.
OPs buddy needs a refresher on VFR ops.
LowTimePilot@reddit
Also right of way rules. You're supposed to clear to the right. If the other pilot saw them and did what they were supposed to (try to pass to the right) things would have been even more hair raising for OP. 91.113(e).
HateJobLoveManU@reddit
Cirrus pilots are morons, they don’t bank right like you’re supposed to
1001WingedHussars@reddit
Am I understanding that tower called out oncoming traffic multiple times and neither you nor your friend apparently had the wherewithal to get out of the way in order to avoid it? If I hadn't been able to see the traffic after the first callout I would've changed altitude immediately to get out of the way. No one would've blamed you or asked you to call a number if it was to avoid traffic.
I get that people can be erratic flyers, and the number of times ive gotten into a surprise jousting tournament against my will isnt zero. But you cant assume that everyone knows the regs front to back with 1500 hours on the books. Pilots screw up all the time.
You're responsible to avoid VFR traffic. ATC provides traffic separation and can vector you out of people's way, but you still gotta maintain separation and follow rule one. This sounds like a learning experience for both of you to keep your heads on the swivel, especially in controlled airspace.
Please for the love of God, stop proving the circus pilot stereotype correct.
felixzer0@reddit
If the other aircraft was moving towards you, shouldn't you bank right, not left?
(Unless there is a US VFR flight rule that I am not aware of)
Strega007@reddit
"See and avoid" is the takeaway.
phatRV@reddit
Interesting a student pilot was flying a retractable Cessna.
Actual_Environment_7@reddit
Not unheard of, but also not typical either.
One-Sundae-2711@reddit
hes on a 200 mile final
hbk1966@reddit
If it's moving across the windshield you'll be fine.
CAVU1331@reddit
You’re the same guy that landed into a flock of birds?
ffisch@reddit
Yup, while lying to his instructors about permission to use a GoPro.
NuclearDC10@reddit
They were far away. Plenty of space.
DrS7ayer@reddit
Agree, this happens to me probably every 2-3 flights in my area. Gotta constantly scan. I would never assume that another VFR aircraft is going to be at a appropriate BFR altitude.
Guardian6676-6667@reddit
That is INSANELY close to not have been announced by tower with caution
SFDukie@reddit
Tower did- OP said they called traffic 12 o’clock 2 miles followed by 12 o’clock 1 mile.
PP4life@reddit
I think OP was saying that was the traffic system in the airplane that made those calls. Not ATC.
NuclearDC10@reddit
I'm reading that as the aircraft's traffic alerting rather than ATC. You always have to keep a good lookout anyway. Even if ATC are providing a service, the controller may be busy with other traffic so you always keep an outside scan going. In busy airspace this distance of separation is very normal even when uncontrolled.
Recent-Day3062@reddit
Well, I’d say more than a wingtip
AirSorvete@reddit
Absolutely incredible and not in the good way!
As others have said, it really is on the pilot to maintain separation in VFR though. This is more a pilot thing than a controller thing.
Hopefully this next person doesn't fly like a twat again anytime soon but they are a student so there is hope.
DatBeigeBoy@reddit
This is a certified Cirrus Pilot post lol
Sad_Lengthiness_6033@reddit
You said you got the traffic alert and then “looked up out the windscreen.” If you are VFR you should be scanning out the windscreen constantly. You made a mistake by not scanning outside more and glancing at the ABSB-in to see the developing conflict before it gave an audio warning. It’s a dangerous attitude to think you’re in the right here and ATC/the other pilot are wrong. You are VFR… see and avoid!
No-Brilliant9659@reddit
I’ve had this happen so many times and have never thought to make a post about it, probably because it’s just something that happens. Welcome to aviation? See and avoid.
haveanairforceday@reddit
The controller is not responsible for aircraft separation when you are flying VFR. For the most part only in actual IMC or class A, B or C airspace are they the ones preventing planes from hitting each other.
There are other aircraft out there with no radios or transponders and its still your job to not hit them (also theirs to not hit you)
Sad_Lengthiness_6033@reddit
You said you got the traffic alert and then “looked up out the windscreen.” If you are VFR you should be scanning out the windscreen constantly. You made a mistake by not scanning outside more and glancing at the ABSB-in to see the developing conflict before it gave an audio warning. It’s a dangerous attitude to think you’re in the right here and ATC/the other pilot are wrong. You are VFR… see and avoid!
Zen-Ism99@reddit
What country do you fly in?
ChrisbKreme062@reddit
You're at 1,500 feet, which means youre responsible for separation. Not to mention this isnt even a close call, what are you worried about?
Vindicated0721@reddit
lol. This sub is hilarious lately. Is there some sort of surge of new pilots going on or something?
Tisx@reddit
The lesson here is asking yourself what would of happened if you didn't have ADS-B saving your ass.
Every 5-10 seconds you or someone else needs to be looking around to look out for student pilots, Sunday flyers, or other assorted.
Weasel474@reddit
I still fly a decent amount of planes with no ADS-B due to their age, and have been uncomfortably close to GA coming into small Delta's across the US without picking up anything. Traffic awareness tools are a great resource and added measure of safety, but shouldn't be the only method used.
fillikirch@reddit
approaching traffic head on is notoriously dangerous and hard to spot as well. From the time your eye can physically register an oncoming plane to the impact can be mere seconds depending on the speed and size of both aircraft.
N546RV@reddit
Yeah I had a head-on close encounter with a C-130 once upon a time. Turns out that smoke trail the Herc leaves can come in handy, because that's what I spotted first. It took maybe 10-15 seconds for my brain to go through "is that a smudge on the windshield...no it's not...what is that...OH SHIT."
I was rolling into a hard turn by the time I got through OH SHIT and I swear I heard the Herc pass behind me.
So basically to reinforce your point: this was a not-exactly-small aircraft trailing a smoke cloud and even then I didn't spot it until it was pretty seriously danger close.
Squawk_0877@reddit (OP)
Yep that part stuck with me too
Frost_907@reddit
I think the lesson learned here is if you are below 1500 feet VFR and outside of towered airspace then ATC will not keep you separate from other traffic. The fact that the vid only starts right at the moment when you’re passing traffic and the tone of your post/comments suggests that you are just behaving like a typical Cirrus pilot and expecting everyone to accommodate to what you want during your flight.
This is GA, the student pilot was doing nothing wrong, good job practicing see-and-avoid. If you want to avoid this in the future then either fly higher or fly IFR.
Affectionate_Cronut@reddit
Student pilot in a Cessna RG?
Rictor_Scale@reddit
100 comments here and we still don't know what exact airspace this was in.
ciscovet@reddit
I wouldn't say that was head on.
Kind_Cat4295@reddit
Agreed. Last time this happened to me, I could see their eye color.
ffisch@reddit
Between this post and the one where he's bragging about lying to his flight instructors, this kid seems like an insufferable influencer wannabe.
randombrain@reddit
FYI, this is the ICAO-standard service level provided in each class of airspace:
As you can see, in Class D or Class E airspace we do not have any separation responsibility toward a VFR aircraft. Our main purpose is still to prevent a collision between aircraft, but there is no numeric separation.
TRSAs confuse this; TRSAs are like Class B, except that no separation is provided from non-participating VFR aircraft.
Also the FAA is planning on a rule change this October which would require VFRs to be separated from IFRs in Class E and D airspace, but only if the VFR is receiving radar service. Some Class D towers provide radar service but many don't.
SFDukie@reddit
I wonder if we’re going to get more “unable” as a response when PPs flying VFR call requesting flight following.
I rarely get a “too busy” response in NoCal, but in my limited experience Albuquerque center is always too busy for FF.
randombrain@reddit
That was my first thought as well when I saw the notice.
We'll see what happens.
Crateapa@reddit
I bet insurance for a student with retractable gear is eye-watering, even for aviation.
chuckop@reddit
Sorry this happened to you. I’m sure it was scary in the moment.
The separation was much greater than just “a wing span”.
In my 35+ years of GA flying, I’ve personally seen much closer encounters (including one with a skydiver!). I’m not saying it’s right or acceptable, but that it happens.
The Cirrus almost certainly has the ability to display ADSB-In traffic. Was it? Did the other plane have ADSB-Out?
You didn’t say where you were flying. Was ADSB-Out required there?
xxUbermensch777316@reddit
You had GP rolling and yet start the video after the hard left
I’m in tech sales and geeking out on aircraft stuff of late but you really left me wanting to see the whole video start to finish.
Jrnation8988@reddit
Typical entitled Cirrus pilot (or friend) attitude
graphical_molerat@reddit
Interesting that a student pilot who nearly clipped you would be soloing around in a retractable gear aircraft. At least in Europe, pretty much all basic training is done in fixed wheel SEL craft. Not for legal reasons, I guess you can do your PPL in a retract: but for cost reasons, most students don't go that route.
leftrightrudderstick@reddit
Ha. Hahaha. ATC hopefully has the picture of what the sequence to the runway looks like and should be adhering to some semblance of first come first serve. Hopefully. You're on your own for the rest bud
LaloMcNombres@reddit
The closest calls I’ve had are clear days around airports, usually student pilots departing the opposite of what a controller told them or picking the wrong runway and flying through the traffic pattern (both times Class D, HYI, and one time was my student). If you’re just flying around the area, VFR, it’s your responsibility to “see and avoid”. Keep your head on a swivel!
karantza@reddit
I've had near head on collisions in the pattern of a towered field. ATC knew what was going on, but that doesn't help if the pilot doesn't know their right from their left.
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
We had a run where CAP was the biggest issue with that.
They'd sputter on about having a specific air force restriction that made them a flying hazard i guess.
Of course they won't tell you what Dash 1 or AFM they're referring to either.
Sunsplitcloud@reddit
Highly doubt that's a 'student' pilot...in a Cessna RG... unlikely.
TheDuckFarm@reddit
Is that a glider? It kind of looks like it.
fillikirch@reddit
VFR never gets sequenced with other VFR traffic unless inside Class B. Maintaining separation is your and your buddies job.
randombrain@reddit
Sequencing is not the same thing as separation, but if you meant separation then you would be correct.
Except for TRSAs. TRSAs are like Bravo airspace, VFRs are separated from both IFRs and VFRs. But only if the VFR chooses to participate.
eitilt@reddit
I mean VFR is still VFR, I’ve had somebody fly directly through a SAR pattern I was flying, and they responded on no frequencies including guard.
Like you said, ultimately see and avoid.
Squawk_0877@reddit (OP)
SAR pattern is wild, guard not being monitored is the actual kicker, glad it didnt end up worse
RyzOnReddit@reddit
Monitoring guard isn’t always practical with the meowers, and some aircraft have one radio (or zero).
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
Thats an everyday occurrence in any busy area while VFR.
See and avoid worked. Not a big deal.
Hfyvr1@reddit
That fallacy of believing everyone is on the “same page” is exactly how you’ll get in trouble. Unless the airport has dedicated inbound and outbound VFR routes you pretty much have to assume you’re on your own once you leave the pattern.
Also, not saying this is the case here, but I’ve flown around Cirrus’s before at my local field and if anything they come barreling inbound way faster than the 90-100kt typical singles, often being told to slow down. Possibly that, coupled with the fact you two were checking out the “new plane” and it’s a recipe for less than 110% of the focus to be on flying the plane. If you need the the traffic system to call traffic flying head on, landing lights on, you’re doing it wrong and ‘should’ have seen each other miles out.
mrb13676@reddit
If you haven’t had this happen multiple times in busy airspace you aren’t doing flying right. There will always be people who can’t fly an altitude or obey airspace rules.
Thats why you need to keep good SA, and have your eyes on stalks.
d4rkha1f@reddit
They are too low to even have an altitude they are supposed to be flying
PlanetMcFly@reddit
It’s always a good idea to monitor traffic and keep your head on a swivel even in a delta. Keeping your traffic scope at 2 miles doesn’t give you a lot of time in a Cirrus, 6 miles is better.
My story is when I was inbound into my local delta. Tower told me to fly left base. A fast moving biplane had just departed and was heading towards my left base putting us in conflict. I ended up pointing toward midfield, tower wasn’t happy. Oh well.
doctorfortoys@reddit
I’m glad for everyone that you were alert!
hhjijnnm@reddit
Lol welcome to GA
SFDukie@reddit
When tower announce the traffic- 12 o’clock at 2 miles, then 1- you should have been foung sometihing
EliteEthos@reddit
🍿🍿🍿
KayaLyka@reddit
This would be a non event where I fly
KehreAzerith@reddit
You'll get used to it, especially if you plan on being a CFI
Gabriel_Owners@reddit
You must be new here.
reidmrdotcom@reddit
When getting my private over 20 years ago we were at a D field and tower called our base turn right towards another airplane on final. My instructor grabbed the controls, turned back to downwind. Tower said sorry. And since then I’ve made sure to be cautious and continue to see and avoid everywhere. I also do minimal stuff below 18k and keep scanning even above B airspace now that I’m at the airlines.
Classic-Common-4351@reddit
My airport always advise on traffics they would tell you to fly different heading if one of the pilot doesn’t say traffic in sight.
DonWop1@reddit
Wow… what’s your buddy do for a living?
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Before training I figured aviation was so regulated that once you were inside a towered zone, ATC had the picture, transponders did their thing, and everybody could see everybody, you basically just had to fly the airplane and not stare at the ground, not long ago that idea took a real beating.
Flying with a buddy in his new Cirrus G7, he just took delivery and I was right seat with the GoPro running, we were going to do a little walkthrough on the airplane on the way back, we picked up the controller approaching the field, got our clearance into the zone, doing everything by the book.
Then the traffic system pipes up traffic 12 oclock, 2 miles, same altitude, couple seconds later, traffic 12 oclock, 1 mile. I look up out the windscreen and theres a plane coming dead at us, same altitude, pointed right at us, i yelled and pointed, my buddy banked left hard and the other airplane went by what felt like a wingspan off our right side. GoPro was rolling the whole time so I caught it, zoomed in a bit on the clip so you can actually see how close.
We sat there in silence for a few seconds, then we called up the controller, basically what the hell was that, controller went and talked to the other airplane, turned out to be a student pilot, never saw us, was off her assigned altitude, and heading the wrong direction
I dont know exactly what the takeaway is supposed to be here, but mine is this., even when you are talking to a controller, even with transponders all around, even inside a towered zone, see and avoid is still the thing keeping you alive, did not expect this kind of thing could just happen with the system working the way its supposed to, apparently it can.
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