The Manager Trap
Posted by HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 41 comments
Cracked enough to be senior. Not cracked enough individual work ethic to make principal. Organization recognizing everyone comes to me for judgement calls, even senior PEs, and says "why not manager". Everything was there. I had done hundreds of interviews. I had the respect of everyone up and down the organization. Instead of being hands on with my knowledge, use it to scale out.
I'm now two years in. I work less than I used too. I have my star employee on PE track. Last I hear my senior manager promotion is coming. I make more money than I thought possible at my band (they busted it). But the joy just isn't there.
The dopamine from fixing something, seeing immediate outcomes, wrangling for hours without a context switch, is no longer a joy afforded to me. I think in quarters, projects, and headcount. My only joy coming from when I do promotion packets and get my people my money, better title, and recognition for their work. On a rare occasion I will be escalated to and have an excuse to get hands on again.
Every standup I get comments about how much ass my team kicks from PEs, senior PEs and VPs. But it is meaningless. The joy of coding is gone. But in some ways that joy is gone for everyone, so maybe it isn't so bad.
We all wound up in the manager trap, didn't we. People or AI. It is one and the same.
hippydipster@reddit
You're still coding. It's a dynamic, non-compiled language, and the hardware platform that runs it is very poorly documented.
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
Damn, close to home.
F1B3R0PT1C@reddit
Employment is allowed to suck. If you want that dopamine rush it’s 100% acceptable to do it after hours on your own ideas. That’s usually what happens with other professions. Doesn’t have to be coding either. A lot of senior staff at my place like to build physical objects with woodworking, 3D printing, leatherwork, watercolor painting, etc.
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
It is funny, I joke with my boss that "I am trading more suck for more money and influence".
With the extra time my job has been giving me, I have been rebuilding motorcycles people let sit and selling them. It's nice because I get the problem solving and joy of fixing something, and then get to hear an inline 4 screaming on the highway as the reward.
W3dn3sd4y@reddit
I'm in a similar situation (Staff SWE at FAANG with 14 reports). My people are thriving but I barely code ever anymore and I miss it.
Here is my advice. You have basically 3 options: 1) switch back to IC. Some organizations will allow this, some will allow you to keep the same compensation others will might make you take a haircut. And an IC position equivalent to senior manager is going to have serious expectations and there won't be room for very many of those depending on the size of your org. 2) Bring some IC work back into your life. This is being encouraged a lot as many organizations look to eliminate middle manager layers and/or see leaders "leading from the front" on AI. The "player coach" model is really in vogue right now so it's an opportune time to try if this works for you. I will warn you that this can often feel like you're working two jobs at once. But you can try it and see if it works for you. 3) Embrace your new role and find joy in the impact that you are having. It sounds like you're really good at this job, and there is real value to what you do. The people you manage, especially, seem to be really benefiting from your leadership. Make coding your hobby again instead of your job - I personally find hobby coding to be much more joyful and satisfying than paid Big Tech feature-shipping myself.
I personally chose option 3 for now, but will hopefully be moving more in the direction of option 2 as my org grows and I need to have managers underneath me.
strollertoaster@reddit
Sincere question: what does it mean for staff to have reports? They don’t have a manager?
carkin@reddit
Wow 14 direct reports is a lot. Your week must be filed with one-on-ones. It must be draining !
W3dn3sd4y@reddit
Yeah, it's exhausting. Fortunately it's a senior-heavy team that doesn't require much hand-holding or performance management.
I can't keep this up forever. At some point I'll have to either reduce my scope or bring in one or more capable managers underneath me.
Wyomingisfull@reddit
I might go so far to say as it's back in vogue at the large companies. Ten or so years ago this seemed pretty common in my areas.
uriejejejdjbejxijehd@reddit
My rationale was “if I can do that job better than others, I should make sure to be in that position”
Experiencing the impact of bad management firsthand made it pretty clear that I can create more net value and happiness for everyone that way.
I will say that the advances in AI have put me in a place where I can get a whole lot dopamine from problem solving because suddenly the cost of prototyping and tackling issues is so much reduced.
Trick-Interaction396@reddit
Don’t spend all your time managing. Keep one project just for yourself.
efiddy@reddit
I’m in your situation but haven’t made the move to management yet. Half a decade at the sr level in faang has me burnt out on IC work, plus there is no joy in coding anymore with AI. The main problems I already solve anyways is what to prioritize and who should work on it.
positivitittie@reddit
Fought this battle my whole career. I want no parts of management. Hated all aspects of it. It was trading joy for misery. I absolutely made less money than had I pursued vertical ambition but, like you mentioned, every dip in to management was trading enjoyment for a larger paycheck. Isn’t the point of more money more happiness? Do not regret my choices. 🤷♂️
naxhh@reddit
I got a similar situation but ended up not taking it.
I don't know if was the right choice but salary was kind of the same and the position had lots of meetings I wasn't really interested in
wrex1816@reddit
wiping_my_tears_with_hundred_dillar_bills.gif
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
Accurate.
yerfdog1935@reddit
You got hours without a context switch?
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
Used to, and would do so by ignoring meetings I didn't think I needed to go to and hiding on a different floor for focus.
Zealousideal-War2807@reddit
At least you care about helping the people you work with and not just about yourself
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
True. This is one of the reasons I get people wanting to join my team from others. I actually give a shit about making sure they are taken care of and have an environment that will help them succeed.
StevenJOwens@reddit
One of the smarter, better bosses I ever had, "kept his hand in" by doing some software development, but never on something that was on the organization's critical path, so he could drop it when he needed to deal with a manager interrupt.
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
I joked that two years ago I was still our number 2 IC. Sadly I have grown us so much that my people duties are far greater now. I've been doing this where I can.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
I don't feel the joy is gone. I guess I wasn't looking for the immediate dopamine. I like seeing my team do well, I like seeing us able to execute big things, work well with different departments, getting things moving. Different people like different things.
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
Yeah immediate dopamine is a big problem for me. I'm hooked like an addict to it.
hfourm@reddit
Honestly there is still a fun dopamine cycle with agentic engineering. so....
tevs__@reddit
I hear your experiences, but respectfully, it's not a problem for me. The job is solving problems, it's always been solving problems, it always will be solving problems.
Using a team, using agents, using an editor is irrelevant to me. Every problem starts with me understanding the domain, via research and discussion. I now have more tools for research, big whoop.
Once I've come to an understanding of the problem, I'll solutionize. AI might give suggestions about solutions, and I'll probably feed potential solutions in to analyze for feasibility/overlooked changes, but fundamentally this is an intellectual effort involving other teams and product capabilities.
Once I have a solution, I can break it down into deliverables, and assign that work out.
How would it be different without a team or agents? Well, I'd have to write the code myself. Writing code is only problem solving for junior developers, for senior engineers it is just translating from design to code. In my opinion, it's not an interesting task, and I'm perfectly happy having others do that. I get to review and guide their code so that it matches what I'd build.
Maybe I'm just wired differently to get all the satisfaction from problem solving rather than coding.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
I agree with this too. It's still solving problems, moving the puzzle pieces around. Just different, more temperamental puzzle pieces.
behusbwj@reddit
If breaking down the problem results in tasks that are just coding, you are managing a very green team. What you’re describing is the equivalent of a midlevel engineer at faang. A senior engineer’s job is not typically translating a design to code… it’s guiding other engineers in their system designs.
SolidDeveloper@reddit
Lots of people find the coding part way more interesting than the planning and management aspects. It’s not weird. A lot of engineers I know are like that. If they had wanted to be a manager they would have studied business management rather than software engineering / computer science.
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
I still get the joy of solving problems, but it is the hyper focus loop I miss most. As an IC, I could "lock in" as my juniors say. Now I never get the joy of locking in as I have buckets of problems instead of any specific one I'm doing. I still get joy in seeing a year long design come to fruition but the dopamine from executing isn't there anymore.
PricedOut4Ever@reddit
I’ve fallen into the trap. Similar story, was a star employee, great team where people were exceptional and matched my pace, lots of respect all over the org.
Yet, I was exhausted from the meetings and unsatisfied with my outcomes being massive product achievements but not daily tasks.
I was also existentially terrified of my other management peers who I saw come in hands-off keyboard without context of our codebase. The other managers were not engineers (although they once were) and that was not who I wanted to be.
There’s definitely a happy spot of an engineer team lead or equivalent for a specific technical part of a product. If you’re good, you will get pushed there after a few years. You will have to say no to some opportunities that might pop up first. But finding the right spot is key.
ZukowskiHardware@reddit
I’ve never wanted to manage for this exact reason. I like making things work, and solving problems with software. You have to like building up people to be a manager.
EddieSeven@reddit
I just do management at work, and play with code at home on my own time.
i_ate_god@reddit
the problem of being a manager for me is not getting my hands dirty. I enjoy making things. my last job I was a team lead, so I still wrote code, but also had 4 or 5 people "underneath" me so to speak. I enjoyed organizing with them, setting some standards for everyone to follow, teaching them when I can. But that's about as far as I'm willing to go.
I mean, it sounds to me that you have good work/life balance, invest in your hobbies then!
allknowinguser@reddit
I would switch with you. If you miss coding, there’s no better fix than to code something you actually want. I used to code for fun but now with how much I code at work, I’m all tapped out for personal projects.
MoreHuman_ThanHuman@reddit
my philosophy: there's little joy in working for someone else. doing what I can now so that I can afford to go out on my own without bankrupting myself.
equipoise-young@reddit
I've coined a term called the 'unavoidable ladder'. For some people in IT departments and organizations (think PMs) the only way forward or in is via management.
Developers are in the unique position of having a very rare skill that is always in demand and at the core of these organizations. We can demand high pay for continuing to do what we like without the need for promotion. This is why, as time has gone by, I've become more and more comfortable as a senior IC.
PressureHumble3604@reddit
I would be happy to replace you as manager.
I am glad that at least you do your job as manager, I have seeen so many people that don’t want to be managers that are bad at it and at the same time don’t want to let it go.
HatesBeingThatGuy@reddit (OP)
Hehe, I may be unhappy, but you gotta have a hyper specific skill set to manage this team. You can pry them from my cold dead unhappy hands.
hopiaman@reddit
I see what you did there. We're all becoming managers... of agents.
Consistent_Photo5064@reddit
Yeah, it is a terrible trap that I’ve escaped but landed right in the ai mess we’re living. Joy is mostly gone.