Anti-electric bike propaganda
Posted by D3RPN1NJ4_@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 91 comments
Everyone who owns an e-bike should be extremely concerned about how the car industry is promoting misinformation or true but distracting narratives around e-bike safety.
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It's unbelievably hypocritical to point out the need for e-bike power restrictions without mentioning the unbelievable lack of regulations for high-end sports cars or super cars.
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The direct analog argument to European legislation is useful for establishing classes but fundamentally flawed. Europe has tons of dedicated bike infrastructure and has spent years building to that. The reality of e-bikes in the US is mixed use: pedestrian sidewalks, roadways, and rarely dedicated bike lanes. If we want to effectively transition to better infrastructure we need to have municipal regulations and not statewide or federal. If your vehicle is substantially slower than others on the same roadway it can create hazards. That's why there's minimum speed limits on the highway. One of the benefits of bicycles is the fact that they have the flexibility to be very safe on a sidewalk and in the middle of a roadway.
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The cost of not transitioning to substantially more e-bike usage as fast as possible almost certainly will cause measurably more harm than the alternative. Just because it's not this spectacle, that's in your face doesn't mean that climate change isn't happening obviously everyone in the sub, agrees with that. Cars are treated as a given and e-bikes are treated as the nuisance, so make that make sense. It's clearly big oil and big Auto trying to manufacture consent.
funcentric@reddit
I'm not arguing against cars nor bikes, but to address your comments objectively:
Also a car requires a license to drive and registration to operate. An ebike does not. So the restrictions are higher b/c no one knows who's operating it or what it is that they're operating. Because there are no requirements, it invites less than capable people of operating them which increase the danger. Of course there are terrible drivers but the standard is higher for ebikes b/c there's no legal and no operational standard.
Most jurisdictions do not allow operation of a bicycle on a sidewalk unless you're under the age of 12. Those kids aren't reading any of this. You're also missing the entitlement issue of Americans vs bike riders in other countries who can appreciate the law and abide by them much better than Americans can. We take freedom for granted and it's not always a good thing.
Don't want to debate too much on the climate change thing. The Earth has gone through way more catastrophe before humans walked the earth and it still survived. The new generation is more careless and more entitled. No matter what we do in our generation to "save the Earth," we're doomed by the future inhabitants anyway. Lost cause. Again, this is an observation. I'm not the one causing it or influencing it. Just saying how it is.
It's not bikes that are a nuisance; it's the operators. There are way more cyclists at least in America breaking laws than motorists. There's too much entitlement with cyclists. I feel like I'm the only one that stops at stop signs and red lights. The entire community is making itself look bad. Cyclists treat single lane bike lanes like two lanes. They ride like the laws don't apply to them. Why? Human nature and the fact that they're not registered or licensed. They get away with it, so they do it. Those roadies you see on the streets wearing spandex are there by choice. Pure recreation. They can literally ride anywhere and they're not in a hurry to get anywhere or do anything. No excuses for roadies breaking laws and crowding the streets.
guisar@reddit
I can’t bother to post the link again but every single study hs found cyclists are substantially more likely to follow traffic laws than drivers and the main reason cyclists don’t is because, in the moment, they are being threatened by a car.
thewimsey@reddit
No.
Everyone (well, almost everyone) with an e-bike should be concerned that people pushing this narrative:
are trying to distract from the real issue of 13 year olds driving e-motos at 30mph on MUPs.
No, and it's dishonest to pretend that this is the case.
It wasn't "Big Oil" that made the 14 year old kill the 80 year old on his surron.
unearthk@reddit
No but big oil plays a large part in you knowing about it and treating it so significantly. but if a car did it 100 times you'd turn the other cheek.
Vic_Serotonin@reddit
Yeah no conspiracy. Kids on fast bikes on roads is dangerous as fuck. These are e motos whether they have pedals or not. It’s childish to suggest otherwise. A properly restricted pedelec e-bike needs no extra laws. E-motos should be treated exactly the same as a normal motorbike, just like electric cars are treated the same as any car.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Dangerous to who on roads? Themselves? It's childish to suggest that fast bikes are inherently dangerous or that a "restricted pedelec" is inherently and entirely safe due to being legal. We have one chance at revolutionizing transport, and getting stuck in applying heavy gas vehicle laws to light electrics isnt the way.
Vic_Serotonin@reddit
Dangerous to the rider and other road users. What's you point?
Do you think that an e-moto accident would only be bad for the rider? Pedestrians die when hit at speed. Cars swerve to avoid accidents. People die. There's just no telling, but an unlicenced 13 year old on an unregistered bike crossing a junction on red at 40mph can cause a catastrophe.
It's childish to suggest otherwise.
I also never said anything about pedlecs being inherently safe due to being legal. But pedelecs need no extra laws as they are the same as normal bikes, only the rider doesn't need to get as sweaty.
Have you also considered all the unlicenced e-motos that are ripping up the countryside, ruining it for hikers and mountain bikers (normal and pedelecs), too?
It's another example of entitled assholes thinking that because they aren't using internal combustion they can do what the fuck they like and the law should bend to them.
It shouldn't, and every argument that e-motos should be allowed on the road without legislation is patently absurd.
Just because you want it, doesn't make it right.
Just to clarify, I think a lot of health & safety is bullshit to protect the morons of the world. COmmon sense works most of the time. And it's common sense that kids, e-motos and roads don't mix. They should be licenced or used only on designated tracks. Just like motorbikes.
gravelpi@reddit
I'm not saying you're wrong, but #1 is handled by licensing, registration, and insurance. Are you sure you want to go down that road for ebikes?
buchenrad@reddit
Not necessarily. You can have speed limits without requiring registration and plates and such.
For example, it could be something like a 15-20mph limit for all users (ebikes, acoustic bikes, scooters, runners, etc) on walking paths and then the normal speed limit on roads. You can do that without requiring registration.
gravelpi@reddit
How exactly do you enforce that? The only reason people stop a car is because you have a plate/tag, so if you run they're just going to be waiting for you at home. That ties into the rest because you might loose your license and pay more insurance if you get stopped.
guisar@reddit
You are acting like (in the US) there’s any traffic enforcement at all.
fier9224@reddit
Electric motorcycle cops. They can spend half as much as they do on a patrol car and have a motorcycle that will outrun most any e-bike.
bipolarpsych7@reddit
On the pedestrian path where pedestrians average walking speed is 3mph?
SadisticPawz@reddit
Bikes and peds are usually separated on those.
bipolarpsych7@reddit
Not where I live. Infrastructure is horrendous! Take that into account walking at 3mph with riders zipping by at 28mph+. And to drop the idea of police motos on those paths ... Tons of ebikers want to whine about cars but they dont bother understanding they are doing the same things to pedestrians.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
There's facial recognition in every big city tied to the police departments don't pretend otherwise lol. Not saying it should be strictly enforced by a social credit system just that we're already being monitored and there's plenty of ways to incentivize action without being dystopian... Such as by providing adequate infrastructure.
buchenrad@reddit
In every case where we hear about someone hitting a person with an ebike and running off they always get found, but none of them have plates.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Thats a good solution. It would also mean I'd still have the flexibility of riding a bit faster alone at night with no traffic.
Winter_Basis_6653@reddit
for class three e-bikes definitely a need registration. for cars that can travel over 120 km an hour definitely need a new classification or better yet banned. I'm sure.
gravelpi@reddit
120km/h seems pretty low, there are speed limits here faster than that, not to mention places without a speed limit. But those cars are kept in check due to the rising costs of speeding anyway.
Winter_Basis_6653@reddit
120 km is the top speed where I live. however if the speed limit is higher elsewhere like Germany, that's a different story. still anybody that can afford a car and I can go faster should be able to afford to pay more. speed kills, specialty cyclists.
Immediate_Shock_8299@reddit
Bro every single car on the planet can hit 120 without issue - depending on the time of day, the flow of traffic on the highway where I'm at is 120-140. maybe a smart car would have an issue maintaining 120km/h
High performance vehicles are classified as such through insurance
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Almost like that's cause there's no good infrastructure for cyclists especially if they might want to go faster or not be next to cars etc.
buchenrad@reddit
There are highways in the US that are 85mph (136km/h).
UT07@reddit
The laws are in place now. The problem is the overpowered throttle emoto crowd is not following them (license, insurance, registration)
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
Driver Licenses and Insurance doesn't matter much when you're dead,
digitalboom@reddit
This sub is a perfect example of why they are winning, each time you go get out of here with the emoto to people who own one you are literally giving away some of your power and reach. We should all be as one because in the end we may belong in separate subs but it’s a heck of a lot harder fighting the good fight from 17 different locations and expecting people you intimated out of your sub isn’t really going to get them to help you much. Yes, we all know the difference from emoto to pedal ebike but guess what both people who ride are the ones with the auto industry foots on its neck.
thewimsey@reddit
E-bikers and E-moto riders aren't on the same team.
Stop it with the conspiracy theories.
When a 14 year old on a surron rips by me (and everyone else) at 30 mph, while I'm on my MUP, that is the problem.
Not Big Auto.
SadisticPawz@reddit
PEVs are the future and are all on the same team. Stop trying to cause infighting.
30mph is pretty low and fine if theres a proper gap but he should still slow down way more.
digitalboom@reddit
Dude, this sub. As someone who enjoys riding I’ve seen this before which is how this sub came to be in the first place. Pedal power people didn’t want these people there so they made it a terrible experience, now instead of learning from that experience they pay it forward. It’s almost like people can’t just coexist and fight the good fight together. I’ve seen pedal e-bikes here that shouldn’t be on the road like at all but instead of telling people they need to upgrade their brakes they’ll spend all their energy trashing everything that doesn’t resemble theirs.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Me and you both, dude. Been on this sub for 7 years and it was never like this until recently. It's gotten so fucking bad. The cycling sub still hates us too of course. Nothing changed on that front.
digitalboom@reddit
I’m an emoto owner myself along with three class 3 pedal e-bikes. You still think we aren’t on the same team. You don’t think the same emoto person you ran off can own more than one vehicle.
Again, you folks always default to the 14 year old rider. That’s not who I’m talking about, I’m talking about people like me with disposable income, who pays taxes, and gets involved in political movements to hold onto the things I enjoy like… e-bikes. But I’m sure the person with a $600 ebike who rides it 6 times a year is going to be at the town hall fighting by your side.. regarding minors. That’s a parenting issue and I’m glad they are being held accountable. I have over 30k across my five bikes I think I have a lot more to fight for than a lot of other people.
Baseic@reddit
You've been posting videos of group rides where you and your buddies are:
Running red lights
Blocking intersections
Driving in the wrong direction, with oncoming traffic
Taking over cars and motorcycles on both sides
Using all kinds of paths
Cutting of pedestrians on crossings
digitalboom@reddit
The stupidity in this post cannot be understated.
thewimsey@reddit
Because those are the majority of e-moto riders I see on the MUP. And because a 14 year old e-moto rider recently killed a pedestrian.
Yes. E-moto riders are in trouble because of their own acts.
Not because Big Auto is scared.
digitalboom@reddit
So you are basing your entire opinion on what you see on the MUP? Ok.. I live in a city with over 8.5 million residents, a reported 65,000 food delivery people, plus commuters, adventurers etc within a ten block radius I have 6 bike shops, 4 offer bike rentals. Within a mile I have one bike shop that sells emotos. They are going out of business. I don’t think people sitting in a suburb truly have a grasp on just how many class 1-3 bikes are in a city like mine. If anything my city should be backing this mode of transportation, right? They aren’t. But instead of us fighting that we are here talking about emotos still, bringing back my original point about this sub and the mentality of splitting us all up. Thank you for proving my point.
ACAB007@reddit
I wish more people understood that bikes and protected pike paths are the future.
Relative-Display-676@reddit
They are not, they are a recreation vehicle.
TheFlightlessDragon@reddit
They don’t restrict the power in cars necessarily, but they restrict who can be driving them.
Cats require licensure, registration, insurance etc.
Ebikes are currently a Wild West, you can buy them off any online retailer without anyone checking your age or the age of the one who will be riding it.
So idiot parents buy motos for their middle schoolers.
We need to enforce e-bike speed limits, in other words, fine the shit out of those going over 28. Or if they’re minors, fine their stupid parents.
That would resolve the issue pretty quickly I think.
Brain32@reddit
What's more ironic is that lately I've been looking at electric motorcycle/moped not to torture my car with small city errands. And the thing is this, in my country with a car driving license I can drive a moped, limited to 45kmh but if I want a 125cc equivalent that would top out at 90kmh I have to take a driving test. Naturally, both need to be registered and insured.
So basically, me having a full car driving license am limited to 45kmh while a kid or even a grown up that never took a driving test on an e-bike can fly around at 60-80kmh with no license, registration or insurance.
That's completely crazy!
bipolarpsych7@reddit
1: Argument doesn't make sense. Safety is safety regardless.
2: Municipal regulations will create more complexity to an already complex issue. I service bikes for a living and I have clients from all over, national/international ... If you start restricting and making rules per municipality, youre creating a nightmare for riders that need to cross multiple municipalities to daily commute, long-range riders, bike packers, etc. Its already a nightmare for some riders that still own a car and travel with their bikes, especially if theyre in and out of the more restrictive states/countries. Another issue with using municipalities is that its unlikely to be enforceable in regions with fewer resources. Infrastructure will be hampered, not helped as municipalities cant afford regular maintenance.
3: Measurably more harm? Cars arent going anywhere unless we run out of fuel. Getting more people on bikes is nice, but quite insignificant in the big picture. And, how exactly do you think batteries are made? Lithium Ion batteries? Electricity? We've been using rare earth metals at an alarming pace with our innovations in electronic technology while still relying on fossil fuels. Renewables figures arent exactly transparent nor do they make up a majority. We're well past solutions that would substantially impact global warming/climate change ...
Ebikes arent treated as any more of a nuisance than any other type of new vehicle.
Blitqz21l@reddit
Agreed. That said, its still a both sided issue. Yes, the crazy need to over regulate e-bikes and do nothing about car speeds, infrastructure like adding bike lanes, and making roads slower is beyond needed and hypocritical when contrasted by how much more damage cars do. Cost of lives as well as cost of road maintenence vs the argument that "those damn kids are going to hurt someone and they are inconveniencing me."
And yeah, we do need better regulation in terms of how they co-exist. I'd add that ebikes also don't need further class definitions, the class 1,2,3 is fine where it is. But there is a lack of public awareness on it. Those claiming ebikes are kids doing wheelies on the road arent ebikes, they're e-motos. And thats where the crack down needs to happen.
SadisticPawz@reddit
I agree. Crack down on the wheelie kids and not regular people trying to live their lives.
Fair_Suspect8866@reddit
Your 2. Point. The Dutch are slowly absolutely hating certain styles of ebike because they do not play well with an embedded cycling culture of slow speed and all ages sharing dedicated infrastructure.
Teenagers ragging around on 'fat bikes' and delivery riders doing what delivery riders do has hardened sentiments that mean that many cities are looking to ban 'fat bikes' and commercially used ebikes from cycle lanes, for public safety reasons.
Price-x-Field@reddit
1 thing that has me on the fence. I’m so worried about it starting a fire. I would feel safe getting a gas motor but I don’t want the noise.
Ol_Man_J@reddit
Where are you seeing this propaganda? Tilting at windmills
ZebraGrape2345@reddit
That kind of framing turns a nuanced policy issue into a conspiracy narrative, which makes it harder to take the underlying concerns seriously even if there are real lobbying pressures and car-centric planning biases historically.
buchenrad@reddit
It is hypocritical to make a big fuss about power levels, whether it's in a bike or a sports car, because doing so about either is ridiculous.
It's not the hardware. It's how you use it. There are a whole lot more altimas out crashing into things than there are sports cars. An idiot is dangerous with any equipment. If you take the mustang away from the guy losing control of his burnout after a car meet and give him a Camry, he won't suddenly become a safe and reasonable driver.
Even with acoustic bikes you've got idiots running all over the place endangering themselves and others.
If it's got functional pedals it's an ebike. Set rules that govern how they can be used and hold people accountable.
ScienceMajestic8716@reddit
Camry is an equal killer compared to mustang, so not a good analogy.
But the safety of bike at 20 mph is different than bike at 50 mph.
suboptimus_maximus@reddit
Nah, cars should not accelerate as fast as the latest EVs. It’s just insane how these things are going 30 MPH instantly from a standing start. I see lots of cases of EV drivers failing to yield to pedestrians at crossings and the car is half way across the intersection before startled pedestrians even realized they’re not stopping. Way too aggressive to be around people. I love a few driveways from a stop sign and the speeds I’m seeing through my residential street from cars that are coming right off a compete stop are nuts, totally unsafe.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
It's almost like there's a balance to be met between access and excess...
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Pretty much yeah, that and build better infrastructure to support the chosen options and if people drive too fast and get hurt either they're reckless or the design is reckless or both.
Trumpismybabymamma@reddit
Imagine if every car speed governor that only allowed speed limits, people would go nuts.
Ticket speeders. Ticket reckless bikers.
As for biking in traffic, more power would be safer as long as other saftey precautions and laws were followed. But thats just like, my opinion, man.
levianan@reddit
Argument 1. Whataboutism
Argument 2. Stopped reading. Gotta have a strong first argument.
UT07@reddit
Take it to the emoto sub. This is a sub for electric bicycles. Cyclists have been sharing the road with cars for 100 years
not_productive1@reddit
I love my ebike but I think we're currently in a situation where if e-bikers aren't acknowledging the problem and participating in the conversation about regulation we're going to get left behind. It's not just car industry astroturfing. The suburbs are lousy with kids going way too fast on the damn things, and people have eyes.
420Aquarist@reddit
This is the most retarded thing I’ve read in a while. Why do many car companies have e-bikes that they license? Porsche , ford Mercedes, jeep just to name a few. The people ruining it are the emoto crowd.
ChardNo5532@reddit
E-bikes are not bicycles, the first motorcycle was bicycle with a motor on it, Harley Davidson
slimbellymomo@reddit
Electric bicycle patents go back to the mid 1890s, and a number were available in friction- and hub-drive configuration.
According to the wikis, the oldest Harley-Davidson, "Serial Number One" was completed in 1904.
It was Daimler and Maybach who made the first two-wheeled, petroleum fueled, internal combustion engine powered vehicle in 1885.
The very first powered bicycle was the Michaux-Perreaux Steam Velocipede, from 1867 if you believe one date.
I've also just realized that I have never wanted anything more than a steam velocipede.
waronhumans@reddit
Cap if that hoe has pedals that function it's a bicycle with a moter.
gravelpi@reddit
It's a moped at that point, which many places have specific laws around. Laws that, generally, ebikes don't meet.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Since when can you pedal a moped? Also mopeds regulations aren't perfect either
gravelpi@reddit
Actual mopeds have always had pedals. An ebike with a throttle is exactly the same concept, other than one being gas, one being electric.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Puch_Maxi_Special_by_Foxy_Thing.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped
Tasty-Fox9030@reddit
Moped pedals are usually for starting the motor as much as anything else. Pedalling a Tomos or what have you is NOT practical.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Vespa pattern doesn't have pedals and frankly those are the standard which the modern moped has been built from. I guess I stand corrected though, I will say that many ebikes are often differently designed and that in general we shouldn't be adhering to linguistic origins as much as what actually makes sense such as better infrastructure.
gravelpi@reddit
Vespa is a scooter, at least in every mention I've seen of them in the US. Moped always has pedals.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
So are like, segways?
waronhumans@reddit
Well my state is pretty loose about it so I'm fine. I'll keep riding my bicycle with a motor
Disastrous_Ad7487@reddit
What separates a bicycle with a motor from a moped with pedals in your opinion? Actually asking cuz I see so many people on both sides of this and haven't decided where I come down yet.
waronhumans@reddit
Moped with pedals would be extremely hard to pedal not optimal for pedaling. Not designed to be pedal. My opinion for it to be bike it's got to have usable functioning pedals that make actual difference in how u ride.
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Not of those calls can't be realistically used to pedal the bike
waronhumans@reddit
Jessie wtf are talking about. My ebike can be easily pedal it a bike with a motor....... Realistically if my battery dies I can pedal home
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Yours can.
Moped and scooter styles can't.
waronhumans@reddit
Those are emotes not bikes. I'm talking about bicycles with moters that can be pedal easily. You know ebikes
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
Except that people are calling scooters with pedals "ebikes"
mobtownie11@reddit
Not really. Harley Davidson was about 20 years late to that party
Relative-Display-676@reddit
This anti car propaganda again? You really think they care about your measly scooter on two wheels? You are fucking delusional. I'm from motor city with friends in car industry. You know what their #1 concern? Chinese cars. Ebikes aren't even #387283.
The #1 anti ebike promoters are ebike riders.
holmquistc@reddit
I've been driving electric for over 200,000 miles and I'm getting an electric bike soon. People have politicized these transportation options for years. Still amazing to me because they're complaining about gas prices all while I haven't paid for fuel for months. I really don't give a rat's ass about their opinions. They're all reading from a script their political party tells them. You'll notice this through the years.
PuzzledActuator1@reddit
Just say you want a motorbike you don't have to register. Doesn't matter if the power comes from a battery or from gas, it's a motorbike.
Pedal bikes with low power electric pedal assistance are different.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Registration is often a hurdle meant to get in the way for only those who can't afford to breeze through it for various reasons the more power you have the less your choices are restricted plus so what if people can have extremely light weight motorbikes which they use across multiple classes of transportation as long as they drive responsibly according to the expected uses not to mention how it's a class issue regarding being a pedestrian who has to use their feet and equestrian who doesn't have to going back millennia sorry but it's the truth.
Unfair_Newspaper_877@reddit
Oh just shush... I'm in the auto industry and have close ties to oil.... nobody cares about ebikes.... many have them. You're making this up, there is no plot to hold them back
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
It's easier to blame Big Oil and Big Auto than to take responsibility for one's reckless and illegal riding on an e-moto.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
It's not the big bad car industry creating problems for ebikes. Abusive riders have done that all on their own. There isn't some astroturfing campaign to restrict and regulate ebikes. It's genuine and justified outrage by ordinary people fed up with reckless riders, mostly e-moto kids.
This is pure deflection and denial. And won't do anything to address the situation and preserve ebike access.
band-of-horses@reddit
Electrical_Tof@reddit
English teacher would say stop waffling
Shiney_Metal_Ass@reddit
What do you mean sports cars aren't regulated?
Electrical_Tof@reddit
You can buy cars that can go faster than the speed limit?
suboptimus_maximus@reddit
Which countries have regulations on top speed and acceleration? In the case of newer cars and particularly EVs the acceleration, especially from a standing start is a serious safety problem in downtown areas, I constantly drivers doing touch-and-goes (assuming they even stop) and are going 30 MPH almost instantly, sometimes with only 100-200’ to the next stop sign, the speed I’m seeing around downtown and pedestrian areas from EVs are crazy.
BeePrevious5282@reddit
yall ladys doth protest too much, if you just shut the fuck up people would hate ebikes a lot less
DonnPT@reddit
If your vehicle is capable of traveling at motor vehicle speeds, it's a motor vehicle. Bicycles need to be able to travel substantially slower than other road vehicles, so the general rule for road design should be to make room for that to work safely.
15 mph built in motor-propelled speed limit would be OK.
Apprehensive_Goal876@reddit
Yes this 👏