Boss is on “vacation” but still schedules meetings which she attends.

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At my previous job I started requesting IT disable their accounts when they’re on leave. Took a while to get that through HR, but showing how many hours people were spending on work while being on leave, helped. Also had an example of someone doing work and causing a problem further down the line, but then wasn’t around to deal with it.

Enforcing proper handovers and continuity is good team hygiene.

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Bedroom_Bellamy@reddit

I'm an IT Manager. When I was at my last job, I went on a trip to Hawaii that I had been planning for two years. My boss made me take my laptop and I had to spend the entire first 2 days working from my room. This was solely because my team was so understaffed that they literally couldn't function without me (and I couldn't get the budget to get more staff. Why would they give me more staff when they can just make me pick up the slack?) And yes, I took the PTO back for those two days and claimed it as straight time.

I left that job with a finger in the air.

I've been at a different place for the last 4.5 years and the only times I've had to work on PTO was genuine P1 emergencies. Still not perfectly ideal but they do try every other possible route before engaging me.

I will not schedule a single damn work thing during my own PTO though, that's crazy work.

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SpaceChimps98@reddit

Two days of PTO doesn't make up for two days of interrupted vacation in Hawaii that you've been planning for two years. I get having your laptop with you in case of an emergency. But it shouldn't be expected that you'd be available in any immediate capacity during that time.

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sobrique@reddit

Yup. I want at least 2:1 if you're wanting me to work when I'm deliberately unwinding and NOT thinking about work.

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jcwrks@reddit

I agree, but that needs to be negotiated with your boss and memorialized in writing (email). :)

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itishowitisanditbad@reddit

(and I couldn't get the budget to get more staff. Why would they give me more staff when they can just make me pick up the slack?)

Well yeah.

When you find the son of a bitch who did this to you... oh boy he is in trouuuuubleeeee

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

It's weird to see people defending this.

The principle they aren't considering is the impact of a sudden unexpected and extended absence by the boss. Because if that business/department/team cannot function without her being involved, its going to fall apart in the hit by a bus scenarios.

Same principal for every other position in an organization. If that job cannot be handled (not perfectly, but handled) when they're gone for an extended period, it's a problem.

There's also something to be said about the boss being away once in a while and being able to relax a bit for morale.

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user1390027478@reddit

There’s a difference between “you’re here because you make things better” and “you’re here because we can’t run without you”.

I run a tight ship and my guidance, I hope, makes things run more smoothly. However, I know if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, my team will be fine. However, if I can save hours of work when I get back because I take an hour meeting while I’m on vacation, or make it so my team can start work earlier, it makes sense for me to do so.

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itishowitisanditbad@reddit

I run a tight ship

This is one of those phrases that has never shown itself to be anything but a problem/red flag.

Its like seeing "we're a family" culture. Its only a red flag.

Tight ships don't really result in 'hours of work' for a single missed meeting. Tight ships run themselves well without their captain for a moment.

3/4 times i've heard 'tight ship' it just means micromanagement from someone struggling to keep up so they have to pull things closer to the chest.

I don't know you but statistically I can't help but lean that direction on that phrase.

Could you elaborate on what you see as a 'tight ship'? What does that mean to you? Maybe i'm always understanding it differently.

Can't help but feel like the lived evidence is perpetually damning though.

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user1390027478@reddit

What I mean by running a tight ship is that the organization I work for is happy with my team, my team is generally happy with their working conditions, and we do our job well.

Hours of work for a missed meeting is slight hyperbole. However, there are certain decisions which only I can make, which are generally things like decisions which put the organization at risk or decisions which contradict the organization’s stated requirements of my team. These aren’t appropriate to delegate.

I can delay meetings about these things, and make my team wait until I’m back to make a decision, or just get them over with.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

You should have a dedicated second in command that has full authority while you are out. If not, at least someone who you trust to make judgement calls you will back whether right or wrong. At the very least, someone needs to be able to liase to your boss when you are out. If you get hit by a bus someone will make those decisions. A lot of regulated industries and governments require someone to be a designated second in command even if they are not a manager normally.

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user1390027478@reddit

If I get hit by the bus, there are people who will step in and make those decisions. This isn’t business continuity.

They don’t make those decisions now because I’m the one who has to live with them, I’d rather make them myself, and I’d rather keep things running smoothly in the interim.

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Illnasty2@reddit (OP)

It’s funny how you said the difference between….they are neither. They are “here” because they have nothing to fucking do while they are out!

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Otto-Korrect@reddit

I get that. I think my boss has just never seen a meeting that she doesn't want to run. I don't even thinks she is aware of it, but 5 minutes after she joins, she's taken control no matter who's meeting it was.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

I would say I used to work with this person but my control freak at a prior job was a guy. Horrible leadership. Not even efficient management. Just bad.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

They are “here” because they have nothing to fucking do while they are out!

So who cares? Why do you care how they live their life outside of work?

I'm genuinely baffled as to why this bothers you so much

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mnvoronin@reddit

It sets expectations for the manager's subordinates. "If I do this while I'm on vacation, why don't you?"

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OregonTechHead@reddit

It only does that if you're unwilling to set your own personal boundaries.

Owners/presidents/ceos commonly do these things. Are you saying every single employee thinks they're expected to work all hours because of that?

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mnvoronin@reddit

facepalm.jpg

Are you deliberately twisting my words or are you genuinely unable to understand?

"Sets the expectations" means the management side, not the employee side. It will be used as a leverage to push back against the boundaries set by the employees.

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centpourcentuno@reddit

OP probably wants to slack off while boss is out lol

On a serious note, if this is in the USA, job security is a joke! Everyone is afraid of getting replaced/laid off. The poor manager here is probably in this situation and wants to be "visible". This is normal in IT unless you work for big corporations. When sh*t goes down, its usually the middle managers that see the exit rather than the grunt sysadmin who probably caused it.

Of course you have the natural micro managers, but in my experience this checking in while on vacation is always because of job security fears. Its the same way most don't even take PTO that they have accrued

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OregonTechHead@reddit

Everyone is afraid of getting replaced/laid off.

I'm not. No one I work with is.

The poor manager here is probably in this situation and wants to be "visible".

You (and 90% of this thread) are making assumptions based on 3 simple sentences that doesn't indicate anything of the such.

This is normal in IT unless you work for big corporations.

It's not normal though. It's normal in shitty companies.

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centpourcentuno@reddit

You accuse others of assuming but yet here you are doing the same thing

You speak of your experience where no one in your org is uncomfortable , good for you ..how do know others are the same way?

You say that it's normal in "shitty " companies .OK ..are you privy to what OPs company is ?

Typical redditor getting worked up for no reason lol

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TeflonJon__@reddit

Some managers make the environment stuffy and uncomfortable, and this also sets a precedent in their environment that it is normal to be doing work things when you take PTO. Leaders set examples in every single action they take, whether they accept that high-pressure fact or not.

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Feral_PotatO@reddit

Why do people always take the business view of this issue. While I don’t attend meetings while I’m out of the office, I truly hate having to catch up on my work when I’m out for extended periods.

Why doesn’t anyone consider that the boss is doing this to ensure she doesn’t miss a step when she returns to work?

Again I’m not supporting this from the business side, I agree if a boss not being there will cause chaos, that’s an issue.

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Loki-L@reddit

In certain industries even in the most anti-worker countries people are required to take vacations and not work for a certain amount of time per year. This is to detect fraud and malfeasance.

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Vritrin@reddit

We have to use at least 5 PTO days a year or the company can be fined. It’s probably a good policy as I struggle to reach them as it is, if it wasn’t mandated I probably wouldn’t. Sick days count though as they aren’t distinct from PTO for us.

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lemon_tea@reddit

It's part of GAAP.

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bitsbytes01@reddit

And summer/winter school holidays are GAAP For Kids?

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jadraxx@reddit

Yup. I've worked with hundreds of small retail stores over the years in my job. The most common I've come across is an accounting cooking books to cover their embezzlement. They take a vacation and someone steps in and notices something is off.

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lungbong@reddit

The person who processed the overtime payments at a place I worked was taken ill and off work for a couple of months and someone else picked it up and found out the regular person was submitting extra overtime hours for themself that they weren't working.

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geekworking@reddit

Yearly two weeks off in a row is required in a lot of financial roles.

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mixduptransistor@reddit

I'm not sure that the issue is or isn't that the company can't operate without this manager. If they were going somewhere or doing something and truly weren't available I'm sure they'd schedule the meetings around it. But higher level executives ARE their job very often. It's unreasonable to think that they are going to just fuck off into the ether for two weeks and you literally forget they exist. As to the last point, if your workplace and relationship with your boss is so unhealthy that you need them to fuck off for morale, then you need to reconsider your employment arrangement

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

I honestly have never worked anyplace that did not have at least one manager that caused this behavior. Some people hate being watched. A lot of managers feel the need to stand over their people. It can even be as simple as shit rolls down and when boss is away, shit from higher up backs up until boss returns with a proverbial plunger. I may be proving your point, but many workplaces have an information flow that is a sewer. Worse analogy would be middle managers are the middle part of the professional centipede.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

if that business/department/team cannot function without her being involved, its going to fall apart in the hit by a bus scenarios.

Where did you get all of that from the 3 sentences OP posted?

There's a very big difference between "attending meetings" and doing day to day business tasks

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MenBearsPigs@reddit

Workaholic shit runs down hill. It sets implicit expectations about staying late or how responsive to be outside of work hours.

Should people put their foot down and ignore that? Yes.

But in practice it can genuinely be difficult, especially if more and more team members start adopting that attitude.

Working extra for no extra compensation, generally speaking, hurts the collective workforce and benefits only the owners.

Just a perspective on why someone may care about stuff like this. It isn't always going to be the case.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

It sets implicit expectations about staying late or how responsive to be outside of work hours.

Only if you let it.

You don't need to follow what your boss does in this situation.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

Its very common to have unwritten rules and expectations and if your boss is doing it and you refuse, it can be career limiting. That is why upper management should reign in this bosses behavior. Not that it would happen.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

If I ever become CEO, I would fire all the brown nosing "go-getters" and workaholics. The world would be so much better without both of those things. Chances are I will never be CEO because CEOs usually have to be both of those things to get there, but I can dream.

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

It's almost like I've seen people do this in places I have worked and am speaking from experience.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

Ok? But your experiences aren't the same as OPs.

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

Congratulations, I know it's easy to think of me and OP as clones but we're not.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

I know it's easy to think of me and OP as clones but we're not.

I literally said the exact opposite.

You're the one that's claiming your life experiences are identical to OP's.

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

Went completely over your head.

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Trust_8067@reddit

It's the managers free time to do what they want. You're making a wild assumption that the business can't function without them. Some people just feel comfortable making sure everything is under control.

If that's the type of personality OP's boss has, then it would suck for them to spend their entire vacation suffering from anxiety because they're worried about what's happening in the office.

Let people live the lives they want to live, quit being so judgmental.

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

Just because you see yourself in this comment doesn't make mine any less true.

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Trust_8067@reddit

I don't see myself in the comment at all, I just think it's stupid to judge the way other people want to spend their time. It's a sign of ignorance and immaturity.

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Gnonthgol@reddit

It is not just about a hit by the bus plan. It is about trust. If you can not trust your employee to make the best decisions in your absence there is a big distrust between the leader and the employee. And this will affect day to day operations. For example how can a leader focus on more complex project planning if they have to constantly make sure their employees are doing their job.

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DramaticErraticism@reddit

But you don't understand, this is how she derives her value. She sees herself as a peg that cannot be taken out, without collapsing everything, therefore they cannot dispose of her.

But that has nothing to do with whether they dispose of her or not, it will be layoff related or something out of her hands, so she may as well take the PTO.

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Xidium426@reddit

I asked my boss one if I can put in PTO on a Friday. He responded with "I'm on PTO that day so don't burn yours, I won't know if you are here or not".

Wild the differences between different management styles.

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Existential_Racoon@reddit

Lol I tell my salary guys to respond to an email.

Legally, they worked that day, it's paid

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jcwrks@reddit

For clarity, does an email response mean you are marked present for a regular work day, or does it refer to "on call" pay or comp time?

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anomalous_cowherd@reddit

Are you one of these managers who thinks salaried means "available 24/7/365" ?

Or did I read it wrong?

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zomiaen@reddit

You read it wrong. He's saying they should respond to an email. Therefore, they have done work, and it was not a paid time off.

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Existential_Racoon@reddit

Nailed it.

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anomalous_cowherd@reddit

Excellent. I've had managers who went either way...

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JohnL101669@reddit

The way you phrased this, it took me a hot minute to see what he was really saying. LOL!

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AnotherTiredDad@reddit

This is something that will make an employee follow that manager to the depots of hell. Good boss right there.

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Bacon_egg_@reddit

I had a boss that if he took PTO he was basically unreachable unless you called his personal cell phone, and even then he probably wasn't answering. Definitely sets a good expectation for how the team views vacation.

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itishowitisanditbad@reddit

"Available via Venmo only"

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dowhileuntil787@reddit

We just got acquired, and the CEO still took his two weeks off mid-transaction to go spend time with family in southern Italy. No contact except for emergencies. The transaction just got put on ice for a few weeks. Not the end of the world!

Another time, we had a DR/BC-activation due to a critical supplier abruptly going out of business, and nobody even called me (I'm the CTO but was off for three weeks). Platform lead sent me emails to let me know what was going on, but other than that everyone followed the rehearsed plan and made any necessary decisions without me. As it should be.

It's pretty rare that any single person should need contact on an ultra time critical basis if you've done the bare minimum of planning. People sometimes get incapacitated or worse. It used to be standard practice that everyone in finance in the UK to have a mandatory two week no contact holiday each year, completely locked out from system access. Mainly to detect fraud, but also to pick up any accidental key man risk.

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Animeninja2020@reddit

I sort of the same but different, when I was on Vacation our company got acquired. Came back to controlled chaos.

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skyxsteel@reddit

When I go on PTO, I delete teams and my company email from my phone. Otherwise I will keep looking.

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insufficient_funds@reddit

This is how my entire team and boss do it. Very few of us have shared personal phone nums to anyone outside of HR as well.

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MelonOfFury@reddit

I spent much of my adult life working in Europe. I don’t work on my vacation. I also schedule mental health days if I feel myself needing to depressurise. My bosses have never said anything about it.

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TheWhiteCuban@reddit

I had a boss like this, but he expected you to pick up if you were out on PTO but he needed you. To be fair, it was selective. But one sided

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Xidium426@reddit

Anytime I would get a call on PTO my boss made sure to credit it back.

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Mushroom5940@reddit

Yeah my boss always credits back the entire day even if I have to take a 20 minute call. He says It’s not a true day off because I might be stressing from that 20 minute call.

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ModernDayWitcher@reddit

Bro if I'm on PTO and someone calls my cell they are being ignored until I'm back in the office. My OOO message has my MSP's contact info for a reason

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sobrique@reddit

Blows my mind that's not the default.

Like, I get 'being on call' is a thing. But ... it's also a thing that should be paid for.

And downtime is WAY too important to intrude on.

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MitochondrianHouse@reddit

There may be a liability here.

Like even in the US, if you get contacted or do anything while on short term disability leave (for example, a lot of people take this to have a baby since my company only gives 2 weeks of full pay paternity leave, which they aren't required to, because freedom).

I wonder if vacation/paid time off has some similar implications.

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billy_teats@reddit

If the boss is the one scheduling meetings there is a very low chance their boss is contacting them on pto to do work. They want to vacation and still micromanage tasks.

IMO the boss’s boss should be made aware and set a line with the boss. If you cannot be off during pto then you can’t take pto. If you are off you should not be working day to day tasks.

Outages are an exception but well run and funded organizations should have a plan for every individual to have redundancy. What if someone quits the day before an outage?

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Tymanthius@reddit

I wonder if vacation/paid time off has some similar implications.

Almost never in the US.

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DoctorOctagonapus@reddit

That's what I do, and to be honest people expect that where I work. I've openly said if the business can't function without me, that's a failure on the business's part.

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Xidium426@reddit

As it should be. At that job I had a dedicated work cellphone and my boss, my 2nd in command and my friend that pre-dated working there were the only people that had my personal phone number. Work phone was off until I was back in the office.

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spicysanger@reddit

That's a good boss right there 👍👍

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Xidium426@reddit

I tried to be a good employee for him. He went to Mexico every year and his first year there he asked me "Can I remote in from Mexico?" and I asked "Are you on a personal or a work trip?". He responded "Personal trip" and I responded "Then the answer is no, it cannot work.".

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SharpDressedBeard@reddit

Lol that's my management style basically. Shocker my team has no churn.

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noc-engineer@reddit

I had a team leader once who started a monthly meeting (my first) with: "When I call you to offer you an overtime shift, I couldn't give a shit one way or the other if you say yes or not. It's my job to call you and ask, but there's 80 other people on the list so don't feel obligated to work too much just because I ask you" (mostly students who get 40% of the student loan turned into stipends (no need to pay that 40% back) if we pass our courses and make less than 22 000 EUR per year). He clearly knew that some of us or most of us felt obligated to say yes (maybe even thinking the 6 months contract wouldn't be renewed if we said no to working more than the stipulated 14,5 hours a week). It was mind blowing to my 19 year old brain and I think about it so often. I miss you Kim Andre!

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WayfaringGeometer1@reddit

Now there's a mensch.

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progenyofeniac@reddit

This is the management style I’ve been thrilled to work under for a few years now. Being pushed to use my PTO, being told that it’s not his decision whether I can take it or not, just turn it in and inform him when.

That said, I don’t care what my manager does on his PTO, I’m not checking emails or messages while I’m on PTO.

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entropic@reddit

he's a real one.

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StatedFailure@reddit

In my last one on one by boss said "remember, you can take up to 4 hours without using PTO each day. Just update your slack status"

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DoctorOctagonapus@reddit

My boss forgot that the 2nd of January is only a public holiday in Scotland, not England. He was amazed when he idly checked messages in a spare couple of minutes and found we were logged on working.

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Sufficient_War_1891@reddit

That's a dream boss.

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seventeenthirdyeight@reddit

Do we have the same boss? Same verbiage and type of thing she would say in that situation

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english-23@reddit

Lol that's the opposite of how I thought that was going to go based on how the sentence started. I expected a "I'm on PTO so you can't"

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GhoastTypist@reddit

Boss doesn't respect work-life balance. I always think people like that have nothing to live for, so they make work their thing and thats very sad.

My boss is now on the mend but a while back was literally almost dead and instead of taking time off to focus on health, they chose to keep working. Actually they fought with HR to keep working. All their staff was reassigned to another boss because they couldn't do their job duties. Most of the time they were dysfunctional and coming to me stressing about their personal problems. During this time I had a few job interviews trying to get away from the situation. It was horrible.

Now they're much better and pretty much back to good health, just the other weekend they blew up my phone, I had to turn it off on the weekend while I was away on a trip because they had to tell me something. The thing they had to desperately get in touch with me about, was to tell me to check into something when I got back to work on Monday. That resulted in me telling our CEO that we need to do better with work life boundaries within our organization because this type of things happens in all of our departments.

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Kathryn_Cadbury@reddit

I just came back after 3 days off, and was assured my boss/my bosses boss, would look after one of our group mailboxes that runs one of our online stores. My colleague runs it day to day, and I'm backup, but we were both off.

Came in today and its not been touched in 3 days. I asked if anyone had looked and 'they were too busy/didn't think there was anything that important in there'..... It's why I have trust issues and sneak a look at my work email sometimes when off, because I always come back to more work or things to unravel and it makes it hard to feel truly relaxed whilst away.

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Rhythm_Killer@reddit

For my own direct reports, I’ll cut their email and Teams

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awetsasquatch@reddit

My last manager told me if I checked in while I was on PTO, he'd write me up or fire me. I've maintained that sentiment for everyone I manage now lol

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Vritrin@reddit

I feel like that’d just make me too scared to ever actually take PTO at all.

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awetsasquatch@reddit

He encouraged it after big projects wrapped up, I never felt worried

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Rhythm_Killer@reddit

Bit strong but yes

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awetsasquatch@reddit

I'm fairly certain he wouldn't actually do either of those things, but the point was he'd be pissed

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Actual-Thanks-634@reddit

That's not a vacation, that's just working from a nicer location.

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duranfan@reddit

My manager doesn't attend meetings while on vacation. But, she is solely responsible for creating all new user accounts, offboarding termed users, assigning all Microsoft licenses, AD fileshare access changes, mobile phone device management, and probably some things I am either forgetting or don't even know about.

Why? Because our CIO is scared shitless of our auditors.

She never gets a proper vacation.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

I hope she resigns with little to no notice. That is an absolute disaster waiting to happen. What on earth do you do if she does all that?

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duranfan@reddit

Me? Heh. Reset peoples’ passwords, run hardware updates to fix borked hardware, image and ship new hardware, coordinate service calls with HP field techs, give users LAPS passwords so they can install shit, clean up malware because our security pukes don’t do that themselves, test / fix A/V crap, run reports from the monitoring tools, that kind of stuff.

Yeah, I’m just help desk. But our sysadmins and network pukes are damn near useless unless literally everything goes down. Otherwise, they don’t want to be bothered.

It sucks. I’d love the chance to do some of the stuff she does, but since I’m a contractor, they won’t let me touch it.

I’ve been here nearly a decade, and she’s been here even longer.

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ubi_@reddit

dafuq? that is some bullshit lol

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ProfessionalEven296@reddit

I had a manager who would never take PTO. It reflects on the staff also - nobody would want to take PTO.

Eventially I left, and now work at a location where my manager knows what good PTO looks like.

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DoctorOctagonapus@reddit

Our HR would go mental at them. For some reason we have a policy saying x% of our leave must be booked by certain times of the year. One of these deadlines is coming up and HR have already given our IT director an earful over it.

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Vritrin@reddit

Do they have some minimum required time off by national law? Like my HR never cares if most of my PTO gets burned, it’s up to me whether or not I use it. We have to use 5 days a year and can roll over the previous year’s time off. Otherwise you can let the rest burn if you want.

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DoctorOctagonapus@reddit

Here in the UK all full time workers must have a minimum of 28 days of leave per year. Some HR departments don't care if you use it or not, but mine is particularly vigilant on making sure people use the time they've got.

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itishowitisanditbad@reddit

Our HR would go mental at them.

We have a bunch of people on a 'use it or lose it' forced PTO thing.

But its genuinely because the culture is so good that people can do errands and stuff during the day without using PTO so everyone just accumulates faster than you can use it.

Very weird workplace but very happy for it.

Steve just doesn't work thursdays for the next 6 months or something.

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brontide@reddit

They generally aren't looking out for your best interest, they don't want people to all be taking time in December and they don't want to be liable for taking away time at the end of the year.

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sharkflood@reddit

That's the most American work culture shit I've ever heard

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bythepowerofboobs@reddit

It's different when you are in charge. There have been many times when an important meeting will get scheduled when I already have vacation scheduled and I just need to attend to keep things on track. There also have been many times where a crisis will happen and I need to help my team out.

Aside from emergencies, it's also nice to just check in and know that things are going smooth. It really helps me enjoy my time off.

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Vritrin@reddit

I’d do the same, it gives peace of mind and it‘s saving future me time and stress from having to recap anything I missed while I was out. Spending a little time in a meeting during a holiday saves me more time in the long run.

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DoctorOctagonapus@reddit

I disagree. Holiday is holiday, I don't care if it's a one-to-one with the director, I'm either rescheduling or sending a delegated authority in my place.

Only time I'm OK with being called is for a P1.

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bythepowerofboobs@reddit

Everyone's situation is different. I work in manufacturing and I'm really the only person in the company who understands both the IT and OT big picture and how everything interacts, so it's a case where delegation just isn't possible.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

That sounds like a serious operational risk unless you are immortal and never plan to change jobs.

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MetalEnthusiast83@reddit

I’m a manager too. Not a chance in hell I’d sign on for a meeting when I’m on vacation. My time is important. I’m not checking emails when on vacation either. The whole point is to get away from this shit for a while!

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whatdoido8383@reddit

Sounds like someone needs to learn how to disconnect from work. If the company can't "stay on track" without you for a few weeks, that's a much larger issue.

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bythepowerofboobs@reddit

All part of the joy of working at a mid-size company.

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whatdoido8383@reddit

I hear you but that's why midsized companies are some of the most toxic and draining places to work at. The employees enable them to get away with running lean etc by doing what you're doing.

The first 15 years on my career were in the SMB space, drove me nuts.

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bythepowerofboobs@reddit

It's good and bad. There is immense satisfaction that comes from seeing the decisions you make and the projects you work on directly impact the companies success. I don't think I could handle working at a place where I was a replaceable cog, but I certainly do go through some periods of time where it sounds nicer.

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whatdoido8383@reddit

Yeah, good point. I guess maybe I'm at the point where I just don't care about work stuff like that anymore.

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broohaha@reddit

I had a boss who’d go on official PTO so she could get work done. Only a handful of us were aware she’s actually reachable if absolutely necessary but her Slack would be on Away all day and no meetings scheduled. But you’d see her check in code throughout the day. (She was a software dev manager.)

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

As a manager I have done this but only days here and there. Between higher managers and directs it can be hard to get work done and it beats doing it in the evening or on weekend.

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Workadis@reddit

We are all a little different; I personally find time away from work more stressful than at work. I enjoy what I do which I know is not a luxury that everyone has. a quick 30min call during my vacation is better than a project being delayed because I'm away and every urgent email read is one less when I return.

You can argue that I'm not truly disconnecting and that I "need" it but its more stressful for me to come back to chaos than to peak in from time to time. Who has a vacation that doesn't have idle downtime? what else am I going to do at the airport, at the bar waiting for drinks, on the toilet, etc.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

Then silently lurk in email but dont get involved

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True-Entertainer-981@reddit

I worked for a quasi-government organization once (taxpayer funded and reports to elected officials but run independently). The head of the organization took week long cruises once or twice a month but called in every day for meetings from the ship. Since he was working, the company (tax payers) paid for it. Also, none of his direct reports could take pto while he was out of the office.if we had pto scheduled and he decided to take a last minute cruise, too bad, we had to cancel.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

I hope he gets shown the door

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Own_Error_007@reddit

I've had my MD ask me is it was possible to "turn off" the CEOs email for the week he was supposed to be on leave. I said I'd look into it but didn't think it was possible.

I then had the CEO ask me to not turn off his email.

Told them both to sort it our amongst themselves.

Never heard the request again.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

Your Doctor? Whats MD stand for this context?

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The_Wkwied@reddit

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

What are they doing on the meeting? Are they raising points? Are they actively participating? Or are they joining the 30 minute weekly call from their phone while they're on the beach?

Simply joining a call where you're only listening, on vacation, I wouldn't ask anyone to do this if they didn't want to.

But if they are are leading the meeting and working while at the beach, that's a poo rindicator for the person's work/life balance, and that the org can't function without people working on vacation.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

I normally do not call out typos but you invented a word that I like. This entire thing is indeed a "Poo Rindicator"

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RobbyBurgers@reddit

There are some absolute sickos in here thinking this is normal behavior when you are on PTO as a manager.

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

Seriously.

I get the "this is a critical meeting, please drop by for the hour" but just treating it like a quasi workday is NUTS.

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PlaitOnIck@reddit

I think it’s nuts expecting someone to attend any meeting during time off. I am uncontactable when I’m on leave

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BisonThunderclap@reddit

I've been in the "our client got breached, we need to know X" before. The call to the personal cell moment.

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Aggravating_Refuse89@reddit

Why on earth is the place run so badly that they do not have a playbook to handle the breach and someone empowered to make the decisions. Even if that someone is your boss. There should not be anything that only you can decide or info they do not have. I understand it happens but when it does, it should be identified as a risk and mitigated.

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ustp@reddit

If your boss have your personal cell number - it's not your personal cell.

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itishowitisanditbad@reddit

I feel like you snapped this off the cuff but if you just sat and thought about it for a while it doesn't make any sense.

Ok, my boss has my number. They've never called it once but its not my personal cell anymore?

There are some additional requirements you're skipping over to make some soundbite? lol

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PlaitOnIck@reddit

Lol sounds like a work problem. Not a problem for me on leave. There is ZERO reason to interrupt someone’s leave. “Leave” means leave me alone

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OregonTechHead@reddit

They're right up there with the people offended and angry about this.

Why care so much what someone else does?

Why is OP annoyed by this? I don't care what my boss, or anyone not reporting to me does with their time off.

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noteasily0ffended@reddit

Collective bargaining, man it really shows that unions were pummeled into the ground in the 70s in America. You guys have zero empathy for your peers, if everyone works unpaid OT it becomes expected behaviour.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

You guys have zero empathy for your peers

Again, why do I care what someone else does with their life? Why do YOU care?

if everyone works unpaid OT it becomes expected behaviour.

Set your boundaries. Why are so many people uncapable of doing that and think just because someone else does something, suddenly you're required to do that to?

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Lucifer38769@reddit

Seems goofy to me, but as long as there’s no expectation for me to do the same, they can do whatever they want. When I’m off the clock I’m generally unreachable.

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Lucifer38769@reddit

They help max players have something to upgrade while not increasing the time for everyone else to max out. Same idea as supercharges

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HTDutchy_NL@reddit

Did she take half days off? Could just be working in the morning to make sure deadlines are met while still allowing some relaxation.

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wrt-wtf-@reddit

She needs to be audited.

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CKtravel@reddit

I had a workaholic boss that has read and replied to e-mails while being on vacation (even when he went on a family trip to Croatia 🤦‍♂️) but I didn't care much as he never pestered anybody who was off work (unless the person had on-call duty that is)..

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Kernoriordan@reddit

I’m too European to understand this lack of work-life balance

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abyssea@reddit

So much for work / life balance.

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kagato87@reddit

Kick those meetings off with "Oh, did you cancel your vacation?" Or, "Aren't you supposed to be on vacation?" Remind them hard that it's their free time and they're not being paid.

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RobbyBurgers@reddit

Rule #1.

When you have your first official onboarding meeting with your boss, let him or her know that when you are on PTO - aka - a benefit outlined in the benefits package - that you might as well consider my phone locked in an industrial safe without knowing the lock combination.

That has worked for me for 23 years as an IT Manager.

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LaDev@reddit

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. Too much and it's unhealthy just because you need to know how to disconnect.

I do the same thing. Jumping on a call doesn't really ruin a vacation. If anything it keeps me sane because I do enjoy the work I do.

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SirLoremIpsum@reddit

It is wrong.

0 work should get done during a vacation. None.

Any calls is too many calls.

As an expectation it is horrible.

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LaDev@reddit

I'll stand on my opinion here. There is nothing wrong with it.

Setting the expectation is wrong.

What I do with my time is my business. It's simple as that.

If I choose to completely be absent on vacation, my business. If I choose to hop on a call, my business. Simple as that.

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OregonTechHead@reddit

As an expectation it is horrible.

Agreed, but nothing OP said indicated this was the expectation.

Some people just love work. Or maybe she's on "vacation" with her family and is using the meeting as an excuse to get away for an hour.

We don't know, and why should anyone care?

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GuidoOfCanada@reddit

It sets a bad precedent for her staff. There may never be an expressed expectation, but how is some junior to know that this level of "dedication" isn't required from them?

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OregonTechHead@reddit

how is some junior to know that this level of "dedication" isn't required from them?

Ask?

I'm assuming they're also adults and are capable of setting boundaries

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eastamerica@reddit

You has no personal boundaries.

Beware of these people.

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kshot@reddit

I don't understand people who does this. Seems like some people have nothing in their life outside of work.

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MetalEnthusiast83@reddit

Sounds like she’s just a huge loser. There’s lot of people who have no identity outside of their jobs. It’s really pathetic that what you gonna do.

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Vodor1@reddit

I think too may people are thinking in 1’s and 0’s.
When the boss is on vacation, it’s also time away from them too which is needed. This doesn’t happen if they never bugger off properly.

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MetalEnthusiast83@reddit

Yeah I get stuff done on vacation. Fuck all of it has anything to do with my job.

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mixduptransistor@reddit

That is evidence of an unhealthy work environment. If you feel you can't get things done with your boss around, or feel like you need them to go on vacation even if you're still at work, there's something deeper going on you need to fix

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mazobob66@reddit

there's something deeper going on you need to fix

I really don't want to sound like an asshole here, but...how? I mean, saying "you just need to fix the workplace environment" comes across as one of those "feel good statements", but in reality they are impossible to do.

I say "impossible" because most unhealthy work environments are a result of poor management skills or personality flaws...coming from above. So that is not something "you can fix". Best you can do is try to talk to them about it, and hope they are mature enough to not retaliate. And is it your boss? Or your bosses boss? How far up does it go? This is not necessarily an easy conversation to have.

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mixduptransistor@reddit

The most common way to fix a bad workplace environment is to find another workplace. I know that's easier said than done, but it's also something you can work on while still remaining employed

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mazobob66@reddit

I think logically, it is probably easier because if it does not work out well, you not only lose your job but you also burn bridges. It sucks, because it is almost entirely on them to change, but by finding a new job you can be passive-aggressive about it.

I think in most cases a one-on-one with management will not work. It has to be a "mutiny" of sorts, with multiple making the claim. Otherwise, the natural thing that people do is to deflect/fight-back with counterpoints and what-about-you? If you AND your coworkers approach management, then it is much harder for them to deflect.

And going to HR is futile in many cases. They will be on the side of management. They will listen to what you say, nod along, and then say "well, what can you do to make things different?"...without even contemplating talking to your boss.

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Korlus@reddit

All workplaces benefit from having people not available because it makes people more confident in working when they aren't there. That's true for bosses and also just regular colleagues; I don't think it should be controversial.

The best way to make sure your team can operate without Critical Person A being present is making sure it operates just fine without them there... In a time when you can afford to fail (and not when they leave or are ill unexpectedly).

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jlmawp@reddit

My team loved my vacations because it was a vacation from me. I'm not an asshole or anything, but it's nice to be without a boss for a bit.

After expressing that I didn't want to abandon my team with problems while I was out, she responded with "Don't you think they would appreciate it if you trusted them to handle things while you're gone?"

Perspective.

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mustmax347@reddit

This is bad leadership, setting a bad example And expectation for her team.

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Nakenochny@reddit

Are you my coworker? My boss is the same.

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Animeninja2020@reddit

We had a boss that use to work on PTO and vacations, we finally decided that they needed a vacation so we just disable their VPN and SSO with a note to reenable when they got back.

They opened a ticket with IT requesting help with access. IT manager knew and replied on 9am the day they were back that they were able to help.

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ryoko227@reddit

Last place as the CTO, I deducted any and all time that I HAD to work from my PTO request to recoup lost time, or time diverted from my actual time away. Sometimes, the work just needs to get done, but I left that up to the tech's discretion. Also, told them to do the same in regards to their PTO request deductions. Not showing actual hours worked or what is required to actually perform the job is in essence, "lying/falsifying" to the company. It also completely borks the metrics, which means decisions being made further down the line are being made based on bad data. So, in my humble opinion, Do it right, do it once, log the time required.

That being said, I am a STANCH believer in, "your time is your time." and would not call a tech outside their working hours, unless: it was literal life and death, or we had arranged it prior to them going on leave.

You owe nothing to these companies, unless it's yours.

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SaltyUncleMike@reddit

In a previous role I was a director of several teams and I told people if they responded to anything but a emergency phone call I would disable their accounts. If you are working or on-call, youre not on vacation.

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rose_gold_glitter@reddit

Probably because, like me, she still has bosses of her own who apply pressure to her to do so. My boss outright told me that, as I'm a manager, it's expected I am always available. It got so bad I eventually refused go take leave at all and didn't take a single day in almost six years. In my country leave is 30 days a year and they accrue, so I decided if they're going to call me all day and act like I'm at work, I'm just going to stockpile them all until I leave and I get a massive payout. I literally sat at my home computer once with a bucket being sick because they wouldn't leave me alone. I lay in bed with a laptop with covid.

I genuinely, without a word of a lie, had to take my laptop with me into surgery so I had it when I woke from anaesthesia and had to take calls in recovery.

Here's how bad it is - I took a week off at Christmas at the start of my job and they sent 110 laptops to my house to on board, because "even though you're on leave your expected to be available as needed". I have a photo of fold out tables all over my house covered in laptops as I on boarded all of them in a single afternoon.

So yeah - if I take leave no one cares. They just give me work anyway. They just schedule meeting anyway. And if I don't do them the work piles up to impossible levels and every acts like I killed their pet.

Now I know people are going to say "so leave" but it's not that easy. I'm nearly fifty and I'm female. No one even looks at my resume.

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Trust_8067@reddit

Her vacation is not your vacation. Get to work, maggots!

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Malbushim@reddit

It took my boss finding out he has stage 3 liver cancer to get him to stop doing this shit, and he will still do this shit. Log into teams from his phone and check in and whatnot.

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Decantus@reddit

My boss is a workaholic and does this from time to time. He has made it clear that there is zero expectation on us to do the same when we take PTO. Because of that, we all do our best to not reach out to him with anything unless it's it's P1 that can't wait.

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asodfhgiqowgrq2piwhy@reddit

I casually bully people on my team if I see them even REMOTELY active during a period they took off for PTO.

I turn all my shit off on PTO and I expect them to do the same.

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OBPing@reddit

If your boss insist on doing that, then what I would do is just make it so that it’s the longest meeting ever. Just maliciously comply and use this opportunity to ruin his day they insist on doing it this way

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TheBigBeardedGeek@reddit

At my last job we had a boss like that. I asked him if he's setting that expectation for us (he was a good boss, I knew the answer)

He was like "no! No! Never! Take your PTO!"

So I told him then he needs to lead by example. And if he doesn't, I'm disabling his account when he's on PTO

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Cas_Rs@reddit

I read somewhere that it’s a massive red flag if managers, especially at C level never take their vacations. It’s apparently a sign that they are doing something illegal. Either for the sake of the company or they are straight up stealing from the company. Makes you wonder

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spazmo_warrior@reddit

touch grass

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cowprince@reddit

We have a weekly meeting in my department and I jokingly join from wherever I'm at just to be disruptive when I'm on vacation.

I'm in the US Midwest and joined while on vacation in Iceland right next to the Skogafoss waterfall.

My boss cracks up every time and usually asks what the hell is wrong with me.

They get disappointed and concerned now if I don't.

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sprucecone@reddit

I had a boss like that. Would work on her “vacations” until 7:30 pm every day. Come to every scheduled meeting on vacation. Was a total work martyr too, always complaining how overloaded she was but never could hand any meaningful work over. Thought she was IT bc she was a database super user but had no real admin privileges (didn’t know what an admin account was tbh). Would get concepts mixed up and correct people for knowing things correctly, using her incorrect interpretation to brow beat people. She was also oversharibg all the time the most uncomfortable subjects, and would gossip about people the moment they walked out the door. I strongly believe she had OCPD and other mental health issues undiagnosed.

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TacodWheel@reddit

Seems goofy to me, but as long as there’s no expectation for me to do the same, they can do whatever they want. When I’m off the clock I’m generally unreachable.

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TaxHazyShade@reddit

This. All of my managers reply to emails or even IMs when on vacation. I never do. They've never called me out on it because (I think) they know I work my ass off when i'm at work.

Probably why i've not been promoted but the hell with it. I only have so many hours on this planet, and i don't want to trade any more of them for money than i have to.

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trouphaz@reddit

It is such a bad example. Show your team that they should take time off and recharge. Show your team that we should have redundancy so if something needs to happen, someone else can keep things moving in your absence. Stop making people feel bad about taking time off.

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SayNoToStim@reddit

How high on the chain is your boss? If they are the CTO that's kind of expected

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leprechanmonkie@reddit

It's not your vacation, not sure what you are upset about. I do some work while on my vacation pretty much every time. It's inevitable because I am a 1 person team that delivers lots of high value contracts with tight SLAs. If a quick 30 minute call on vacation saves me 4 hours of a nightmare when I get back, I'll take the call. I've never felt pressured to, but prefer to keep things moving along when I'm out.

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GuidoOfCanada@reddit

Does the company give you a little pat on the head for your time? I've been a 1-person department at previous gigs and could take 2 weeks off (usually) without any major issues when I came back. If there were bigger problems the management understood that was a risk they took because they wouldn't pay for more redundancy (staff or systems).

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leprechanmonkie@reddit

I don't get pats on the head but I can probably ask for one. My salary has tripled since I've been with the company, I get unlimited PTO and usually take about 20-30 days per year. I work from home on a flexible schedule all year. So yeah, if I have to take a quick call on vacation to make my life easier when I return, I'm game. My company doesn't ask me to do it, I do it because it helps me. All I'm saying is, that's my choice.

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z_agent@reddit

Dam, I sometimes miss meetings when I am actually working.....

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ChabotJ@reddit

It blows my mind when I get a call/text from someone that they can't login because they are out of the country on vacation. Like enjoy your vacation stop trying to work.

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johnno88888@reddit

My manager does the same.

Goes to NYC- tells us how much he had a good time when on an hours call Goes to Tokyo- ditto

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anomalous_cowherd@reddit

I wonder if she's saying that she had to do some work on those days so they don't count as PTO days?

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Haplo12345@reddit

Report her to HR. She's working, so she legally has to be compensated. If she has to be compensated, her vacation PTO has to be canceled, and she's going to be expected to be working the full day.

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logicallyinsane@reddit

We used to lock accounts of people who go on vacation for more than 3 days for this very reason. It's not called vacation if you're working and makes everyone else look bad who actually takes real vacations.

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Bodycount9@reddit

my direct boss was off on PTO for the day.. the IT director came over and saw all of us at our desks which is rare and said "Your boss must be on PTO since you're all here and not on PTO". we had a good laugh for that one.

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ScreamingVoid14@reddit

HR came to IT at one point to ask if we had any objections to someone working while in the hospital. The sick person had asked to use the hospital wifi for work. To be fair, I'm pretty sure HR was fishing for a reason to say "no."

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KandevDev@reddit

the boss-on-vacation-still-working pattern is a signal she does not trust her team. she has not built the delegation muscle, so "vacation" just means "less interruption while i do the same job". it is bad for her, bad for the team, and the only fix is her own realization. you cannot force someone to actually take a break.

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DariusWolfe@reddit

Oof. That's a culture red flag right there. Maybe make sure your resume is updated and polished, so you're ready to jump ship if the red flags start becoming red carpets.

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JerkyChew@reddit

This sets a bad precedent and is akin to bullying. Good leaders lead by example. This boss is implying - intentionally or not - that you need to be available even if you're out of the office.

It's the foundation for a toxic work environment.

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mtnfreek@reddit

Gotta think I set a good example as a Sr VP at a big tech company. When I went on vacation I was invisible. Why? I hired people I could trust! No better team building exercise….trust your team.

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reactor4@reddit

That's stupid. No one will remember her "sacrifices".

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mtnfreek@reddit

That’s nuts 🌰 cutoff her accounts!

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NSFW_IT_Account@reddit

she

there's your issue lol

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mixduptransistor@reddit

Why? It's her vacation. As long as she isn't expecting you to do the same when you're out on PTO why does it matter?

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_Born_To_Be_Mild_@reddit

Maybe it creates pressure or an expectation for them to do the same.

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LucasRaymondGOAT@reddit

This is a legitimate thing for sure. I’ve worked for companies where the leadership look down on you if you don’t answer emails on the weekends or you refuse to go to work outings etc. as much as people like to say ‘work somewhere else’ the reality is you don’t know what one of these places really is until you work there.

Establishing work/life balance kinda makes you have a target on your back too. So, there’s no winning, the only option is finding a new job which is becoming increasingly difficult for people to do.

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_Born_To_Be_Mild_@reddit

Fuck those people, that's a them problem.

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user1390027478@reddit

That’s up to the employees to manage.

I’m clear with my guys that they aren’t to be working while they’re on vacation - don’t check email, don’t answer your phone, and so on and so forth.

However, that isn’t an option available to me from the org. It’s part and parcel of being a manager. I can’t really make their discomfort with the obligations I have go away, I can only manage my expectations of them.

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_Born_To_Be_Mild_@reddit

You're clear, that good 👍

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SpaceChimps98@reddit

Surely it does.

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mixduptransistor@reddit

I mean that's why I said "as long as she isn't expecting you to do the same"

I get stuff from leadership in my company all the time when they're on vacation or PTO or off work, but they also don't ask me to do things when I'm off work.

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SirLoremIpsum@reddit

Why? It's her vacation. As long as she isn't expecting you to do the same when you're out on PTO why does it matter?

Because managers set the standard by their behaviour and if the manager is doing this is sets the expectations that you do this.

It shows an unhealthy team

It's dumb. By association your manager is dumb and their manager is dumb by allowing it.

This is common among executives

Doesn't make it any less utterly ridiculous.. It's time off!!!! The reason for existing.

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learn_and_learn@reddit

She perpetuates that culture

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mixduptransistor@reddit

Not necessarily, this happens in my company but I also have zero pressure to do the same

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SergioSF@reddit

Youre not going to make a micromanager do anything. Let the person get burnt out, feel like they are going the extra mile. They are invested in the mission.

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Otto-Korrect@reddit

We have meetings we have specifically NOT invited the 'boss' to. They know nothing about IT and we just have to explain things to her constantly.

Unfortunately, she just likes to 'pop in', then ends up running the meeting. I've told her straight up how disruptive this is after subtle hints didn't do it. That worked... for a few weeks.

We went as far an creating an entirely new meeting every week just to have time to ourselves. The clock is ticking to see how long until she 'drops in' on this one. I seriously suggested we put an access code on the Teams invites.

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skiitifyoucan@reddit

we have people who do this who aren't even managers.

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SpaceChimps98@reddit

I get upset when someone calls us out of the blue that they're on vacation in the Netherlands or something at 4AM that they can't get connected. The policy is if you're traveling, you need to contact IT ahead of time so we can schedule to open the firewall traffic for that location for the duration of your vacation. But apparently they didn't think to tell us and now they can't check their emails.

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Lazy-Function-4709@reddit

My boss will go on "vacation" and randomly pop in during his time off for periods of time ranging from 30 seconds to 20 minutes. It creeps me out.

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razorback6981@reddit

I am not a fan of bosses not fully enjoying or taking advantage of their vacations. It’s not a good thing. Everyone needs to fully step away for a while, especially in this shit show of an industry.

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jsfarmer@reddit

This is a terrible work culture. Leave.

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YellowYarrowYucca@reddit

I swear my boss works 2x harder on vacations and it stresses us out so much more than if they were there.

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TehH4rRy@reddit

My boss is the same, he takes leave but is always on teams, replying to alerts before we see them. At least he's not on meetings. Drives us all mad and sets the expectation were always available even when on Oncall. I refuse and turn my phone off when I'm off.

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Sroni4967@reddit

thats not a vacation thats wifi at the beach

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TipIll3652@reddit

Can't stand this, I used to have a boss who would do it. Like dang dude piss off, we got this shit.

Now I show up to work and my boss doesn't even let anyone know that he won't be in lol. Couple hours go by and someone asks where he's at, we just shrug and say I guess he took off.

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evileagle@reddit

If your name isn’t on the sign outside the building, then the company doesn’t deserve this kind of dedication from you. Full stop. Everyone outside of ownership is a replaceable number on a balance sheet somewhere. Treat your job in kind.

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scottct1@reddit

Oh you work for my boss huh? 😄

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defiantleek@reddit

I've repeatedly enforced people's PTO boundaries when they won't do it themselves including with my boss. If they message me about trivial things I'll ask if this can wait until they're back off PTO? I've made it clear to them that my manager prioritizing their time away from work when they are AWAY FROM WORK is a necessity for them to recharge & to show the staff that work life balance is something we strive for universally.

I'm not going to suggest that my boss doesn't have necessary meetings to attend while on Vacation, but I really try and enforce that their life outside of work matters, because they won't do it themselves.

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