The first Roma school was established in Kosovo. Do you think that referring to this people by their true ethnic name influences their social development?
Posted by Double-Aide-6711@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 40 comments
RevolutionaryFeed259@reddit
From my experience, in case of Serbia, no. Assimilated, law abiding, fixed-dwelling living people call themselves Cigani (Gypsy), while they call Roma those of the same origin who aren't assimilated, prefer to live nomadically, have their own social structures (king/knez) and speak Romani instead of Serbian, follow their religion (Hinduism?) instead of Christianity.
Sure, there's overlap, Roma can speak Serbian, can settle in urban areas and because of some political correctness they've been all rebranded to Roma nowadays, but they make a distinction among themselves and key part of it being the name.
Source: My Gypsy acquaintance (Serbian name and surname, Christian, living in fixed-dwelling, law abiding, respectful, hardworking, etc)
kiefzz@reddit
Your source sucks compared to mine, considering my wife is Roma. She'd rightfully tell you the other term is a derogotary slur.
RevolutionaryFeed259@reddit
Here's another 2:
- A working woman (not stating profession, but legal and legitimate), smoking on a break, small talking with me about her neighbourhood, houses, growing up, working experience... all the while using term Cigani for themselves. Never mentioning anything Roma-related. Neither me asking her questions which would lead to it.
- A couple making out in public transport. Talking sweet nothings to each other (in Serbian), me trying to ignore them and I did until the last moment, when she said something, I can't remember what, to which he recoiled and said something like "I'm not Roma/I don't speak Romani, I'm Gypsy/I speak Gypsy"
Which makes me think that the matter of identity is fluid one. 2 people of same origin using 2 different names for themselves, strongly identifying with each and being opposed to the other one.
I'm not stating my perspective is objective truth, if it can be in cases of identity, I'm just sharing my perspective. I'm nobody to tell them how they should identify. But I think it's not about whether the word or name is politically correct or not, it's about the attitude and tone behind what's being said carries indifference, love or hate. One can use Rom and make a grimace. You have plenty of examples of that in country of your origin.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Let me tell you what I think of these people: they seek to distinguish themselves by making the word "Gypsy" a trendy and distinctive characteristic.
That's what Šaban Bajramović did, and more recently, the famous Roma artist Azis did it too, but in the music industry, in order to maintain a strong artistic image.
Sometimes, these are people who scoff at their identity but desperately yearn to be part of Serbian society; so, of course, they call themselves "Gypsies in Serbian," but these are the same people who end up losing their language and accepting mediocrity
in Tito's Yugoslavia. It was those who called themselves Roma who ended up at the University of Belgrade, not the other way around.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
What does it really mean to live a nomadic lifestyle? The majority of Romani people have been sedentary for several centuries.
As for Hinduism, that’s the first time I’ve heard of it. In Serbia, most Romani people speak both languages, and some even speak only Serbian.
I have an aunt in Niš. The only distinction I’ve noticed is that there are groups such as the Ashkali and Romani, and some Romani people who only speak Serbian.
This is not necessarily a matter of integration, but rather, in some cases, a gradual loss of language and certain cultural elements, often due to internal factors rather than a deliberate process of assimilation.
RevolutionaryFeed259@reddit
Čerga lifestyle. The "alternative" ways of earning living. The views against schools and social integration. The relationship with hygiene. That's the impression I have from those I know who call themselves Gypsy, that they have about those they know who call themselves Roma.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
You are quite contradictory. The Čergash way of life, as you call it, comes from a Roma group that defines itself as Gypsy, and to say that it earns its living any other way is often perceived as an insult by Roma among themselves.
You are not really a reliable source, as another commenter has already said.
Budget-Community-982@reddit
We can't establish a school for gypsies children in Romania because the Universal Gipsy language doesn't exist, the gypsies from Romania are bilingual, they speak (and some even write) in Romanian but they also speak their own tribal language, which varies greatly depending on their occupation, caste, or region. For example, the gypsies in the Bucharest region speak a different language from those in the village of Glod (at 100km distance, where the movie “Borat” was filmed).
https://i.redd.it/cm6beesk991h1.gif
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Please explain what a tribal language is and how Romani is a tribal language ?
It can easily be standardized regionally, as is the case here.
Budget-Community-982@reddit
A tribal language is a language spoken only by members of the same community (village, neighborhood, valley). By standardizing the Gypsy language, they are effectively forcing the dominant tribe’s language to be used by the smaller tribes. Everything goes smoothly until they lose their leadership, at which point the second tribe will take power and impose its own language.
And please, stop using the word “Romani” instead of “Gypsy.” In Romania, we have Gypsy Kings (yeah, like the Spanish band; after the original Gypsy King died in 1997, he left his crown to be worn by his sons, all together), a Gypsy Emperor, and also a Gypsy President—they call themselves Gypsies, not Romani.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
You look really stupid but sneaky at the same time. A tribal language, that’s not it, lmao.
Haven’t you noticed there’s a correlation between the Roma who mostly call themselves Gypsies? That’s the case in Romania. They trash you because they were completely conditioned during slavery, to put it that way. You made them irresponsible. And I don’t need to explain things, you can see it for yourself: in Western Europe, the problematic Roma are mostly those from Romania. They even tarnish the image of other Roma. It’s not those from Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, or Macedonia who cause problems, but every time it’s your Roma.
I am Roma, it’s connected to my language. “Gypsy” is for me an unknown, discriminatory term that doesn’t reflect who I am at all. It’s used to give me a card to explain my irresponsible behavior, especially to gadjos (non-Romani).
https://www.romarchive.eu/en/terms/gadjo-das-gor/
The Romani in Spain were originally often referred to as “Egyptians.” Later, during the process of forced assimilation, the term “Gitano
Recent years, however, many have been reclaiming their Romanipe again.
Tiktok Link :
determine96@reddit
Don't get this about the name..
In Bulgaria many Romanis still called themselves Gypsies for example.
And I don't see how this affects their social development ?
I guess you mean that gypsies is the offensive term, so when you refering them like that you stigmatize them, marginalize them and such so they wouldn't fell accepted in the society
But again in Bulgaria this isn't the case for everyone.
The offensive word here is "mangal" for a gypsy and gypsy can be instulting because some part of the population have prejudices against the Roma population.
So even the word Roma for those people will be associated with the same.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
No, I assure you it is not the same thing.
“Roma” is our ethnic name, tied to our language and identity.
The feeling of discrimination and exclusion is often less severe when people use the term “Roma.” By contrast, the word “gypsy” often carries negative connotations and stereotypes; every negative association with that term literally counts double, because it further reinforces the vicious cycle of exclusion and stagnation.
I even think that using the word “gypsy” makes people less accountable. It disconnects them from who they really are, so naturally they pay less attention to what they are being criticized for.
Vdd666@reddit
No. They prefer to be called gypsies. I asked quite a few around Romania when I had the chance.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
No, where you're from he prefers to be called Romanian 😄.
Vdd666@reddit
Oh really? Why don't you come and ask yourself?
Early-Show2886@reddit
Oh, please—you can't lump all Roma groups together.
There are Roma, and then there are Roma! (If you catch my drift.) There are Roma who, as far back as the era of the Ottoman Empire, had already become completely assimilated into Turkish culture. Not all Roma live in their own mahala (neighborhoods) or are nomads. There are descendants of Turks with Roma ancestry who lived perfectly normal lives in villages and cities—doing so as early as the final days of the Ottoman Empire.
This often came about through so-called Roma women who were Çengiye (dancers). These women frequently served as the secondary wives of wealthy Muslim Beys (both Albanians and Turks). Their descendants subsequently intermarried frequently. Consequently, there are Turks and Albanians of Roma descent—though they are no longer Roma themselves. While one can still discern their Roma ancestry in their physical appearance, that is the extent of it; they no longer observe any Roma traditions. Jokingly, they are referred to as Melezi (Mixes). Most of them—indeed, virtually all—deny having any Roma ancestry.
About the cengies: https://globalhistorydialogues.org/stories/the-lives-of-albanian-cengies
WhisperingHammer@reddit
For my understanding, was this a school only focused on studies in the romani language in itself?
Dear_Wrongdoer7271@reddit
Because calling them Gypsies will really help their social development?
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Roma is a city in Italy.
These people are from area that used to be called Baluchistan in border areas of modern Iran and pakistan.
Senor-Marston389@reddit
They named an entire city after gypsies?
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Were you just born yesterday? That's a homonym
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Leviticus 20 13
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Yes, yes, Bayer Leverkusen too.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Duvaj ga bre nekulturni seronjo. Ti ces meni, ja sam odrasto u ciganmali nije nikad i nikad nece biti Roma mala. Kurafte dafte ta mindja.
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Yes, I'll change my language just to agree with you, marš cergari
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Napusi se majmune nekulturni. Pokenjam ti se na EU i francusku i kolevku odakle si izgmizo...
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
Your knowledge is limited, and it won't increase by staying with people who don't understand that their name is first and foremost Roma.
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
Da Bog da imo pa nemo.
Inner_Variety2826@reddit
I thought it was a team
Early-Show2886@reddit
hhhh you funny :)
Wild_cmpt6406@reddit
no you 🤡
Substratas@reddit
I consider people of Romani background (or anyone of a different ethnicity) who were born & raised in Albania as Albanians - unless they want to be referred to as something else.
I don’t like making people feel excluded.
alkorisno@reddit
To be honest, in capitalism money is the main factor fro social development, as everything else
bleta_punetore@reddit
A little bit unrelated but, once in a Zagreb Hotel hall(was hanging there because of bad internet in the room), had nearby a group of Roma people from different Balkan countries, probably related to each other. It was amazing to hear them switch from one language to another mid conversation and all the languages they spoke to me sounded fairly fluid. Serbo-Croatian, Romanian, Albanian, Italian and probably sth else in between as well. Also the people in this video speak Albanian better than most 😅
Early-Show2886@reddit
sponsored by evangelicals?
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
It’s just that this school was created in cooperation with Roma people from Albania, but the name doesn’t really mean anything to most Roma from Kosovo or Albania. It’s not something that will necessarily affect your religion.
Early-Show2886@reddit
ya this is completely different from north macedonia or turkey ...
i dont know...Look roma from north macedonia...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdT3ZLwe3VA
Double-Aide-6711@reddit (OP)
In North Macedonia, Muslim Roma have often sought to distinguish themselves from Christian Roma through naming, whereas in Kosovo and Albania, Roma in general usually place much less importance on that kind of distinction there are even Muslim Roma named Kastriot, lmao.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Yes, neither in turkey the muslim roma so religious like those from North Macedonia. Its very interesting to see all the differenses.