FAA adding transponders to all its airport vehicles after Air Canada plane's deadly LaGuardia runway crash
Posted by nornalplacard@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 75 comments
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/transponders-airport-vehicles-air-canada-laguardia-crash-9.7198540
flecom@reddit
I applaude them leading the way but an FAA vehicle wasn't involved in the accident?
Airport vehicles need to add them and that's a lot of vehicles adding a lot of very expensive transponders
ScaryFro@reddit
The thought of slapping a transponder on a Tug from the 90s is cracking me up. Ground service vehicles are the most abused and infrequently replaced things at any airport. Transponder might cost more than an old baggage cart tug!
C4-621-Raven@reddit
It’s only going on stuff that actually drives on controlled surfaces. Bag tractors won’t be getting it.
fly_awayyy@reddit
Why would a bag tractor need it? They don’t go to movement areas. Shit my airport authority gives you another endorsement to even drive on a movement area for obvious reasons.
Great_Specialist_267@reddit
Bag tractors by definition operate on movement areas. Where do you think the planes the bags go in are?
fly_awayyy@reddit
Alright fam come on over to MWAA the airport authority that oversees IAD/DCA their badging and credentialing office is open to walk ins. Tell them their coursework and certification was wrong. Talk with the airport administrator too and give them an education because they sure don’t call that areas bag tugs operate on “movement areas.” Movement area is taxiways, and runways…
railker@reddit
Arguably depends on the airport, worked at one where we'd drive a tug, belt loader, and one of these slow fat fucks across a runway every day to get equipment and personnel to the cargo apron and service a plane. Had one person with a radio licensed for movement areas and like the firetrucks in LGA, just called up as 'XXX Mobile plus three'.
Granted it was an "international" but not a large, busy airport.
desthc@reddit
Wouldn’t it make sense to just require a lead vehicle escort that has a transponder when navigating movement areas? Then you don’t have to add it to everything, but anything moving at least has a transponder moving with it.
ScaryFro@reddit
If you do that then you're waiting for the day when your escort vehicle won't start and has to go to the shop for the day. Now you can't move any equipment around the field.
The solution will be cheap transponders or it'll never happen. Used to drive a 1960s, military surplus, Ford de-ice truck that didn't have a working heater in it. I was told by management that it's not necessary to operate the truck. It was -19F outside that day. Point being that ground equipment is not a priority for operators, safely related or not.
ScaryFro@reddit
Worked at 3 airports and at all 3 I drove a range of ramp vehicles in movement areas, you only need a radio and a beacon generally.
Driving a K-Loader in the winter was a motivating factor to leave ramp work.
Great_Specialist_267@reddit
My plane from the 1960’s has a transponder (fitted in the 1970’s).
Tight-Soil4085@reddit
I am sick of hearing about the COST of saving lives. Money isn’t everything people wake the fuck up
subguru@reddit
I don't assume these are super expensive. Does anyone know what sort of transponder they need and how much they cost? The fire truck had to be half a Million or so. I can't image a $1k transponder (if its even that much) would break the bank.
Also I'm pretty sure don't cross runways, at least very often.
VF99@reddit
UAvionix has a vehicle system listed on their site but it's "call us" pricing. https://uavionix.com/airports-and-atm/vtu-20/
Their skybeacon systems to add ADSB to a plane by replacing one of the navigation lights are ~$2,000.
quesarah@reddit
Those are intended to augment an existing mode-C alt encoding transponder.
Practically, this seems like a perfect application for a cheap UAT vehicle ADS-B, but skybeacon isn't it.
VF99@reddit
Just trying to give an idea of their prices on a shipping product that's close to the same function.
You could generate the signal yourself with a sub-$200 software defined radio module and a few other parts, but that's not a packaged certified product you're going to bolt onto every firetruck at LGA.
time-lord@reddit
I think it's ADS-B receivers that are like $50 for a raspberry pi. It'd obviously not a shipping product, but that's about the cost of the raw hardware.
quesarah@reddit
Yes. Look up 'stratux', a generic rpi version of the stratus adsb receiver. I built one but found it impractical. Fragile, ran hot, and so drained batteries quickly.
VF99@reddit
A SDR that is capable of transmitting is generally more expensive than you'd use for a home (only) receiver.
quesarah@reddit
Fair enough. There are low power varieties intended for uav & light aircraft, especially in Europe.
The FAA has not made affordability a priority for off-markets like GA. You're looking at >$3k for an adsb box with GPS. Worth it for something driving across runways.
railker@reddit
There was an older article from 2012 I was reading talking about it looking for a price for some of these units, mentioned "a number of surface vehicle ADS-B transmitters using 1090 ES have been approved and introduced at airports in several countries, but these are not compliant with U.S. specifications" and so can't be used.
Sensis (now bought by Saab) seems to be one of the options, NAV Canada in a 2008 news release mentions selecting them for vehicle tracking in Montreal and existing widespread use in airports across Canada, noting its improvement in tracking through the various blindspots that radar can have.
18 years ago.
bem13@reddit
Someone call them and ask about getting a single unit, then post the offer here lol
22Planeguy@reddit
I see a lot of people talking about cost, but I don't really get it. One vehicle mounted transponder is going to cost... a few grand? as a high estimate. There's MAYBE a hundred vehicles at an airport that go near a runway? Even with what I would imagine are very high estimates, it would cost less than a million dollars in hardware, and even if you double it after labor costs to install, that's still only a couple mil per airport. The *one* crash cost two irreplaceable lives, somewhere between $3 and $20 million for the jet, and whatever the lost profits are from the people who won't fly because of a high profile crash.
I'm honestly surprised this wasn't already a requirement.
thundergun67@reddit
Wair till you hear about adsb transponders being slapped on cessnas from the 70s
penelopiecruise@reddit
who cares about the relative cost of the device vs what it's mounted on, it's the cost of a potential accident that rationalizes the expenditure.
skunimatrix@reddit
Lawyers are expensive.
JazznBlues_lover@reddit
And so are the payouts from lawsuits arising from such horrific accidents.
Cel_Drow@reddit
Exactly this. I work in the tracking stuff industry as a consultant (not to get too specific, it’s a pretty small space) and the return on investment is in avoiding really costly accidents, not the dollar value of what you’re tracking.
Ferrous_Patella@reddit
Can they put out a non-TSO’ed transponder just for ground vehicles that would cost a lot less?
skunimatrix@reddit
Since it operates on an Airport I'm sure the answer is probably no. Because Airport. I mean we had aftermarket GPS kits on our old John Deere tractors and they were $3500ish (IIRC it's been about 15 years ago when we bought them). I'm sure there are much cheaper options out there these days. Hell probably run off an iPad too.
zymurginian@reddit
Poorly written headline
SlothSpeed@reddit
Tugs aren't going to be crossing though.
railker@reddit
Can't speak for LGA but tugs cross runways every day in other airports. And they all have transponders whether crossing or not. Got maintenance hangars on the other side of runways from terminals aircraft need towing to/from.
Even the wildlife vehicles have transponders.
austinh1999@reddit
Its not because the vehicle it is on is special, its because that vehicle has the ability to cause much more expensive damage to another vehicle up to the point of lives. But it really only applies to vehicle in the movement area and I have yet to see a runway baggage service
CaptainAurelien@reddit
Always reactive, never proactive. Really? Is that how things should be?
gretafour@reddit
Would transponders have even prevented the Jazz accident though?
desthc@reddit
It doesn’t need the be a silver bullet to be an improvement. Limiting the ability to make mistakes is a good thing. No single solution is ever going to solve everything, but incremental improvements in multiple areas adds up to a big improvement.
CerebralAccountant@reddit
Not by themselves. The lack of vehicle transponders was a major point of failure for a portion of the accident sequence (lack of ASDE-X alerts), but not a single point of failure for the entire sequence.
If the vehicles had transponders, ASDE-X still needed to recognize the threat and issue an alert (would it?), the truck needed to receive the alert via ATC or extra equipment in their cab (would they? we know there were radio communication issues), and the driver needed to slow or stop the truck (would they? they already ran through the runway entry lights without even slowing down).
Raydekal@reddit
I drive a vehicle that uses a transponder as its an airport requirement. There is no safety systems built in to the vehicle, it's a way for Ground to see vehicles on their radars to know precise locations in relation to everything else.
It may have helped this particular ground controller see where the vehicles are at a glance instead of relying on radio comms and trust only. But as you said, it's a weak link in the chain of safety, but not the only one.
Ajanu11@reddit
I think the primary contributor was the driver not stopping at red lights and assuming the controller was right to clear them.
BackgroundGrade@reddit
Remember folks: we do not transponders certified for flight for this. This should make them less expensive.
Even a few million dollar investment at an airport, like LaGuardia, is peanuts in the big picture.
The interesting question is if the FAA/DOT and other authorities will mandate it.
greasyspider@reddit
Not sure how that will help? A transponder will not override permission from atc to cross a runway
Jazzlike_Climate4189@reddit
Read the article, they are vehicle position indicators for the ASDE-X system.
Ruepic@reddit
Man every time I see the accident photos I can't stop thinking about the pilots.
DougalisGod@reddit
I’m sure that the pilot’s family would have understood based on the cost for the port authority to have a transponder on that fire truck. Jesus people.
ImaginationSea2767@reddit
Rules and laws are written in blood. I have done aircraft deicing courses and a lot of the material and rules are written the way they are because of previous events. Things normally dont change until something major happens, people hate change.
Klutzy-Residen@reddit
I find that saying so incredibly annoying as it implies/confirms that a lot of obvious measures are not taken before lives are lost. This being one of them.
SuppliceVI@reddit
Silver lining is that it was quick.
Quicker than honestly most of us will experience.
GuttedFlower@reddit
It's sad that these kinds of changes are always written in blood.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
It’s even more irritating because I have told my supervisors and managers about severe safety items. They are dismissive to the point of being upset I tell them about safety items. There needs to be an honest system that cares about safety…not just NTSB hearings that slaps the FAA on the wrist.
Williama386@reddit
But the shareholders!!! /s
WildwestPstyle@reddit
Does your company not have a reporting system? From my experience verbal reporting will most likely be ignored and at best fixed temporarily. You need a paper trail for anything safety related to take serious. Or if it’s really severe than disclose directly to the FAA.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
I forgot what sub I was on. Let’s just say I thought I was on ATC.
PROPGUNONE@reddit
All of its vehicles… sure.
Every OPS vehicle, firetruck, and cop car that has access to the movement area? Nope. This is making a statement that sounds like it solves a problem without solving a problem.
hacourt@reddit
This sounds good but would that have prevented the incident in question? Genuinly curious. Since the truck was given the go to cross and the tower knew where they were.
railker@reddit
Awareness of the conflict is what could've been improved. The system saw the plane (so the RELs were on) but not the truck, so it couldn't alert ATC, who was only aware of the truck and not the plane. It was a matter of seconds though, and I'm not sure just how early ASDE-X would alert once the trick started moving.
pilotshashi@reddit
ASDE-X
railker@reddit
has been at Laguardia in some form for over 25 years.
Mderose@reddit
Good first step. Makes sense.
Iggy0075@reddit
I had a professor back at erau in 2007/2008 who called it Blood Priority (aviation law professor). Shit doesn't happen until blood is spilled.
kaielias@reddit
Only took an accident
News-Royal@reddit
Red means stop. Pretty simple.
WildwestPstyle@reddit
Why is the solution always something that doesn’t even address the cause of the issue? The controller was aware of where “truck 1 and company” was. The aircraft he forgot about had a transponder. The issue was the controller was over burdened and over worked. A transponder on the truck wouldn’t have changed a thing.
shrunkenhead041@reddit
But it allows political cover.
For all the money this government throws away, it is baffling that the ATC staffing issue has been back-burnered for so long. It is a problem that would would take 7 to 10 years to solve, if we started today.
railker@reddit
What it would have fixed is that ASDE didn't alert the controller to the potential collision as it didn't know where the truck was or that it was even there. That collision alert would've been the conflict alert the controller needed to act sooner on a scenario he didn't perceive.
1320Fastback@reddit
Now they just need to automate the braking systems of all vehicles because if the driver isn't listening, misses a call or is distracted nothing will change.
Maybe something like a Monster Trucks Ignition Interruptor where the tower can stop a truck themselves.
fly_awayyy@reddit
Honestly a start is to feed camera or other sensor stuff into AI to create and anticipate alerts.
agent_steve@reddit
You are basically describing RWSL system and those lights were illuminated red and the truck proceeded across anyway in the Jazz accident.
fly_awayyy@reddit
It’s been announced too with the DEN frontier incident they have cameras that monitor for intruders and the person did set them off they just didn’t know if it was wildlife. But yes putting camera feed into RSWL and other technology to approach it from all ends is totally doable.
zone_of-danger@reddit
Gonna get an RA while being pushed back…
Neither-Way-4889@reddit
RAs don't trigger on the ground
zone_of-danger@reddit
No shit…
coder7426@reddit
Have stop lights with interlocks been considered?
-burnr-@reddit
Tombstone Technology. ☠️
post-explainer@reddit
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