Supreme Court Broker Liability

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freedom_seed5-45x39@reddit

About time. These A holes need to pay for all of the shady crap they been pulling for years.

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KnowledgeHonest9109@reddit

Ok I’m an idiot. I read the article, or tried to read it, but I don’t understand what this means. Would someone mind explaining it to me in simple terms?

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In the past brokers were shielded from lawsuits in the cases where a driver they contracted to haul a load caused an accident that injured or killed someone. In the past they could only sue the driver.

Brokers would hire the cheapest drivers, underpaying, drivers run illegal in substandard equipment, stuff like that. So they weren’t vetting the quality of the drivers they gave loads to.

The SCOTUS ruling changes that. So if some company has a broker to move a load, and that broker hires some shady fly by night company with a lousy safety record, and they kill someone, the broker can be sued. It puts an obligation on the broker to contract loads responsibility and not just dump them onto some horrible driver who shouldn’t be on the road.

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Brs76@reddit

Yeah, but shouldn't the ENTIRE onus fall on the trucking company itself to hire responsible drivers? Its almost like the broker is partially being blamed because the trucking companies aren't vetting their drivers enough.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

There are over 580,000 trucking companies and over 70% are single truck operations. Over 90% are ten trucks or less. The majors seem to mostly have decent safety standards (although they still hire bad drivers). They’ll fire a bad driver after an incident.

But those small outfits are probably over-represented in the lousy category. It’s where Chameleon carriers live and they often really have no hiring standards. A single truck operation doesn’t have the ability to fire the bad driver. They’re the whole company.

https://www.trucking.org/economics-and-industry-data

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Brs76@reddit

Ok. So from this point forward, if I hear about another accident involving a immigrant (illegal ) truck driver killing an American motorist, i can solely blame the trucking company?

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highdiver_2000@reddit

This goes against the whole concept of outsourcing and subcontracting?

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PlymouthSea@reddit

That's a good thing. Just look at any industry with an overabundance of middlemen, outsourcing, and subcontracting. New home builds are absolute garbage build quality (to the point of being safety issues). Seeing the same issue in Transport.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I view it as introducing the concept of outsourcing responsibly. I’ll compare it to healthcare. A hospital is short on nurses. They contact a contract company to get staff. The contract company vets the nurses they place in the hospital. In a way the contract company is like a broker in that they’re taking people and putting them in a location.

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KnowledgeHonest9109@reddit

Appreciate it, friend. I understand it now, thank you!

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jackdaniel2000@reddit

SCOTUS actually doing something good? Am I dreaming?

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daemonescanem@reddit

Even if it curtails ghost carriers, that only gives the megas more loads.

Im not saying ghost carrier's being put out of business is bad, but megas arent much better.

Megas have to much influence on drivers prevailing wage as it is. To much money to astro-turf for more drivers, that we dont need.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

I'm already seeing a new wave of fraudulent claims of driver shortages on local news segments in certain regions.

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daemonescanem@reddit

Im 25 years in, and every year they claim a driver shortage.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

Every industry does this. Healthcare did, Tech did, etc.

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hercdriver4665@reddit

They have lots of unanimous decisions. It’s only the politically divisive decisions that make the national news.

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RainierCamino@reddit

politically divisive decisions

That's a nice way of saying fucking people out of their rights and approving of concentration camps.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

A broken clock is right twice a day. The other 1438 minutes in a day…. 😂

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RPS93@reddit

Terrible ruling. I get this is a trucking subreddit, and therefore the truckers who are more reliant than they realize on brokers for their living won't actually get why this is bad.

But a broker being responsible for a truck driver/ carriers shitty management is not the answer here. All this is going to do is drive pricing down for carriers because brokers and shippers are going to have to pay out the ass in insurance premiums.

I am sure I will be downvoted for this.

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TojoftheJungle@reddit

Or brokers can vet their carriers properly and not turn a blind eye to the lowest rate carrier with the assurance of walking away unscathed if something were to go wrong. Do your due diligence and this shouldn't affect you.

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truckeredditor@reddit

They'll favor Megas. A mega with 10,000 drivers can have 50 fatal crashes and it's a blip. A rounding error. But they'll scrutinize every independent for having a bad inspection where they had two bad brakes and placed out of service in their one and only vehicle inspection in the past two years. They're 100% bad while the mega is 1% bad.

That's the big problem with this. The government intervention should be going after the chameleons and fly by nights. It should be illegal to have paper temp decals on trucks. Should be jail if your dot number on the registration doesn't match the carrier dot. Should be jail if you drive a cmv without a valid license or allow someone too. But instead they'll go after the one truck operator.

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tvieno@reddit

Except that the megas pretty much have their own brokering divisions and don't rely on brokers like CH Roberson a whole lot.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

Thank you for bringing this up. I keep seeing people talk up how this benefits megas, but they already do their own brokering.

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TojoftheJungle@reddit

Already is heavy scrutiny and repercussions on small carriers now though. CSA scores, insurance hikes, audits, inspections, out of service violations, freight access getting cut off over minor issues. One truck carriers/oo's can get effectively blacklisted over a couple bad inspections while brokers still had broad protection even when they knowingly used sketchy carriers chasing the cheapest rate.

Megas are favored because they have scale, legal teams, safety departments, and enough trucks to statistically absorb incidents. Brokers also feel safer hiding behind size and insuranc which is why some accountability should exist if a broker ignores obvious red flags because the rate is cheap, not wash their hands of it after the fact.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

This is my view as well. A vetted carrier with adequate safety and accountability standards offers some defense. I’m thinking more of these lousy Chameleon type carriers who take loads that in no way can be run legally for pennies on the dollar.

I do believe there should be a cap though except in extreme cases. We don’t want ridiculous nuclear verdicts (like that Werner Texas case that had no merit at all).

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I won’t downvote you because you do raise a valid point. I’d like to see a damages cap of some sort except in the most egregious cases. It is way too easy to sue. We don’t want ridiculous nuclear verdicts when there is absolutely no justification (like the Werner one that was overturned).

At the same time though I do think this is needed. With proper vetting there will be less chance of lousy carriers being utilized as often. Before this there was no oversight at all.

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Tricky_Big_8774@reddit

It's not like they're going to be 100% responsible. They just get a share of the blame. Using the Werner verdict as an example, they found the company 70% at fault and the truck driver 14%. Presumably, the 4wheeler driver was the other 16%, but the way that jury got played it was probably assigned to mother nature. Under the new ruling, it could've been a 60/10 split between the company and the broker.

I know the verdict was ridiculous and got overturned, but it was the easiest actual numbers to find.

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Housless@reddit

Can some ELI5? Or provide a credible link? I’m new to trucking, and working for myself. Trying to learn everything I can.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

I'm genuinely curious about how and why you jumped to quickly to O/O as a newcomer to trucking. Have you been in Transportation/Logistics for a long time in other capacities? Where did you get the capital for the truck and startup costs?

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SargeOsis@reddit

CH Robinson booked a carrier who crashed into a passenger vehicle during the transportation of the goods. The family sued the carrier but also the broker CH Robinson under the idea that they hired a negligent carrier. The supreme Court agreed with them. Now CH Robinson, and all other freight brokers, can be held liable for "safety issues" of the carriers they select. So carrier vetting is about to get a whole lot more invasive. The opinion doesn't seem to give a lot of guidance on what a safe carrier looks like. My personal opinion is smaller fleets, not just chameleon carriers, are about to get a kick in the dick and the megas who have the legal departments to defend themselves are about to grab another chunk of work. Rates are going to get another squeeze as the insurance is priced into the broker side of the market.

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Housless@reddit

Interesting. So this may potentially hurt me and an owner operator with only one truck currently?

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SargeOsis@reddit

I think it's a distinct possibility but I'd love to be wrong. I've got 4 guys driving for me and we're a good carrier. But are we good enough? The court doesn't offer guidance so lawyers and analysts are going to figure it out. My natural pesimism is showing.

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Housless@reddit

I’ve always been optimistic, but this economy is so wonky, I’m with you.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

Freightwaves lets you sign up for free daily emails. They cover the whole transportation industry (truck, rail, ship, plane). It’s a great way to keep up on the industry. You can also search their website for company names and it’ll pull up articles they are mentioned in.

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Housless@reddit

Thank you. I was reading the article, but tbh, some of this still goes over my head, currently speaking. I’ve spent the last 13 years in the dredging industry, so I’m coming from working the ocean and completely different issues. I’ve spent years digging out the ports that truckers get their cargo from, but never dealt with this side of it.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I’ve been out of trucking 26 years but still enjoy reading about the industry. As trucking goes the economy goes.

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Housless@reddit

Supply and demand. The only other “logistical” job I know of more stable than trucking, is dredging.

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Matlovestruck@reddit

9 to 0. Not even close. The days of brokers hiding behind federal preemption while putting unsafe carriers on the road are over. What's interesting is this doesn't just apply to safety negligence. If the courts are now saying brokers have a duty of care in carrier selection, it's only a matter of time before that logic extends to how they handle payment obligations too. Broker accountability just got a whole lot more real.

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dingdingdredgen@reddit

They'll just play the LLC shell game. Pay close attention to where the broker is incorporated.

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PhoenixSmasher@reddit

Chameleon carriers to chameleon brokers.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

Shh, don't give them any ideas.

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omgitsoop@reddit

Curious if this could have any affect on future rulings regarding liabilities for companies like Amazon/FedEx using subcontractors for deliveries

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RxSatellite@reddit

This doesn’t affect the final mile DSP delivery van/Fedex step van. In that sense Amazon and Fedex don’t operate as brokers

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PlymouthSea@reddit

It might affect Amazon AFPs, but I don't know if they ever move third party freight (or if Amazon only doles those out on Relay).

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I was thinking that as well. Using the same line of thinking I’d say yes. They’re kind of acting like brokers contracting the freight out.

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Jonas_Venture_Sr@reddit

This is actually huge and will make the roads a safer place. Wonder what Amazon will do, now that they can get sued.

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JOliverScott@reddit

Amazon was never a broker and their risk exposure doesn't change with this ruling.

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PhoenixSmasher@reddit

Amazon Relay? Any one of those carriers in that network is now a huge lawsuit risk.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

Interestingly I came across a class action lawsuit recently against Amazon over Relay. It was a fairly standard misclassification suit, stating that the structure of Relay resembles more of an employer/employee relationship. There are actually quite a few of these on the last mile side (DSPs) going through the courts. Some are on pause pending a supreme court ruling on the FAA (Federal Arbitration Act) and whether local delivery drivers should be considered transport workers (Note: Many FedEx Ground contractors will site the Federal Motor Carrier exemption when it comes to OT in states where they can pay the drivers flat daily rates).

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T_Track210@reddit

Someone's posted earlier they are paging 5$ a mile

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tasselledwobbegong1@reddit

Yeah but is that due to this or due to this being driver appreciation week at the scale house and all those who can’t pass are sitting at home for the week?

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T_Track210@reddit

Twitter/ X atleast the trucker side of it are all say its more about the brokers. The Hispanic truckers complaining they aren't get any loads cause no papers or good records

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PhoenixSmasher@reddit

I've heard of shippers telling brokers explicitly to state on the load posting that their drivers must speak/read English so they don't get turned away by the shipper.

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danDotDev@reddit

Driver appreciation week, I was so confused for a minute. Great way to describe it.

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errie_tholluxe@reddit

Damn

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tvieno@reddit

Uh oh, for Super Ego who said that they were not a carrier but a logistics company.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I had never heard of that outfit until I started watching Bonehead Truckers on YouTube. They weren’t around in the 90s when I drove. Some of the stuff I see on that channel is unbelievably bad. I’m thinking how do they operate. It’s insane.

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x31b@reddit

60 Minutes also slayed them.

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PlymouthSea@reddit

It's a shame they didn't cover Amazon, too. Their last mile is done by "DSPs" who are supposedly independent contractor logistics companies. That curiously have no competing business and do everything on Amazon's systems (they can't even hire drivers without Amazon giving the green light). Yet none of those independent companies have their names or DOT numbers on the trucks. It's only Amazon Logistics LLC and Amazon's DOT number. Same goes for the AFPs I reckon. If any of the contractors catches any heat Amazon casts them off and replaces them. Hell, the DOT drivers in last mile won't even lose their jobs if a DSP "owner" gets the boot. Amazon facilitates moving the drivers to new DSPs at the same station.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I saw that on YouTube. Super Ego and Western Express seem to be Bonehead Truckers favorites. 😂

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Riyeko@reddit

Good. Those jackasses need to face consequences of being idiotic

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Elite_Slacker@reddit

I think Super Ego just turned into a money piñata for lawyers

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ThePeterbilt589@reddit

Aaaaand...it's gone. Where did they go?!?!?!?

Good Ego terminal pops up just down the road

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SOROKAMOKA@reddit

You assume there is money inside the piñata

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Responsible_Bill_513@reddit

That is a great visual for a story I'd love to see play out.

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MtAnal@reddit

They gone

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blitzzo@reddit

I'm surprised they didn't go for the uber play: "we're not a taxi or delivery company, we're just a tech company"

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Socketz11@reddit

Maybe these scumbag brokers will start paying the detention, layover, TONU, and driver assist that they promise, then weasel out of after the fact. They book loads that are hours late, then when the driver shows up 2hrs late for a load he just got assigned 20 minutes ago, he is punished, has to be "worked in" or needs to reschedule the next day and the broker pays nothing! They nickel and dime you to the poor house! Then you have the double/triple brokering, the 50% chomps off the rate, the low balling on fuel surcharges. Endless deception and bullshit, and finally we can take them to court?

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fezz33@reddit

Absolutely hysterical that you think this anything to do with being able to sue for getting detention lol.

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Socketz11@reddit

Not sue, have states stop washing their hands to the Feds and make the pricks touchable.

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Kodiak01@reddit

The lawsuit had absolutely zero to do with anything you went on about.

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Socketz11@reddit

Its called president, and it rarely does. Its about taking something that has been untouchable and finally someone is touching it. What I was "goiung on about" which you seem to think is irrelevant babble, is putting trucking companies out of business

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Kodiak01@reddit

No, it's called you going on a half dozen tangents completely unrelated to the subject of the thread.

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Socketz11@reddit

State involvement instead of fed involvement is exactly the precedent we need to start getting protection for drivers.

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fuzzygerbil88@reddit

No. This ruling just says that brokers are also responsible if someone crashes hauling their load. If anything, the precedent set here gives brokers another way to be scummy. They can now put in their terms of a contract that they can just drop you as a carrier if they think you are a "safety risk" after having to sit for a long time (even if it there fault). Instead of paying delay pay, they will just cancel the contract and find another company that can do it with a fresh driver.

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Socketz11@reddit

The precedent is it allows individual states to go after them for violating rules established to prevent chameleon carriers instead of on a fed level. Which means back to my original post is states will now have to start taking some action against brokers for violations, which opens the door (possibly) for the states to start looking into other violations that brokers have been commiting.

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3amGreenCoffee@reddit

I don't understand why you're being downvoted for being absolutely correct.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I think it’s more focused on accident cases where a broker books a bad carrier and someone ends up hurt or worse.

I agree though there should be accountability. I’m sure these lousy carriers who run for Pennie’s are the ones they’re booking.

So while the ruling isn’t about pay and issues it could have a residual effect. We can hope.

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Socketz11@reddit

Well thats what I am hoping for. It sucks that we deal with a company (The Broker) where we basically have 0 protections from their fuckery. If cases are admitted where liability is determined, it definitely opens the door for better civil protection.

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DukeBradford2@reddit

Hopefully it keeps them honest. If bad drivers are squeezed out then maybe it will trickle up to bad brokers that rely on shady practices will get sued out of the industry

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Socketz11@reddit

Exactly, hopefully it means that states can no longer wash their hands of anything a broker does wrong and turn it over to the Feds, which is why carriers have had such difficulty going after these "untouchables" with the exception of taking action against their bond, now there can be other state laws created to protect carriers. The "precedent " of which I originally posted is now that there is state involvement, we can move onto other issues that directly affect us.

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dadbodsupreme@reddit

Having worked a short while in 3PL, that's nuts. How do you get owner/operators to ever do a second load if you treat everyone like shit?

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PhoenixSmasher@reddit

There are over half a million trucking companies in the US. Half of them own just 1 truck. It's easy to abuse them because of the never-ending supply of suckers entering the industry every single day.

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Socketz11@reddit

You are trapped in a certain area. TQL is offering their standard $1.65+FSC and the guy that screwed you over will take $3.25+FSC so you grab the better rate.

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fezz33@reddit

All these whiny ass carriers in here cheering saying "about damn time brokers can be sued too for hiring our piece of shit companies" 😂😂😂 nice flex

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pharrison26@reddit

I’ve always been careful who give loads to ….

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BoneHammer62@reddit

Does this make brokers start to demand driver level information?

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I’m not sure about what they use today. I know we had DAC back in the late 90s. But I’d imagine something like that would be required. They’d verify the driver isn’t some serial killer on wheels and the company doesn’t have a thousand failed inspections.

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BoneHammer62@reddit

Currently if the carrier had anything but an unsatisfactory rating, it yeets.

Now I’m wondering what will define an ‘acceptable’ level of vetting. Will they want the individual driver record to cover their asses?

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eminencefront-57@reddit

All of the truck drivers and owner operators are going to have to go to work for the big carriers . You are going to have to get your loads from them , if you aren’t getting them from brokers.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

What I’m thinking is more Landstar type broker outfits. They were big when I drove in the 90s (assume they’re still around). I assume they have some kind of vetting process.

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Mnemorath@reddit

Brokers all over Eastern Europe…I mean Chicago just dropped a load.

💩💩

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PhoenixSmasher@reddit

RIP Strong Solo Sergey. 🫡

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3amGreenCoffee@reddit

That article is really poorly written. I think I had a stroke trying to read it.

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DeeDee_Z@reddit

OP, do you think that many people cheering today, will be asking "Why did we think this was a good idea" six months from now? What ARE the downsides here, that people aren't giving much thought to right now?

(For instance, will all the "floating" DOT/MC numbers end up being more of a nightmare than they are today? Will stuff getting delegated to the states make it more difficult to enforce this "new accountability" after all? Stuff like that...)

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HelloGlarc@reddit

The FAAAAAAAAAAA preemption shield is gone.

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RainierCamino@reddit

Wow. Incredible to see the supreme court do something right after years of fucking over folks voting rights, ignoring gun rights, and approving concentration camps.

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AroundGoesThe18@reddit

Big win for the Megas, more scrutiny for the independents that haul for brokers, and all of the fly by night three-letter companies that are duct taped to the sides of trucks can get fucked for all I care.

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ArdenJaguar@reddit (OP)

I’ve saw a YouTube video where a truck involved in an accident was actually having its DOT number removed before the cops got there. There was a whole different name and number. I drove back in the 90s and don’t think I ever saw something like that.

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LoveLoud319@reddit

The federal regulation on obtaining a USDOT number is laughable. A fly by night carrier can pay a few fees, fill out an app and have an active DOT number. IMO, having state by state laws is going to make it harder to hold the actual responsible party accountable for safety issues. Safety audits usually happen within 12 months of beginning operations and by that time, a carrier can just get a new DOT and MC number and start all over with little oversight after having multiple incidents.

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DreamsServedSoft@reddit

I took college classes with the same type of people in that particular video and they always inexplicably had answers sheets for last semesters tests and would do all homework, group or not, together and always group cheated on tests but rarely got caught or the professor didn’t care. they all graduated the same time I did. Im impressed with their ability to game the system but it did make me feel like an idiot doing it the ”real” way

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HighwayStar71@reddit

Now, require carriers to go in-person to get fingerprinted and get their DOT and MC numbers. That would eliminate the paper-plate and Sharpie companies.

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AxCtSolChi@reddit

Thats why the Amazon load board is posting at $5-$6 per mile now😂😂😂😂 $4,000 to move freight one state away😂😂😂😂 "Who's the captain now?" Muafuckas.....😂😂😂 So glad the non domicile CDLs are leaving. Market is improving already.

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LAsupersonic@reddit

it's about time, I wonder what the brokers in Dheli will do.

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lordwreynor@reddit

It's about damn time

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tvieno@reddit

What see is now that the brokers will obviously buy insurance now but instead of eating that cost, they'll end up paying the O/O less. I hope that is not the case but I feel it will be.

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PM_ME_UR_PRETTYBRA@reddit

Where was this 6 years ago when I was driving?

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GamerFreak112@reddit

I abhor government intervention but man.........a man was squashed not even a few months ago by a semi driver as I was driving to work. Yesterday a semi didnt wanna miss his lane and cut 2 lanes of traffic to pass through the gourd. Luckily people actually payed attention and no accident. But unfortunately people are sick of the lack of safety.

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