What combat scenarios do you think the M7/ 8 would be good in?
Posted by StrangerOutrageous68@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 111 comments
Mountain warfare against non-peer advcersaries comes out a lot, but I'm curious what you think.
AdeptusKapekus2025@reddit
Its definitely not a M14/M16 replacement but its a compact designated marksman rifle or compact battle rifle if you want more body armor penetration capability.
Folding stock plus the super hot round makes it easy for airborne ops or quick in and outs of vehicles. Its for cool guys that are in and out in less than 15 minutes which makes the added weight an acceptable trade-off for the smaller overall size.
Its for specialized troops that have to fight unconventional battles, not for the regular grunts.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
What body armor does it penetrate at what distance?
AdeptusKapekus2025@reddit
Just for reference, I am onboard the train that this rifle was oversold to the point that its snake oil at this point hahaha... I think it started as an okay rifle but its obvious that a committee of good idea fairies gave it the SA80 treatment with retarded features like two charging handles.
But I think that 6.8x51mm (.277 SIG Fury) is interesting, the full powered version I mean. I just skimmed over the specs but it looks like you can get the same performance or better out of a much shorter barreled rifle to that of a 7.62 (.308) out of a longer barrel.
User this as reference:
https://ammo.com/comparison/277-fury-vs-308
A .277 Fury with a 113gr bullet out of a 16in barrel was able to maintain a velocity 1883fps at 500yds... while the OG 308 with a 110gr bullet out of a 24in barrel (!) is only able to keep 1576 fps at 500yds. Procurement politics aside, I think that is impressive.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
The price you pay for performance is measured in numbers also. In cash and reduced lifespan of the entire gun.
AdeptusKapekus2025@reddit
Do I need it? Nope.
But to say a group of Delta Force or SEALS or CAG that basically have no budget limit? Yeaaa, I see them having a rifle in .277 Fury in their armouries as an option.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
We'll see if Spec Ops can find a niche for it and I can totally see if they do or they don't. As again, it can deliver a punch despite the inability to penetrate LEVEL IV plates. But we will see how it develops. Yes someone will mention saboted bullets, but are a compromise, and a big one! Very light, very fast tough to make consistent and accurate.
Not an end all be all by any way!
One also needs to understand this, putting down your opponent matters a lot despite not penetrating the plate. However this can be done by other, objectively overall better cartridges, even heavy intermediate ones on the first shot and AP
I personally think the 6.8x51mm has very little justification for existence as it stands now.
AdeptusKapekus2025@reddit
A lot of your negative opinion on the rifle/ammo combo seems to be stemming from the disappointment of it not being able to defeat Level 4 plates in one shot.
In looking around, like this video from Alabama Arsenal, they were able to shoot the hybrid case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGL9wP8_-LI
But the thing is, the hybrid rounds available to civilians from sig are described as to having bullets in them "being like Sierra match king but not sierra match king". I dont think civilians can even get the actual "armor piercing" bullets right now.
If you dont actually use a bullet with a steel/tungsten penetrator, like what the the m8851 has, then you are really not setup for defeating body armor. I think all of the civilian testing that we have seen so far with hybrid rounds are with regular copper jacketed bullets with lead cores.
With that in mind, its actually now more impressive how that hybrid round was able to dig into that Level 4 plate without a proper penetrator bullet.
PS.
135g at 2900fps at the muzzle out of a 13in barrel? Holyshet.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
You see, again. You pay for those numbers greatly. Holy shit this holy shit that. Plus you do not want to do, I emphasize, you do not want to do hybrid cases because of differnet rates of expansion. And manufacturability.
Yes, still is an excellent material for the the base of the cartridge. And brass sticks less in the chamber area than steel would.
But in reality, you want either or.
You want to push all the pressure in the world? Go with steel, even if you need a beefier extractor. Well then do not get tied down with AR-15 and AR-10 or intermediary form factors and design a larger receiver.
And yes, you need tungsten bullets to defeat LVL IV. plates, rifle rounds for first round penetration at x range. Tungsten is not available in every country. It is mostly found in Asia.
AdeptusKapekus2025@reddit
And again (again?), the messed up thing was trying to sell this rifle/ammo combo to the US Army as a whole when its a niche weapon meant for niche missions.
Maybe SIG's intention was to have a specialized expensive niche weapon all along and it was really not their plan to replace the AR15 for the whole big US Army. They did it this way so that uncle sugar will pick up the development costs.
And again (again again?) The rifle/ammo combo we have now is not for us normies. It "can be practical" for the same group of people that can use Eotechs despite the well documented delamination issue because their departments have budgets so large that they can have them buy a new one every year.
Bloody_Insane@reddit
I wonder about the hybrid construction of the full power .277, though. I really like the stats of the cartridge, but I suspect there are going to be problems that need to be ironed out (as is the case with any new tech fielded en masse).
I can fully picture a scenario where something happens like the plastic deforms during storage, forcing soldiers to use the normal brass rounds. Or idk, some weird corrosion happening in the jungle, or something along those lines.
Historically speaking, that's the kind of thing that makes or breaks a platform. With the amount of money that Sig and the DoD is pouring into this though, I imagine they'll be willing to work through such issues.
In particular I think about the aluminium magazines initially used for the M16, and how they were intended to be disposable, but we ended up where we are now, with fancy reliable polymer mags.
Like maybe they ditch the hybrid plastic cases and just start making casings out of titanium /jk
Kegalodon@reddit
Terminator
TheDarkerWater_@reddit
Probably as a DMR but 6 arc exists so that kinda doesn’t matter anymore
1610925286@reddit
6 arc isn't exactly reliable. The entire geometry of the case makes it a stillbirth outside of anything but an enthusiast context.
SomeDudeNamedDavid@reddit
It's a niche range shooting cartridge. Everyone wants a featherweight and effective DMR, but the MK-12 SPR is slept on in military circles.
1610925286@reddit
I honestly also don't understand the point of 6 arc. We are swapping the barrel, magazines(which are too long for prone shooting), bolt head. I think it would make far more sense to develop a new intermediate receiver to accommodate a less fucked up round that doesn't have so many feeding issues.
Then we cloud have normal length mags, stronger bolts and the soft recoil + performance.
SomeDudeNamedDavid@reddit
From my understanding, 6ARC was meant to be almost as light as 5.56, while punching as far and almost, if not as hard, as 7.62x51mm. Logistical nightmare aside, it sounds good on paper, but it's much harder to accomplish in practice.
Another problem is the fact that the average person, let alone the average soldier, would rarely be able to see or even hit a man sized target at ranges beyond 300m to 400m unless it's bright and sunny outside, with no wind, you're in a flat empty field, your target is standing still, you're able to hold the rifle perfectly still, and the target you're shooting at isn't shooting back.
1610925286@reddit
I think the idea isn't bad at all, it's just weird that we traded all the downsides just to keep the AR receiver, when we could have a longer cartridge and avoid all of that.
CWM_99@reddit
It’s a great option to toss in the DMR role, but the army has kinda monkey fucked that whole situation every time they’ve tried it. I think if applied appropriately as a DMR, it would be a great rifle to keep in inventory. Other than that, it’s not super optimal for giving to every grunt on the ground in my eyes. The higher power round is cool and would be effective for light barriers I’m sure, but the decreased combat loadout is silly when it’s been proven time and time again that more ammo is the better option for 99% of engagements
Cur14@reddit
Imaginary ones
cfwang1337@reddit
Aliens with thick exoskeletons, infantry wearing powered armor with full-body level 4 protection, and other sci-fi scenarios.
Revolutionary-Wash88@reddit
I'm hyped
cfwang1337@reddit
In the grim darkness of the far future, etc.
TheAleFly@reddit
Need to up that caliber quite a bit more for that…
cfwang1337@reddit
Autoguns have their place! Not everything is a bolter. That new 30mm grenade rifle comes close, though.
No_Dress_2107@reddit
Probably
Dedischado@reddit
Budgetary
iloveneekoles@reddit
Anything 6.5 Creed is good at.
ass_eater_96@reddit
It looks cool
jdgomez775@reddit
Long range shooting, mounts top to mountain top. The army always prepares for the last war.
BrokenBodyEngineer@reddit
Non peer means no armor, the entire point of the rifle.
It’s good a decreasing effective combat load out, shorting g reacting to contact and suppressive fires, breaking resupply from allied nations and even inter branch resupply.
It’s excellent at making Sig money. There’s that.
The FN new rifle and the ICAR, that’s actually being tested by 1st SFOD right now, would be infinity better option.
Able-Quantity-1879@reddit
Just because 1st SFOD is testing them doesn't mean much for the big Army because the missions are different.
BrokenBodyEngineer@reddit
You’re right. Because the M4 and block program, one of the largest small arms adoptions in history, didn’t start there.
Able-Quantity-1879@reddit
The M4 was rolled out Army wide (I know, I was there - I was in a Mech(anized Infantry) Battalion and we got the M4 before 2nd Batt and 10th group) - Amberdeen Proving grounds did the testing. I'll give you the M16, but that was in the 1960's.
kenhooligan2008@reddit
That's 100% not true considering our Snipers had SR25s back in 2006 when I got to 2/75. The M110 may have been fielded by Big Army in 07 but it was developed and used( under the SR25 Designation) well prior to that by SOF.
Able-Quantity-1879@reddit
They may have bought them but they didn't get them issued.
kenhooligan2008@reddit
You do realize that MK11 Mod 0 's were actually issued right?
BrokenBodyEngineer@reddit
There was SFOD guys using the prototype SR 25’s as early as 2000 according to the Sheriff of Baghdad dude(I honestly forgot his name).
kenhooligan2008@reddit
Yup, SOCOM officially began adoption in 2000 as the MK11 Mod 0, however the SR25 system has been around since the early 90s (and I believe was used by SOF in limited numbers until it's official adoption but I could be mistaken on that)
polygon_tacos@reddit
I distinctly remember when M4s arrived at 1/10 SF summer of 1994. First time I ever saw a flat top receiver, amd it didn’t just replaced the CAR-15(ish) carbines we had in the company arms rooms: pretty much everyone got one including the support guys.
Able-Quantity-1879@reddit
Yup that would have been right around them… a few of them even came with A2 uppers…
kenhooligan2008@reddit
Again, Big Army( and SOF) began receiving M4s on a larger scale in 94. SEALS were testing them a year prior in Somalia and variations of the XM177, some of those variations being what would eventually become the M4 Carbine had been in use with SOF since Vietnam. The M4 was a direct result of SOFs utilization of XM177s and their variants. Even further, the utilization of flat top receivers and KAC RAS systems started within SOF and eventually went to Big Army.
Moshjath@reddit
I feel like this is a bit of the chicken vs the egg comment. Citing SOF as one of the primary driving factor in small arms advancement…but where would they have been prior to adoption of the AR-15/XM16 by Air Force security forces and advisors to the ARVN driving development of the XM16E1 then wide scale adoption of the M16A1 by the 60’s equivalent of the general purpose force…then fielding of the XM177 then CAR-15 by select organizations…point being these days the what the military buys is driven by capability gaps driving materiel or non materiel requirements, which drives the acquisition system. What the SOF world buys is mildly interesting, but mostly because they access P11 funding for their limited requirements.
kenhooligan2008@reddit
I don't disagree but I'm strictly speaking to the current iteration of the M4 and where it came from.
BrokenBodyEngineer@reddit
The M110 was big army adopting the…SR25… whose use originated where, exactly?
Able-Quantity-1879@reddit
Well, defenselink has a copy of the original request for proposal for the Semi Auto Sniper System and it looks like it came directly from the Secretary of the Army - Knights won the contract, and their internal model name was SR25.
sabrefencer9@reddit
That's not a counter argument. The point is that the venn diagram of "best weapon for army'' and "best weapon for sfod" overlaps but aren't identical. So just because a weapon is in the overlapping region doesn't mean any particular weapon is. Maybe it would be good for the army too! But its use by sfod isn't necessarily evidence of that.
kenhooligan2008@reddit
In terms of an Infantry rifle, in this case the ICAR, the overlap is 100% there. Now if we were talking things more niche like the LVAW, sub guns, or PDWs, you'd be correct.
DaniilSan@reddit
Hey, maybe it was a plan all along. It doesn't matter if you break resupply from allied nations if you don't have allies.
HELLFISH-762@reddit
ICAR makes way more sense. if we need something we need 5.56 but better, not shinier .308
JMHSrowing@reddit
In this day and age, does non peer mean no armor? Armor should be proliferating and become easier to make.
Less than peer but still decently funded is where I think the M7 might have some use. Like shooting through BMPs
egregious12345@reddit
Shooting through select parts of the oldest BMPs from uncomfortably close ranges.
If anyone ever found themselves in a position where they had to use their M7 to engage a BMP, they'd be in all kinds of shit.
The "can shoot through BMPs*" "feature" is a meme, nothing more.
JMHSrowing@reddit
Yeah you’re in a bad place in such a situation but people often end up in bad situations where 7.62mm resistant vehicles are uncomfortably close.
There’s plenty of videos from Ukraine at least
pathmt@reddit
Drones.
egregious12345@reddit
Only from the start of the war. Vehicles haven't been getting to the zero line for a long time.
I've never seen a situation where an M7's capability would have helped, and I'm a semi-professional Ukraine watcher who is going there shortly.
Every squad is carrying (usually multiple) AT weapons (Bulspike is quite common, but there are innumerable different types), which almost invariably end up getting used against infantry/structures (if at all) because there's virtually no armour to engage. It gets taken out in the now ~20km deep kill zone long before it gets anywhere near the zero line.
Rho42@reddit
Peer and near-peer would be troops equipped with rifle-rated armor.
Non-peer would be dudes who don't have that. Soft armor and flak / pistol rated stuff would fall under this category.
kilojoulepersecond@reddit
I wouldn't necessarily say this is the case today. Even Syrian rebels and the like have increasingly been seen with plates, especially Chinese ones which are available on the market and proliferating. People have this early/mid-GWOT impression of insurgents all wearing sandals or tracksuits, but this isn't always true anymore.
SakanaToDoubutsu@reddit
"Hey, we just got word Chinese submarines sunk the latest supply convoy and we won't be getting ammunition resupply for a while, go over there to the stack of bodies that were killed by FPV drones and start linking their ammunition into belts so we can give it to the machine gunners & armored vehicles".
hawkeyeisnotlame@reddit
Yeah but the m240s are still going to shoot 7.62 and I haven't seen any plan to use the m250 in a weapons squad on a tripod. It's not the same
KaijuTia@reddit
America has a long and storied tradition of preparing to fight the last war, instead of preparing the fight the current or future one. 6.8 and the M7 was based on 'lessons' learned in an asymmetric was fought starting 20 years ago. Meanwhile, Ukraine has shown everyone that if you have a target at 800m, you get a drone to deal with it.
hawkeyeisnotlame@reddit
A flat MRF range, maybe extending out to 800m or so.
It would not excell in the mountains because it's heavy as piss and the rounds are heavy as piss as well, so any joe humping it up a mountain is going to b so tired they can't properly employ any extended range capabilities it may have.
KaijuTia@reddit
No average soldier is EVER going to be effective at 800m with an infantry rifle, no matter how good the rifle is. MAYBE leaving it as a DMR would work, but Ian's talked about the fact that the average soldier can't even SEE a target past 300m, let alone effectively engage it.
hawkeyeisnotlame@reddit
If you read in my comment history, those are all points I have made at various points. I'd argue that if you really wanted to you could do it like they do the m240 qual with multiple ivan targets that pop up out beyond 400m. Not much point for it though.
I did 12 years in the infantry and got out last year lol. All of Ian's points are spot on.
sabrefencer9@reddit
If your piss is that heavy you should see a urologist
FafnerTheBear@reddit
Or drink more ripits.
badblaine@reddit
Or sell your soul to ahem, Iran... Heavy water has uses
sabrefencer9@reddit
Eh, D2O isn't that hard to make. I buy it by the liter and it's still not a big deal. Helium is a way larger expense. Operative point being, that's not what Iran struggles with.
ACarKey@reddit
Mountains suck anyway, nevermind carrying even just a lightweight AR. Imagine making the conscious choice for that specific scenario of taking that much extra weight, for a highly debatable, marginal increase in hit probability which is completely invalidated by the fact that you have way less ammo.
TacTyger@reddit
Armor penetration. Supposedly it can penetrate armored vehicles with ease. So that's kind of cool
StonewallSoyah@reddit
Marksman DMR.... Oh. Nvm. It's a 4-6 moa gun lol
Ssssci@reddit
Apparently. The m8 with its shorter barrel is actually almost 1 moa due to decrease length reducing barrel whip. Funnily enough the shorter gun has more potential for a dmr role.
Jayson330@reddit
Shooting dudes.
spizzlemeister@reddit
I mean it was literally created 1. to defeat body armour and 2. to engage at distances the M4 can't so ideal scenario would be fighting Chinese soldiers in the mountains but idk how likely that is rn
KaijuTia@reddit
US: There's an MG over there 700m away! Let's throw our entire supply chain into turmoil to deal with it!
Ukraine: There's an MG over there 700m away! Good thing I have this SkyMall drone with a hand grenade duct taped to it! Sure would be stupid to throw our entire supply chain into turmoil to deal with it.
PassivelyInvisible@reddit
Are you ready for joining the military just in time to go back to the sandbox?
Nekommando@reddit
Another Afghanistan but this time they wear level 3 protection for some reason
zoofergee@reddit
2005 desert combat against combatants that sat at 1000 yards taking pop shots at your fixed position. Today an fpv drone would do that job much more effectively.
whit_mon_lee@reddit
Ensuring I go black on ammo as fast as possible
NikolaisThirdEye@reddit
Fragging your CO
CapDaddyLaFlame@reddit
Ammo bearers, use the glass to aid in designation of area targets and any point target out at range they can pop to keep guns on their fix.
totaltomination@reddit
I mean, it's a gun so it's real handy to have one in a fight. Even better if the other guy doesn't.
Modern_Doshin@reddit
The next CoD
ThundahMuffin@reddit
Mountains and other engagements with long sightlines
MikeForce64@reddit
Fighting Skynet T-600/T-800 Infiltrators...
CarolOfTheHells@reddit
So...give it 5 years and it'll be useful?
Moppyploppy@reddit
This is hyperbolic fake news fear mongering and you should be ashamed of yourself.
At this rate it's 3.5 years....tops.
Any-Committee-9498@reddit
One where the army was competent. But then the fight would be for why the rifle was even made.
justaheatattack@reddit
the year end reports.
MuddlinThrough@reddit
Shooting at armoured knights on horseback from atop the castle walls?
System0verlord@reddit
Now I’m picturing mounted cavalry on those Boston dynamics robots, with M7s on their backs, and the explosive lance/spear things from Mad Max Fury Road lining up to charge the castle walls under cover of smoke grenades launched by archers with compound bows.
MuddlinThrough@reddit
Well in that case I certainly hope you're aware of the upcoming game Kimgmakers !
thehumungus@reddit
A guy that's 600m away and wearing russian titanium armor from the 90's.
Diligent-Chance8044@reddit
I think something people have not thought about is anti fpv drone rounds. There are 5.56 rounds that fire multiple pellets but the M7/8 fire a much larger caliber so maybe that type of ammunition will preform better. With how fpv drones dominate Ukraine having a better option is a major deal.
Not mention near peer nations like China are finally investing in armor vest for their soldiers plans to have 1.4 million vests over next 2 years.
Another big thing is can you disable ground drones? Drones like Ukraine's Simba. 6.8 is supposed to be much better at penetrating and taking on something like a ground drone is very likely in near peer combat. 5.56 is not designed to be anti material even if we have rounds that can function in that capacity. 6.8 is just going to do that better.
The biggest issue is still weight. Another interesting thought is similar doctrine to the Russians SVD of a designated marksman rifle within a squad.
Tactical_Epunk@reddit
As a stop gap between a SSR, DMR, and a Battle Rifle.
Nesayas1234@reddit
Anything that a DMR do, albeit slightly worse since it's set up as a GI rifle (like how the M27 can be a GI rifle, but is slightly worse than an M4 because it's set up as an IAR).
Theworker82@reddit
I just dont see the point of the m7/8 when we already have the m110.
ThatNiceBlakGuy@reddit
It'd be a decent DMR that can shatter rifle plates at best.
UtgaardLoki@reddit
Fending off pirates at sea.
Fending off amphibious landings.
Maybe anything where a .308 is currently used?
_That_Guy_in_AZ_@reddit
As a DMR only.
CriticalP0tat0@reddit
When Ai controlled robots are roaming the streets and we need a bit more punch?
Cman1200@reddit
Afghanistan about 15 years ago maybe
coldafsteel@reddit
I have one! Its got some short comings, bit its getting better with the minor revisions we have already seen.
While it is heavy, I don't see it as a bad option for European Wars. People jump up and down and claim the gun was designed with body armor as its primary driver. But the reality is it's more about destruction of equipment. On the battlefield of today, more and more things that need shooting aren't people.
Able-Quantity-1879@reddit
As a former line dog, I have to say - at least it's new! Not some crap from 27 years ago that rattles. (It doesn't rattle, does it?).
explodingazn@reddit
The Fulda Gap, or was that supposed to be M14's/FAL's?
paypaypayme@reddit
Your premise is wrong, it's meant to fight PEER adversaries, i.e. body armor at longer ranges. It can also piece through thin russian and chinese vehicle armor. e.g. BTR-82
sajahet25@reddit
dmr
Cheap-Material-5518@reddit
PurpD420@reddit
One where effective exoskeletons are fielded to carry a shit ton more ammo, along with the accompanying plate/wraparound armor that can take multiple hits from .50BMG
ShiftyLookinCow7@reddit
A race to see which rifle can have a parts breakage first
Key-Lifeguard7678@reddit
If they have power armor, terminators (as someone said here), or alien space bats.
Otherwise, waste of time.
The_Best_Yak_Ever@reddit
Shooting the stationary paper targets that aren’t shooting back?
Seriously, probably like you said. Mountain terrain, but without ranging too far from either FOBs that get resupplied with its heavy ammo, or at least closish to a place ammo can be delivered. It’s a heavy boy with heavy ammo, so that alone needs to be taken into account.
But the US is a battlefield logistical monster, so I’m sure it’ll get fed wherever it ends up.
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