My Flight instructor told me this:
Posted by Maruan-007@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 77 comments
I had a chat yesterday after landing with my Flight instructor and I asked him what was the most “scary moment” of his career since he used to fly the F/A18 Super Hornet in a carrier as well and surprisingly he told me that most of his “scary” moments happened actually during flight lessons with his students because some other people in the airfield don’t communicate or look properly out of the windows while flying VFR and end up cutting each others flight patterns that can lead to dangerous collision.
He then told me that he felt way more safe while doing dog fights trainings against other fighter jets like F-22’s lol, I was pretty impressed to hear this.
SnazzyStooge@reddit
Former military pilot here. Can confirm, flying with students is way scarier than any other flying.
Maruan-007@reddit (OP)
That’s insane thinking about it, because most of people would automatically think the opposite, you get what I mean ?
SnazzyStooge@reddit
Sure, I get it.
Students are very unpredictable and impulsive, a scary combo in aviation.
otherwisepandemonium@reddit
When I was earning my PPL, my instructor told me his worst student was one who brought them to near stall on final, but when my instructor told him to add power immediately, the student tried to raise the flaps. Instructor took over immediately to land.
SnazzyStooge@reddit
Yep, very common for students to try to raise the flaps on you in a near-stall. I guess that’s one way to quickly escape an approach to stall…by going straight into a fully developed stall! 🤣
CaptainBarkleyBear@reddit
Happened to me and that is still the scariest moment of my flying career. Not enough airspeed to maintain lift AND get back on centerline. I chose to hover over the runway edge lights waiting with the stall warning horn chirping, waiting to develop enough airspeed to climb and get back over the runway. I was waiting to hear those lights pinging off the tires
SnazzyStooge@reddit
Sounds like the longest five seconds ever — I would have been terrified! Good for you for keeping your nerve.
CaptainBarkleyBear@reddit
Dude the longest 5 seconds for sure. I could hear the pilot debrief guy in my head talking about our impending accident.
I didn't fly in the military but I was in the Marine Corps infantry- I know we relate to those moments when training takes over. It was textbook.
Rattled at first no doubt, but then super proud of how I handled it
robo786@reddit
is it really common? thats like completely unthinkable to me idk i guess these people went to flight school with actual 0 knowledge not even peripheral. maybe i am biased because i used to play war thunder a lot as a kid so stalling was a familiar concept already :D . why raise flaps when ur hand is literally on the throttle already not even taking into account your own intuition. the plane feels like its struggling, the attitude doesnt feel right and the controls are too light. all this kinda makes u want to lower the nose even if u dont have the most experience yet.
bhalter80@reddit
I had a retract student, doing his first soft field takeoff in a retract got into ground effect great, starting to accelerate in ground effect, pulls the gear up.
Fortunately we didn't bounce but man that was close
otherwisepandemonium@reddit
I would have been sweating lol
bhalter80@reddit
Oh trust me I was ... now I cover the switch.
I also teach that "positive rate" is at least a 300fpm because the instrument students also like retracting the gear transitioning to a missed while still (marginally) descending at DH
SnazzyStooge@reddit
It’s not so common that every student will do it, but I bet it’s common enough that it’s happened (or attempted to happen) to every instructor.
wrc-capital@reddit
I mean techincally true that reducing drag will help with speed gaining. The only problem is that you'll be gaining vertical speed downwards in that context... Totally the CFI's fault for not specifying what kind of speed he wants. /s
homeinthesky@reddit
I I had a similar experience with a student student trying to kill me. On final, not near stall, but starting to drop below glide slope. I said “add a little power) to which the student grabbed the flap handle and went from 60 degrees of flaps to 0degrees flaps at 65 kts, with no power in, at 500agl on short final. Since it was in a piper, the flaps move as fast as you move that handle so it was immediate drop in lift, took me a second to get the bird climbing again on a go around.
No idea what the student was thinking, they didn’t either on debrief.
SnazzyStooge@reddit
The very definition of “sorry, I got my wires crossed I guess”
jaxin737@reddit
That was the case with Colgan Air in Buffalo. The F/O said “I raised the flaps,” apparently thinking that would help get out of the stall.
Bunslow@reddit
sounds like a bit of an education problem, stall is an aoa problem, not a speed problem
BarnackIIIF@reddit
I fly in the Phoenix area, can confirm...students are scary af.
-smartcasual-@reddit
Which are scarier - military students or civilian?
MangledX@reddit
Both. They share the same quality of ignorance of things they don't yet know. Doesn't matter the background or how fast the hardware flies. They both can kill you very quickly if you don't respond correctly to a mistake.
Archon_POM@reddit
I mean, yea of course.
In the military you are flying with the absolute best trained pilots in the world.
In a VFR pattern at an uncontrolled airfield you have idiots that should have deposited their license years ago.
Phaas777A@reddit
Even flying into contested airspace during combat sorties comes with planning, intel on anticipated threats, and pre-planned responses for how to mitigate risks.
None of that is present with a student pilot who freezes up on the controls after a bad landing or does something else completely unexpected… or a surprise close-call with some dude in a J3 with no radio Leeroy Jenkins-ing into the pattern from a non-standard direction.
1202burner@reddit
Well...
I guess I'll go ahead and take notes since I want to buy a Cub someday.
JimTheJerseyGuy@reddit
Known unknowns vs unknown unknowns, I suppose.
CharAznableLoNZ@reddit
Most of the near misses I've had were outside a mode C shadow at a local airfield that has a reputation for a lot of weekend fliers.
matt2_03@reddit
My scariest moments have all been from other pilots, not students. Students will do unpredictable things but you can always grab the controls. Had a 172 taxi onto the runway while I was on short final. Made my go around call, and this guy still decided to takeoff. Watched a cirrus takeoff while a hawker was landing on the opposite end of the runway. Pretty sure neither one made radio calls.
FvKuR0@reddit
I’m about to enter the CFI world and a buddy of mine has some crazy stories of his time in the trenches. Had a guy descend literally right on top of him in the downwind during pattern work and described seeing the other guys tire floating maybe 5-10 feet above him. Another one was an accident at Compton back in 2019 when a warbird was coming in to land and came down on a Cessna 172 ahead of him. Decapitated the student pilot and chopped a six inch gash through the CFIs left shoulder.
TRX4M@reddit
That midair landed and one survived after that?
That's horrific.
FvKuR0@reddit
I just looked it up and found an old news article on it. It was actually a 152 that was rolling down the runway and a T-28 was landing into the setting sun right behind them and crashed into them on the runway. Here's the article and footage from the crash on youtube
just_an_ordinary_guy@reddit
If I found the right guy, he was 84 when it happened and he is a retired commercial pilot, so he should've known better I'd think.
TRX4M@reddit
😭 damnnnnn damn damn. That really sucks.
bowleshiste@reddit
One of several reasons why I have zero desire to get my CFI
SkiDaderino@reddit
My dad was a Wild Weasel pilot in Vietnam. He told me that their missile alert alarms were going off so much that they just turned them off.
CavalierRigg@reddit
There is very, very few things that have ever scared me more than a student trying to land in a gusty, crosswind for the first time. He suddenly let out all of the wind-side aileron (left) he had been putting in, and actually CRANKED it full blast to the other side (right) because “[he] was a little left of centerline”. I deadass saw the runway 50’ below us, near stall speed, at atleast 45° of bank. “MY CONTROLS”, slammed the full power in so hard I was surprised I didn’t crack the panel, added left rudder while managing pitch and we got out of there.
Tower said, “Go around observed, you okay?” Only got out an “affirm” didn’t even say our tail number back, and if I did, I don’t remember. That whole pattern back around was a blur, but I do remember my student on the downwind saying, “I think I got it this time, lemme try again.”
I did not let him try again that day, nerves were fried.
I say this story because it was entirely my fault. My student pilot had been getting really good at his high performance take-offs and landings, and I got complacent. Lesson learned, I’m just glad it didn’t ruin my career and we didn’t bend metal.
arcticslush@reddit
I guess that's why people say "your best students are the ones that will kill you"
Maruan-007@reddit (OP)
Damn that’s intense
ifoxtrotsierra@reddit
I felt so bad for my instructor after performing 10 consecutive slam and goes...
InsGuy2023@reddit
The # 1 goal of the student pilot is to kill the flight instructor. The # 1 goal of the CFI is to not let him. After that, it's all fun n games.
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
Yeah if anything goes wrong you just pull a handle and give the jet back to the taxpayers! Not really an option in the GA world
Ben9096@reddit
Unless you got caps
Raccoon_Ratatouille@reddit
True, but what are the chances that system is actually going to work after a midair collision jams it shut or destroy the chute or incapacitates the pilots?
And with a 400’ minimum demonstrated altitude in level flight or 920’ in a spin, that’s still cutting it close for a traffic pattern stall, recognition, reaction, probable recovery effort, then decide to use CPS and activating it, but yeah it’s probably better than nothing.
Ben9096@reddit
I’d prefer to have an ejection seat, that’s the goal actually. But caps feels unimaginably better than a skyhawk without one. I’ve seen caps be deployed outside of tolerances and it fail, but it’s also worked outside of those limits. Within the limits, it has a pretty high chance of working. I’m not sure of the likelihood of the caps system jamming due to a midair collision, but I do know that Cirrus was sort of founded after the one or both of the brothers were involved in a midair collision. I’m sure the team’s considered it at some point
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
so far, the odds within limits are 100%
imblegen@reddit
Eh, you have the handle, but the plane still belongs to you, unfortunately
__joel_t@reddit
Hopefully it belongs to the insurance company.
imblegen@reddit
True
ptownpcs@reddit
Actually insurance at that point 😂
Maruan-007@reddit (OP)
That’s also true
radioswede@reddit
Former commercial test pilot here. For me it's a tie between one specific local sightseeing flight with an unsafe pilot in the front seat and every damn time a student tried to kill us.
I say this having been through a career total of 3 engine failures, including one in night IMC, none of which were nearly as scary.
y2khardtop1@reddit
Car racing/instructing is similar, if you trust the people around you 180mph inches from another car feels safer than 55 on the highway
f1racer328@reddit
I did an intro to high performance driving class and never felt in any danger or risk of being crashed into, and this was with a few 20 min open track sessions after the lessons.
Meanwhile driving my car back on public roads is way worse.
Dramatic-Self-8813@reddit
The funniest thing is that everyone here was a student at some point, hahaha.
Maruan-007@reddit (OP)
So we all tried to kill someone at some point ? lol
Dramatic-Self-8813@reddit
I didn't say that.What I said is that everyone here has been a student at some point in their lives and has possibly made some mistakes too. I understand that some mistakes are truly fatal, and it's not for nothing that most accidents are due to human error.
Maruan-007@reddit (OP)
Ofc I was just joking btw… we all start at some point, the important things is to listen properly to our flight instructors and be less impulsive.
Strega007@reddit
Yes, military training dogfights have Training Rules and Special Instructions for safety and are performed by well-trained pilots.
I generally agree with your CFI, although I haven't found any civilian aviation equivalent to defending against a guided SAM.
msandovalabq@reddit
I don't know who was in the wrong here but on an early flight of mine in a 707 variant for the military we were doing pattern work at an airfield in Houston. I was in the observer seat and this poor aircraft commander in training was lined up on final when out of nowhere a C-172 going the opposite direction was climbing out right towards us. It ended up flying over us (we were around 400 ft agl). That was one of the scarier moments for me.
littlelowcougar@reddit
Scary moment for you but I bet that looked cool as shit from the cockpit of the 172!
(Some of my favorite views are transiting LAX/NYC and being above massive A380s on final, looks wild.)
msandovalabq@reddit
Oh I'm sure it was the highlight of that pilot's year. Either way, one of us was going the wrong direction and I'm thinking because we were cleared to land it was probably them. The instructor in our jet was freaking out and I guess I can't blame him.
spacecadet2399@reddit
Flight instructing is one of the most statistically dangerous professions in the western world. If you look on the list of most dangerous professions by number of deaths per year, "pilot" is usually in the top 10. But obviously, airline pilots aren't falling out of the sky every day, so they're actually bringing the average way *down*. Most of those deaths are those flying part 91 in small aircraft. There are non-instructor jobs in that category, but most of the actual danger is to flight instructors. Teaching someone who's brand new to an airplane how to land, or someone who's brand new to multi-engine how to do a VMC demo, is way more dangerous than something like flying cargo or doing aerial surveying. Especially when that kind of instructing is what you're doing day in, day out, multiple times per day.
I instructed up to 1,500 hours, and I was an MEI in addition to CFI and CFII, and then stopped immediately. I think I literally had 1,501 hours when I quit. I'd already had enough near-death experiences. I respect the lifers who do it for their full career, but it is not for me for that reason alone.
RogLatimer118@reddit
My local airport is quite busy and I was training there years ago when it got super busy but did not yet have a tower. It was getting pretty wild and scary. Most of the locals knew the right call points, pattern, etc, but on say a Saturday it would just go crazy with 7 or 8 planes trying to fly the pattern.
Pdbteam@reddit
GA can be terrifying sometimes. I remember doing pattern work and looked at the runway and someone had just landed with no radio calls. The medivac pilots there lit him up!
The scariest by far for me was sitting backseat in a baron since I was bored. A CSEL pilot was training and the instructor pulled with mixture on the right engine. The student promptly stomped on the wrong rudder. I can still hear the instructor screaming “do you want to die” over and over. Not fun
FvKuR0@reddit
I’m about to enter the CFI world and a buddy of mine has some crazy stories of his time in the trenches. Had a guy descend literally right on top of him in the downwind during pattern work and described seeing the other guys tire floating maybe 5-10 feet above him. Another one was an accident at Compton back in 2019 when a warbird was coming in to land and came down on a Cessna 172 ahead of him. Decapitated the student pilot and chopped a six inch gash through the CFIs left shoulder.
Recent-Day3062@reddit
When you land on a carrier a whole dedicated team of experts are supporting you. It would be quite impossible for someone to violate your airspace.
I’ve just started lessons at a class D airport. When I was young I flew a lot st a small uncontrolled airport with a friend who taught me the basics. I would describe it as mostly men in their mid 40s to older who just wanted to tool around. They got super complacent and probably lacked a bunch of training. So they didn’t use checklists, couldn’t use navigation and just flew 100% visual, made bad weather judgements (done st work at 5, at airport by 5:30, thunderstorms due at 7 incOhio where you have wild thunderstorms - they’d try to squeeze in an hour before weather like that.
And they all seemed to be loose on the idea of the pattern and comms. Everyone would be landing one way on Unicom, and they’d look at the wind sock, start a landing opposite, and briefly announce it while people were taking off.
Ok_Witness179@reddit
Yeah... This, but in the south with thunderstorms lol. I walked out of the flight school to watch a storm, and found the chief out there with a radio. It's already raining on the far end of the runway, and his student is on final. Apparently it was the students first solo...
Got a new job shortly after. Few days before I started, a plane with 3 or 4 CFIs crashed on the end of the runway. Decided to take off directly into a thunderstorm. All survived, but based on the condition of the plane, they probably have back problems lol.
crimedog58@reddit
I’d rather fly into KATL at rush hour than Jack Edwards on a sunny Saturday.
ronerychiver@reddit
100%. In military flying, you don’t know if someone out there’s trying to kill you, but you probably have good intel about how and where they’re gonna try to do it.
Instructing, especially as a new instructor, the person trying to kill you is sitting right next to you and you know they’re going to but don’t know how or when. As you get more experience, you become much more predictive of when and how but that doesn’t mean that your ass doesn’t jump into your throat from time to time.
DrScienceSpaceCat@reddit
I remember when I was 19 and a student we had gotten the go ahead to land, another student misheard and thought they were clear so as we were descending another plane descends as it flies over us, it felt like it was 20 feet away.
My instructor never reported it and at the time I was too timid to say anything myself, pretty sure he was trying to protect one of his coworkers jobs.
blizzue@reddit
Usually it’s other people trying to kill you. When you’re an instructor the person trying to kill you is sitting next to you.
bustervich@reddit
I was on final with a flight student running the landing checklist when we got flown over by a random R-44 about 100 feet above us. I didn’t see it until it was almost on top of us, I have no idea if the R-44 saw us and my student never saw it.
I’ve had plenty of oh shit moments flying in the military but some random dude flying GA right next to an airfield with no radios or ADSB is one of the things that keeps me up at night.
Wasatcher@reddit
I think my scariest so far is when I was with a student on downwind about to turn base. Some old dude made a call he was entering a left base, I look out the right window and it's filled up by a Skylane pointed at us.
Apparently a lot of the older folks were taught to enter the pattern on a base instead of a 45 back in the day. That was his first radio call too.
LikenSlayer@reddit
Military pilot & I Confirm!!!
Nothing worse than civilian air patrol flying around with no ADSB while new students doing Solo XC
angryshark@reddit
Early in my PPL training, we were in the pattern following another student who suddenly decided to do a 360. In no time flat, we were head on and had to dive away. We left the area and came back when everyone had gone.
West-Organization450@reddit
Super Hornet pilot? I’m guessing you haven’t learned to flare for landing yet! Just kidding…my grandpa flew off carriers too. I couldn’t resist!
redditburner_5000@reddit
I believe it. All but one of my almost-midairs were in controlled airspace where we were all talking to ATC.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I had a chat yesterday after landing with my Flight instructor and I asked him what was the most “scary moment” of his career since he used to fly the F/A18 Super Hornet in a carrier as well and surprisingly he told me that most of his “scary” moments happened actually during flight lessons with his students because some other people in the airfield don’t communicate or look properly out of the windows while flying VFR and end up cutting each others flight patterns that can lead to dangerous collision.
He then told me that he felt way more safe while doing dog fights trainings against other fighter jets like F-22’s lol, I was pretty impressed to hear this.
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