Germany and Ukraine seal 'Europe's largest' drone deal
Posted by polymute@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 25 comments
Posted by polymute@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 25 comments
historydude1648@reddit
German TV Shows Nazi Symbols on Helmets of Ukraine Soldiers
In a ZDF report on the fragile cease-fire in eastern Ukraine, images were shown of soldiers wearing combat helmets with SS insignia and swastikas.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/german-tv-shows-nazi-symbols-helmets-ukraine-soldiers-n198961
i guess Germans dont really mind, as long as they are making money
Eexoduis@reddit
There were Nazis in Azov volunteer in 2014 this is old news. There are still Nazis in Azov today just like there are Nazis in Ukrainian and Russian armies. How is this relevant
Chroma_primus@reddit
In case you missed it your report is over a decad old by now.
Jersey_2019@reddit
I wouldn't mind to if I made billions
CluelessExxpat@reddit
This is basically virtue signaling. Long-range strike drones or the so called "flamingo" cruise missiles; these are just re-painted missiles provided by Europe to Ukraine. Pretext is that Ukraine is manufacturing these themselves so in case one day Russia loses it and decides to strike the manufacturing factory, likely in Europe, they can play dumb to public.
Anyway, Ukraine itself is an open market when it comes to Russia's strike capabilities. This production, as all others are, will happen in Germany. And Germany certainly do not need Ukraine's know-how in any kind of drone design. Before NATO's involvement in training Ukraine's army and command structure, Ukraine was losing cities left and right to Russia.
Germany's historical and deep establishment-rooted hate towards Russia is so weird. From a geopolitical perspective, it is the US and China that is absolutely killing Germany and its economy at the moment. Yet all efforts being poured against Russia while China is continueing to utilize cheap energy from Russia to further improve its industrial base and market share in heavy industry products.
What do i know though? Perhaps a Russia that could not defeat Ukraine after 4 years is indeed a major threat to Europe that could steamroll it in 15 days.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
The risk is not Russia steamrolling all of Europe, it's Russia occupying much of the Baltics where connections to Europe are the narrow Suwalki corridor and the Baltic sea in range of Russian weaponry from Kaliningrad. Also as abyssmal as Russia's army is, largely reduced to human wave assaults, they have expertise in drone warfare in which Europe is woefully behind. Also, the invasion would be a real test of NATO's resolve, and say if the US actually commits to its obligation of defending its allies. European states aren't yet in a place where they can necessarily fight on their own from the start with full effectiveness.
ForskinEskimo@reddit
We still repeating the whole “human wave assaults” thing in 2026? We still using Germany ww2 propaganda 80+ years later?
The fact that drone usage happens in conjunction with infantry means it’s automatically combined arms warfare (I mean, I don’t fully agree that drones fall under air power but w/e), and that’s beyond the demonstrated fact that “human wave assaults” are largely not happening and never much happened on either side.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
The Russian army works in two castes, you have the more professional combined arms forces as you refer to, with drone units like the Rubicon, or soldiers who've actually had training like marines or the vdv. These are forces which do more mopping operations.
Then you have the the storm battalions, the poor souls signing a contract who are given minimal training, and are told to assault Ukrainain positions head on through infiltration and straight up human wave assaults. Their sole purpose is to go to Ukrainian positiosn and reveal Ukrainian positions, so that the professional forces can then mop up those discovered positions. These storm battalions are what I'm refering to with the meat waves, because that's what they are. Literal human waves to reveal the Ukrainian positions for the professional forces to mop up. This position is even worse for these storm troopers, because Ukrainian drones are now wiping out over half ot them before they ever reach a Ukrainian positions.
A perfect example of this two caste system of the Russian army is the case of the pro war mil blogger going by the nickname 13th. He belonged to this professional cast, being more in the backline of forces, until he publically went against the Kremlin. Not long after his socials like telegram went quiet, and as per sources within his unit, he was transfered to the storm battalions and sent to die against Ukrainian drones, as part of the meatwave.
The Russian military is built around this very reality. Those with money or connections pay their officers so that they are kept in the rear. The officers in charge of these units genuinely hate the very soldiers they are sending their deaths, so they can check a bureaucratic balance sheet of ordered offensives to please the higher ups.
This is the glorious "second army in the world", where the whole military revolves around a caste of storm troopers whose only purpose is to die so Ukrainain positions are revealed, so the professional forces can do the mopping up, including the drone units. There is no glorious combined arms, there is human waves followed by the professional units.
ForskinEskimo@reddit
Russia’s expenditure of prisoners, convicts, and lesser trained conscripts (a minority of total in theater manpower) into “storm units” is still a small fraction of the war since the overwhelming majority are contract soldiers.
Those type of units were used primarily in Bakhmut (Wagner) and Avdiivka (“penal” units). The reason they were mainly used in those 2 settings is they were effectively modern fortresses, and the at the end of the day it’s the infantry that takes a building/trench, not armor, airpower, or artillery (which were still present at both). Morbidly, if you need to choose to send a prisoner or regular to probe a defensive line, you send the prisoner.
Probing attacks, trench assaults, and frontal attacks are all elements of war that will result in high casualties. Even done by storm units, those were still done in a combined-arms capacity with UAVs, drones, artillery and armor support. The fact that better trained formations came in afterwards doesn’t change the doctrinal nature of it.
If you want a genuine “human wave assault” that would be Ukraines attempted crossing of the Dnipr. Unsupported infantry in inflatables ferried onto the enemy bank into triangulated artillery.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
Those human waves are done using those Russian soldiers who sign voluntary contracts. They are very commonly used in hot sectors. The difference with Wagner is that they're hired by the Russian army rather than Wagner.
There's more than plenty of cases of Russians sending men on assaults weeks after they sign a contract. The Russians are so hungry for these expendable meatwave men that they will look at a contract soldier who stated himself to have specialized skills, who was then immediately sent to a storm detachment becayse an officer needed to fill a quota. The blogger known as 13th was sent to such a storm battalion last month.
ForskinEskimo@reddit
I think fundamentally we don’t agree on what a “human wave assault” is.
At least with how often Russia gets labeled with it, the idea of “human assault waves” is a myth derived from ww2 propaganda during and after the war (by a bunch of nazi apologists and glazers no less). Functionally, almost no modern warfare operations can doctrinally or practically be classified as such.
A breakthrough action with only infantry and the aim of victory through it alone is a “human wave assault”. Again, that literally never happens. It is militarily near impossible to succeed with that. It is not small unit tactics, infiltration, attritional warfare backed by standard formations, reconnaissance in force, urban assault, trench assaults, frontal assaults. All those things Russia does with even undertrained units are doctrinal not a human wave since they all have supporting elements or multi-phase
I genuinely struggle to think of a legitimate “human wave assault” in a modern context. Maybe the Iran-Iraq war IRRG+Basij infantry assaults.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Europe is not behind Russia when it comes to drone warfare. It is the Europe that is providing the long range strike UAVs to Ukraine. Furthermore, Starlink is a major factor in the effectiveness of drones. Europe has that while Russia does not.
Again, I am struggling to understand how Russia's military is going to take over Baltics. 5 years and they are yet to take Donbas region. Not even Ukraine, the freaking Donbas region.
I am not even going into the facts like Ukraine having no access to ballistic missiles and a proper air force. Despite that, the amount of damage they inflicted behind the frontlines is significant.
There is absolutely no threat to Europe from Russia's conventional military to Europe.
Beat_Saber_Music@reddit
The Russians have experience, the Europeans do not. The German army in 1940 invading France for example was battle hardened from just the brief experience in Poland and Spain, they knew how to do combined arms warfare. In this field Europe is simply at a disadvantage. Also Putin in his utmost desire to not end war because his reign relies on its continuation, would be more than happy to push Belarus into the conflict. Europe would not fall, but a drone supported Russian spearhead from Grodno Belarus to Suwalki could very plausibly cause a localised collapse of Nato lines simply because Nato forces aren't truly acquainted with drone warfare. You more than easily could see several Nato convoys just simply wiped out by drones because the commanders on the ground don't fully comprehend drones. The Baltics may not fully fall, but they would be left in ruins by warfare in places like Vilnius, perhaps Kaunas, Daugavplis, Tarto and Narva.
The Russians in this case would be a cornered animal in a sense because of Putin's desperation to remain in power. We could see say a Paraguay or Germany 1945 situation where the Russians keep fighitng a hopeless battle in the Baltics simply because the only option for Putin is to keep the war going, and he's an expert in crushing internal dissent. Currently he thinks that he can take the Donbass by August. He lives in his own reality, if he thinks he can keep fighitng the Baltics too, he will do it to keep himself in power.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
I don't know what to say. I don't agree with a single word you wrote.
Needless to say we don't see eye to eye when it comes to Russia's conventional military capabiliies.
mayorofdumb@reddit
The commanders understand drones....
ukezi@reddit
Flamingo is a Ukrainian built and designed missile driven by a Soviet turbofan. It probably uses western electronics as does about every missile from both sides. AFAIK there is some fuel production for it in Denmark but that's it, so I wouldn't call them provided by Europe in any way.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Really? Are you sure its not FP-5 missile of Milanion Group from UK?
ukezi@reddit
Maybe, maybe not. It could certainly be based on it. However if it is, it's a modification and it's produced in Ukraine. I wouldn't call that provided.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
I suppose you also believe Fire Point is indeed manufacturing 3 missiles per day?
ukezi@reddit
Do you have evidence that they aren't?
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Yes. They fire like 1 or 2 missiles every month.
_Kiith_Naabal_@reddit
It's the English FP-5 copy and pasted.
polymute@reddit (OP)
This deal does double-to-triple duty. It strengthens the European MIC and works against our dependence on US military tech while drawing on and further integrating into the EU defense networks as well as strengthening the internationally sought after Ukrainian drone warfare industry and expertise (as seen in the Iran war).
Chroma_primus@reddit
Couldn't have said it better we are lucky that ukraine is willing to shre the tech of modern warefare with us.
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