Did you know: Casting a Black actress as Helen of Troy does not conflict with Ancient Greek concepts of Identity ?
Posted by anon58588@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 22 comments
Ancient Greek society did not operate with a modern concept of race based on biology or skin color.
Identity was primarily Cultural and Linguistic (Greek vs. barbaros).
Greek sources, especially Homer, portray Aithiopes positively
describing them as pious, devoutly religious ( ευλαβής, ευσεβής)
and favored by the Gods
The backlash comes from projecting modern racial ideas onto Ancient Greece.
Ancient Greeks didn’t think in terms of biological race.
The modern concept of race emerged as a product of the colonial enterprises of European powers
from the 16th to 18th centuries which identified race in terms of skin color and physical differences.
Ancient Greek's main divide was Hellen (Greek: Ἕλλην) vs. Barbaros (language and culture), not skin color.
A Persian could be a barbarian - an African could be admired.
In Homer, Aithiopes (Africans) are beloved by the Gods
Zeus (Δίας) feasts with them.
Iliad 1.423–424:
Zeus is absent from Olympus because he has gone to feast with the “blameless Aithiopes.”
«Ζεὺς γὰρ ἐς Ὠκεανὸν μετ᾽ ἀμύμονας Αἰθιοπῆας / χθιζὸς ἔβη κατὰ δαῖτα, θεοὶ δ᾽ ἅμα πάντες ἕποντο.» (1.423–424)
Odyssey 1.22–24:
The Gods are described as visiting the Aithiopes at the edges of the world for sacrificial feasts.
ἀλλʼ ὁ μὲν Αἰθίοπας μετεκίαθε τηλόθʼ ἐόντας
(Αἰθίοπας τοὺς διχθὰ δεδαίαται, ἔσχατοι ἀνδρῶν,
οἳ μὲν δυσομένου Ὑπερίονος, οἳ δʼ ἀνιόντος),
Casting a Black actress as Helen does not conflict with ancient Greek concepts of identity .
It reflects modern racial thinking, not ancient Greek views.
Affectionate_Heat_25@reddit
I’m just upset they don’t cast Greeks and Cypriots even more Mediterranean peoples like Egyptians Tunisians, Lebanese etc
Zinc-Roof_22@reddit
I got even more upset when I found out the film was shot locally, in Greece.
Seriously, how could Nolan not pick any of thousands of Mediterranean actors instead?
FireFistVI@reddit
I find it so funny people saying a black actress shouldn't play a Greek character and they say nothing about a bunch of white people playing Greek characters.
Zinc-Roof_22@reddit
Do you assume "white" means Nordic?
FireFistVI@reddit
Not before the 1900s
Elegant-Quality5890@reddit
Genealogy was as much a part of the Hellenic identity as culture and language and Aithiopes were not considered Hellenic. Obviously modern conceptions of race were different (as was sexuality, gender, etc) but casting Helen as Lupita is as non-Hellenic as casting Damon. Your argument is as dishonest as the people arguing that she should have been cast as an Anglo-Saxon actor.
What your post does do is emphasise the importance of culture and language. And modern Greeks have culture and linguistic continuity AND have been completely left out of the cast. That is the problem - not the racist dogwhistle arguing Helen should be white.
It’s obviously not pragmatic to argue the entire cast should be Greek/Mediterranean but if you’re going to continually pillage and commercialise their history, at least raise up some of the actors and below the line crew and give back a little.
treebeard87_vn@reddit
Would you find someone who calls for blacks, regardless of their actual connection to South Africa/
African country or region in question, to be chosen or at least prioritized over whites, when casting Nelson Mandela or Shaka Zulu, racist? I agree that casting a Greek and a Northern European are not the same (despite the Indo-European linguistic and pantheon connections), but this kind of criticism from rightwing or right leaning people is kind of the reaction to the whole established black-white representation/cultural appropriation premise that is not created by them. And I must tell you as a Vietnamese most of the times I don't like to be lumped together with all other types of Asians either.
North_Cobbler@reddit
Let's talk about how Tom Holland isn't Greek. Oh and Matt Damon. You are all so concerned about Lupita, but it's a movie about a story. People are freaking about Helen because she's being played by a black woman.
Curl4Girls@reddit
The biggest problem that i see with Helen being african is that she is supposed to represent greek beauty. Also Its Hollywood slop to be seen as more inclusive because hollywood is run by progressive weirdos.
Lonely-Programmer123@reddit
Citizenship depended in many places to be from [insert city] descent.
In Athen for exemple laws were passed so only those who were athenians from both their parents would be citizens.
So a black Greek while not entirety impossible (because although hard to obtain, citizenship could be granted to a select few worthy of the title) it would have raised more than an eyebrow back then.
But as you said, Nolan is pandering to modern views.
Personally I think history pieces shouldn't do that; but that isn't even my main grudge with the pile of shit that'll be projected on screen.
THAT FUCKING SHITTY ARMOR IN THE TRAILER IS !
Pantolonun_Utulusu@reddit
Homeros clearly explains how Helen of Troy looks. (White armed and lovely haired.) A black skinned person cannot be white armed for obvious reasons. And she clearly does not have lovely hair.
Therefore what we most fans of the source material don’t like is Nolan extremely ignoring this.
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
The issue isn’t whether an African could become ethnically assimilated in Ancient Greece.
The issue is that Helen of Troy was an ethnically Greek woman whose beauty was worth waging a war over. Lupita Nyongo is neither capable of passing as an ethnically Greek woman nor is she attractive enough for that role.
And to be honest the casting for Helen is the least concerning thing about the movie. It’s not even top 20 of the biggest issues.
Arge_Deianira@reddit
I don't like this trend at all...
tipoftheiceberg1234@reddit
Yes but no one ones saying that. Everything you said is right.
Helen of Troy did not have that dark of skin tone back then. She was probably some form of tan, but not subsaharan African black with 4c hair like what you see in the photo. People are mad because they know they chose a black actress to make a point - which in this case reads as huge agenda pushing.
If it really doesn’t matter what skin color someone is when playing a movie - why not let a white guy play Michael Jordan in a biopic? It’s just clearly trying to say something where nothing needs to be said and people are being smarty pabts for no reason
mIDDLESSS@reddit
Fuck off
anon58588@reddit (OP)
Και εσυ και η μάνα σου
Elmalukat@reddit
Creating a comment so I can see the rest in the morning
anon58588@reddit (OP)
If this post causes a negative reaction, I will delete it
ronweasly9@reddit
Ugh , what a joke
Zinc-Roof_22@reddit
Many of us don't mind casting any one character as black.
What we mind is the systematic representation of Greek figures as black, because it eradicates us as a people.
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
belabacsijolvan@reddit
yes