Australian Carbon-fibre wheel maker Carbon Revolution lost $347 million over four years
Posted by kstetter@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 128 comments
Biscuitsandgravy101@reddit
How is carbon wheels an 8 figure market?
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit
Most of them don't even look that good honestly.
punksnotdeadtupacis@reddit
It’s not about how they look. It’s about mass
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit
Seems like for performance, most brands are siding with Magnesium wheels.
punksnotdeadtupacis@reddit
We’re not talking Audi, bmw, Mercedes performance, we talking supercar level
LongjumpingLock5875@reddit
F1 uses Magnesium wheels...
lee1026@reddit
Is it just a rules thing, or are carbon allowed but not used?
Mental_Medium3988@reddit
but not Magnussan drivers
mikkelr1225@reddit
It's Magnussen, he is not fucking swedish.
punksnotdeadtupacis@reddit
I’d say that’s a safety thing.
apoctank@reddit
Suck my balls mate
wearymicrobe@reddit
Magnesium has always been the standard because it’s easy to check for cracks and rebarrel in a three piece. I love my carbon wheels in my motorcycle and the three lb difference, over the magnesium option, it is worth the pain of dealing with them. In a track car I would never even consider anything but carbon barrels due to the weight and hitting the edge while trying to wrangle a wide slick onto them.
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Mag wheels are also a lot tougher. You can throw them around a race trailer without any fear of damaging them.
Tripp723@reddit
I never knew they were called mags because they are made of magnesium. Til!
Informal-Rock-2681@reddit
WTF. I've been car-obsessed since the 80s and love checking out wheel designs, and never realised this before now!
airfryerfuntime@reddit
There are also a lot of 'mags' that are actually aluminum. Most 'slot mags' are aluminum. It kind of depends on what you're talking about.
Guac_in_my_rarri@reddit
Mag wheels present signs of failure before they do. Carbon just snaps-like your ex, and there's no consistent presentable signs. Only way to use carbon wheels correctly is replace them on a very specific time frame fer under the typical duty rate. Which costs money.
Brentg7@reddit
magnesium is great, as long you dont have a blowout and grind it on the road to long. magnesium's real fun when it catches fire. there's a reason they don't really use them in racing anymore.
Skensis@reddit
Even then, outside of like top tiers of racing going with forged aluminum is just easier and cheaper.
lee1026@reddit
I am surprised that the car carbon wheel industry even started in Australia. The bike world have been on carbon forever, and most of that is in Taiwan.
therealflinchy@reddit
they *did* well to the public a decade ago, used to be able to buy the cr-9 directly from them. they pivoted to pure OEM direct to big brands eventually and that sucks.
gimpwiz@reddit
Let's be real, how many people are buying CF wheels because of the difference in the car's performance due to weight that they can actually achieve? And how many do it for bragging rights and looks? Looks do matter, especially on a street car.
fmjintervention@reddit
Carbon Revolution doesn't really sell to consumers, they're not an aftermarket wheel brand like Work or BBS etc. They sold wheels on contracts to manufacturers like Lamborghini
YesIlBarone@reddit
It's about practicality, curbing replacement cost
Brentg7@reddit
unsprung mass to be specific. worst place to have it.
w00stersauce@reddit
Like the ones on the mustang dark horse are downright fugly.
Oldnbold22@reddit
Each wheel is $25k
krackenracer@reddit
No they aren’t.
Oldnbold22@reddit
Some are. It's a $104,000 option for a Koenisegg for example.
doctorcapslock@reddit
good info have in the back of my head, thanks
bse50@reddit
That includes Koenigsegg's markup though.
Oldnbold22@reddit
They're definitely not selling them for cost.
Biscuitsandgravy101@reddit
Maybe as the retail price for top brands, which makes it even harder to believe that they lost this amount of money.
colin_staples@reddit
Because you need to replace them whenever you hit a pothole?
I'd be going through 50 wheels a year
8aller8ruh@reddit
Most beneficial place to lose weight is on any spinning part of the drivetrain… only visible part of this is the wheels. 1lb of drivetrain weight is equivalent to losing ~4lbs of weight anywhere else.
BrunoEye@reddit
It's not about spinning, it's about unsprung mass. It makes your suspension move slower and lowers its resonant frequencies.
Drunken_Hamster@reddit
It's both, actually. Hence why lightweight flywheels, driveshafts, and camshafts are also important.
windowpuncher@reddit
Ehhhhh kinda, different purposes. Having less unsprung mass and parts with less angular momentum are both beneficial, but for different reasons.
gimpwiz@reddit
"Rotating unsprung mass" is a category encompassing both. And it's a fantastic place to cut weight.
8aller8ruh@reddit
Both matter for different reasons.
lique_madique@reddit
They were an OEM for Ford, GM, Ferrari, and others.
cookingboy@reddit
20% of that is the initial sales and the rest is from repair cost and insurance claims /s
airfryerfuntime@reddit
Speculation, and a new culture of people who will invest in literally fucking anything.
Potato_Farmer_Linus@reddit
Not justifying any specific valuation, but imagine you convince a few super luxury car makers to stick them on all their super premium options packages, and require they be replaced due to age and/or mileage every few years. Profit
DarthBrooks69420@reddit
Well, except these guys.
YellowFogLights@reddit
It isn’t. It’s a negative 9-figure market.
kstetter@reddit (OP)
It's used by sports cars
NoodlesRomanoff@reddit
Certain race car classes require a single source for wheels. It can be a lucrative market, but if you don’t get the entire race multi-season contract, you are so screwed.
Biscuitsandgravy101@reddit
That much money can develop the whole sports car
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
Probably propped uo my investors and OEMs.
Stexen@reddit
I've rashed every wheel I've ever had, I couldn't imagine the anxiety of owning $10000 wheels
rugbyfiend@reddit
I haven’t read the article, however I was under impression their difficulties started after a PE buyout who then fucked everything up. Someone more knowledgeable please correct me.
therealflinchy@reddit
>The company is currently undergoing a restructuring supported by its senior secured lender, private equity firm Orion Infrastructure Capital (OIC), aiming to emerge as a private company.
bingo.
ShadowInTheAttic@reddit
Assuming low yield / high scrap rate??? Or maybe the initial investment being high??
aprtur@reddit
Says right in the middle of the article:
So a combination of:
A.) too low of volume, too low of low profit margin, high operational cost (apparently general cost management from the quote, not necessarily just scrap losses - this could be shipping cost, material contract cost, machinery cost...any number of things) B.) high labor cost in Australia
therealflinchy@reddit
even the labour costs wouldn't be anywhere near 35-40mil a year, and they lost what, *97 million* in a single year. The scale of the headcount alone is bizarre, but the scale of the loss makes even less sense, losing between double and triple their labour cost in a single year somehow? And they would have made tens of millions in sales so that's an annual operation cost WELL north of 100mil?
Weird_Tower76@reddit
Looks like they made the C8 Z06 carbon wheels considering the first photo, pretty cool. Impressive the amount of money that managed to burn though, holy fuck.
Tyraid@reddit
Getting tires changed on those rims has been a massive headache for C8 owners. A lot of dealerships are refusing to service them forcing owners to go to Ferrari dealerships and the like to find places that have experience.
Weird_Tower76@reddit
No shit? Thats wild. All my fellow Z06 owners I know have the aluminum wheels, myself included, so probably why I've never heard of that.
AboutToSnap@reddit
Honestly the only time I’ve seen them in person was on a ZR1 - I hear they’re more or less made of glass on the street
therealflinchy@reddit
I know a few BMW guys who've had the CR9 since they first launched in 2012, still running them, tens to hundreds of thousands of miles and no faults
AgentScreech@reddit
I have them. Just burned through the cup2Rs last weekend. I'm likely just going to put the aluminum ones back on and store the carbon ones. I don't feel like dealing with finding a reliable spot that will put on new tires
Oldest_Boomer@reddit
How the F did an Aussie company go that big and that hard on wheels. Holy shit.
brackfriday_bunduru@reddit
Australia has always been into wheel technology. Holden developed RTS in the 70’s and used to test tyres for manufacturers so they’d perform better in Australia. They also used to use directional tyres.
They also used to design wheels for HRT.
kstetter@reddit (OP)
Aussies engineer some of the best crazy shit in the world when given the opportunity.
Give them a boring German car and they will make it one of the best sports sedans in the world, the Holden Commodore.
Good_Air_7192@reddit
The only thing a Commodore had going for it was a big V8. Except for the utes, they were sick.
kstetter@reddit (OP)
That was Holden's specialty, slamming a V8 into small European cars.
Good_Air_7192@reddit
They designed the whole Commodore in Australia, it wasn't a European car. The engine was from GM.
noisymime@reddit
Which one? The VE was the first Commodore chassis actually designed in Aus, all the ones before that were modified European chassis. The drivetrains on all of them from the VS on-wards were all GM, nothing Aussie about them.
dsoshahine@reddit
The Commodore wasn't but the car and platform it was based on absolutely was.
kstetter@reddit (OP)
The original VB was a combination of European cars, with an Australian engine, the VS it was based on the Omega but changed a lot.
The VE is when the whole Commodore was designed in Australia with an engine from GM.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
*VT 🤓 I know, but the third gen commodore's start with the VT.
FalconTurbo@reddit
It was also a spacious 5 seater with a full sized boot, comfortable to do the long drives that Australians have needed to do forever, and was half the price of an equivalently powered import.
Also, don't knock the V6. It was a solid engine and cost less to run.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
That's reason why Camaro chosen Zeta platform when it firstly came back.
Riverrattpei@reddit
They were the first one to make one piece carbon fibre rims and became the OEM supplier for damn near everyone from Ford to Ferrari
Thee_Sinner@reddit
I thought koenigsegg was first?
FalconTurbo@reddit
I believe Koenigsegg were the first to do it in house.
AeBlueSadi@reddit
that's your problem right there these aussie guys did it in a factory
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Even worse, OZ govt and local most people don't care any shit about their local manufacturing, and most just want to heavily rely import cheap things from cheap world without any protection for local industry.
No wonder local auto industry now gone, and local auto supplies are disappearing. Doing any business about car is a bad choice there.
noisymime@reddit
Welcome to global auto manufacturing. Either you get government subsidies or you'll struggle to compete will all the other manufacturers that do get them.
_cronic_@reddit
Because of the way resources are divided around the word and way too many other things to go into in the size of a reddit post, industry in general is cheaper in some places than others - and to bring ALL industry internal to your own country to prevent trade or reliance on any other foreign influence (Isolationist), would be too expensive. So expensive that no one could afford to pay for it.
Some things just don't exist in land you control - which has been a huge factor in conflicts in the past. The reason things have gone the way they have, is that people in general have become smarter, relationships have become smoother and trade agreements have benefited each country as a net positive.
Unfortunately, people are forgetting what it was like to be isolationist - how difficult it was for the populace and WHY they had to stop being isolationists.
Pitiful-Mobile-3144@reddit
I’m not surprised. CFRP has high material costs, high labor costs, and defects are irreparable which leads to more high costs. If they used different weaves and epoxies per customer needs, that would account for economy of scale plus high R&D and tooling costs as well.
Carbon Fiber is, overall, an amazing material, but it’s absolutely not cheap nor easy to produce at scale, only the ultra high end supercar world and major aerospace companies are the ones really doing it as far as I know, a boutique rim manufacturer in a very high cost of living and remote area never stood a chance
IamLeven@reddit
It’s pretty common on consumer bikes. A lot of bikes are made from carbon and so are the wheels.
Considering you can get a carbon bike wheel for $500.
start3ch@reddit
There’s a whole lot less carbon in a bicycle wheel then a car wheel. The forces involved are least 10x if you just consider weight alone, and the price of carbon car wheels is right aorund $5k per wheel, so that checks out.
IamLeven@reddit
Have you've seen what DH bikes go through? Being able to take a drop from 20+ feet on jagged rocks. Tires aren't as strong and have a lot lower pressure. Its more likely that a bike wheel will be hitting the ground directly vs a car wheel which will almost never. At the high end 3k wheels aren't unheard and lightweights cost 5k each.
superspeck@reddit
I have a friend that does custom carbon fiber bike gear as a hobby/craft and it has taken him a crazy long time to get good, and even after he’s gotten good, he says he basically makes three parts for every one that’s sellable.
fishymamba@reddit
I'm guessing scale is an issue. Lots more carbon bikes out there than car wheels. Also margins on bikes are probably pretty crazy. Got a supersix last year used for like $1300
Spencie61@reddit
Much simpler loading and geometry, that’s how it works
Ok-Response-839@reddit
The article doesn't go into detail, probably because many of the details aren't public. But this specific company lost a tonne of money because Ford backed out of a $350M supply deal. CR hired a bunch of people and re-tooled their factory specifically for the Ford deal, only to have them pull the plug at the last minute. AFAIK they weren't able to recover any of the costs.
Source: family member works for CR (although probably for not much longer, they have been making everyone redundant).
RevvCats@reddit
Yeah and for a fraction of the price you can get magnesium alloy wheels that are only a few lbs heavier. Now sure any rotating weight savings is good but you’re at the point where the vast majority of people aren’t good enough drivers to notice the difference.
YalamMagic@reddit
Magnesium wheels can often be even lighter because you can optimise their geometry better than you can on carbon wheels. For example, you can't make I beam wheel spokes on carbon wheels.
rsta223@reddit
Of course you can. It's just a matter of how complex you want to make it.
YalamMagic@reddit
Well I haven't seen it done by any of the top carbon wheel manufacturers so even if it's technically possible it practically isn't
zeromadcowz@reddit
Aside from automotive and aerospace carbon fiber is produced at scale for a lot of equipment for sports like cycling, golf, and hockey.
AUSSIE_MUFFIN@reddit
Not surprised at all, had a mate who worked there and said the place was managed incredibly poorly.
HiTork@reddit
I wonder if this is a possible reason why the carbon fibre wheel option on the Mustang Dark Horse appears to have been discontinued this model year (the company has been insolvent since late 2025), aside from low demand maybe.
Ok-Response-839@reddit
Funnily enough it's the other way round: CR lost a tonne of money because Ford pulled out of a huge deal at the last minute. CR had spent millions re-tooling their factory and hiring more staff specifically for the Ford deal.
RealDrGreen@reddit
Trying to give people reasons to step up to the Dark Horse SC
amandatoryy@reddit
Are those by someone else?
aprtur@reddit
Same company
dontworryaboutit1295@reddit
Yea tbh makes perfect sense. I don't know anyone else supplying ford with CF rims.
Energy4Days@reddit
Best believe someone/some people pocketed the money
GolfGodsAreReal@reddit
That's what happens when you try to reinvent the wheel
ClosedL00p@reddit
How did they have that to lose in the first place? Did the company start when they stumbled across a pirate chest with $350,000,000 in it??
LLMprophet@reddit
They became multi millionaires...
by starting with a billion :(
TurboFucked@reddit
Probably investments from their customers + government funds.
Hrmerder@reddit
Markets blah blah, it's never about the money you made, it's about the money you made COMPARED to last quarter.
Hrmerder@reddit
Ba dum tsssss
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
I can see it. I remember the wheels for the GT350R were like $10k or something crazy per wheel. The wheels alone were a bit less than half the value of the whole car, and they were so fragile too.
I wouldn't want them on my car.
420Aquarist@reddit
They were 2500 a piece and 10k for all 4
BWFTW@reddit
I remember people talking about how insane a deal it was on the gt350 and speculating if ford was doing it close to cost because of how new carbon fibre wheels were at the time.
lique_madique@reddit
They were MSRP of 5K per wheel
SecretPantyWorshiper@reddit
Now they are, it was like double the price when it was new
lique_madique@reddit
They were 5K per wheel. They are not fragile. They are actually I credibly strong due to a weave pattern that would self-tighten during impacts. They are just very expensive to repair and require a specialized shop to repair them. I did 30K on mine with no issues. My buddy has 70K Detroit street miles on his carbon 350R without so much as a scratch
thefanciestcat@reddit
That's almost disastrous as a carbon fiber submarine.
NetworkStatic@reddit
Against some extremely light wheels the Carbon Revolution wheels in the same size dont have a large enough weight loss to make sense at $15k a set. When I looked into it a while back they were only 1-2lbs lighter than the extremely light OZ Superforgiata that I have on the car. My Superforgiata were $5k a set. For that much difference in price I can find some other spots to reduce unsprung weight.
DoesntFearZeus@reddit
For a moment there I thought OZ Wheels was also Australian and it was an interesting coincidence also making very light wheels, forgot they were from Italy.
Oldnbold22@reddit
Italian
aprtur@reddit
Not to mention, if you're pursuing track work, wheels are a consumable, so you'd have three sets of the OZs to use versus one of the Carbon Revolution wheels. Absolutely not worth that cost if you're down to 1lb a corner, as like you said, you can find other ways to offset that weight savings in the suspension.
time_alliance@reddit
Carbon fiber wheels are cool but extremely costly to produce.No surprise they’re bleeding this much money.
Car-face@reddit
Sounds like they overcapitalised, and slower transition to EVs (particularly in performance segments) meant revenue didn't materialise.
It's a shame, but it always seemed like a bit of a niche, and dealing with one-piece CF wheels sounds like a pain the moment they get damaged.
Diogenes256@reddit
That sounds more like money laundering.
Atrampoline@reddit
Buying carbon fiber wheels is stupid unless you're insanely rich. And even then it's still a terrible thing to do with a product that absolutely will get damaged.
costafilh0@reddit
And you thought they were too expensive.
Clearly, they weren't expensive enough.
No-Locksmith-9330@reddit
Considering how small the market for Carbon Fibre wheels is, I’m shocked they ever had that much money to lose, and that they also employed 350 people???
They are effectively targeting a market that is a niche within a niche at best.
kabaab@reddit
People just struggle to understand stand how big the global market..
B00marangTrotter@reddit
Crikey!
thedeuce75@reddit
Where did they have it last?