Turkey is about to get some new islands
Posted by Yarrrak31@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 73 comments
What do you think about the increase of Turkish presence in the Aegean Sea?
Self-Bitter@reddit
If you ever bothered reading the said Treaty, although it doesn't really name every-single-islet as of Greek sovereignty it is very clear that Turkey has no sovereignty to any island further than 3nm from the Asian coast.
Which translates that these islands can actually be Icelandic or Cuban or Namimbian or Penguinish.... but they are definitely not Turkish
Gazdanadam@reddit
FYI, the original treaty text in French says "Sauf stipulation contraire du présent Traité, les îles situées à moins de trois milles de la côte asiatique restent placées sous la souveraineté turque." which translates to "Except where a provision to the contrary is contained in the present Treaty, the islands situated at less than three miles from the Asiatic coast remain under Turkish sovereignty". So it doesn't say anything that islands beyond 3 miles aren't under Turkish sovereignity.
Self-Bitter@reddit
ARTICLE 16.
Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
The provisions of the present Article do not prejudice any special arrangements arising from neighbourly relations which have been or may be concluded between Turkey and any limitrophe countries.
Bye
Gazdanadam@reddit
"being settled or to be settled" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. For this same reason Turkey was able to press France on the Hatay matter, and this was with a clear cut border unlike the Aegean. There's no article defaulting all unnamed features to Greece and establishing a boundary.
Self-Bitter@reddit
Have you read my posts above? I said it doesn't name every single islet as sovereignty of Greece or Italy (that is the settlement it refers to) but it clearly states what is Turkish and what is not. And that is islands within 3nm from the Asian coast plus the two islands at the exit of the straits. turkey renounced any right to any island that is not included in the above. There is a definite border for Turkey
(grabbing this occasion: are there treaties that define all islets that belong to Sweden, Canada, Finland, Indonesia , Japan, Norway, Denmark or the Philippines I wonder...) Maybe you should there also for some extra free land
Gazdanadam@reddit
Yes, i have. But you do not seem to understand what "the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned." means, or refers to. You'd be correct to infer that there is a clear boundary only if the treaty set down a clear boundary or listed every feature. However, it doesn't (the three miles is only a positive reservation for Turkey, not an explicit boundary) and thats where the "being settled or be settled" part comes in.
The settlement doesn't refer specifically to settlement between Greece and Italy. It is a general clause that involves all parties to the treaty, including Turkey-Britain (Mosul) and Turkey-France (Hatay), which by the way had an actually clearly defined boundary line unlike the Aegean, yet it still was settled later.
In regards to Sweden and Finland, yes, Fredrikshamn Treaty explicitly gave Aland to Finland, and yet it didn't prevent Sweden from claiming it after WW1. There was also the whole "Pig War" ordeal with Canda and US due to the treaty being interpreted differently. I don't know about other cases, but its not too hard to imagine there were treaties that laid down clear boundaries when territorial changes took place.
Self-Bitter@reddit
You skipped Article 16 again?, that's "a negative preservation", which in combination with the other articles defines the Turkish border (the spirit of the Laussane treaty was to define the borders of the new born Turkish Republic, not others)
Gazdanadam@reddit
Again, you keep missing "the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned." part.
The spirit of Laussane was to define the borders of Turkey, yes. But that also includes the fate of territories that used to belong to the Ottoman Empire. Your argument isn't helped by how the part of the treaty regarding Greek sovereignity over islands reads:
"The decision taken on the 13th February, 1914, by the Conference of London, in virtue of Articles 5 of the Treaty of London of the 17th - 30th May, 1913, and 15 of the Treaty of Athens of the 1st - 14th November, 1913, which decision was communicated to the Greek Government on the 13th February, 1914, regarding the sovereignty of Greece over the islands of the Eastern Mediterranean, other than the islands of Imbros, Tenedos and Rabit Islands, particularly the islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Mytilene, Chios, Samos and Nikaria, is confirmed, subject to the provisions of the present Treaty respecting the islands placed under the sovereignty of Italy which form the subject of Article 15."
While i couldn't find the original text of the "Conference of London", all sources discussing it say "The islands of Lemnos, Samothrace, Lesvos, Chios, Samos, and Ikaria and others under Greek occupation as of 1914" which does raise the question of what happens to islands/islets not occupied by Greek forces.
Self-Bitter@reddit
Article 16 is a renunciation clause. “to be settled by the parties concerned” doesnt mean Turkey keeps sovereignty over every unnamed rock. Also Article 12 says “particularly” the listed islands, not “only”. So the list isnt exhaustive. However the treaty is exhaustive for Turkey; it specifically reserves to Turkey only the islands within 3nm from the Anatolian coast unless stated otherwise. End of story. So the whole structure of Lausanne's clear: near coast islands remain Turkish, the rest dont magically stay Turkish just because every tiny rock wasnt listed one by one in 1923. Otherwise Turkey could claim random tiny islets in the middle of greek island groups far away from Anatolia, even south or west of Crete, which makes no sense.
Thats clearly away from the whole logic and scope of Lausanne, which was meant to settle and close issues after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, not create endless ambiguity. Any map based on that logic would look absurd even to a neutral observer and honestly reveals bad faith motives and revisionism behind these interpretations.
Self-Bitter@reddit
Article 16 is a renunciation clause. “to be settled by the parties concerned” doesnt mean Turkey keeps sovereignty over every unnamed rock. Also Article 12 says “particularly” the listed islands, not “only”. So the list isnt exhaustive. However the treaty is exhaustive for Turkey; it specifically reserves to Turkey only the islands within 3nm from the Anatolian coast unless stated otherwise. So the whole structure of Lausanne's clear: near coast islands remain Turkish, the rest dont magically stay Turkish just because every tiny rock wasnt listed one by one in 1923. Otherwise Turkey could claim random tiny islets in the middle of greek island groups far away from Anatolia which makes no sense .
Successful-Biggy@reddit
Bro the same treaty says Greek maritime can be 3 miles max and greek islands cannot be militarised.
Self-Bitter@reddit
There is minimum army on the islands, they objectively cannot even defend themselves. After all, the right to defend your territory is stated in the UN charter (self-defence rights under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter), especially when Turkey has a massive amphibious forces in its western coast.I wonder why... 3nm was the common practice back then, laws for sea have changed.
Successful-Biggy@reddit
The Lausanne treaty written with exact numbers for each side and the common practices are not mentioned in the treaty so common practice change should not affect it (Check article 6 and 12).
Additionally, article 13 clearly declares islands must stay demilitarised and a small amount of armed forces must stay in the island for self protection. Today, this article is getting violated. Additionally Lousanne treaty has signed before UN so Greece must be aware of what advantages or disadvantages it initial got from the previous treaties and act along with that.
Self-Bitter@reddit
Since I want to know the basis of this discussion, do you agree with what was posted from the OP?
Successful-Biggy@reddit
Islands are there, Grece could take them as well as Turkiye could right ? If Greece did not control those islands yet, that means the islands are not useful for them. If it is not urs and not useful to you, then what can you claim when someone wants those islands, right ?
Additionally, man I have never seen a news like that. Probably it's shitpost.
Self-Bitter@reddit
It surely is a shitpost of course but responses like yours, who cannot simply say "yes the islands are of course Greek and I am ashamed of my compatriots posting this shit" simply validate the nationalistic rot Turkey has become in reality.
Successful-Biggy@reddit
Oh man, as i say before, if the island is not urs, u can't claim anything on that. Greece has the same ability with Turkiye for controlling those island and if you did not do that, u can't blame other one to do that.
Outside_Resist_8319@reddit
Dendias was threatening Turkey with war and Hellenism several days ago. Hellenism in Turkey would mean Izmir area, İstanbul and East Blacksea region to join Greece if you do not know..
I ofcourse not believe those Twitter X sources at all but it is interesting that now we are seeing such things here.
Young_Owl99@reddit
Wtf is Hellenism.
Maybe just maybe you are confusing it with Megali Idea.
puzzledpanther@reddit
We drop a few Helens with parachutes in Anatolia, then have the perfect excuse to come liberate them thus conquering Anatolia. It was a secret plan but the above poster is too smart for us.
Back to the drawing board!
Outside_Resist_8319@reddit
Hellenism for Anatolia is Megali Idea my friend.
Pipimer@reddit
He is an idiot but he never said anything like that, there is no point as from the 20's no Greeks lives in this areas
Outside_Resist_8319@reddit
https://www.mod.mil.gr/en/the-minister-of-national-defence-mr-n-dendias-attends-defea/
In diplomacy context also matters
Pipimer@reddit
He used it to say about Greece/ Cyprus
DimGenn2@reddit
I don't he know what Hellenism is. Hellenism just means greeksness. It's a term we use to refer to greeks worldwide.
Available_Bus_9010@reddit
What is your opinion about this chart?
DimGenn2@reddit
That y'all should just embrace your hellenic roots, and then we can bring peace, freedom, justice, and security to our new empire.
Available_Bus_9010@reddit
Looks like i cant answer you without getting in legally trouble bro. As an highly educated and questioning person, it took a year of inner work and research for me to finding out and accepting my real roots. But i must say majority is never will care the find out reality...
Outside_Resist_8319@reddit
Yes, if we are talking about the general term of Hellenism. But it was actually the core of Megali Idea when it was used in Turkey while Greek-Turkish war and in WWI. And he was openly referring to this when he was warmongering several days ago.
Vaseline13@reddit
Idk how true these news are, but Turkish bots on X have been working on overdrive about this. They've been uploading pictures, videos, and AI slop about the islands 24/7 for 3 days now.
X has been a raigebait competition for years now, and usually it's either a nothing burger or way less radical than originally presented.
We'll see, but from experience I put my chips on Nothing.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Doubt it, but is fun watching Greeks shiver with fear.
No_Idea_479@reddit
Meanwhile, Albanians when a guy speaks Greek in Northern Epirus:
Ujemegaz@reddit
Greek in Italy 🤣
Yavannia@reddit
Every post about Greece you are under it saying something inflammatory, quite sad to be honest...
Ujemegaz@reddit
The OP is about Turkey...
hunichii@reddit
Ohhh you're so edgy
Ujemegaz@reddit
Yes i am edgier than a rock island between Corfu and Saranda 🥴
hunichii@reddit
Yeah I can tell, you're so different and edgy and cool for liking imaginary Turkish threats lmfao
Aristo95@reddit
Nationalist cock-measuring contest amid rapid inflation
technotronica@reddit
If it's really a cock competition Im afraid the Greek are out of their league. Uncut is superior. Better glide, roll, more precum and generally larger.
eleutheromaniann@reddit
how did you measure that there was more precum?
technotronica@reddit
They're just extra juicy and like out there.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Im cut and proud. LOL
technotronica@reddit
Naaaw! Well you shouldn't be ashamed. You didn't have a choice. All the best to you 😘
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
*touches the circumcision scar
" Who hurt you 🥺"
Aristo95@reddit
I wouldn't know, but thanks for sharing. You seem to be expert in the field
technotronica@reddit
Greek cock is superior than Turkish cock. I know by experience. Nothi f like that glorious skin roll and extra precum.
ieradp@reddit
This made me laugh, thanks.
Early-Show2886@reddit
and where is the conection to balkans? again this sub is more and more a greek-turk-albanian sub.
Pipimer@reddit
Last time I check Greece is a Balkan country
DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit
Sharing is caring ❤️
EvilInGood@reddit
We are cooked if they say the same about Anatolia
DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit
Mastermind plan of giving greeks marmara and immediately demanding elections
Pipimer@reddit
Lol Step 1: Give Eastern Thrace to Greece Step 2: Demand elections for Greece so get annexed Step 3: Greece because Turkic because they are 20M Turks in Eastern Thrace and 10 million Greece in all of Greece
DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit
Also erdogan needs votes
Azagak@reddit
What do I think? I think you are definitely underdeveloped.
Fun-Disaster9796@reddit
X
Cuckold News:
BREAKING NEWS
desenformation desenformation desenformation desenformation desenformation desenformation desenformation
koltuklanmis_kargi@reddit
The draft keeps the current 6nm status-quo in the Aegean so far.
Light0fDesire@reddit
why the fuck all the europeans knows better than turks about what turkiye gonna do politically?
if you are believing all the news on x/threats, you should take your medicines.
koltuklanmis_kargi@reddit
It was also on TRT morning news today.
kesqe_@reddit
BurgurluGenc031@reddit
Keep the islands we dont need it. Also wheres tf source.
Early-Show2886@reddit
Well, an Arab or an Anglo-Saxon must have posted this, because Turks don't say "Eid al Adha etc." Turks say *Kurban Bayram* or *Şeker Bayram*.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
They will get curb stomped so highly unlikely.
736384826@reddit
Israel with a red flag
Yarrrak31@reddit (OP)
Is that a compliment?
eleutheromaniann@reddit
this user is larping Turkish. and he is very incompetent.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
every island after 3 mile is greek if im not wrong. What the source anyways.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
They were promised to them since 1071A.D. , insha'Allah.
tabulasomnia@reddit
there is indeed a decision that will be voted by the parliament about the naval rights. it's a meaningless gesture by the administration and will change nothing.
this is however the stupidest way to report this fact.
RasyonelRumi@reddit
I don’t think so. Erdogan is a lot of things, but I don’t think he would do something that reckless. It’s Trump’s second term and he is quite active. While Turkey has tensions with Israel, I don’t think he is the kind of leader who would just go and take 152 islands. But it’s clear that we are trying to achieve more independence in military production.
EvilInGood@reddit
Greece can keep the islands. I don't want our country to keep getting in a political mess. I hope nothing happens.
Open-Employ3158@reddit
Stop using X/twitter as your news sources.