Are nut bans overkill if no one there has a life-threatening nut allergy?
Posted by Arlincornwall@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 162 comments
Curious on other people's thoughts on this.
A school has a nut ban in place.
No one there has a life-threatening allergy but there might be quite a few intolerances going on.
Statutory guidance suggests that nut bans aren't effective because it creates a false sense of security.
No bans for other allergies that people could have - dairy, gluten, shellfish and so on.
Should a school keep a nut ban just in case?
Is changing it just a ton of extra work for staff to change?
How do you then explain to other kids with say a gluten allergy, that they can't have cake with nut flour, but other kids can have cakes with gluten in for example.
Also to clarify... if someone has an allergy where touching a tiny bit of peanut butter or breathing in airbourne particles would cause them to go into anaphylactic shock, I think that's a different conversation. I'm more talking about blanket bans 'to be on the safe side'
ActionBirbie@reddit
It'll be this; Just much easier to have a blanket ban than to collate large amounts of data on each individual child an prepare bespoke things for each of them.
PetersMapProject@reddit
Why do nuts get special treatment when other, equally dangerous, allergies like milk never do?
Because I know someone will quibble with this comment: lactose intolerance and milk [protein] allergy are not the same thing. The latter can be fatal. This boy died at school after another child flicked cheese at him, and it just touched his skin - he didn't eat it https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/may/02/boy-with-allergy-died-cheese-flicked-at-him-london-inquest-told
CrazyPlatypusLady@reddit
This was always my issue. My kid has a life threatening allergy to pineapple. Weird, not on the 14 main allergens etc. But school wouldn't ban that. Wouldn't stop selling pineapple juice in the canteen, even after my kid got injured and ended up in hospital for an evening due to a spill by another student.
Nuts are not the only thing that can kill. Any allergy can kill.
Dimac99@reddit
As you have noted, pineapple isn't one of the main allergens. It can turn up in unexpected places or be mislabelled. There are laws around the labelling of peanuts in food, which don't just help the affected, but help places like schools and hospitals to avoid them too. That's the reason things like peanuts, sesame, milk a and mustard are bolded in ingredient lists.
Banning pineapple is much more difficult because it's harder to spot in the first place and because they couldn't ask parents to restrict it in the same way as nuts, especially given all of the other closely related fruits that might also be or become triggering. Lots of multi juice/tropical squashes contain it, as do many smoothies.
-myeyeshaveseenyou-@reddit
I’m allergic to pineapple, I have to check ice lollies and sweets a lot. A lot of pineapple in both. It’s very annoying
CrazyPlatypusLady@reddit
Check your cosmetics too. A surprising amount contain it.
-myeyeshaveseenyou-@reddit
Never thought of that, thank you I will!!
DoKtor2quid@reddit
That's just not trying. If something is life threatening to one child, we should have a blanket ban while that child is in the school. Change it back once they move on.
They. Might. Die.
DPH996@reddit
Someone above mentioned a kid with milk (protein) allergy died when someone flicked cheese at them. My partner has a serious allergy to all nuts, so I am absolutely sympathetic, but you cannot surely suggest that all dairy for example is banned.
PatientFlatworm7034@reddit
When I was in primary school, we had two kids in younger years who were allergic to dairy (full anaphylaxis) so they went home for lunch but we were banned from bringing dairy into school (so no yogurts, cheese, darylea dunkers or anything like that) we could only have it from the canteen at lunch because the girls were at home and didn't go in the dinner hall
DPH996@reddit
I find that absolutely incredible. I mean… fair play to the school but banning dairy is a hell of a step to take.
PatientFlatworm7034@reddit
Yes, I understand where you're coming from, my primary school was only a small village school with about <60 in a year group so maybe it was slightly easier also most of us had school dinners, the rule just was don't send dairy into school
PositivelyAcademical@reddit
You could make the same argument about blanket bans on nuts though. How else are vegetarians, etc, supposed to maintain a balanced diet?
IMHO, I can understand treating allergens outside the main 14 allergens differently from the main ones; but there should be equal treatment regarding all of the main 14 (either blanket bans “just in case” someone is allergic, or bans when someone who has a specific allergy is present).
DPH996@reddit
Nuts are a largely avoidable food group (I accept your point about vegetarians, but there are other food groups that aren’t nuts). Dairy on the other hand is a much more difficult food group to avoid. With that said, I actually don’t think nuts should receive blanket bans, save for on planes as anyone suffering anaphylactic shock on a plane is basically as good as dead. Anywhere else I think you just have to accept the risk.
CrazyPlatypusLady@reddit
However milk IS one of the main allergens. I don't see any schools banning that either.
Just not selling pineapple juice themselves would have been a start, but no.
All we needed was the bare minimum.
Taken_Abroad_Book@reddit
It would, however, be very easy for the school to not sell it.
-myeyeshaveseenyou-@reddit
Hi I’m also allergic to pineapple. It’s hospitalised me just from drinking a bottle of lilt. Didn’t realise it had actual pineapple. It’s 5% so I roughly 25ml to a 500ml bottle. Found out I was allergic to it after juicing one once and drinking it and my throat closing.
Kaioken64@reddit
Its fucking crazy they valued having pineapple juice in the canteen over your kids life.
Beer-Milkshakes@reddit
Sounds like prime blame/claim material tbh. Willful negligence and ignoring risk etc
GourangaPlusPlus@reddit
We didn't lose thousands of men in the pineapple wars to ban the deink
No_Ring_3348@reddit
I went to school with a girl who would die if she came into contact with eggs. She made it into her 30s which is quite remarkable IMO.
WonFriendsWithSalad@reddit
The comedian Jason Mantzoukas has a similarly severe allergy to eggs
vientianna@reddit
So she was eggsecuted?
(I am so, so, very sorry)
DoKtor2quid@reddit
.....and then she touched an egg? 👀
No_Ring_3348@reddit
Died to a flan. Seriously.
DoKtor2quid@reddit
oh shite, poor woman
eleanor_vance@reddit
Alongside nuts, there's also a ban on fish at my child's school. I'd heard of shellfish allergies before but not fish.
CrazyPlatypusLady@reddit
One of my friends is allergic to fish. She's the only one I've ever met with it.
Active_Definition_57@reddit
I have a colleague who's allergic to fish, shellfish and nuts. As I understand it, none of them to a life-threatening degree
alltheparentssuck@reddit
I'm allergic to pollock. It's not pretty if I eat it.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
This is heartbreaking 😢 kids can be so mean.
But agree with you on the other allergies. By the logic of nut bans, why aren’t we banning other foods? But also, teaching kids not to do stupid sht like put cheese down people’s shirts.
zombiezmaj@reddit
If assume because it can be airborne. My mum worked at a school and had epi pens and ended up in A&E about 4 times a year via ambulance because of kids eating peanut butter for breakfast or in their lunch.
And that was with dinner ladies wiping down tables and opening windows so the room was aired out for 30 minutes plus before she was back in there.
She ended up having to medically retire after 2 incidents within a month making her super ill so she cannot risk it. Her body is now hyper sensitive so she can no longer risk places like cinemas and theatre etc
Other allergens not airborne are easier to avoid/not ingest
MmmThisISaTastyBurgr@reddit
Yes, surely teaching children about 1) the importance of hand washing 2) consent around touching and 3) what bullying is and generally not being a little shitbag would probably do more than banning food.
PetersMapProject@reddit
If you banned every food that people are potentially allergic to, then quite frankly there'd be nothing left - especially when combined with other dietary and practical requirements. I once worked with someone who had an allergy to oranges and banned them from the office; it really can be any food.
The combination of requirements is especially acute on flight where you've got to factor in
any allergies other passengers might have (even if we just assume the top 14 allergens, that's hugely restrictive)
the liquid ban on flights - so no juices, hummus, yogurts, huel shakes etc
the total lack of access to cooking facilities
you have no way to keep food safe and cool on a long haul flight - ice packs are banned under the rules on liquids
you can't take knives, so no cutting up fresh raw fruit or veg.
other dietary requirements - for example I'm a vegetarian. I have tried ordering vegetarian meals on flights, and even when you have written proof you ordered them, it's hit and miss whether or not they'll turn up (50% success rate on my last 4 long haul flights) so you have no choice but to bring your own food as backup.
Anyway, if you can suggest food that's vegetarian, 14 allergen free, doesn't require heating or refrigeration, isn't liquid and will be allowed onto a flight, and is substantial enough to sustain me for an 18 hour flight (crisps won't cut it) then I'd love to hear it because I'm flying to SE Asia later this year.
I've asked this before on such threads, and what I always receive is a load of hot air (I usually get called selfish) and not one sensible suggestion for food that actually fits all the criteria imposed on us while flying.
Hour-Estate-2962@reddit
I 100% agree with you but if it is at all helpful, I'm coeliac and some of the snacks I bring fulfill that criteria. Dried fruit, microwave rice packets (the rice is cooked so they don't actually need heating), instant noodle pots with hot water from the plane (many are rice noodles and allergen free). Pumpkin seeds/similar. Date-based cereal bar style snacks.
I'm not saying you need to bring these things though, I agree airlines should make you aware of restrictions in advance. But I saw you said it makes you anxious so maybe that will help.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
I've had similar experience with in flight food. I'm vegetarian and dairy free. The last long haul fights I went on I came off rather hungry! Making my own nakd-style bars is usually a travel go to, if no nuts you could do it with pumpkin/sunflower/hemp seeds.
PetersMapProject@reddit
I tried Nakd bars ages ago and thought they were vile but I'm glad they work for you.
Unfortunately last time I flew and they announced a nut ban, they only announced it after boarding - when it was too late to buy anything else at the airport, and we were already trapped in the metal tube with zero options.
Upon closer inspection, every one of the three items I'd brought with me, including the chocolate bar, contained nuts. This was compounded by the departing airport being the least veggie friendly place I've ever had the misfortune to be.
Airline staff refused to do anything to help me - I was perfectly willing to compromise by swapping my food for something I was allowed to eat, but they refused. All they would do was sell me a tiny packet of crisps for £2.50 - and I refused to be held to ransom like that. They wouldn't even take the leftover currency from our trip.
I went hungry; thankfully it was a relatively short flight. If it was a long haul, or I was a diabetic, I'd have had no option but to eat my nut-containing snacks.
An email 24 hours before boarding, or even being told at baggage drop, would have helped, but they chose not to mention it until the last moment in the hope of extracting cash from me.
I now enter each flight in a state of anxiety about whether or not I'll be allowed to eat on it.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
It's ridiculous isn't it. Like if someone's allergy is that bad, I know they're not rocking up to the airport and demanding a nut free flight at checkin, so the airline could have given decent notice!
Although surely you're not trying hard enough if you can't whip up a complete, travel and allergen friendly meal in a foreign country from a hotell?! 🙃 Def take your own crisps on the next one! £2.50 is extortionate!
Might be worth finding a sub for the airline you're travelling with and seeing how other people have made it work? Or allergy subs too maybe? Hope you have a great trip though and that you do manage to get something to eat on the flight!!
jajay119@reddit
Because nut allergens can travel airborne in severe cases. People who are allergic to things in milk have to physically drink the milk to get a reaction. It’s not the same thing when 30 other people in a room could crack open a packet of nuts and cause you to go into potentially life threatening anaphylactic shock.
Angryleghairs@reddit
Anaphylaxis to peanuts is far more common and peanuts are easier to avoid.
Solid_Contact6529@reddit
It’s because they are airborne allergens which dairy isn’t- you can generally avoid physical contact with dairy or fish, but you can’t do the same with nuts because an open pack of nuts anywhere risks inhalation. I’m allergic to all three and very much appreciate the blanket nut ban in the schools I work in…
BuildingArmor@reddit
I think it's the nature of nuts and that airborne allergens are much more easily spread than things which needs direct contact.
It's definitely rare, very rare, but something like shelling peanuts on a plane would be a lot more likely to cause a hazard to somebody with an airborne allergy than drinking a glass of milk or eating a cheese sandwich would.
It's hard to find real data on it due to how rare it is though.
PetersMapProject@reddit
You are between 10 and 100 times LESS likely to have an allergic reaction to food on a commercial aircraft than you are on the ground.
When there have been allergic reactions, it's invariably due to touch and not airborne allergies (or, in the heavily reported case of Natasha Ednan-Laperouse, directly purchasing and eating their own allergen).
With peanuts, research shows particles are only detectable directly above the nuts, and only when taking them out of the shells — they do not become airborne or spread through the air.
Source: Anaphylaxis UK https://www.anaphylaxis.org.uk/flying-with-food-allergies/
BuildingArmor@reddit
The rest of sentence is probably worth including too
No-Mark4427@reddit
Nuts are specifically high risk for anaphylaxis in that nuts are both a common allergen and statistically if you have a nut allergy you are far more likely to have a risk of anaphylaxis, and they are more likely to persist into adulthood than other allergies and they often need incredibly low levels of exposure to cause harm. Nuts also are common enough while still being easy to avoid, so banning them is an easy target.
They account for 50% of the food allergy related deaths in the UK each year despite being only one of the many allergens.
Milk allergies actually account for similar levels of death in school children to nuts, possibly because they culturally aren't treated as seriously but it's worth bearing in mind this is after decades of awareness about nut allergies as well. People do tend to grow out of milk allergies aswell.
As a vegan, flights are a pain but it is what it is. I usually just eat something decent in or before the airport then make sure I buy a bunch of snacks for the flight.
WonFriendsWithSalad@reddit
Christ, that poor boy
BiasTap@reddit
People can develop allergies at any age. Do you think there might have been a death in a school to trigger this?
lumynaut@reddit
there have been deaths in schools caused by allergies other than nuts, too.
Turbojelly@reddit
I do IT at schools. Every school I have worked in over the last 20+ ywars had at least 1 wall dedicated to students and their needs/allergies.
HoundParty3218@reddit
And you wouldn't want to be the one kid that got nuts banned.
dayus9@reddit
Are nuts that popular with kids?
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
Some kids have restricted/restrictive (not sure on the right word) diets annd nuts might be one of the only things they’ll eat, like if they are neurodiverse and it’s their safe food. Some kids are just super fussy as well. Or maybe vegan kids and that’s the only source of protein they’ll eat.
And yeah some kids just really live peanut butter 😆
minnis93@reddit
Nuts themselves? I wouldn't have thought so.
Products with nuts in them? Hugely so - peanut butter and Nutella being two immediate examples that spring to mind.
britilix@reddit
You are one new starter in September that wasn't aware they had a nut allergy away from killing a kid.
Considering it's a common allergy no I don't think it's over the top
FornyHucker22@reddit
just repackage the snickers in a mars wrapper 😎
DameKumquat@reddit
When I had long conversations with schools about this, the consensus seemed to be that nurseries and primaries tend to be nut-free because it's fairly straightforward to eliminate, peanut butter is messy and Nutella isn't healthy. And keeping small children from touching each other is a nightmare. Whereas eliminating all dairy and other allergens would mean huge changes to menus.
For secondary school, they generally don't have food bans and expect the kids to avoid the allergens, with extra safety measures and staff training as needed.
So my kid with ARFID ate plain bread, crisps and a smoothie each day through primary, but a peanut butter sandwich in secondary. Special schools didn't allow peanut butter either.
missyb@reddit
We are going through this too. There are genuinely only about ten things he will eat- peanut butter sandwiches were one of them, we had to stop. No Nutella sandwiches either. School was like, just try him on a different spread! Er no, it doesn't work like that...we did try so many different things....bottom line school have banned three different things he would eat, so he can only have dry bread sticks, crisps, and pain-au-chocolate.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
This makes sense from a nut point of view, but the reasoning behind it seems off, it's like if someone has a life-threatening dairy allergy they're saying that 'sorry, it's too hard to eliminate so you just have to crack on and make the best of it'
Purple_monkfish@reddit
stay and play continued to serve up kiwifruit after I told them about my allergy. It's not swelling throat closing, I get these weeping burning hives just from contact with the juice. They continued to give my kid kiwi and he'd come over to me, hands covered in the juice and i'd have to try to get him cleaned up without touching it. Not fun.
It would have been SO simply to just not order kiwifruit and have other fruit but nope. Heck, they could have offered to take my kid to the table, cut up the food for him and clean him up because I couldn't handle the knife, the plate or anything else the damn thing had touched. But nope.
DameKumquat@reddit
Pretty much. I imagine pineapple or kiwi could be removed from primary schools too, but a kid allergic to the bulk of school dinners - celery, gluten, dairy, whatever - the staff would concentrate on keeping the individual kid away from the food. Probably have to eat alone like the Brethren.
Historical_Project86@reddit
You will never know what anyone's allergy will become. Allergies tend not to be static conditions. By that I mean that one day, someone could be sneezing/coughing for 30 minutes, and then next day they could have an anaphylactic shock.
BirdieStitching@reddit
I used to eat all sorts of nuts with no issue. Then one day out of the blue as an adult a bueno triggered anaphylaxis and now I can't eat any tree nuts.
CrazyPlatypusLady@reddit
I used to eat prawns. One day I ate crab, reacted, now I can't eat any crustacea and can't even handle the mealworms I put out for the birds without gloves!
Historical_Project86@reddit
Yes a similar thing happened to my adult daughter. It was pretty scary, a paramedic got to us in 20 minutes so it was all OK in the end.
PM_ME_VEG_PICS@reddit
I developed a sudden intolerance to cashews. I could tell if I'd just eaten one cashew in a meal. I stopped eating them and then about 5 years later I accidently ate some pesto with cashews in and was completely fine. I'm thankful that I was never actually allergic as nuts turn up in all sorts of things.
I do now seem to have an intolerance to other nuts though!
catsnstuff17@reddit
This is the answer. A lot of people say they have a "mild allergy" to something. There is no such thing.
schemmenti@reddit
Yeah, I have a cinnamon allergy (weird) and sometimes I can eat it and just get a bit of a sore mouth whereas I can eat the same thing another day and it makes my entire mouth swell up and block my throat.
faroffland@reddit
Repeated exposure can increase the severity of the reaction too.
On a tangent but my sister recently had an absolutely horrendous allergic reaction, not exaggerating when I say full body bright red hives, itchy throat, the works. She sent me photos and it was absolutely awful, I tried to convince her to go A&E but she went to a pharmacist and stabilised it with OTC anti-histamines. Saw her GP and they’ve said unless she has another reaction they won’t refer her for allergy testing.
It was such a severe reaction completely out of the blue with no obvious triggers, next time seriously might be anaphylaxis. She’s going private for an allergy panel but if GPs don’t take reactions like that seriously or refer for allergy testing, what chance do the public have??
slophiewal@reddit
This ☝🏼 people think that the you are severely allergic or mildly allergic when in reality you can react differently each time.
Naetharu@reddit
There are a few good reasons.
The first is that nut allergies are disproportionately common compared with other allergies of equal severity. The chances of having a child that could be put in serious danger from nuts is much greater than one from dairy, for example.
The second is that nut allergies are also disproportionately sensitive in many cases. Very small quantities of nut can cause extreme reactions. This is less common in many other allergens, where the mere proximity to them is less dangerous.
Nuts are also easier to ban as they are less integral to mainstream food. If you banned dairy, that would mean no milk, cheese, sauces, and similar items that are central to many meals. While nuts are found far less in common meals and removing them from the menu is of little consequence.
So it largely comes down to just being sensible and taking reasonable precautions where possible. By banning nuts it protects from a very significant risk at very little cost. And yes, there are clearly other challenges that can be addressed on a case by case basis as needed. But the nut one is so common, and so serious when it does occur that given it can be removed with relative ease, it makes sense to do so.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
All sound like reasonable arguments, but dairy for example is also responsible for a high proportion of deaths in school (26%). A kid died in the UK because another kid put a piece of cheese down his shirt. What do we say to those kids, “sorry banning dairy is too much of a faff”
Naetharu@reddit
There's an argument to be made for sure.
As per the a I've on bug difference is the ease of which nuts can be removed. Given that their removal causes no real disruption and provides a lot of protection for the affected people it's an easy win at little significant cost.
Dairy is much harder as it is used much more.in mainstream food. So there is more friction in that case.
I'm not advocating. Just providing some rational basis to account for the practice. If you feel dairy should be avoided in schools I think that is a reasonable a defensible position you can argue for.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
It’s not that I feel dairy should be banned, just that I’m not convinced it’s fair to ban nuts because it’s easier and not ban dairy because it’s harder. Maybe the dairy vs nuts comparison isn’t helping, I feel like it’s the same as saying ‘sorry wheelchair user, it was easier to put in handrails for people who use crutches than put in a ramp, there are more people who use crutches than wheelchairs so we’re going to just do that bit”
I can’t reconcile it in my head is all 🤷🙂
Naetharu@reddit
Why not.
Ban the thing that is easy to do. Simple quick win that causes no real problem and provides good protection.
Don't ban the one that is much more messy and complex.
That seems sensible and robust. Do what you can and seek the simple easy wins where possible. How else would you expect to see things work.
Otherwise-Eye-490@reddit
Interested in your sources for these claims?
Purple_monkfish@reddit
One of my kid's schools had a citrus fruit ban because a staff member had a serious allergy. That was a pain in the arse, no oranges.
The problem with nut allergies is it only takes one person to have an unknown or undisclosed allergy and you could end up with a dead kid so so easily. It's generally better to try to avoid that by removing such a severe allergen.
And yes, there are other allergies that are as dangerous, but they're substantially rarer and tend to be related to foods not as commonly found in a school. I don't think anyone's bringing shellfish in for example.
sesame can be fatal, but it's not common in this country so i assume that's why it's not included in these school bans. It probably should be though. Dairy and Gluten tend not to be something that'll cause your throat to swell which is why they're not treated as such a big deal. You'll feel like shit, but you won't die.
My youngest has a gluten issue, causes intense gastric issues and violent purging from both ends. Horrible for everyone, but not deadly. Just awful.
I have an allergy to sulfite. It won't kill me, but it does cause my throat to swell and it's really uncomfortable for hours because I can't swallow properly and then I feel all spaced and unwell from the histamine response. But it won't result in me dying.
Nuts and Sesame and Shellfish all can and do. Which is why they're such bloody scary allergies.
PetersMapProject@reddit
This is dangerous misinformation.
You are probably confusing lactose intolerance with dairy allergies.
Dairy allergies can be every bit as severe as a nut allergy. Take, for example, Karanbir Singh Cheema who died at school after a child flicked cheese at his skin. Or Celia Marsh, who died due to very minor milk contamination in a sandwich. Or Benedict Blythe, who died after school staff gave him the wrong milk.
Purple_monkfish@reddit
I forgot about the cheese incident! I stand corrected.
I do think perhaps instead if singling out nuts, schools should just NOT HAVE these allergens on site in the first place. It won't hurt any kids to have some oat milk rather than dairy or vegan cheese or something.
PetersMapProject@reddit
Oat milk is frequently not safe for coeliacs, due to rampant cross contamination in the supply chain. Vegan cheese often has other allergens in it - cashew nuts are common. It is also, quite frankly, just not that great - it seems to have been much harder to crack in product development than plant milk.
Personally I wouldn't fancy having to try and whip up lunches which are
free from the 14 allergens of celery, cereals containing gluten (wheat, rye, barley, oats), crustaceans, eggs, fish, lupin, milk, molluscs, mustard, tree nuts (almonds, hazelnuts, walnuts, brazil nuts, cashews, pecans, pistachios and macadamia nuts), peanuts, sesame, soybeans, and sulphur dioxide/sulphites
if you're a parent, suitable to go in a lunchbox ie doesn't need refrigeration or heating and not banned junk
if you're the school chef, then meeting all the myriad nutritional requirements and done to a very tight budget (eg Oatly oat milk is £2 a litre, cows milk is £0.73 a litre) and factoring in other dietary requirements (e.g. vegetarian, halal, kosher).
something the kids will actually eat - there's plenty of fussy eaters out there
Very often it's easy to think of ingredients that are individually 14 allergen free, but pulling them together into an actual meal plan that meets nutritional needs is where it becomes trickier.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
As a parent with a kid on the allergy menu I can confirm this is a HUGE challenge that unfortunately our school caterers (who set a low bar for edible/appealing food) have not yet managed to overcome 😬
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
There is a new law coming in in September in the UK because of Benedict Blythe.
PetersMapProject@reddit
To save everyone else the Google, it's mandatory allergy safety guidance in schools.
Whether or not such a law would have saved Benedict is up for debate - he died due to human error (being handed the wrong milk) rather than lack of knowledge.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
I think dairy is a pretty common allergy, One study suggested that dairy was responsible for 26% of school allergy fatalities. But we don’t see schools rushing to ban dairy.
Major-Damage173@reddit
I've never understood the desperate need for nuts. Like so many parents complained when it was banned in my school to protect a kid with an allergy. Like why does ur kid need nut products so bad, eat that at home it's not that hard, like at all
TonyBlairsDildo@reddit
It needs to be culturally expected for those with food allergies to constantly undergo exposure therapy to rid them of their allergy. It is not reasonable to expect the world be hermetically sterile of allergens. It won't work for the allergic, and it won't work for the rest of the public.
If a kid has a peanut allergy, then they need to rub their skin with 1-100 dilute peanut butter with water, then 1-50 dilute solution, then 1-25. Then one perpet drop of 1-100 orally. Then two perpet drops.
If not, then everywhere; every public and private space will need to be sterile of absolutely every sort of food trace.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
Do you have a source for this?
Solid_Contact6529@reddit
Not overreacting - nuts are airborne allergens which the others aren’t, tiny traces can cause reactions and even if someone only has a mild allergic reaction one time, the next time they could have a fatal anaphylactic reaction. Much safer to have a blanket ban.
Otherwise-Eye-490@reddit
Nuts are absolutely not the only allergen for which this is the case.
Solid_Contact6529@reddit
No, obviously not - things like pollen, dust etc are too, but in school catering terms they are the main one that is.
Otherwise-Eye-490@reddit
No, food other than nuts can be airborne and can be anaphylactic with tiny traces.
DarthScabies@reddit
Wasnt the airborne transmission thing disproved or downgraded recently?
Adm_Shelby2@reddit
Basically yes
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33548082/
They stuck people with severe peanut allergies in a small room with a bowl of peanuts 50cm from their face and left them there for half an hour. Nothing happened.
Extra_Actuary8244@reddit
No, people theorise that it’s a lie but that in itself has been disproven over and over and over again
Allergens absolutely can be airborne
PetersMapProject@reddit
You are between 10 and 100 times LESS likely to have an allergic reaction to food on a commercial aircraft than you are on the ground.
When there have been allergic reactions, it's invariably due to touch and not airborne allergies (or, in the heavily reported case of Natasha Ednan-Laperouse, directly purchasing and eating their own allergen).
Source: Anaphylaxis UK, who are hardly the "selfish people who can't give up nuts for a few hours on a plane" that you describe. https://www.anaphylaxis.org.uk/flying-with-food-allergies/
I had a look a while back and I could find a single case of someone who died on a flight due to an airborne allergen. But perhaps you have a case in mind.
Extra_Actuary8244@reddit
Yes obviously you’re less likely to, the issue is it’s still a possibility and on the ground you can get an ambulance
You can’t call an ambulance in the sky, it’s a £50,000 job that causes severe disruption to peoples lives that might not even be able to save the life of the person reacting
Purple_monkfish@reddit
is that because the air is filtered before being recirculated though? In a regular kitchen environment or a busy room, would there be a higher risk of airborn particulates?
PetersMapProject@reddit
Air filtration is part of it, but also most allergens just don't become airborne easily - even peanuts.
TachiH@reddit
To be fair aircraft filter the air constantly so you would be less likely to have airborne allergies on a plane than in a similar size room full of people where the air is stuck.
CandidLiterature@reddit
But does it cause serious consequences? I’ve certainly never heard of cases where this kind of environmental exposure has caused eg. a hospitalisation. I’m not
It just seems like overkill to most people to be so restrictive because someone has a remote chance of symptoms on the scale of eg. watering eyes. It also makes no sense why nuts are given this status over other allergens.
Where’s the evidence base that this kind of action is warranted or sensible?
Purple_monkfish@reddit
I always assumed that was why nuts were singled out. It's much harder to aerolise dairy or shellfish or something, but peanuts get everywhere. The shells are just DUST. Like gluten, you can never guarentee somewhere that prepared peanuts, or most tree nuts too, has no trace contaminants.
That said, if someone's got a severe enough allergy to dairy that just touching it causes a reaction, even cleaning up a spill might not be enough either.
But liquids tend to not spread quite so far in normal preparation.
Still, I do wonder if they should maybe just err on the side of caution and limit as many common allergens in the canteen as possible.
Bowtie327@reddit
It’s very much a real thing, my mum gets an itchy throat if nuts are around her, it’s not psychosomatic because my dad tested this by secretly trying to eat nuts
Rico1983@reddit
Your dad's a monster 🤣
lumynaut@reddit
with a solid scientific method!
Bowtie327@reddit
Man loves hit nuts, I don’t blame him for trying to be honest, since then the house has been nut-free
forgottenoldusername@reddit
I'm allergic to milk (anaphylaxis tier) and I absolutely cannot spend too long in a coffee shop due to steamed milk in the air. Triggers horrific asthma like symptoms and my throught closes up.
Complete anecdotal evidence though ha
KatherinesDaddy@reddit
It's worth noting that some kids would 'spike' the food/drink of another kid just for giggles.
If this were an office, I'd question the continuing ban. But a school is basically a zoo with uniforms...
Decard_Pain@reddit
Silly school. Have the kids carry epi pens!
In a serious note amazingly since the change in government guidance from "avoid nuts when young" to "expose children at an early age" the amount of people with allergies had drastically fallen, it's almost like our bodies are able to adapt at a young age and protect us of something.
Which-World-6533@reddit
Pretty much. This is why allergies form as people's bodies don't get exposed to various things.
Decard_Pain@reddit
Yep, my wife's sister said she couldn't have cats (she wanted cats) because shes allergic, I said she was likely intolerant and to get a cat and just deal with it for a bit, well she has no reaction to cats now and has two cats
Zealousideal_Glass61@reddit
I guess it depends if you have a crazy night allergy. I was once on a ferry and someone sat down for a few minutes at a seat and then asked if someone had been eating peanuts there. 5 minutes later they were in full anaphylactic shock and needed a jab. It turned out that someone had sat and eaten a packet of peanuts about an hour before. Totally crazy, zero sign of any actual peanuts being anywhere near them
lilletia@reddit
Another thing worth noting is that implementing a ban only while an allergic child is in school would breach the privacy of those children - people could be able to guess which child it might be, and there might be a child who is at safeguarding risk of being found by a school who implements a nut-free policy whilst they are in school
Difficult_System1264@reddit
I don't think nuts should be banned unless necessary. Schools ask for medical information about their pupils so they know if there are children with severe allergies. Presumably they have this information about staff as well, or could easily obtain it. I don't see why there would be significant extra work when they collect this information anyway. All they need to do is inform parents at the start of each year if there are any foods that shouldn't be brought to school.
My daughter is vegetarian. I'd love to be able to include nuts in her lunch as a protein source but I can't. Obviously if someone had a life threatening allergy then their safety would be more important than our minor inconvenience, but if there isn't anyone around her who will be harmed by nuts then why shouldn't she eat them?! Our school is always going on about sending healthy snacks in for the kids (no chocolate, sweets, crisps etc allowed). Nuts would be a great healthy snack option!
jajay119@reddit
Nut allergens can travel airborne. I cannot say for the others but I know it’s true for nuts. That’s why there’s a blanket ban.
The alternative is to wait until someone has a potentially life threatening anaphylactic shock. If the rule is there now it’s well engrained for when there is an allergic person on site. Pro-Action rather than re-action is always better imo.
Plus most kids don’t like nuts anyway.
Extra_Actuary8244@reddit
No absolutely not
ALLLLLLL allergies are life threatening
Just because someone doesn’t have anaphylaxis doesn’t mean they won’t
People seem to know nothing about allergies but absolutely any allergy at any given point can suddenly develop anaphylaxis even if before it was only a skin, oral or gastrointestinal allergy
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
I get this. But doesn’t this apply to all allergies, not just nuts? And if that’s the case, surely we can’t ban all 14 common allergens from everywhere? Plus the other many food and non food allergies that others have. Plus many of the allergy charities say that a ban isn’t effective because it creates a false sense of security.
Wrengull@reddit
Its tricky in schools, especially when theyre in younger years. Even if not airborne, young kids can be messy and cant be trusted not to contaminate (ie to wash their hands etc), peanut butter can be messy and sticky, all it takes is the kid with an allergy to unknowingly touch where that kid who ate the peanut butter sandwich touched to react. Mild reactions can also turn anapylactic overnight. And even then, mild allergies are painful.
chaddledee@reddit
Yep, but if you banned all allergy prone food you'd have practically nothing left to eat. Nuts seem to be the most common allergy, and the food most likely to cause anaphylaxis by a hefty margin. If you're gonna ban any foodstuff, it'd make sense that nuts would be the first food to go.
GlitchingGecko@reddit
I developed an allergy to strawberries in my mid 20s with no previous food allergies. I'm now allergic to over 10 fruits, and they all seem to happen overnight.
Eat half an avocado Saturday, Sunday I'm allergic.. It's so weird.
veryblocky@reddit
I think they’re a stupid idea, even when there is someone who has a nut allergy.
Firstly, it’s imposing on people who would otherwise eat nuts, but I think more importantly it creates a false sense of security for those with severe allergies.
PetersMapProject@reddit
Even where there is someone who's anaphylactic to nuts, the charity Allergy UK specifically recommends against nut bans in schools
https://www.allergyuk.org/information-and-support/at-school/for-schools/
Disgruntled__Goat@reddit
Saving a click and scroll:
HuckleberryFinal5706@reddit
And yet every single school I've worked in is 'nut free'. Even staff aren't allowed to bring anything containing nuts.
elhazelenby@reddit
There's research that says that basically introducing nuts to children early on can reduce nut allergies.
Also peanuts and tree nuts are separate allergens in food safety, so if one was Allergic to peanuts but tree nuts were somehow found in preparation then someone with a severe tree nut allergy could be compromised.
slophiewal@reddit
I always have to remind my kids nursery of this, my son is allergic to peanuts and they have a blanket peanut and nut ban but in their correspondence only refer to it as “nut free policy” - this isn’t correct and if one was so inclined they could then think peanut butter etc was fine to send in
PetersMapProject@reddit
Anyone with a professional background in food would read this and take it to mean no tree nuts - and it's drummed into you that tree nuts and peanuts are separate allergens, and you'd assume competent communication from the nursery.
Worldly_Wafer_6635@reddit
A load of rubbish, I have a very extensive background.
And no, I would assume that meant all nuts.
Nobody would assume tree nuts just from the word 'nut allergy', especially a professional.
Most people with the allergy do not know there is a difference (Source.. me, the million times someone has told me they have a nut allergy, and I've asked them if that is peanuts, tree nuts or all, and they have no idea)
And if you want to be technical, 'Nut Allergy' defines both, not just tree nuts.
Extra_Actuary8244@reddit
They’re right, I have multiple certificates in allergen awareness via being a chef and I have food allergies
Peanuts are legumes
Nuts usually means tree nuts
Worldly_Wafer_6635@reddit
And FYI language used by the NHS :-
https://www.uhb.nhs.uk/media/z4xaw3rb/pi-immunology-peanut-and-tree-nut-allergy.pdf
Worldly_Wafer_6635@reddit
Here's another one:-
https://www.wsh.nhs.uk/CMS-Documents/Patient-leaflets/PaediatricDepartment/6438-1-Nut-allergy.pdf
Worldly_Wafer_6635@reddit
So do I, and have literally written policies on it.
You are not taught that 'nuts' only refers to tree nuts. That is a load of bull.
You are taught more about the allergies involved, obviously.
You're telling me if someone said they had a nut allergy, you would serve/cross contaminant them with people. Because they must have meant 'tree nuts'
elhazelenby@reddit
I've also undertaken allergen training and level 2 food safety training in both my jobs in food preparation. I imagine your training is much higher than mine, though. I was a cafe/kitchen assistant & then a deli assistant. Another one people often miss is Lupin, which is different to Wheat but it's in some breads. I know a few people who are celiac.
elhazelenby@reddit
Unfortunately even places you'd expect to have solid food safety training don't understand stuff like this. On a similar note my friend works in an NHS hospital in the North East and he's vegetarian. His canteen's only "vegetarian" option one day was...fish. I know pescetarian exists but that's not the same. And fish is also one of the 14 common allergens to boot. When he pointed out fish isn't vegetarian, the woman was like "that's we all have".
TachiH@reddit
Schools should be training kids for life after school. I feel primary schools banning nuts is fair as most primary age kids can't control themselves.
By secondary school any students with allergies should absolutely be carrying their epi pen with them.
Ruu2D2@reddit
My work colleagues granddaughter have nut allergy
From young age she ask if anyone give or offer her food to ask if it got nut in as nuts make her ill.
CurleyCee13@reddit
My work is nut free, soya free, sesame free etc.
Most people don't pay too much attention other than when we know we will be audited.
Electronic_Truck_84@reddit
It's just best not to risk it. Besides, one of the kids might also have a family member that does. It's a deadly condition that in some people could triggered simply after touching a surface where someone who ate them has touched. Luckily its a condition that can be cured, although I'm not sure a lot of people know it can be.
londonhousewife@reddit
They’re dangerous because they encourage misplaced security for allergic children. My child’s infant school was nut free. They had signs up saying this is a nut free site. I was talking to one of her friends one day who mentioned she had pesto pasta in her lunch box, which commonly contain nuts.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
Also side bar but pine nuts are different to tree nuts. From Anaphylaxis UK:
Pine nuts are in a different botanical category to tree nuts (such as walnuts, Brazils and cashews) and researchers point out that the overwhelming majority of people with pine nut allergy can tolerate these other nuts, and vice versa. So if you are allergic to pine nuts, it is highly unlikely that you need to avoid other nuts but discuss this with your doctor if you have any concerns.
https://www.anaphylaxis.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Pine-nuts-allergy-factsheet.pdf
londonhousewife@reddit
Yes, pine nuts, peanuts and tree nuts are all different categories for allergies but for a non-allergy aware person they are all ‘nuts’. Also a lot of supermarket pesto brands contain cashews, which I probably wouldn’t have considered before I met my sister in law who has allergies.
PetersMapProject@reddit
Coconut and chestnuts are also called nuts for culinary purposes, but they're not nuts for allergy purposes.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
Exactly this, its impossible to police. I've bought specific nut and dairy free pesto before only to have it taken off my kid in case it contained nuts 😕
DarkLordTofer@reddit
The thing is you get a new batch of kids every year.
AlternativeConflict@reddit
Staff can have allergies too.
dragonfarter@reddit
I got fed up of my kids school with this, his "off brand" snack stated "may contain nuts" - even though nuts were not an actual ingredient and they started making him eat it on his own at break, however on the branded and therefore more expensive version, there was no mention of "may contain nuts" and they were fine with that..... so I switched back to the cheap version and just started removing the wrapper and putting it in a plastic bag instead - no label no argument.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
That seems like madness to me. Our school insists on 'healthy' snacks, so can't send a homemade cake made with say banana instead of sugar, oats instead of flour etc, but can send a soreen bar because it's under 100 calories 🤦♀️
Hefty_Anywhere_8537@reddit
My wife has a life threatening nut allergy. She will die if she comes into contact.
sbaldrick33@reddit
Schools have a new influx of people every year, no?
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
They do! But I reckon schools could probably also change or reinstate a policy if needed.
GlitchingGecko@reddit
I think it's weird that they're so hardcore on nuts, when others allergies, like dairy, can be just as quickly fatal.
But I guess it's easier to ban nuts than it is all dairy products.
forgottenoldusername@reddit
I'm still anaphylactic to milk as an adult and this has always confused me
I genuinely cannot spend more than a few minutes in coffee shops because the steamed milk in the air starts closing my airways
But I don't particularly want it banned for clarity. Just thinking it's weird how nuts are taken so seriously when other allergen groups are less so.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
This is kind of my thought, with the logic of ‘well it could happen’ surely that should apply to all potential allergies, not just nuts 🤷
GlitchingGecko@reddit
Unless you didn't allow anything other than water, it's not going to be 100% safe for everyone.
That's why kids need to be taught about allergies, even if they don't have any themselves. Knowing not to offer their food to other kids, especially younger kids, can save lives.
Arlincornwall@reddit (OP)
Exactly. I’ve had this conversation with my kids countless times. And they’re used to checking ingredients too. I think I’m inclined to agree that better education (and compassion) around allergies is going to be much more effective in keeping people safe than banning ine thing, not banning others and then expecting that to do the job
Expensive_Peace8153@reddit
Yes, complete overkill.
cynical-mage@reddit
One thing that always drove me crazy at my last (retail) job; we were banned from consuming nuts on site due to allergy risks. But...we also sold numerous nutty products, which ofc were often damaged and open...
Apsalar28@reddit
There probably was a kid at some point in the past with a severe allergy and the school haven't got rid of the policy.
CreativeAdeptness477@reddit
Save nutting for at home
Bowtie327@reddit
Not really, nuts aren’t really a huge deal, so why risk it and have to clean all the equipment on the chance someone does join with a very common allergy?
Cross contamination is very easy to happen because people are human and humans make mistakes
Norsa321@reddit
Easier to manage if a new kids transfers in mid year if everyone is already used to no nuts
terryjuicelawson@reddit
It is a pretty easy policy for them to put in place, and nut allergies can be particularly bad especially if it is airborne. People with a gluten intolerance aren't having problems breathing because the kid next to them has a sandwich. In reality a lot of kids do actually bring in things with nuts in, they aren't searching every lunch box. Just hopefully not bags of them.
GreyandDribbly@reddit
Intolerances can develop in to full life threatening conditions with repeated exposure.
Plus it’s easier to just blanket ban them for the safety of those around them.
Allergies can sometimes develop out of nowhere even though I am pretty sure it is very unlikely with nuts, there is still the possibility.
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