Moving from Europe to the US internally. How does "Flexible Time Off" work in reality?
Posted by scoopydidit@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 23 comments
My understanding is it's "unlimited" but not really. That confuses me. What is generally considered "too much" time off?
For reference, I'm moving from Europe to the US. We get 25 days Paid Time Off (PTO) and can buy 5 more days with salary. Which I always do, so I usually have 30 days off per year.
How does FTO work compared to this?
corny_horse@reddit
This isn't really even something that is specific to the company level - it's almost always up to your manager, excepting some company-wide policies (for example, unless for parental/medical leave, my current company doesn't allow three consecutive weeks of leave without skip approval). Across the multiple companies I've worked at, I've seen people take off 10 weeks per year, and I've also worked at places where I felt I couldn't take a day off at all.
Generally speaking, the culture is different in the US than in the EU, so you won't typically see other people taking off 6-10 weeks a year, a time even if you do.
ben_bliksem@reddit
My wife worked at a big and very good employer where they trialed "unlimited leave". This was before COVID so things may have changed, but essentially what happened was that people took less time off than what they got under the old system. So it got reverted (if I'm not mistaken) because of employee well-being concerns.
Now this was obviously not in the USA, but worth mentioning from a psychological point of view which companies are very aware of an have "weaponised" it to their advantage. A perk that's really a perk for them.
wonesy@reddit
I have unlimited now at an American company. I think American culture would look down on more than 2 consecutive weeks, but I probably take close to 25-30 days off total annually
KandevDev@reddit
"unlimited PTO" in the US is generally a way for companies to (1) avoid the accrued PTO payout liability on their balance sheet, and (2) put social pressure on you to take less. in practice US workers with "unlimited" PTO take ~12-14 days a year. workers with explicit allocations take their full allocation.
the practical number: whatever your team senior engineers take. if they take 15 days, 15 is the ceiling. if they take 25, you can take 25. observe before you ask. and never volunteer "i am taking 6 weeks" until you have seen someone else do it without consequence.
InvitedGuest@reddit
Ive been in both situations. For unlimited PTO it's all up to your manager, their manager, however the org is setup. One place 'unofficially' tracked our PTO and wouldn't grant it if we took too much, another place was take PTO as long as you're meeting targets and getting work done!
Im back in EU now and I think I end up using more PTO here with the X amount of days PTO policy.
travishummel@reddit
I’ve had this flexible time off my entire 12 year career. What I’ve done upon joining a team is tell my manager that I have no idea how flexible time off works, but my plan was to take a 1 week vacation every quarter. These companies would typically have a shutdown between Christmas and new years and again around the first week of July. It would equate to 6 weeks or so.
Downside is that you have to be diligent about taking it. If you don’t, it’s not like it banks up. Hard to take more than 8 working days off in a row (in my experience).
I’d let my boss know of my vacation about a month in advanced.
optimal_random@reddit
Unlimited PTO exists so that the company can offer whatever number of PTO days they can want, and guilt trip you with peer pressure, or some dubious metrics, to not take more.
Plus, in case you get fired, it does not need to compensate you as much since your contract does not contemplate any number of days at all.
It's basically a legal scam.
Think about it, why would a company not state clearly that you have, say 25 days of PTO, and choose to say "unlimited", when that is obviously and clearly BS.
cosmopoof@reddit
One week is accepted, two weeks gives you a taint, three weeks and you get asked if you're serious, four weeks and you're directly on the PIP.
These schemes aren't there for your benefit but for the company's benefit.
nerdyphoenix@reddit
Where I work, US employees often take as much as a month to visit their home country. This really is company dependent.
Empanatacion@reddit
It's very company and team dependent and what you're describing is the extreme.
9302462@reddit
To add to this- by offering “unlimited PTO” they also don’t need to pay someone out for their PTO when they get fired.
throwaway09234023322@reddit
Talk to your manager, but for me, it has been like 6-8 weeks plus holidays is normal where I worked.
CalebKrawdad@reddit
Statistically people are less likely to take time off when they have “unlimited time off”, without dedicated PTO time.
As others stated, it really depends on the organization, but I’ve been in several and it’s acceptable to take 3 to 4 weeks in addition to other holidays.
I believe it’s basically designed to trim the fat on company balance sheets because they usually have to pay this out when you leave under the traditional structure.
PabloZissou@reddit
Beware that most of the time PTO is not vacations only but also for when you are sick!
Ok_Reaction_4340@reddit
Ugh. Internally most of these companies with unlimited time off are tracking this metric and using it in nefarious ways. Unfortunately it means that you will never know what is acceptable until you push the limits even if you don’t realize you are pushing the limits. There is no upside to employees under this policy despite how great it sounds.
snooysan@reddit
Depends on your company culture. I worked for a US company in Canada where "unlimited" meant 5-6 weeks per year on my team. However they never allowed more than 3 weeks at a time.
CheetahChrome@reddit
It's a BS move to not pay for unused vacation if you leave or get fired.
gemengelage@reddit
That's a conversation you should have had with your new supervisor, ideally before agreeing to being transferred.
scoopydidit@reddit (OP)
I mean it's not really a deal breaker to me if it's 10 days or 100 days. I'll make it work. Just curious how this works as I know this is not company specific but kind of the norm across most American tech companies.
ProlowN@reddit
If you really mean this "I mean it's not really a deal breaker to me if it's 10 days or 100 days."
I would recommend you talk to someone.
Key-Half1655@reddit
Did you have a look at how many employee rights and protections you are saying goodbye to with the move to US? Time off is a big part of that.
Dimencia@reddit
Depends on your company and manager. "Too much" time off is whenever your manager decides you've been gone too long, ideally via falling behind on some sort of metrics
If you're lucky and it's a good company, the managers will be aware of the research behind FTO and how it actually makes people take less time off, and they will do their best to encourage you to take at least X days (whatever PTO days you would have gotten previously) to help avoid burnout, 30 is pretty normal. But they have final say in whether they grant time off, or if they might fire you for taking too much (in states that allow that). So, you'd have to ask them
afancymidget@reddit
Oh boy… whose gonna tell them…