Struggling to hold altitude during PPL maneuvers
Posted by ProperIntern7989@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 54 comments
To preface this I’ve already consulted my instructor + multiple others and still can’t seem to get a fix.
During S turns, Turns around a point, steep turns etc I struggle to hold altitude halfway through the maneuver or by the end I’m +-200ft and way out of ACS standards, I’ve practiced on calm wind days, windy days, and I make sure I’m trimmed out prior to entering my maneuvers. What could be causing me to not hold altitude?
dyljcks@reddit
Are you trimming for the maneuver or to be stable before the maneuver?
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
To be stable before
dyljcks@reddit
Sorry just adding on again. A very simple way to think about this is:
Being trimmed for straight and level is much different than being trimmed for bank
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
Even small banks for s turns?
dyljcks@reddit
Depending on the performance for each day. High DA days will reduce your performance. Though, on shallow banks, you can work through it with just the yoke.
I'm only very acutely aware of how helpful trim is because during one of my flights as a student working on steep turns, my instructor took the controls and went "holy shit dude, you need a protein shake after how much you had to pull back"
Obviously, fly the plane first (pitch, power, then trim), but use that trim to decrease your work load dude. On a smooth day, you can effectively trim a plane to maintain altitude the entire turn, then catch the balloon as you roll wings level, and roll into the next steep turn already trimmed out.
You'll get it for sure. It really is just building an actual understanding and feeling for the kinesthetics of the plane. Steep turns didn't click for me until I was almost signed off for my check ride, then they became something I never had to think of again
dyljcks@reddit
Through the CRAAC clearance, you get stabilized to begin any maneuver. Though, that's for the entry. You're going to need to add or subtract trim/power dependent on the day for each maneuver.
A s turn is going to be very different from turns around a point because you are changing which way you bank and it's dependent on the wind. Heat will also play into your lift.
This is stuff you'll know, but it can be hard to connect in the air. On a turn, if you increase bank, what happens to your pitch? Right? Your nose goes down, so you pull back a bit to account for it- so we add trim. Bank decreases? Less trim
If you're flying a plane with a trim wheel instead of electric, it's really easy to just glance down and make a swipe to where you need it. Remember bank splits your coefficient of lift into x and and y, instead of just y (up). So, you should always be accounting for it. Now- steep turns.
In steep turns, you'll really feel the split coefficient of lift cause you're banking to 45 for PPL. That's 1.6g. Naturally, your nose is going to dip significantly during that turn based on the bank, and the plane will want to force a greater bank and nose down attitude. Start counter acting this by increasing your nose up trim. Dependent on whether it's hot, you may need extra power too.
Remember CRAAC is to start the maneuver, not for the whole maneuver. Ground reference and performance maneuvers are accomplished well by adjusting for them. Unless specifically stated, increase and decrease bank, pitch, trim, and throttle as needed.
Also remember, you're a new pilot. Most people have a flight that makes them go: oh shit that makes sense.
TLDR:
Change power and change attitude if you need to
Odd_Entertainment471@reddit
Trim. Oh yeah, make sure you trim and retrim and retrim. Always Be Trimming (ABT). Straight and level, get ‘er trimmed for one finger tip flying. Going into a steep turn, giv’er about two turns nose up and let the plane do the work. Might need 3, but that should be ballpark. Rolling out, take that nose up back out. Going from right or left turns, just give that yoke a little push nose down for the period while the wings are mostly level. Speeding up, trim ‘er. Slowing down, retrim. ABT.
spacecadet2399@reddit
Keep practicing. If you're really doing everything correctly as you say, then you just need to build up the skill level. There's no silver bullet. It's just skill. It's like getting good at a video game.
If you're doing something wrong, your instructor should be able to tell you. Sometimes instructors do hold back to let their students figure stuff out on their own, but you can press him to see if he's doing that here if you're really frustrated. But 99%, I'd say you just need practice.
x4457@reddit
Your inexperience. You need to be scanning your altimeter and pitch attitude more frequently then you are currently.
You’re also probably not trimmed out even though you think you are.
You also might be death gripping the yoke and not realizing that you're pulling/pushing when you’re looking out at the point.
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
How can I fix death gripping because I feel like that’s definitely a big issue of mine. I’ve noticed it and a few instructors have aswell
roundthesail@reddit
Your body might be physically tense going into the maneuver. In your pre-maneuver checks (along with clearing turns and so on) take a second to unclench your shoulders, wiggle your fingers and toes, just loosen up your whole body.
(Oops, notice how the nose started to come down when you wiggled your fingers? You were holding some backpressure, trim that off and try it again.)
I know how annoying that is to hear, especially when you're tense because you're nervous about the maneuver not going well, but it really does help keep the airplane under better control. (Also try it on downwind and final, and see what that does for your landings.)
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
Will try this, this explanation seems pretty accurate thanks
Kemerd@reddit
Very easy fix. Hot potato the stick. Trim it. Hands off. Look outside. Trending up or down? Trim it, hands off. Only touch stick for 2-3 seconds at a time. For maneuvers just two finger it
bhalter80@reddit
The fix to death grip is trim. Make a change hold that pitch, trim away the control forces.
If you're pulling or pushing with big muscles you're going to get big movements. Using the trim lets you use small muscles instead to make small adjustments with little forward and back pressure
bigbadcrusher@reddit
Put a pen between your hand and the yoke. Also, learn your tells. Mine is my thumb starts to go numb and I feel it in the nail. When I feel that, it’s a good reminder to loosen up/breathe. Happens less and less as time goes on
x4457@reddit
Your instructors should be helping with this and it’s disappointing that they’re not.
Put a pen or pencil between your fingers. Behind your index finger, in front of your middle and ring fingers, and behind your pinky. You will be physically unable to death grip the controls without it hurting and you’ll still be able to retain full control of the yoke.
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
I might go practice the maneuvers solo and try this
DisregardLogan@reddit
Shake out your hands prior to entering a new manoeuvre. Sounds stupid but it works with me. Use only a few fingers, too
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
Will try this my next lesson, thanks
DisregardLogan@reddit
Yep
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
I realized I was leaving out the vsi in my scan and only looking at the altimeter
x4457@reddit
I wouldn’t put much stock at all in the VSI for visual maneuvers, particularly talking about what effectively amounts to +/- 300 FPM.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
Fair. But for whatever reason that helped me.
flyghu@reddit
You're probably not staying coordinated.
x4457@reddit
Coordination is not causing a 200 foot altitude variation.
flyghu@reddit
Not alone. But every other correction they try just piles on in a negative way.
Not saying is an etched in stone fact. But I had a young CFI that didn't look for it and no other suggestions were working, similar to OP. Flew with OG that corrected it and magic happened.
But hey, it's Reddit so downvote the only simple suggestion they didn't mention trying.
x4457@reddit
I fail to see how coordination would impact this at all, especially if properly trimmed.
flyghu@reddit
Quite frankly I fail to see how you don't see that incorrect yaw inputs at 45' bank aren't directly pitching the plane for altitude gain/loss. It is nuts that CFIs harp on students to stay coordinated in every other turn but think it magically doesn't matter in the most aggressive turn the student will make for their PPL.
You have a lot of flair so not sure if you even fly in a trainer anymore, but if you can get in the air in a trainer try it with four steep turns:
Those were easy peasy. With all your flair you flew both of those with less than +/- 10 feet deviation.
Turns 3 & 4 will give you the same effect OP is asking to solve. Sure, not the full +/-200' they state at first, but everything else they are trying is just making it worse and magnifying the problem. But try that too. Fly turn #4 but never correct the rudder and try correcting only with other inputs.
If you want the academics, search for Rich Stowell's Learn to Turn. Don't just watch the video, read the booklet too.
x4457@reddit
This isn’t a steep turn, it’s a turn around a point with ~10-25 degrees of bank angle.
And I own three GA airplanes, including an aerobatic aircraft and a trainer, so…
flyghu@reddit
OP specifically stated step turns so I picked that as my point. But it'll work for a turn around a point too. Try it with 60' turns if you want.
Cool about your planes. I only have one.
You've been flying it correct too long to be a struggling student. Go fly it internationally wrong and limit your corrections as I described. I'll wait.
White_Hawk33@reddit
Time to hit the weights bro
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
I’m a powerlifter
Zestyclose_Duck_9359@reddit
Honestly this trips up almost everyone at that stage you're not alone. The usual culprit is getting so locked onto the ground reference that you stop scanning inside. Try building a rhythm of quick glances back to the altimeter throughout the maneuver, not just at entry.
Also check your back pressure in the bank. Most people bleed altitude because they're not adding quite enough as it steepens. Consciously hold a little more than feels natural and see if that clicks.
Few-Caregiver-2652@reddit
Adding power during steep turns helped me with that maneuver. You’re trimmed for the air speed you’re at when you go into a speed bleeding turn—so you’re no longer trimmed in the turn. Just add some power before you start the turn and it should be easier.
bigbadcrusher@reddit
Adding 1 full swipe of back trim and 100 or so RPM was a good sweet spot for me. Don’t fight it, let the plane do the work. Your job should be monitoring it
vanhawk28@reddit
I do steep turns with 2400 rpm and 2 full swipes of the trim wheel and generally can almost be hands off once stabilized in the turn
harambe_did911@reddit
So as someone just barely ahead of your level ill give what helped me and then let the pros downvote me to hell and comment why im wrong.
Trim is impossible to get right without lots of experience with it so just set it a bit nose up and leave it. 30 degree bank takes basically zero back pressure. 45 takes a bit, and 60 takes a fuck ton. It also take a bunch of extra power. I say to myself fighter jet fighter jet during 60 degree turns cause that is what it feels like lol. You should feel some level of "g forces" during that 60 degree bank it is not a casual maneuver.
Outside references take forever to develop as well so I basically did all my maneuvers staring at the instruments. Instructors kinda hate this from what I've seen but it works well while you are still developing a feel and sight picture for things.
scottyh214@reddit
In my experience it comes down to two things. Trim and grip. If you can’t let go of the controls completely and the airplane stays exactly where you put it, you’re not trimmed well enough. If you can, it’s your grip. You’re gripping the yoke too hard. You should be able to fly every maneuver in the ACS with your thumb and forefinger. I had a cranky old instructor when I learned to fly a couple decades ago that told me that I should be more gentle with the yoke than I am with my pecker.
Goudamax@reddit
Once you set your bank, freeze the horizon at the exact spot on your glareshield/windscreen. If the horizon is moving up in relation to your windscreen you’ve started descending. Fine tune with vertical speed indicator. Don’t chase the altimeter.
Emdub81@reddit
Get used to looking out the windshield, add slight power when maneuvering, and you'll be fine.
Melodic_Visual1595@reddit
What’s causing you to lose altitude is trading the vertical component of lift with the horizontal component of lift while you turn. You need more back pressure on the yoke, more power, more trim, or some combination of the 3. Just keep practicing. You’ll develop the muscle memory.
Jestia76@reddit
The issue with most students I've seen who had this issue, was an easy fix, trim. Make sure when your setting up to give yourself space so you can get trimmed out for your maneuvering airspeed at your altitude, so you aren't fighting it as much when you actually start maneuvering
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
Should I be using the trim wheel throughout the maneuver or just for my entry?
Jestia76@reddit
Both, entry is more important generally.
Once your in the manuever, if you see yourself getting low, you fix it, then see yourself getting low again, you probably need a slight trim up.
The next thing to fix if trim is not the issue is most likely the scan. Its common for new students to hyperfixate on things, a common fix to this i have found that works well is to verbalize what your looking at: "good distance from my point, my altitude is good, my nose looks coordinated, distance still looks good, altitude is good, nose is good", and so on and so on.
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
So it’s like a constant flow, I shouldn’t fixate on one thing for too long
BarnackIIIF@reddit
>"So it’s like a constant flow
Yes. When flying you often have to continuously monitor and manage multiple things at the same time.
For example, when performing steep turns in a steam gauge 172 I am looking at: Speed, Bank, Altitude, Heading...look out the window...Speed, Bank, Altitude, Heading...look out the window...keep repeating throughout the maneuver and fix anything as needed.
What makes turns-around-a-point tricky is the amount of back pressure you will need will change with the amount of bank you are using: less bank, less back pressure, more bank, more back pressure.
Jestia76@reddit
Yes, constantly scanning helps to keep your mind on all elements of the manuever. There's alot going on while your flying, and just like when you were in your first week learning to drive, when you don't have that muscle memory yet your mind needs to actively do alot of little things to make it work.
rdrcrmatt@reddit
Look outside more. Until you can see the horizon as your reference against fixed objects on the panel / cowl, you will struggle with this.
EliteEthos@reddit
What does your CFI tell you to do?
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
You say you're trimmed out before entering the maneuvers, but what about during? You should be active with trim throughout all these.
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
So do you recommend I’m trimming out the plane as I’m going throughout the maneuver? Or focus on elevator pressure first
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
You should be trimming away whatever elevator pressure you need at any given moment. Don't fly with trim, but with enough practice you can preemptively roll in the trim you might need, then fine-tune it.
ProperIntern7989@reddit (OP)
Thanks will make these adjustments
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
To preface this I’ve already consulted my instructor + multiple others and still can’t seem to get a fix.
During S turns, Turns around a point, steep turns etc I struggle to hold altitude halfway through the maneuver or by the end I’m +-200ft and way out of ACS standards, I’ve practiced on calm wind days, windy days, and I make sure I’m trimmed out prior to entering my maneuvers. What could be causing me to not hold altitude?
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