Why are run-on sentences more acceptable in British English?
Posted by Icy_Mixture1482@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 266 comments
I see this quite often. Even government websites which you’d expect to have trained editors contain many instances of run-on sentences:
“Your documents will be returned in 4–6 weeks, this is normal and isn’t a cause for concern.”
“The NHS is committed to ensuring the safety of our people, the police will be called if necessary to deal with violent behaviour towards our staff.”
I don’t expect any Anglophone to use semicolons, but I travel a bit for work and see this type of use less regularly in other English-speaking countries.
Do you think it’s purposely like this to look more conversational or less threatening?
Radiant_Office6445@reddit
Bluddy luv me semicolons me
Apprehensive-Top3675@reddit
I am genuinely stunned by the number of people in the comments here who are convinced that it’s grammatically correct to use a comma in that context.
RyvitaBrevis@reddit
Comma splices are allowed in British English. Just as it’s acceptable to use plural verb agreement for a corporate entity. The team are happy, Sainsburys are selling, etc. Different rules apply.
0oO1lI9LJk@reddit
Who decides what is grammatically correct in UK English? UK English speakers as a body. If most people in the country think this sentence structure is fine, then it's fine.
saccerzd@reddit
Most people seem to think using 'myself' and 'yourself' non-reflexively is correct, or that "could of" is acceptable. Doesn't make it right. You can't link two sentences with a comma.
TroublesZoo@reddit
If a majority of people use it that way, and think that way is fine, then it is.
That's how alive anguages gradually evolve as its users change how it gets used.
GrabbedByTheGhost@reddit
No no, not the "alive" thing again. If there are no rules then what's the point in anything?
hiddenhare@reddit
There are rules (of a sort), but those rules change over time.
FUCKFASCISTSCUM@reddit
Best get learning old English then mate, since it should never have evolved or changed.
Fanny_Flapps@reddit
That's what the yanks use for an excuse when their education system fails them.
Sorry *there education system. Evolution of language innit
Rowdy_Roddy_2022@reddit
The grammatical rule around comma splicing, like most English grammar, is a stylistic one.
It's technically incorrect so I wouldn't expect to see it in formal writing; however, it's also very common in informal contexts.
English grammar is very much a system of "context is King". Rules which people think are iron-clad are broken in Shakespeare all the time, for example.
dospc@reddit
OP's examples are formal writing though!
wizard_mitch@reddit
Gov.uk information like this is intentionally written in a conversational way based on the plain English standard.
See: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-uk
dospc@reddit
Yes, but it also talks about clarity and using short sentences.
Run-on sentences create confusion and are hard to read. I have never seen them on gov.uk.
XihuanNi-6784@reddit
This is clearly context dependent and definitely not always the case, especially if you use the examples above. Those aren't confusing at all.
VodkaMargarine@reddit
You don't capitalise "king" when it's being used as a metaphor; only when used as a proper noun.
Sir_Madfly@reddit
Exactly. It’s just flat-out wrong. You can’t just force together two separate sentences with a comma in between. You would need to add a word such as ’and’.
Whoever wrote them has picked up that habit from texting. It’s acceptable there, but you can’t write the same way in a formal context!
JLAshbourne@reddit
The same government cuts that lead to grammatical errors in public services have devastated the education system as well.
CreativeAdeptness477@reddit
None of those abovementioned sentences, in my humble yet well-read opinion, are really what i'd consider to be a run on sentence given that the major aspect of being a run on sentence, one of the aspects at any rate - a singular aspect yet quite a prominent aspect nevertheless - is being particularly (and somewhat unnecessarily) verbose with quite a preponderance of sub-clauses and other punctuation gymnastics; indeed the given examples of this as shown in the original post seem, to this humble reader's eyes at any rate, to be somewhat brief and of a rather conventional structure with minimal punctuation.
blither86@reddit
Beautifully crafted
LeonsFloppyHair@reddit
I wouldn't call it that at all. American wowed by long sentences.
blither86@reddit
You think I'm a yank? 😅
No, I'm just a Yorkshireman who stays up too late.
LeonsFloppyHair@reddit
Apologies for the vile insult then. Usually it's Americans I see who are impressed by AI passages or long, overly (but not skilfully) wrought sentences. It's like wine. A lot of people can't discern good from bad by taste alone. Just like Americans struggle to discern good writing from bad.
blither86@reddit
What do you think of Cormack McCarthy? My guess is you'll be scathing heh.
callforththestorm@reddit
Cormac McCarthy does not write like this at all. Lol
blither86@reddit
I'm sorry but I've read at least two of his books that have sentences that over half a page long? Do you mind elaborating on what exactly you mean because I'm struggling to make sense of this. I've literally pointed out pages of his books to other people and showed the beginning and end of the sentences with my fingers, to make my point to them. If you Google him, he's literally known for it, it's called polysyndeton.
"Cormac McCarthy is renowned for using long, polysyndeton-heavy sentences (connected by "and") that create a poetic, rhythmic, and often chaotic flow. These sentences appear frequently in Blood Meridian and All the Pretty Horses, blending immense, detailed imagery with a relentless, driving pace that often spans hundreds of words without traditional punctuation."
https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/7ktcdm/from_blood_meridian_the_greatest_runon_sentence/
LeonsFloppyHair@reddit
Actually haven't read any of his books because the glazing gets to me too much.i read Ulysses last year and the entire collection of Proust before that. Now those are some run-on sentences...
blither86@reddit
I'd recommend experiencing it, at least Blood Meridian and the other associated ones. I can't say if they live up to the hype but they're certainly an experience I would recommend.
callforththestorm@reddit
Recommending books you either haven't read, or didn't take in at all.
wobshop@reddit
Literally the point of the comment was to be a long sentence
LeonsFloppyHair@reddit
Yeah I know, it just wasn't skillfully done.
callforththestorm@reddit
Mate you should be a cult leader or something. You've managed to so vehemently convince so many people that you're right while a cursive google search or basic familiarity with English grammar shows you are completely wrong. Amazing.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
A run-on sentence can literally be:
https://libguides.hull.ac.uk/grammar/run-ons
Your logic is flawed. A run-on sentence doesn’t need to be full of flourish just so you can try to dismiss the initial claim.
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
This example is missing punctuation, unlike the other examples you've posted. If it had a comma after 'samples' then it wouldn't be a run-on sentence. Your own link literally has it as the definition.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
That’s from a university. Perhaps you’d better get in touch with whichever professor or lecturer wrote this example.
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
Is this ragebait? Their example is a correct example of a run-on sentence, yours are not. I think you should have made sure you understood the concept before making the post.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
From the same article: “[t]his is incorrect and creates a special kind of run-on called a comma splice.
Emphasis mine.
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
You don't understand the concept. It's that simple. This post is very funny though, please keep it up
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
You don’t seem to understand a comma splice is a type of run-on sentence lol.
They’re not two different things!
https://www.butte.edu/departments/cas/tipsheets/grammar/run_ons.html
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
You've posted an example from an American university. FFS. Also, that's your opinion and is not common usage.
Where did you study?
callforththestorm@reddit
The cheek of this! Lol!!
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
At the risk of being doxxed, Bristol University.
Many moons ago.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
At the risk of being doxxed, Bristol University.
Many moons ago.
callforththestorm@reddit
How are you so confidently wrong? It's crazy!
The long sentence above is NOT a run-on!
The sentence provided by OP absolutely is! It's called a fused sentence which is an example of a run-on sentence.
DerGregorian@reddit
I mean what they said is perfectly correct though.
The example given which you quoted is a run on sentence which is different to your original examples because both of those contain punctuation to correct it. In the thing you posted it's even shown below with the two follow ups which correct the run on sentence.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Yes, you’ll notice they don’t use commas because that would create (in some of the cases) comma splices.
If you click the link at the bottom, it’ll lead you to more examples of comma splices.
But to use the page I linked to, which includes a run-on sentence.
Adding a comma here would create a comma splice (a specific type of run on sentence):
You could make this more readable for less able readers easily using an em dash (at the risk of aping AI):
For more able readers, you could use a semicolon:
IMO, a full stop would sound too abrupt:
theiridescentwizard@reddit
I don't think you've understood the examples in the link provided
IllegalGrapefruit@reddit
No one is claiming that the article is wrong.
Brittik@reddit
My brother in christ, I think the issue is your reading comprehension.
Yesandberries@reddit
If you put a comma after 'samples', it would be a comma splice, which is just another type of run-on sentence.
callforththestorm@reddit
Mate you are completely right. I feel like I'm going insane reading this thread! The long rambly sentence above is not even a run-on sentence! God help the English language.
Noushbertine@reddit
I have to say, I'm much more aggravated by the nonsense sentence breaks that I'm seeing more frequently now.
You could break my above sentence into: 'I'm much more aggravated by nonsense sentence breaks. I'm seeing them more frequently now.' But then you lose the relationship of the clauses, which was kind of the point of the sentence in the first place.
However, the above at least continues to make sense. What I increasingly see is things like 'While I understand shorter sentences. Make for easier reading. This is nonsense.' This should all be one sentence of three clauses. You cannot have a sentence that begins 'while', yet remains unresolved by the end of the same sentence. Nor does 'Make for easier reading.' make sense in isolation, which all sentences need to: where's the fucking subject?!
While we're on it, why does everyone seem to be dropping the 'to be' from 'needs to be [past participle]' structures. E.g. 'needs replaced', 'needs discussed', 'needs sorted' instead of 'needs to be replaced', 'needs to be discussed', 'needs to be sorted'?
I'm guessing either influence of non-anglophone bots, or modern editing tools obsession with hating passive voice. Sometimes you need passive voice. This is one of those occasions!
ForwardImagination71@reddit
I noticed that they've been doing this in Scottish dialect for a very long time.
Noushbertine@reddit
Ah! At least that makes more sense. I have very little irl exposure to Scottish people.
NorthAstronaut@reddit
please dont read my comments.
Extreme_Objective984@reddit
I think this is due to tools that doe SOE, and tools like Grammarly. They seem to not like long sentences with lots of punctuation in them, so they highlight them as something to be simplified with a full stop.
Noushbertine@reddit
Urgh, Grammarly (and similar tools) has ruined students' ability to read their own work.
Perfect example: I once had to mark an essay with the sentence 'The cross is on the Carthage.' Makes grammatical sense: subject verb preposition object; but makes no sense sense. She meant Carthaginian mint coins [also] had crosses on them.
Editors are tools to be used alongside your intelligence, not a replacement for it!
MrRedDoctor@reddit
Being Italian, a language in which long sentences are quite common and actually well-regarded, it took me a while to understand the irony of this comment. It just seemed like a well articulated sentence that I have no issue following whatsoever lol. One of the trickiest things for me to get used to when I started learning English, and tbf even now almosg 20 years after speaking English on a daily basis (I live in the UK), was forcing myself to go back to the sentence I just wrote and just put full stops here and there to break it up. It's completely unnatural to me, as it feels like it interrupts the natural flow.
gobacktoyourutopia@reddit
Even in English, short sentences only really became the norm in the 20th Century. If you read English-language literature before then, long, labyrinthine sentences were much more common. I'm with you though: I a prefer long, fluid sentence with many nested clauses, to multiple broken-up, staccato sentences and paragraphs. One of my favourite modern writers in English in this style (W.G. Sebald) was actually German, though lived in England for 30 years, and took inspiration from older English writers like Thomas Browne and Thomas De Quincey, who were famous for the elaborate, serpentine style of their prose.
DustTechnical4561@reddit
French likes long sentences also, I have to break English sentences up for the same reason. (I'm an English native speaker but spent much time in France and wrote a lot in French when younger).
superjambi@reddit
You may enjoy the writing of Virginia Wolf.
spikeboy4@reddit
TIL I don't know what a run-on sentence is and that I'm probably bad at English.
callforththestorm@reddit
You do! This person is completely wrong!
Dependent_River_2966@reddit
Nope. Run on sentences or comma splicing is where a sentence is incorrectly punctuated. A comma is used to separate main clauses rather than using: a full stop; a semi colon; a conjunction
callforththestorm@reddit
Right, I am going insane. How are people eating this up?
VodkaMargarine@reddit
I wish you hadn't hidden your comment history I want to read more of your comments
CreativeAdeptness477@reddit
No you don't. It's just shitposts, wrestling , and 3d printing.
BuncleCar@reddit
That's easy for you to say, Humphrey...
1stredditusername@reddit
I see what you did there. I now realise as ADHD person, this is pretty much every sentence I ever write because there is always a thought, and another, yet another, and a bonus addendum.
Kharenis@reddit
My writing is often heavily laden with parentheses.
blob8543@reddit
Life is complex, sentences need to be as well.
Terry__Tibbs@reddit
As an editor, they are run on sentences. It doesn't mean just a really long sentence. There should be full stops instead of comma splicing
dospc@reddit
Ironically, you have not used a comma splice in the manner of OP's examples, only dashes and semicolons. Yours is unwieldy and poor style; OP's examples are incorrect.
lankymjc@reddit
Ah, Sir Humphrey, not seen you for a while!
Katharinemaddison@reddit
This person Victorian novels.
Renew3DUK@reddit
Is that you Russell Brand?
keithb@reddit
But your sentence isn't a run on, the examples given are run-on. Your sentence is long and complex, those sentences have two complete clauses. Run on sentences don't have to be extensive, the comma-splice is the main punctation marker of them. Your sentence addresses one subject throughout, an un-coordinated new subject is the hallmark of the run-on.
bez_lightyear@reddit
This post reminds me of when I tried to read To The Lighthouse by Virginia Woolf and my brain dribbled out of my ears.
smoulderstoat@reddit
It is a pleasure to have you here, Sir Humphrey. I agree completely.
MadmanDan_13@reddit
Bringing out the old references. Lol.
I've been rewatching Yes, Minister, and it still holds up.
bubblechog@reddit
I introduced my American Husband to this a little while ago - it’s actually scary how relevant it still is.
gorroval@reddit
blob8543@reddit
Well played.
Monsoon_Storm@reddit
I find your punctuational gymnastics inspirational! I have the sudden urge to go back to writing my thesis…
Teleopsis@reddit
Excellent work sir.
JinxThePetRock@reddit
This is breathtaking, both literally and figuratively.
RoleMysterious8756@reddit
Breathtaking? You need to get out more.
WillBots@reddit
r/whooosh
shinchunje@reddit
Very clever. Well done. But the above are run on sentenced.
PowerApp101@reddit
Are you Mr Logic from Viz?
SpaceWomble64@reddit
Your username checks out. That’s a great response. 🙂
Dazpiece@reddit
You beautiful bastard.
BarracudaFar1905@reddit
LOL
ProsodySpeaks@reddit
More than what? Shall we get some American government documents to compare?
onionsareawful@reddit
americans are way more strict about things like comma splices. the funny thing is american government documents will 100% have far less of these issues.
Illustrious-Plum1766@reddit
“Fewer
Boglin007@reddit
There's nothing wrong with "less" there. "Less" has been used with plurals for over 1000 years, i.e., since Old English. It's fully grammatical, albeit considered more informal these days.
The "rule" about only using "fewer" with plurals likely arose a couple of hundred years ago, based solely on one man's opinion that it sounds more elegant. But it's not a real rule of grammar - at best it's a style recommendation for formal writing.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/fewer-vs-less
lolimatworklmao@reddit
The irony of this comment.
Boglin007@reddit
Sorry, I don’t see it. Can you explain?
RoutineCloud5993@reddit
I write for a living, studied English to A Level and arguably have a better grasp of English than most people.
I have no idea what a run on sentence is.
It's acceptable because nobody ever told us what it was, let alone that it isn't acceptable. If I were to guess id assume it's one of those rules that Americans tried to enforce and failed at - like "no ending a sentence in a preposition."
No fucking clue what a preposition is, either.
callforththestorm@reddit
Why be so proud of your ignorance?
Also, I'm afraid that if you studied English to A-Level there is a one trillion percent chance you were taught about comma splicing and run-on sentences.
Hot-Health7006@reddit
It's not something the Americans forced on us. It is standard syntax.
In basic terms, the OP is saying that 2 independent sentences (clauses) are not joined correctly by the use of a single comma.
By independent, it means that each sentence contains a subject + verb + complete thought. When joining 2 of these together you should not use a comma to splice them.
One way (and there are others) to join the sentences together is to use FANBOYS (for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so).
...and a preposition is just a word that tells us where something is relating to subjects such as; time, place, location or manner.
Words like in. on, at, above, behind, into etc.
I have a Bachelor of Arts (B.A.) in English BTW.
GLA_Postal_Services@reddit
Thanks for being helpful and explaining what a run on sentence is. Unlike some of the insufferable idiots below.
What is the consequence of the two sentence not being separated or correctly linked? I've tried separating the examples OP gave and tried linking them using the appropriate word from FANBOYS but I can't see what effect it has. One of the insufferables below says a proof reader would flag these sentences but doesn't say why they'd be flagged
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
It blurs where one distinct idea ends and the next begins, making the writing appear rushed, unpolished, and disorganised.
A few simple ones can be effective: “I came, I saw, I conquered” is super easy to read. It also is less clunky than “I saw, and then I came, and then I conquered.” Also, it’s a literary quote, and authors can get away with a lot more in the name of creativity.
But a long document full of comma splices gets confusing. The two I included are short and out of context, so relatively easy to understand.
SomethingMoreToSay@reddit
That's a very interesting example. One might argue that the three clauses should be separated a bit more: “I came; I saw; I conquered.” That might be more grammatically correct. But I think the commas deliberately give the sense of blurring the ideas together. They invoke a sense of inevitability which isn't there if you use semi-colons.
lomlom7@reddit
All of the examples you give in your OP are perfectly clear and easy to read. I think you think they are rushed, unpolished and disorganised because you know they are run-on sentences, not because they actually are.
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
But they're not. They have punctuation between clauses. This post is, at best, a little misguided.
Boglin007@reddit
They are run-on sentences by the "official" definition. A run-on is either two independent clauses (full sentences) separated by just a comma, or two independent clauses separated by no punctuation.
The latter is pretty universally considered incorrect, i.e., not acceptable in any genre of writing. The former has its place as a stylistic device in some genres of writing, e.g., fiction, but it's not usually considered acceptable in straightforward formal writing.
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
There's no 'official' in English. OP posted three examples with no punctuation between clauses, and then a link to an article with a completely different definition.
Boglin007@reddit
Which examples are you talking about? The ones in OP's post do have punctuation, and you said so yourself in your other comment. I'm also not seeing a link from OP.
And yes, that's why I put "official" in quotes, but you'll be hard pressed to find a style guide that does not consider those run-ons/incorrect. Here's one example:
TheOrchidsAreAlright@reddit
They do now, post just got edited.
Boglin007@reddit
No, it didn't. I saw (and commented on) the post hours ago, and even before that I saw the identical post they made in r/grammar - the commas were always there.
SassySirennn@reddit
None of your examples were confusing, and I highly doubt you found them confusing either, given that you’re now discussing the mechanics of the issue.
Writing should be judged by how clearly and effectively it communicates. Not by a blind obedience to rules imposed by a bunch of grammar Nazis who tried to freeze the English language at one arbitrary moment in its history.
A moment when the language was already messy, culturally shaped, adaptive, and evolving.
Boglin007@reddit
There isn't a very satisfactory answer to this. It's really just about orthographic convention and the punctuation guidelines that we're expected to follow (and that we expect to see) in formal writing. Commas are considered a "weaker" punctuation mark than full stops and semicolons, i.e., they are not considered sufficient to separate two independent clauses (clauses that can stand alone as full sentences). Would it cause confusion? Not necessarily, though it might make the sentence a little harder to read at first. The main issue is that, due to the conventions, we expect a dependent clause or a phrase to follow a comma, not another independent clause. So when we read a sentence with a comma splice (two independent clauses separated by just a comma), we expect that second clause to be dependent on the first, i.e., more connected in meaning and syntax to the first clause than another independent clause would be. So it may cause initial confusion/you may need to reread the sentence to see that it's actually two independent clauses.
But in general there isn't a great deal of logic when it comes to punctuation, and we can see this by comparing languages. In English, we do not use a comma before "that" when it introduces a dependent clause:
"I think that he is nice."
But in German, they do use a comma in this kind of construction:
"Ich glaube, dass er nett ist."
As an English speaker, I'm sure you see no need for a comma there, but in German it's just the convention to use a comma to separate any dependent clause from the main clause.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Wonderfully put.
Hot-Health7006@reddit
To be honest, the consequences of using a comma to split the sentences is not too bad if does not change the context of the whole sentence. We actually need the comma to split the 2 sentences. it is the omission of a coordinating conjunction (FANBOYS) that is the problem.
It's kinda up there grammar-wise with "Me and my friends" instead of "My friends and I"
A proofreader would flag it quickly, as they are taught grammar as a math equation.
The equation for 2 independent clauses goes like this...
Subject + Verb + Complete thought + Comma + Coordinating Conjunction + Subject + Verb + Complete thought + Full-stop.
I'm more in favour of comprehension over than correct grammar BTW.
nwrnnr5@reddit
For prepositions, I always was taught the trick "The bee flew _____ the bottle". If the word can be put into the blank and the sentence makes sense, the word is a preposition.
Hot-Health7006@reddit
99% of the time, you would be correct, but we have prepositions like of and as that would not fit.
The Prince of Wales / I used my jumper as a pillow
It's a bit like the I before E except after C rule. Generally true, but there is always an exception or 2.
dospc@reddit
Jesus, this is like saying "I did A level maths and do calculations for a living and I've never heard of these "square numbers".
hhfugrr3@reddit
Writing is also a big part of my job. But, i look at my daughter's English work - she is in primary school - and I don't understand half of it.
I'm also learning French at the moment and I've realised i don't have a clue what a present perfect, past perfect or any of the other tenses are... I somehow manage to speak though so 🤷
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Specifically, the comma splices.
Sir-Beardless@reddit
Thats the whole point of the comma; compound sentences are part of English, if you dont use them you're not utilising the whole language.
onionsareawful@reddit
commas shouldn't be used to join together two independent clauses. that's what a comma splice is.
WetDogDeodourant@reddit
But they’re not independent. The writer wants you to keep those two clauses tight together in your head. The comma is a deliberate choice serving a purpose.
Boglin007@reddit
"Independent clause" is a grammatical/syntactic classification - it's not about meaning.
An independent clause usually has at least a subject and a finite verb (a verb agreeing with the subject and conveying tense), e.g., "I see." Sometimes, even a subject is not required, e.g., with imperatives (commands): "Go!"
That said, it certainly can be a stylistic choice to separate independent clauses with just a comma, but this is usually seen in genres of writing where punctuation conventions are more flexible, e.g., fiction. It's not generally considered acceptable in straightforward formal writing, which is what OP's examples are taken from.
Swayfromleftoright@reddit
You’re right it was a deliberately choice. It was just a grammatically incorrect one.
There’s a semi colon for that. The writer probably just didn’t listen in school, like most of you here
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
“Independent clause” may be a confusing name. It doesn’t mean they don’t have a connection to each other.
It simply means they can each be written separately and still be a complete sentence out of context.
For example:
Here there are two independent clauses and both could stand as their own independent sentence that would make sense alone:
A dependent clause is one that doesn’t make any sense alone.
Here, “When Jill fell down the hill” is a dependent clause because it’s not a complete thought. It needs (depends on) the rest of the sentence to make sense.
adamtrousers@reddit
I'm British, and it concerns me that you see no issue with the examples given by OP. It means you have no understanding of what a sentence is.
Guitar-Inner@reddit
I'm british and you sound insuferable
onionsareawful@reddit
insufferable but not wrong. the examples have obvious issues and any remotely qualified proofreader would flag them.
rising_then_falling@reddit
I agree, but nobody can afford proofreaders any more!
Sir_Madfly@reddit
It isn’t correct though. You cannot join two independent sentences with just a comma. You need to add a ’joining word’ such as ’and’.
MojoMomma76@reddit
As another British English language teacher - the fact that you don’t know what a run on sentence is, is a little concerning. Can you see my example in this post?
I learned Spanish from a native speaker and the way she taught grammar (ie properly) was quite a shock but it helped me become much more fluid and fluent much more quickly. I also have English Language and Literature at A level.
You might find teaching that bit more fruitful and successful with your learners if you also knew the grammar - TEFL and CELTA are good for this and will also help you teach abroad. Sorry if this comes off as condescending or patronising, it’s not meant to. We’re just rubbish at actually teaching the rules of English here in the UK and when you try to teach it yourself, you’re missing essential skills, I was in any case. And I found the TEFL extremely helpful.
Teaching one language and learning another really helps appreciate this.
RoutineCloud5993@reddit
I'm not an English teacher, never said I was. I don't have the patience for teaching
PatientArugula7504@reddit
Is my English comprehension completely failing or did the person you’re responding to edit their comment? I can’t see that they teach English.
Your comment does come across as quite rude, by the way.
MeatGayzer69@reddit
I don't see them mentioning being a teacher either. This person just looks like a bell end now
MojoMomma76@reddit
I taught English with my TEFL cert for a year in South America. I don’t care about the downvotes, but I am seriously concerned about someone trying to teach our language without any serious comprehension of the language itself. If the OP doesn’t understand what a preposition is, or a run on sentence, then they are doing a serious disservice to their students unless it is at a very surface level of English conversation. They are not helping that person get that CELTA to get into a completely unrelated qualification course to get their doctor’s certification passed from one regime to another, for example. They are teaching idiomatic English. That’s fine for ordering coffee or having a chat but they are really hurting people who need to pass a qualification course to transfer exams, and therefore I think they are defrauding the unfortunate people they are ‘teaching’ as I don’t think they are ‘teaching’ at all.
MeatGayzer69@reddit
Where is the mentioning of teaching. They said they're a writer
MojoMomma76@reddit
In my literal first sentence. I am tearing my hair out here.
Giant_Gaystacks@reddit
I'd stop if I were you.
Nobody is questioning where you said you were a teacher, u/MojoMomma76. They're talking about u/RoutineCloud5993 who hasn't said they're a teacher.
The confusion starts where u/MojoMomma76 starts a post with 'As another British English language teacher...', in reply to u/RoutineCloud5993, as though they had declared they are a teacher.
MeatGayzer69@reddit
Routinecloud says they are a writer. Not a teacher. Are we talking about different people ?
AmeliaOfAnsalon@reddit
They're saying that RoutineCloud never said that they are a teacher, only that they write for a living
MojoMomma76@reddit
I’m done with engaging with people who can’t actually read
AskUK-ModTeam@reddit
Don't be a dick to each other, or other subreddits, places, or people.
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PatientArugula7504@reddit
Surely this is ragebait lol
MojoMomma76@reddit
I’ve only just realised it probably is. More fool me for trying to have a proper conversation.
PatientArugula7504@reddit
Genuinely what are you on about? They aren’t teaching?
MojoMomma76@reddit
You’re confusing the person I am responding to with the original commenter. Easy to do but please don’t catch me in your strays as they’re sharp.
BellendBuilder@reddit
I checked via desktop browser rather than the app. He hasn’t edited a thing she’s just being a tit.
Tim_B@reddit
Write for public consumption too, have done for a decade, never heard of this stuff either.
Weirdly I've realised I think I always tend to put a dash rather than a comma a lot of the time, as a comma felt lacking in heft for breaking a sentence, although don't always think you need a FALLOUTBOY or whatever.
It seems this is all an Americanism of being prescriptive and standardised in their teaching and testing. At the end of the day if you're getting meaning across who gives an fuck.
But also maybe UK could benefit from teaching a bit more of the structures in English....
Anyway, what did Orwell say? "Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous".... I'm not writing like some weirdo yank who has no nuance if I can fumble around with fun phrase or whatever
4oclockinthemorning@reddit
Why do you think having consistent grammar rules is an americanism? You write 'at the end of the day of you're getting meaning across who gives a fuck' in the same comment as you quote Orwell on use of English. In case anyone didn't read Orwell on the topic, he absolutely did give a fuck
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
To be fair to Orwell, he did say, “Break any of [the rules he just listed] sooner than say anything outright barbarous,” so even he knew we can forgive a comma splice or two if it sounds better.
Similar to how Churchill is reputed to have said “This is the kind of nonsense up with which I shall not put!” when told never to end a sentence with a preposition.
Tim_B@reddit
I meant the run on stuff, particularly.
Im absolutely a stickler for the rules... But also if it's not within my power then what right do I have to tell other people to write?
If someone understands, then you've written correctly.
FenianBastard847@reddit
With is a bad word to end a sentence with.
Patch86UK@reddit
For my money the example sentences are fine except they need to use a semicolon rather than a comma.
People do seem to be allergic to semicolons, though.
Albert_Herring@reddit
Absolutely nothing to do with Americans - that's a "rule" promulgated by 17th century grammarians who venerated classical Latin above all and attempted to shoehorn its structures into English.
I guess you're a data point in support of OP's thesis, though (I was definitely taught what a run-on sentence is, but I'm old and my dad was a magazine editor for many years so I'm probably an outlier). Not knowing what a preposition is is a bit of a shocker, though, even if the modern linguist in me prods me to note that the existence of 'parts of speech' is to some extent a lie for children, a model to get some basics across without worrying too much about fine details.
Midnight7000@reddit
Wow.
So ignorant and so confident.
jenni_jen85@reddit
Idk without it it just sounds rude in the first one, too abrupt 😂 I think it is meant to sound conversational for sure
saccerzd@reddit
But it needs a full stop or semi colon, not a comma.
Fred776@reddit
Are you one of these youngsters I have read about who get offended by punctuation?
cherrycocoakoala@reddit
This is it, its all about politeness / straying from blunt communication. We like to keep sentences less abrupt and conversational.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Is “The NHS is committed to ensuring the safety of our people, so the police will be called if necessary to deal with violent behaviour towards our staff,” that much more abrupt?
lomlom7@reddit
Is it that much better owing to its grammatical correctness?
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Yes. It flows because there’s a logical connection — it doesn’t just plough on.
Albert_Herring@reddit
Yes. But I am but a humble user of NHS services with some copy editing experience.
jodorthedwarf@reddit
You just know that sentences like that have been discussed in board meetings and checked and re-checked in order to determine the best way to write it without it seeming rude.
onionsareawful@reddit
Well yeah, we don't speak in formal English! But yes, a semicolon or a full stop would be the correct punctuation instead of the comma used.
I think most people just don't know that it's an issue.
nemmalur@reddit
I think a lot of people genuinely don’t know a run-on sentence when they see one.
callforththestorm@reddit
Made extremely evident by the top comment of this thread...
AcceptableCustomer89@reddit
And don't care enough if they do
OK_LK@reddit
Or a semicolon
The_Blip@reddit
When there's such a helpful song to identify them with?
Djinfin@reddit
I’d have trouble identifying my own colon tbh
selfinflatedforeskin@reddit
I'll help you look
Djinfin@reddit
Not with a username like that you won’t 🤔
selfinflatedforeskin@reddit
don't worry,it's just a semi
Mysterious_Use4478@reddit
I get a semi when I’m feeling around for my colon
techbear72@reddit
Like OP.
UnderpantsInfluencer@reddit
It's because we don't know. Never taught it. Never taught how to English properly, just taught to get by in this shitty education system. 40 years later it's not any better.
RudeEntry8219@reddit
Most people can't write, and the proportion that can't is getting larger, which means that, even in official publications, this rubbish gets published, because there's no-one to spot and correct errors. Others have said we're heading towards a post-literal society, and it looks as if they're correct.
hang-clean@reddit
Because people don't learn how to use semicolons; nor do they learn to use apostrophes.
creamyTiramisu@reddit
OP, could you link to where those examples come from? An exact terms search isn't returning anything.
DameKumquat@reddit
Most people now age 40+ didn't learn much English grammar at school and never got taught how to use semi-colons or what a run-on sentence is or that it's wrong.
So over the last 20 years they've started appearing in public messaging because no-one said it was wrong. So give it another 20 years and it'll just be a few over-70s like me gritting out teeth because it's become totally standard English.
I'll give in on 'alright' if we can nuke the run-ons.
werewolfbutch874@reddit
It’s weird how little formal English grammar we learn at school. I did an A Level in English Language and Literature and still don’t remember learning much grammar, though granted that was 17 years ago now so I might have just forgotten.
The only people I know who actually know all the rules and terms for English grammar are people from other countries who learned English as a second language at school. I have a friend who learned English as her third language; she works as an editor for English language publications, fixing errors made by native English speakers.
(The context of the thread is making me really self-conscious about my poor grammar in this comment!)
DameKumquat@reddit
Since Michael Gove, though, y6 SATs require ridiculous knowledge of grammar terms and it's gone the other way. Anyone under 18 will shudder when you mention "frontal adverbials"...
werewolfbutch874@reddit
Oh yeah I remember - my mum’s a TA in a primary school and I remember her asking me if I’d heard of some of the grammar concepts the year 6s were learning and I was completely baffled! I wonder how much of it they’ll actually remember, maybe in 20 years they’ll be sitting here going “we never learned that did we?”
DameKumquat@reddit
IME, teenagers can spot grammar errors in sentences when explicitly asked, but haven't had much practice writing much themselves. The latter would be more useful (luckily mine read a lot so can copy the style of whatever they've just read. I just hope the GCSE markers for English are Pratchett fans this year...)
Prior_Mushroom9393@reddit
I’m 31 and learnt all of the above; however, text messaging (combined with the lack of formal writing practice since leaving uni) has completely eroded much of the grammar knowledge I’d accrued and it’s likely this is the case for many others. I’m sure the previous sentence is riddled with errors; though, as a fan of Salman Rushdie’s writing, I cannot bring myself to start using Hemingway-style short sentences.
onionsareawful@reddit
Yep, nearly everything I know about grammar I learnt at university (a US one too!). They seem to take smaller issues like comma splices more seriously there.
BuncleCar@reddit
They can sound very Sir Humphrey-ish :))
dospc@reddit
Sir Humphrey is well-educated (over-edcated?) and would use semicolons — annoying but not incorrect.
Using a comma usually means the writer is not particularly well educated.
Aspirational1@reddit
Insert an 'although' in the first sentence, and a 'therefore' in the second one, and everything is cool.
dospc@reddit
It would be better to just split them into two sentences.
Apprehensive-Top3675@reddit
In the second case, you would still have the same issue. ‘Therefore’ is a conjunctive adverb, so it would need to be:
‘The NHS is committed to ensuring the safety of our people; therefore, the police will be called if necessary to deal with violent behaviour towards our staff.’
kbkvvuknklnni8888@reddit
They could use a semi-colon but they want it to be as accessible as possible. Not confuse people who have no idea what a semi-colon is.
MimiKal@reddit
A dash would also work - this feels more accessible than a semicolon.
Diligent_Explorer717@reddit
No, not at all. They’re fine as they are.
dospc@reddit
I think this is selection bias. How often do you deal with public services in other countries?
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Like I said I travel for work, so I often deal with the immigration and healthcare sections of foreign governments’ websites.
dospc@reddit
Ok, to be clear I totally agree those sentences are incorrect.
I'm interested in what kind of British websites you saw them on. A big government website is usually written by professional comms people who would have good style and would not do this.
The people who write like this are likely operational staff for whom writing is not their key skill. I would expect to see it in, say, emails from individual staff or ad-hoc content. I think the only place I've seen on a website recently is for my GP surgery where it was probably written by the receptionist.
Decard_Pain@reddit
I mean this isn't "British-English" it's English, guess whose language it is?
If we do it a certain way and other countries don't, well you can rightly assume those other countries are wrong.
You're welcome.
saxbophone@reddit
You talk as if putting two clauses in one sentence is semantically invalid, it's quite correct actually.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
“I came, I saw, I conquered” is a famous example of a comma splice, and they can be used in literature to great effect because they can create a hurried, urgent tone.
But in technical or government writing, they’re incorrect:
https://libguides.hull.ac.uk/grammar/commasplices
They create an impression of rushed, unprofessional writing. To improve readability, it’s normal to use a conjunction, full stops, or a semicolon.
Difficult_Egg_4350@reddit
They create the impression of rushed unprofessional writing because the people writing for gov.uk are rushed and not professional writers. They are often policy people, not trained comms people. And in my experience you are often given very little time to get something written, cleared and published. Add to that, the focus will be on whether something gets the relevant information across clearly - and let's be honest, no one is going to misunderstand the sentences you quoted - not on grammar rules that many people who read gov.uk will not be aware of (and indeed may be put off by - adding semicolons for example is just asking for a portion of people to disengage).
ten_ton_tardigrade@reddit
It’s not the semantics, it’s the syntax. A grammatical sentence can contain infinite clauses but they need to be joined by something other than a comma.
onionsareawful@reddit
joining independent clauses with a comma is not correct.
mailywhale@reddit
A lot of nonsense in this thread. I believe it’s to do with how we’re taught commas at school, which is that it’s breathing space, so as we write we tend to just use the comma as a tool to reflect how we’d say it. Maybe this is less true in other countries
A lot of people on this thread don’t identify the examples you gave as wrong, and I frequently use commas this way myself for clarity on e.g. Reddit or messages
dospc@reddit
You didn't pay attention in school!
mailywhale@reddit
No I didn’t, that’s why I can properly use commas in formal writing!
ComprehensiveFee8404@reddit
Yeah those sentences are incorrect and the commas should be semi-colons. I think people just don't know that they're wrong.
VastOpinion6020@reddit
These are incorrect in British English and I have no idea how they ended up on the government website.
hhfugrr3@reddit
Tbh I've always thought that as long as the writing conveys its meaning effectively then it's all good.
Long-Wash7180@reddit
You seem to think that anything gov.uk / nhs.uk is actually written by a trained editor as you call them. The reality is it's just whoever's doing that piece of work at the time.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
You’re right that writers generally do as they please.
But they have a style guide that they (should have) read, and subeditors will give a final quality check to make sure the style guide is adhered to.
Gov.uk has an extensive style guide, for example. Someone else has kindly linked to it above.
Nkhotak@reddit
I was one of those ‘sub-editors’. The quality check is to ensure the content is accessible, inclusive and consistent. It’s not about sticking rigidly to grammatical rules that make no difference to comprehension.
The style guide advises against semi-colons because sentences with multiple clauses can be hard to follow. Your examples above should be broken down into two separate sentences. Using semi-colons might make it grammatically correct, but that’s not what gov.uk publishers care about.
noodlyman@reddit
The answer is poor education, or people not paying attention in school, perhaps coupled with not reading books as a child which would teach them by osmosis.
Management has the same problem, and so nobody cares about gratingly poor grammar.
LeonsFloppyHair@reddit
You mean... sentences? I know Americans hage a problem with reading but come on!
ZEAndrewHD@reddit
It's just English, not "British English". The variety of a language is the version that is named after where it is from, e.g. American English; Canadian English; Australian English, etc.
HighAbilityLoser@reddit
I think it's to do with not having style guides. If there are no hard and fast punctuation rules, you're going to see style choices you disagree with, where as in the US, MLA and APA say it has to be a semicolon, so a semicolon it has to be.
purrcthrowa@reddit
I hope not. There's nothing wrong with short sentences. Even verbless ones.
FSL09@reddit
Trained editors checking content on government websites? Not in my experience.
Stunning_Car9315@reddit
Not every single page on gov.uk is, but we have pretty much the most easy to read, accessible and intuitive government website system in the world.
The source code is copied by other governments around the world, and the same team that created gov.uk, including the writers (or content designers as they are called) are hired by other governments around the world.
FSL09@reddit
They are reviewed by people (not trained editors) to check they are accessible (terms used, sentence length). They are not checking that all grammar rules are followed.
gd4x@reddit
I use semicolons all the time. I took the time to learn their correct usage in school and never really looked back. It honestly saddens me how few people use them.
The examples above (certainly the first one) are perfect for comma -> semicolon replacement.
PipBin@reddit
Why are they not acceptable in your opinion? What is so wrong with them?
creamyTiramisu@reddit
OP, those examples are absolutely not standard in British government websites. There's a very set style guide for writing for gov.uk: www.gov.uk/guidance/style-guide/a-to-z
Where do those examples appear? You can often use the 'submit feedback' option on gov.uk sites to report errors like this.
Empty_Bell_1942@reddit
I think the modern, technical, short sentenced writing style is more of an American thing. Steven King, who's great, is a good example. Also a lot of folks, perhaps, wouldn't know when to use a semi-colon.
BlueLinnet@reddit
Also, a lot of folks wouldn't know when not to use a hyphen.
I often feel torn between using a hyphen and a semicolon!
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
As a former subeditor, I had it drilled in to me when to use a hyphen, en dash, or em dash!
Empty_Bell_1942@reddit
The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary has semi-colon, but the Concise Oxford Dictionary has semicolon. I suspect Brits would use a hypen more regularly than Americans. here's some examples:
JLAshbourne@reddit
Good example, the chain of overpriced convenience stores in the UK is the Co-op, never the Coop. A coop is where you keep chickens. The Co-op is where you buy a soggy Chicken Sandwich.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Re-cover vs recover is another good one.
Afinkawan@reddit
Semicolon for continuation of a thought, hyphen for an aside or additional thought.
Obviously, being the English language, there are almost as many times when the rule is completely wrong.
bopeepsheep@reddit
Stephen is great. Not sure about Steven..
Empty_Bell_1942@reddit
You are not incorrect.
smileystarfish@reddit
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/content-design/writing-for-gov-uk
There's a whole style guide for this sort of thing.
The tone of GOV.UK content is supposed to be plain English and conversational. There's mainstream content and specialist content, with the specialist content for a slightly more advanced reading age. The content designers aren't looking for it to conform perfectly to every single grammar rule in English.
ThatBurningDog@reddit
FWIW the NHS has their own style guide. The one for NHS England is here: https://digital.nhs.uk/about-nhs-digital/corporate-information-and-documents/our-style-guidelines/content-style-guide
SpiritedAd5993@reddit
I use semi-colons all the time; they’re essential! ;)
Odd-Swing-2025@reddit
Charles Dickens loved run on sentences, ergo there's no fucking issue with them.
😄
smellthecoffeebeans@reddit
I am an editor. I moved here from another English speaking country. I have noticed this.
^(It bothers me.)
ten_ton_tardigrade@reddit
Comma splice! Yes, it’s a plague. I worked in the editorial field and did a lot of subbing over many years here in the UK. I lost count of the number of conversations I had explaining (to professionals) why this is not syntactically coherent. Seems basic but a lot of people don’t realise. Some do but choose to do it anyway for stylistic reasons.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
Same here. I also encountered my fair share — as well as of garden path sentences.
ten_ton_tardigrade@reddit
I’m sure you also fought your way through a thicket of dangling modifiers.
Darth_Zander@reddit
It’s a combination of poor punctuation and British English being more accepting of longer sentences than US English. The examples should be broken into shorter sentences separated by a full stop.
blither86@reddit
Yet Cormack McCarthy is an American. Nothing quite like a half page sentence to try and get your head around!
JLAshbourne@reddit
He was quite jazzy with it. He switched it up. There’ll be a page of three word sentences. Then he’ll write a whole page without any punctuation and you’ll have to figure it out if you want to work out what’s happening and as he seems to be going for an oral storytelling style the only way will be to read it aloud. And of course he will never use quotation marks for dialogue.
kbkvvuknklnni8888@reddit
It's a conversational tone. People often tend to speak in run-on sentences, it isn't a cause for concern.
MimiKal@reddit
People speak dashes and semicolons in these places, not commas.
Desperate-Rope5067@reddit
Writer's choice
cosmic_monsters_inc@reddit
That's just using a comma.
onionsareawful@reddit
yes, it's using one incorrectly
ResplendentBear@reddit
One of the first rules of good, simple writing is to use short sentences. I suspect this is people using longer sentences because they think it makes them look clever, or because they can't write well. Or because Chat GPT wrote it.
onionsareawful@reddit
ChatGPT wouldn't introduce a comma splice.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
I actually do think it’s people thinking longer sentences sound more intelligent, now you mention it.
whatanabsolutefrog@reddit
I do know people irl who use excessively long sentences to try and sound clever, but I don't think that's what's going on with UK government websites specifically.
IIRC the NHS has actually shifted to deliberately using more colloquial language in recent years because it's more accessible to people with low literacy, non-native speakers etc. It's also why gov websites tend to have simple formatting with a lot of white space.
Acessibility is the main goal with all this kind of mass government communication. "Sounding intelligent" is literally the least of their concerns.
No-Ladder306@reddit
The best writing has a variety of short and long sentences, and they are long enough to make a complete point.
ChangingMonkfish@reddit
Most public sector organisations nowadays do indeed have style guides that lean towards a more “conversational”, colloquial style.
SeoulGalmegi@reddit
Why are they? Just because they are.
I'm not sure if there's a much deeper answer. It's just how people speak/write.
KhaelonVoss@reddit
I would call them comma splices. Anyone can write anything they like: English is ultimately shaped by its speakers rather than by a central authority. No Académie Française here!
Traditionally, comma splices are regarded as errors in all major varieties of English, although attitudes differ. American English generally judges them more harshly, particularly in formal writing. British institutional writing is somewhat more tolerant of mild comma splices, especially where they help maintain a conversational flow.
In practice, writers sometimes use them deliberately for rhythm, tone, or readability, though in careful edited prose a full stop, semicolon, or conjunction would usually be preferred.
Of course, adding a conjunction such as “and” will normally satisfy even fairly strict style conventions.
DrunkenBandit1@reddit
Those are compound sentences, not run ons.
Key_Milk_9222@reddit
Your examples are perfectly acceptable English. Maybe you learnt a dialect that has different rules, but in English you're allowed to use commas.
Icy_Mixture1482@reddit (OP)
https://libguides.hull.ac.uk/grammar/commasplices
It’s basically a sentence where two (or more) independent clauses are connected only by a comma.
They’re not always bad. “I came, I saw, I conquered” is a famous quote that is a comma splice.
But in most cases, they create an impression of rushed, unprofessional writing. To improve readability, it’s normal to use a conjunction, full stops, or a semicolon.
Key_Milk_9222@reddit
That is a very ironic response.
Michelle20212@reddit
Just lazy. British people haven’t been taught grammar in school since the 1970s, so most people under 60 can’t write good English. That includes the civil service and public sector.
MeltingChocolateAhh@reddit
It's just how we roll
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