How much influence on the price/availability of RAM is due to military drones?
Posted by Ray_Dillinger@reddit | LocalLLaMA | View on Reddit | 18 comments
Warning: Speculation. Summary: Current hardware prices may be due to military demand we can't see.
I know we've been thinking of big companies building massive datacenters. But another thought has occurred to me. Military drones with AI capabilities have been "on the rise" for the last two or three years, and every time one of them dives it takes a few gigabytes of RAM and at least a couple of NPU or GPU chips with it. Increasingly popular "autonomous" drones take even more because they do their own target tracking, visual navigation, and "mission completion" when the link to the operator is cut, or when GPS is jammed, etc.
Defense planners around the world have been watching the development of drone warfare and having a collective pants-crapping moment. In every country, they are realizing that they are not prepared to deal with this new threat at all. They are rushing and scrambling to have a million military drones of their own ready to use. They need a whole new generation of air defense radars and anti-aircraft guns and new classes of missiles and other hardware. They are facing a critical need to train and test and integrate the AI capabilities of this new hardware. They are feverishly speculating about what they will need to "maintain parity" with future developments, and trying to lock in long-term contracts with suppliers of crucial hardware such as RAM and NPU chips.
What kind of orders for fast RAM and AI processors must they be placing? What kind of demands or commitments to future sales must they be making? And what kind of budget is being tapped to pay for it all?
Whatever it is, we civilians are never going to see those orders. All that hardware is disappearing into military shops we never hear about and paid for out of budgets that are never disclosed.
I chased it for a little bit, and found a few vendors of military drone controllers. They seem to be divided into "Autopilots" and "Mission computers" roughly corresponding to "navigation and flight" and "everything else."
But the webpages and brochures really don't say very much about how much and what kind of hardware is getting blown to smithereens every time one of these drones is used. And of course they say nothing at all about how many such controllers are being sold to nations not currently at war but who are frantically developing drone and anti-drone capabilities for their own military.
The most specific information I got was about one "mission computer" that has at least a dozen "NPU matrix processors" each with 256M to 2G of RAM. I don't know from the brochure what kind of processing units those "NPU matrix processors" are. But it seems likely that they are the same GPU or NPU chips that AI developers are competing for. And a load of three to to twenty-four gigabytes of RAM per unit adds up. There are thousands of drones flying across the Russo-Ukrainian border and into oblivion each night. How many carry this class of hardware?
As far as I can tell the general idea behind these designs is that they tend to run a lot of "small" AI models simultaneously for particular subtasks. Many are just a quarter-gigabyte or less. These specialized small models can be run very fast and are fairly reliable, where a larger "whole mission" AI model would have much slower reflexes. So there's one that just does visual navigation, another that just does visual target tracking, another that tracks tactical threats such as other drones or ground-based installation, etc.
In an "autopilot" system I looked at, there's apparently one specialized subsystem whose "smarts" are wholly devoted to handling the challenges of skimming 7 meters above ocean waves in variable and gusty winds at 650 kph. But the website's description here gives zero details about what kind of compute hardware that entails.
So I am thinking that the current availability/price crisis facing pretty much everybody in the world who wants RAM right now, may be partially the result of a massive spike in demand caused by nations building military drones, largely unseen by civilians.
unjustifiably_angry@reddit
zero
Annual_Award1260@reddit
I assume they aren’t running consumer ram chips. Probably some over priced radiation hardened version. Most are probably just a few gb to store image models. They definitely are not running llms for targeting lol
Fast-Satisfaction482@reddit
Nah, it's raspberries and jetsons all the way.
llama-impersonator@reddit
no, the point of drones is to be cheap, they are not going to use satellite grade rad hardened chips
Annual_Award1260@reddit
I well the cheap ones are just fiber link and basic flight controller.
A MQ-9 Reaper drone costs $30 million
jtjstock@reddit
Not to mention the scale of military production is absolutely dwarfed by the consumer market, let alone the data centers
05032-MendicantBias@reddit
Next to none. Military drones use a tiny amount of RAM.
A drone board might get away with 128MB.
A Vera Rubin uses 1.5TB.
LtDrogo@reddit
While I truly admire the imaginative powers of the OP, this has no relation whatsoever to reality.
temperature_5@reddit
Good point, some days over 2000 drones are destroyed. Assuming even small dedicated SBCs and image recognition NPUs that's probably still 8000-16000 GB destroyed per day. Plus whatever stockpiles are being built up...
Annual_Award1260@reddit
Its mostly fpgas for military
Top-Rub-4670@reddit
Is this a good point, though? FIVE MILLIONS smartphones are sold every day in this world. Not just some days either, it's every day. That's probably 20,000,000 - 80,000,000GB taken off the market every day.
temperature_5@reddit
touche!
Massive-Question-550@reddit
extremely doubtful. even a single retail pc user uses more ram and cpu allocation than a dozen of these drones. compared to retail and especially datacenter use this wouldn't even equal the retail consumer needs of a third world country. just a single data center rack can have over a terabyte of ram and much of it is hbm memory which uses up a lot more silicon than regular DDR5. governments would each need to be building and destroying tens of thousands of drones a month to even register as demand.
Nice_Cellist_7595@reddit
Total conspiracy. Do the math. Check the number of people projected to use AI vs. KV Cache size. The allocation per person is not small and in aggregate is quite large.
Miserable-Dare5090@reddit
I mean, that and the 3-4 companies buying the stock?
Miriel_z@reddit
OP is onto something, and it does not sound like a conspiracy. Just don't get disappeared.
jtjstock@reddit
Nope.
Ok-Measurement-1575@reddit
I'm certain this is the reason claude went shit and won't even return to it's former glory until ww3 ends which is obviously never.