What is up with Honda and their obsession with fwd cars?
Posted by smallcarbro@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 112 comments
Like even their truck and suvs are fwd based. The few times that they have decided to make rwd car (NSX,S2000) were great.
Advanced-Elk-7581@reddit
They are more efficient and do well in the snow. AWD is marginally better in some conditions.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
I would never buy a Ridgeline over an F150. It is not that fuel efficient.
Advanced-Elk-7581@reddit
tf are you talking about.
omg4serious@reddit
i mean, most manufacturers make FWD cars. because it's cheap, it's reliable, it's predictable when driving.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Most performance cars and trucks are rwd based. Even Toyota and Nissan makes their performance Lexus and Infiniti cars rwd.
Kitchen-Tax7151@reddit
And exactly which car in acuras lineup is a performance car?
Imaginary-Thing-7159@reddit
99 integra
Kitchen-Tax7151@reddit
Oh, we're playing the "i can pick whatever model and year i want to prove my point" now prove why you'd compare an integra to a corvette
RideShinyAndChrome@reddit
The integra is 100% a sports coupe, and its nowhere near the price range (when new, now it's stupid prices but thats because honda fans are dumb) of the corvette. It is designed to prioritise fun driving feel and cornering performance over practicality. Its a cheap tuber platform for a twisties/track car. Americans have this weird obsession with hp and corvettes and its a bit embarrassing
Sensitive-Kiwi3207@reddit
The purple 4-door one, right?
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Acura NSX, Integra Type S, etc.
SailingSpark@reddit
The NSX was mid engined. It was a FWD drivetrain put in the middle of a car. Honda's only reall performance front engine rwd car was the S2000.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
I didn't know that. I wonder how the transmissions in the automatic NSX holds up to the abuse. The current one appears to have a more longitudinal design.
Sketch2029@reddit
It was probably not the same transmission they used in other Hondas available at the time since it was making double the horsepower of the next closest car.
The new NSX is longitudinal and uses a dual clutch transmission.
Kitchen-Tax7151@reddit
The nsx is the only true performance car, the others are closer to sports cars.
2fast2nick@reddit
When has an Integra been RWD?
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Not sure what you are asking?
gotcha640@reddit
Lexus and Infinity aren’t performance brands. They’ve made some halo cars (LFA) but they’re primarily luxury brands.
EchoesFromWithin@reddit
Neither of the rwd Toyota sports cars are actually Toyotas. One is a Subaru and the other is a BMW.
EuroCanadian2@reddit
Yes, but performance models sell in smaller volumes than regular models, and always have.
Total-Improvement535@reddit
two cars you mentioned are decidated performance cars
AdjustDeezNutz@reddit
I used to be heavily against fwd back when I was a kid. Then I had a ride along in a dc2 itr in the mountains and changed my mind. Now I think the most important thing is balance and driving feel.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Honda has definitely has the fwd science thing down. Also the fact that they can make fwd manuals with linkages feel so nice is an enigma. But I figure it would just be easier and cheaper for them to make a rwd car for certain things then to try to force a fwd design to work.
AdjustDeezNutz@reddit
99% of drivers don't really care about drive line layout nor turn off their traction control. Even performance cars like the s2000 and the nsx were loss leaders so it wouldn't make financial sense for a conservative company like Honda. Just look at their history in f1 they keep pulling out just when they're about to reach greatness.
BFCE@reddit
Honda has always been about fwd. They popularized it. Their first car in the US was FWD in 1967 - keep in mind most cars were rwd up until the mid to late 1980s. They pioneered it, they perfected it, it's always been something they're very good at. They went out of their way to prove FWD.
Now if you were looking for a technical answer, these are the main benefits to fwd:
More compact packaging (good for small cars)
Lighter weight (good for everything)
Less parasitic horsepower loss
Better fuel economy
Better traction on loose surfaces
Better stability
Cheaper to manufacture (more expensive R&D, though)
And until cars started to have >250hp, there were essentially no drawbacks, and in fact due to the lower parasitic draw and ligher weight, a fwd car was likely to be faster than a rwd of the same power level. The only real fwd disadvantage that cannot be engineered away is that when accelerating hard, weight shifts off the powered wheels. It wasn't an issue when 200hp was considered a lot. Nowadays though, even with all the fancy tricks cars like the FL5 Type R have, there's just no way to put down power the way a rwd can. Still, it remains the ideal setup for cars with less than 300hp, imo
SailingSpark@reddit
Actually, Honda did not pioneer it. The first modern fwd car was the fiat 128. It was the first with a transverse engine inline with the transmission. The mini had the trans under the engine.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
They helped pioneer automatic fwds. The fiat was prob a manual. The mini had an automatic but I believe it was kind of weird.
SailingSpark@reddit
[t was definitely a manual. A little 1.1 liter engine making 55hp is not something you want to bolt to an automatic, especially in the late 1960s.
NoEmu5969@reddit
Saab, Sunbeam, Oldsmobile, GMC, Hillman, Fiat don’t exist?
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Saabs were fwd but were manual transmissions. Oldsmobile had the first fwd automatic but was wildly impractical in most cases because it prob needed a huge engine.
Sketch2029@reddit
Honda did not invent front wheel drive, it had been around since the 1800s. But otherwise this is a good summary. This is also the only comment I've seen to mention parasitic drivetrain loss and fuel economy, which is rather important today.
As I see it, Honda has always been about doing more with less. FWD and a smaller engine gives them an efficiency advantage. They don't build overpowered cars (with the possible exception of the new NSX). They build them with just enough power for their intended purpose. Even if you look at the old NSX, it had a V6 making as much power as most contemporary high output V8s of the time, and being a transverse layout it put more of that power to the ground.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
The parasitic loss thing is definitely interesting. Honda had to make do with small engines from the getgo and therefore had to use a more efficient design. I believe they did pioneered fwd automatics whereas most cars at the time were fwd but manuals.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
You are correct. Fwd was fine below 250hp. Then cars started getting heavier and more powerful. I believe the Toronado was the first fwd from GM. It was kind of a quirky design. They basically took their rwd automatic design and folded it in half.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
My guess is they copied Lancia who were all about fwd.
Total-Improvement535@reddit
FWD is easier to package and better in the snow than RWD. If all of your cars are FWD, you can have a lot of part interchangeability, meaning higher profits and less costs.
RWD is pretty much only superior in terms for performance in this day and age.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
FWD is not better in the snow, now when climbing, not when the bases for an AWD system, and not in a SUV.
Sketch2029@reddit
They said better than RWD, not better than AWD.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
"Like even their truck and suvs are fwd based"
Sketch2029@reddit
Yes, which is absolutely fine for most people.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
woosh
Total-Improvement535@reddit
FWD is definitely better in the snow. This has been tested and proven several times.
More weight over the driven wheels = increase in traction
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
It depends on the vehicle, and usually not when climbing as it transfers weight rearward.
Total-Improvement535@reddit
I do see your point and I think having the weight of the engine would outweigh the center of gravity shift.
unless it’s a super steep incline, I don’t think it’s gonna put several hundred pounds that far back over the rear wheels
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Depends a lot on the vehicle, an SUV for example already has more weight on the back, more so when there's cargo in the back, and they have a higher center of mass so more weight shift.
ktappe@reddit
That’s not the reason. The reason is that when you try to push a car in the snow, the rear end will fishtail. Front wheel drive pulls the car and keeps it straight.
HatDangerous3409@reddit
Damn dude, learn to read.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Ohhh, what did I misread?
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
It is good for reliability too. There is a reason why Honda automatics were burning up clutch packs not too long ago.
1995LexusLS400@reddit
What wheels are driven makes absolutely no difference for reliability. There are plenty of FWD automatic cars that are far more reliable than any RWD car fitted with a Northstar engine.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
As I said it depends on the weight and power and design. Cvts are great for golf carts.
1995LexusLS400@reddit
FWD CVT Priuses have been proven to reliably do 500K+ miles with basic maintenance.
RWD manual Rovers have proven to shit the bed long before 100K miles.
What wheel drive a car is has no bearing on reliability.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Prius CVTs are hybrids and doesn't use a belt. They use planetary gearsets. Horrible marketing decision by Toyota to call it a cvt.
gotcha640@reddit
ZF has been the world leader in transmissions since literally, in the actual original dictionary sense of the word, LITERALLY since Zeppelin.
Is your lobster too buttery, Terry?
pooo_pourri@reddit
I mean RWD is probably worse than FWD for reliability. Theres just more shit to wrong on a RWD system and there’s more rotating mass which isn’t great for wear and tear. Also you sure this issue with clutch packs is because fwd cars naturally burn up clutches or just because Honda made a shitty product? Because I’ve had loads of FWD cars and never had issues with clutches going bad.
Sketch2029@reddit
When Honda first introduced V6s their automatics didn't handle the power well and there were a lot of failures.
I don't think that's been an issue for at least 15 years.
Half-Cocked-Mexican@reddit
I'm currently putting my well abused supercharged Cobalt back together, which was built 20 years ago. Aside from a worn reverse synchro, the tranny looks rock solid inside!
gotcha640@reddit
Are you here to discuss the various pros and cons, or is this a “rwd is better for everything, C8 isn’t a corvette, fight me” post?
That second one is getting pretty tiring.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
No I am wondering why stuff like the Honda Ridgeline are fwd? Most manufacturers don't do shit like that. Lol. Fwd is fine for the civic and the CRV. When you step up to heavy or high powered cars like the Passport, Odyssey, etc things get dicey.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Ford did it with the Maverick, Ford and everyone who bought one should be embarrassed over that.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
The maverick is different tho and obvious. I actually like it.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
How is it different?
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Well I see those as more of a hatchback and not really a truck cause it is small. It is based on the Focus. It serves a purpose for those who dont want a pickup truck that gets 20mpg but needs to haul bicycles for example.
I think it makes smaller pickups like the Tacoma kinda obsolete. If you want to tow you can get a full sized pickup. For offroading you got the 4runner.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
The best vehicle for that kind of thing ever made sold like shit. The GMC Envoy XUV.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Wow didnt even know those existed. Lol. Kinda like an Avalanche.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
But better because of the sliding roof.
If someone made something with that functionality with like an Excursion, I'd pay out the ass for that.
I sort of have something like that, I have a Ford C-350 Centurion Four Door Bronco. So I can take the top off, but I don't have a mid-gate, I want to make that modification but haven't yet.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Nice. I dont know if I would mod that tho. Looks like they hold their value.
gotcha640@reddit
So your argument isn’t technical, or functional, it’s just Honda, and possibly Hyundai you aren’t a fan of.
Innnnnteresting….
agingcausescancer@reddit
The Honda Ridgeline isn’t a traditional truck. All the other cars with beds in the same category are front wheel drive. And I say this as a Ford Maverick owner.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
What is there besides the Ridgeline and Maverick?
agingcausescancer@reddit
Hyundai Santa Cruz
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Ewwww, never seen one of those, now I regret asking.
gotcha640@reddit
How specifically do things get dicey?
AbruptMango@reddit
You know, when you're using performance.
agingcausescancer@reddit
The Honda Ridgeline isn’t a performance vehicle and is AWD.
01WS6@reddit
Because its basically a Honda Pilot with a truck bed. Honda saves significant costs by using an already existing platform like the Pilot, rather than making a one off unique platform for just the Ridgeline. They probably assume they wont make their money back if they have to create a new body on frame vehicle for the truck market.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
I mean Toyota can make a Ridgeline too but they were prob like fuck that. Lol.
Fuzzy-Instruction@reddit
Because they've been making BoF trucks for basically their entire history in the United States. Honda would have to invest in developing a BoF platform, find suppliers, outfit factories, market it, etc. etc. etc. It's a hugely expensive and massively time-consuming undertaking to develop a platform from scratch, and there's no guarantee it would result in sales.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Honda did have a bof Honda Passport 20 years ago. But they stopped making them for like 20 years then came out with the current fwd design. Prob going to be the next thing that blows up in value on fb marketplace.
Fuzzy-Instruction@reddit
That was an Isuzu. It wasn't built by Honda.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Oh yea.
Fuzzy-Instruction@reddit
How do things get dicey? FWD is always going to be more stable and predictable in terms of handling, and there's no reason for any of the vehicles you mentioned to be RWD. Also, the Odyssey, Ridgeline, and Passport all have less horsepower than the Civic Type R, which is FWD.
jrileyy229@reddit
Don't worry, when the c7 came out the boomers all said it wasn't a Corvette..... It was too angular and European looking and no round tail lights.
RoosterBurger@reddit
Efficiency of a front wheel drive train and Hondas audience is the every man - so FWD less likely to get the average Joe/Jane into trouble.
Small cars are possible with FWD as no transmission tunnel.
Do something and do it well I guess
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Doesn't matter when they aren't small and they put in a big center console.
RoosterBurger@reddit
Was meaning more the rear passengers don’t get a transmission tunnel.
FIT, Stream, EDIX all have flat rear passengers wells for the food down aspect
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
No car has a transmission tunnel for the rear passengers, the transmission ends forward of the rear floor. What they do have is a small tunnel for the exhaust and/or a drive shaft.
The Fit absolutely has such a tunnel. pic Didn't bother looking at your other claimed examples.
RoosterBurger@reddit
I’m not so sure about that?
https://www.benzworld.org/attachments/20170615_123303-jpg.2192002/
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
They just seem kinda stubborn with their design of the Ridgeline, Passport, Acura TL. There was huge time gap of almost 20 years between them releasing their old rwd based Honda Passport and then the more modern fwd Passport.
Impressive-Crab2251@reddit
The old Honda passport was actually a rebadged isuzu rodeo not a Honda design.
SailingSpark@reddit
Should we tell him about the time Honda rebadged a land rover?
Impressive-Crab2251@reddit
That's crazy, I did not know that.
SailingSpark@reddit
Yes, the Honda Crossroad was a rebadged Land Rover Discovery 1.
gregsw2000@reddit
Because they're better in almost every way and Honda likes selling cars
Conscious_Dog3101@reddit
Hondas’ sales figures speak for themselves. Besides Honda is balls deep in other things like lawn mowers, motorcycles, dirt bikes/mopeds. Even robots and airplanes. I think theyre probably ok
SailingSpark@reddit
Fwd is more efficient. Power to the wheels never has to turn 90 degrees through bevel gears, the rotating parts are smaller and lighter, and Fwd can be packaged smaller, eliminating a drivetrain hump in the middle of the car and allowing fir a larger trunk area.
Honda has also done a great job of making their fwd cars handle well.
lucidexium@reddit
FWD is simple to make and all the average driver needs so Honda has traditionally focused on it. Really not much more to it than that.
Nervous_Hurry_9920@reddit
They do what they do and they do it pretty well.
If you want something else, maybe they aren't for you.
This question is similar to what's Audis obsession with AWD? It's what they do.
Certain-Sock-7680@reddit
I mean, pretty much all car manufacturers favor FWD designs for obvious reasons, why single out Honda?
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Because Honda doesn't have any rwd options at all. Toyota has the Tacoma, Tundra, and several other Lexus vehicles.
avantgarden1990@reddit
The new integra type s should’ve been RWD. Almost a perfect car.
smallcarbro@reddit (OP)
Yea, I agree. At least it is a manual and Honda is very good at making well handling fwd cars.
KeekuBrigabroo@reddit
Huge imbalance in the market demand. They're only going to mass produce whatever mass l-sells.
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
Packaging/there are a lot of people that want something reliable and don't have to deal with extreme weather. An SUV to take the kids to school or a Ridgeline to make runs to the hardware store to get a few things doesn't need anything beyond that
EuroCanadian2@reddit
It is more efficient use of space, it is cheaper to manufacture, it does a better job of what most car buyers want (predictable and reliable transport).
TheBobInSonoma@reddit
FWD started becoming a thing in the US when efficiency became important in the 1970s. You get more interior and trunk space with the same exterior size.
RampDog1@reddit
The youngest in the family always got stuck with the hump in the middle.🤔
uwpxwpal@reddit
Honda doesn't want to take a huge risk on developing a new platform if it doesn't have to. It's far easier and cheaper to just adapt an existing platform and add all wheel drive.
revocer@reddit
FWD is the most cost effective and easier to package way to build cars, and more profitable. That's why they primarily build FWD.
VegaGT-VZ@reddit
Lexus and Infiniti tried RWD, actually made German beaters, got jack shit for it.
If you think internet/enthusiast respect matters, thats your choice I guess.
PresentIron5379@reddit
Because Hondas philosophy has always been do more with less.
bigcee42@reddit
Most companies make FWD because they are cheap to make, give you more interior space (no need for drivetrain parts going down the middle), and are adequate for daily use.
withsexyresults@reddit
It’s cheap and you get a bunch of interior space for the passengers