Can we talk headlights? (Not brightness)
Posted by Zdravstvuj@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 77 comments
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like most cars made in the last few years don’t allow for replacement bulbs to be swapped in. If your headlight goes out, you now have to spend thousands ($1,000’s)!!! Just to get headlights back in your car. I know of several cars that don’t allow bulb replacements.
When did this become acceptable?? Didn’t we used to have HID and LED projectors housings that would still allow you to swap in replacement bulbs? How is this the new norm? We are going backwards in the car industry and I feel like the general public is blissfully unaware. As more people get newer cars they are going to be furious when they get these repair bills.
TopRun3942@reddit
In the US there is a specific reason why the LED headlamps have non-replaceable bulbs and it has to do with the regulations that govern headlamps at the federal level.
For those that area not aware, headlamps are required safety equipment on motor vehicles and their performance requirements are regulated by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). The particular standard for headlamp regulation is called FMVSS 108. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-49/subtitle-B/chapter-V/part-571/subpart-B/section-571.108
In that standard, there are a few ways that headlamps can be designed by the manufacturers that meet the requirements. The first way is what most people are familiar with, which is designing the lamps to have a replaceable bulb. If you choose to use that design, you have to use a type of bulb that is approved and documented with the NHTSA so that replacement parts can be made to the exact specification of the type of bulb that was originally designed with. That is the case for most halogen and HID type headlamps.
For LEDs, they are designed to a different part of the specification that allows for any type of light source (does not have to be approved and documented with NHTSA) as long as the light source is integral to the lamp assembly and explicitly can not be made to be replaceable. It's called an integral beam assembly in the regulations.
So because the manufacturers are designing to this part of the specification in order to use LEDs, they have to make it so that the LEDs themselves are not able to be replaced by the end user in order to comply with the regulations.
Whether that's a good choice or not, is a separate question, but any OEM headlight in the US that uses LEDs as the light source will by regulation not have any replaceable light sources in the lamp.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
LED lights should last 10-15 years under normal driving conditions.
It’ll suck for the eventual third or fourth owner but it’s not something the first owner is ever likely to have to deal with.
twelfthfantasy@reddit
Some people keep their cars that long, you know.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
Yes but it’s rare.
twelfthfantasy@reddit
It's really not. The average time a new car stays with its first owner in the US is 8ish years. Then you have to consider the many, many people who can never afford new cars. They should have to total their vehicle over a dead headlight?
"A bare majority of well off car owners will never have to deal with this problem if the device behaves as expected, so fuck everyone else," is a hell of a take.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
Car manufacturers aren’t in the business of making maintenance cheap for second and subsequent owners.
They put the features in that drive the sales for the people who buy them new.
twelfthfantasy@reddit
Which is a great example of why capitalism needs to be regulated. Also worth pointing out, as others already have, that LED headlights regularly fail to meet expected lifespans, because circuitry components go bad long before the actual diodes do. If I were in the market for a new car, which I probably never will be again because I can't stand half the features that are now standard, I would strongly prefer not to have integrated LED headlights.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
I personally love the LED lights. I’m not going to keep a car past the warranty period so it’s not an issue for me, and if they somehow fail during the warranty period they’ll be replaced at no cost to me.
Technological progress shouldn’t be regulated.
espressocycle@reddit
Good for you being wealthy enough that can buy a new car every five years or don't mind throwing your hard earned money at greedy carmakers. If a 2000 Camry can go 20 years and 200,000 miles without a $1,000 repair, all cars should do the same.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
That’s some major hyperbole.
In 200,000 miles those will need two timing belt and water pump replacements for at least $1,000 each including labor.
But yes, if all cars were made as simply as a 2000 Camry they’d likely be more reliable and cheaper to own.
The obvious downside is that we’d be missing a ton of features that have come out since then.
I like my adaptive suspension, 360° camera, adaptive crisis control, automatic lane-keeping, air conditioned seats, apple CarPlay on a big screen, rear view camera mirror, and yes LED headlights etc.
I’d rather pay more for something I enjoy than pay less for something I have to put up with.
espressocycle@reddit
The average car in the US is 14 years old.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
Yes but not on the first owner.
FatherIncoming@reddit
So because it's not the original owners problem, thats ok? I guess fuck affordable repairs then huh might aswell say fuck right to repair while you're at it too. What a dingus reply.
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
Car manufacturers are in the business of building vehicles to appeal to those who buy them new.
LED headlights and tall lights have some big benefits. Replacing bulbs is a thing of the past, they’re brighter and provide more even coverage on the road, they can be fit into smaller packages opening up new design options, and they look cool.
Air suspensions are more expensive to replace than coil springs, direct injection fuel pumps are more expensive to replace than port injection ones, carbon ceramic brake discs are more expensive to replace than ordinary metal, should automakers stop using those too?
ChuckoRuckus@reddit
Air suspensions are an entire system. It’s not like a bag goes out and it costs x100 more because it also includes the pump, module, and level sensor… like a LED headlight assembly.
Direct injection pumps are a 2nd pump and there’s still a supply pump in the tank that’s essentially a port injection pump. That comparison is more accurate to projector type housings that have expensive replaceable bulbs. And the expense depends on the vehicle, where often it’s compatible cost to an in tank pump.
Carbon ceramic discs are on expensive hi performance cars. They are also typically optional and cost minimum 5 figures. It’s not like it’s an even an option on a RAV4… yet for some reason, non-replaceable bulbs in headlight assemblies that cost 10% of the car are mandatory
Zdravstvuj@reddit (OP)
They should, but they usually don’t. Have seen a Benz, Tesla and f150 all with leds out needing replacement housing recently.
The other issue is that most cars force the headlights on all the time, or at least kick on very easily due to auto on. Will wear them out much quicker.
Fancy_Strawberry7137@reddit
Manufacturers aren’t responsible for end consumers doing something stupid. LEDs should outlast most vehicles they’re on, and if that’s concerning then don’t buy a car with LED headlights.
ScaryfatkidGT@reddit
This…
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
How old were those cars? Daytime running lights aren’t typically the same lights as the full headlights.
Zdravstvuj@reddit (OP)
Benz was a 2015 or 17 I believe. Third set of headlights so he spent over 2k per headlight so was in over $8,000 for headlights alone since owning the car, plus labor or time to replace them.
Most led cars I see on the road always have their leds on, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru. Even in broad daylight
MagnusAlbusPater@reddit
Yes, but they have different sets of LEDs. If the daytime running lights go out it’s not going to impede night driving it’ll just look a little wonky.
That sounds more like a faulty car than anything else if they needed three replacements in that period of time. The experience with most people is that they last the effective life of the vehicle.
Zdravstvuj@reddit (OP)
DRLs are different. Lots of cars drive around with headlights fully on burning up lifetime hours by default
superbotnik@reddit
Canadian Subarus default to “auto” and DRL come on when the parking brake is released, no other external lights on, otherwise headlights and marker lights come on. This is pretty poor. So when I start driving, I turn on marker lights (all sides of the car) and manually flip back to “auto” when it’s dark enough that headlights would illuminate things in front of the car.
It would be better if DRL did all sides of the car, but it was invented when people still used incandescent lighting (short bulb life).
Sad_Win_4105@reddit
I've seen almost new cars with burnt out LED headlights or taillights. While LEDs should last for many years, design is crucial. LEDs are highly susceptible to heat buildup so a poor design can lead to a very short life. Ditto for a factory with poor quality control.
capracan@reddit
Rav4 5thgeneration (2019 to 2025) has DRL and lights in the same housing. One of my DRL went out already.1,050 USD to replace it.
espressocycle@reddit
I'm keeping my 2006 Ford until it can no longer be repaired and then I'm gonna find another one. This shit is ridiculous. Cars should not need $1,000 repairs in the first 10 years of ownership.
CarbonInTheWind@reddit
We've owned 6 vehicles for more than 10 years each. The led housing replacement cost far exceeds just replacing bulbs for the same period of time.
espressocycle@reddit
Especially if you put in LED bulbs.
espressocycle@reddit
Regular housings last forever though.
04limited@reddit
I used to drive a Hino roll back it was optioned with LED w/ accent light package. The way the truck was set up the low beam/accent light was always on if the engine was on. It had 14k hours on the truck - both sides failed within months of each other.
Figure most people only use their cars like 500 hours a year and most driving is likely with the LBs off. Chances are the lights will last the life of the vehicle - minus LED accent lights. If it’s a common issue within a model I’m sure there will be aftermarket repair kits at some point.
NetFu@reddit
We have a Toyota 4Runner that's 7 years old, non-LED headlights, and we haven't had to replace one yet. It's driven every day, has daytime running lights, and the bulbs cost around $70.
Having owned LED bulbs in my home for around 25 years, my personal experience is the actual life of any LED bulb is far less than advertised. We've replaced bulbs more than 5 times in 25 years that should have lasted 10-15 years, easily.
I think having to replace an entire headlight assembly for a few thousand dollars instead of a bulb for $70 because it's using LED is a design fail nobody has admitted to yet:
https://www.cnet.com/home/smart-home/we-asked-experts-why-led-bulbs-die-out-so-fast/
But, then, I've never had one go out in a car, personally. Only my Teslas have had LED bulbs, and in 3 year leases, I've never seen them go out.
I think the problem is the assumption that older non-LED bulbs would always go out much faster than LED's, but modern bulbs are actually lasting longer. And LED bulbs aren't meeting promised expectations.
I mean, I was reading that higher end versions of the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla have LED bulbs and require replacement of the entire headlight assembly for up to $2k.
A $25k-$27k car has LED bulbs that cost $1500-2000 to replace??? These are the kinds of cars that many people actually keep for up to 20 years, especially with car prices today. That is ridiculous.
ShitMcClit@reddit
Its just more of the same planned obsolescence and putting tech where its not needed. You probably won't even be able to get the assemblies in 15 years.
anothercorgi@reddit
I guess it's going to be something else to consider when buying a used car with LEDs...
Surprisingly enough I have yet to replace incandescent headlamps with DRL feature on a car I've had for almost 30 years. I bought replacement bulbs soon after getting the car when they were on sale, and have yet to replace them.
quietguy47@reddit
I can replace the turn signal bulb in my Silverado but the headlight is a whole assembly that costs like $1600 to replace.
The_Real_NaCl@reddit
Except for maybe a few cases, factory LED headlights have always been full assemblies and didn’t have replaceable bulbs. They are a chipset on a circuit board with the diode shining onto a reflective surface, and the light then either goes out the headlight lens itself, or through a projector to control the light. Theoretically, they will last the life of the car because LED’s don’t use near as much power to give off their light compared to Xenon/HID and Halogen bulbs. So unless the car is wrecked or an outside force like water gets in and damages the assembly, there shouldn’t be any need to worry about any repair bills or maintenance.
espressocycle@reddit
Yeah but they could also just use regular old housings and just put LEDs in them. I did that five years ago and they still work great.
The_Real_NaCl@reddit
If it were that simple, then manufacturers would’ve already been doing it. Putting LED bulbs in a housing that isn’t made for them, like so many people do for some reason, does not yield the same result as factory LED headlight housings. I’d be willing to bet the people coming towards you with your lights don’t think they “work great”. No manner of adjusting will compensate for the glare with the different beam pattern of the LED bulbs.
jakubmi9@reddit
I mean... HIR2 bulbs in a halogen projector headlight assembly have a physical cutoff for the beam. I have tried LED retrofit bulbs for those, and they have passed the yearly vehicle inspection. Headlight alignment is checked both horizontally and vertically during the inspection, as well as brightness both under and above cut-off. No issues with either.
They're stil illegal unfortunately, but they work no worse than factory LED headlamps, arguably even better, since some cheaper trims come with LED reflector assemblies instead of projectors now.
The_Real_NaCl@reddit
Well that would make sense since HIR bulbs are halogens, and the projectors have a shield inside of them to provide the cutoff line.
The issue with putting aftermarket LED bulbs in halogen reflector/projector housings isn’t just due to the different bulb itself. The diodes cast the light differently compared to a halogen bulb, and don’t shine onto the same parts of the reflective surface as those. They also don’t sit in the same spot as where the filament would be on those, so now beam pattern will be different, and can cause the light to scatter off in places where it shouldn’t. 95% of the time, the factory headlights are going to still provide the best cutoff line, beam pattern, and minimal glare. There are exceptions since there are models from factory that do have excessive glare based on the headlight test that the IIHS does, but those are becoming much less common. FWIW, factory LED reflector housings are still going to be designed to have a cutoff line and shine the light down and out instead of up and out. They’re not designed the same way as Halogen/HID reflector housings.
ObviousAlias7@reddit
This is where having some wrenching ability does come in handy still.
Damaged an LED headlight on one of my vehicles. Had a bird fly into me on the highway and cracked it. New one was $1500.
Hopped on ebay and plenty of auto parts wholesalers had them for sale for $200 or so. Bought one, swapped it in. Was plug and play, but had to pull the whole bumper off to do it. Again, not difficult just a lot of clips and hardware to locate and remove (and keep track of)
So $200 and about 3-4 hours of work in my driveway taking my time.
LV_Devotee@reddit
Even when you can just swap the bulb you have to disassemble the entire front end. On my 20 year old Audi I had to remove the entire bumper cover just to access the housing.
M-G@reddit
Go look at a 20 year old Volvo and prepare to have your mind blown. Open hood, pull out two metal slides, and the entire light housing is free.
ParryLimeade@reddit
This thread is shocking me. We have an 06 Corolla and 08 jeep… both have all lights easily replaced and I’ve done it multiple times over the years of owning them.
LV_Devotee@reddit
I also own a 25 year old Volvo
StuffIanWrote@reddit
This was one thing the 2012-18 Focus got right, too. Two big flathead screws (any coin will do in a pinch) and then the assembly is only tethered by the connectors.
Viking2151@reddit
Depends on the vehicle, some are way mor work than it should be, some you pop the hood and they are right there.
knight9665@reddit
thats cuz u have german engineers.
LV_Devotee@reddit
Worth it for the way it drives. Compared to German cars American or Japanese cars drive like the one shopping cart with a busted wheel.
knight9665@reddit
Because u compare like a bmws to a Hondas and not acuras or Lexus.
Like dont get me wrong I love my bmw. But it an equally high end Lexus and they drive just fine.
LV_Devotee@reddit
My Audi drives way better than any Lexus or Infiniti I have ever driven. My old 2012 Impala still drove better than any Lexus or Infiniti. And Acura actually drives worse than Toyota or Nissan.
Many-Pomegranate-33@reddit
On the teens Chevy Malibus and Caddys yes.
But the bulb itself was still cheap.
On lots of those you could cheat and access thru taking the clips off the side youre working on.
I will take replaceable bulbs over assemblies any day when bulbs are under 20$.
Informal_Ad4399@reddit
Highly vehicle dependant. Every vehicle I've had have been pretty easy to replace. You don't even have to remove anything. Tail lights were a different story but it was still usually 2 to 4 easy to get to screws or bolts.
Viking2151@reddit
Yeah my uncle was shopping for used trucks and come a crossed this Dodge Rebal he was interested in, but one of the headlight lenses were cracked but still worked and the dealer didn't want to change it as it still worked for the time being, he even priced it out, was like $600 for a OEM head light, So he went to a different lot and bought something else.
AwarenessGreat282@reddit
Because it hasn't really become an issue yet. They are literally lasting beyond the average ownership time. Mine only has halogen bulbs and I still have the stock ones in there after 15 years and 170K miles.
7ar5un@reddit
Im all for it, if it prevents people from puting in stupid bright aftermarket lights.
Side note, my tlx brake light went out. No bulbs there, only an led chip set. New tail light led array is over $300. Its the whole light assembly.
BRICH999@reddit
No car has ever come with interchangeable led bulb headlights to my knowledge. The idea is a LED has a lifespan of like 25,000 hours. That's much longer than the average car expectancy since most cars dont have headlights on all the time.
Bulbs were replaceable when they were incandescent or hid because those bulbs have an average lifespan of like 600-2000 hours.
The real issue to me is cost of repair, a "fender bender" that cracks headlights can surpass 10k in repairs quickly. When I worked at audi a single led headlamp with the two drivers was often over $4k in parts.
TableDowntown3082@reddit
Audi in particular seems to be absurd with their headlights. A bare LED assembly for a 12 year old A7 is about $4k. Ive seen them breaching $8-12k for some of the newer ones. Im not saying the matrix technology doesn't up the price, but on so many Audis, the headlamps themselves seem to make or break the car, going from a repair to a total loss.
BRICH999@reddit
You arent wrong, it's one of the things audi is a bit over the top with. Oleds, matrix headlights, animations etc. "Vorsprung durch techniq" as they say
InsaneGuyReggie@reddit
The LEDs have a lifetime of 25,000 hours. The drivers less so. Sometimes the solder joints are just bad quality.
espressocycle@reddit
You can replace standard halogen bulbs with LED though.
TarponTalker@reddit
Yep, or say a rock hits your headlight and the crack allows condensation to get inside m.
ScaryfatkidGT@reddit
Yeah…
2000’s Dodge taillights are a great example… LED’s… last forever? Accept they don’t and are $800 to replace…
There should be a law that they need to come with a lifetime warranty… some are quality and last the 50,000 hours the LED claims… others the boards fry or heat kills them etc and they are $1000’s to replace…
stainless5@reddit
There are standards under unece for replacement LED light sources, but I don't think anyone has used them yet.
FrankieTheAlchemist@reddit
Weirdly that’s how they used to be too. My 1976 Celica came with headlamps that required replacing in their entirety. There were only a few sizes and shapes you could buy so lots of cars had the same looking headlights
maldoricfcatr@reddit
My sister bought a 2012 Mazda 3 brand new. She never replaced a HID bulb. My 2017 Ford escape has Halogen bulbs I've replaced the low beam bulbs 3 times in the 4 years I owned it. Some HID are very reliable.
dmv1985@reddit
yeah, the new escalades cost upwards of $2,000 to replace if it where to be out of warranty
Argentius99@reddit
NOT GOING BACK: Because LED's aren't bulbs, really, it's a collection of LED's within an emitter housing, it's not really possible or desirable to replace individual diodes.
Honestly the good old days don't exist, yes some cars with old-school sealed-beam units were straightforward to replace, but for luxury cars like that it was often a job that required a lift and dropping the bumper or removing a wheel to access (ask me how i know lol)
Add that too, most xenon-type headlights were simply awful, failed even the most basic safety / illumination tests. HID's failed quickly and cost hundreds just for the bulb.
I live in the mega-rainy PNW and honestly haven't heard of factory LED's failing in any meaningful way where the lights weren't compromised either by physical damage, or by the electrical system in some other way messed with.
TBH see more issues with infotainment systems etc, which, true, didn't happen with regular old CD players, ha!
espressocycle@reddit
20 years ago every car had bulbs you could change in 10 minutes. You can replace them with LEDs and never have to change them again but if they ever do fail it will be $25 max. There's absolutely no reason to design sealed units that cost thousands and require dealer programming. If automakers are so confident they won't fail they should give you a 30-year warranty.
espressocycle@reddit
Everything about modern cars is making them impossible to repair. That's increasing insurance rates even for those of us that drive shit boxes. The average age of a car in the US is 14 years. That's probably the longest it'll ever be because cars built today will be mechanically totaled in 10 years if you can get parts for them at all.
M-G@reddit
You'll only spend that much of you go to the dealer. If your LED unit fails, you'll more than likely be buying a used one. There will probably also be aftermarket replacements available for many vehicles, and there will probably be people who will do component level repairs.
espressocycle@reddit
They generally require dealer programming and after 10 years the dealers stop offering that service, meaning the car has to be junked.
Zdravstvuj@reddit (OP)
Rock auto has a few I’ve seen at $1,500 which is per single unit and the cheapest available
DilapidatedPlum@reddit
Tbh some older cars with the bulbs you had to replace the housing unless you buy one with replaceable bulbs. They're cheap though. Less than $100 for the pair.
But yeah fuck those LED headlights and US code headlights. I always swap mine over to E-code.
EnlargedChonk@reddit
the general public is blissfully not having to replace headlights anymore. Sure a few go out early here or there, and some designs are worse than others about it but generally speaking the mean time before failure is not an issue. I personally know some projector LED vehicles 10+ years old still on original headlights, and I'm sure pretty much most similar equipped vehicles of similar age I see on the road are the same story. Yes it sucks when one goes out, it also sucks when other equipment like power steering pump goes out early. But sometimes that just happens. Whether replacing the bulbs regularly as a wear item or rarely as a repair is overall cheaper for the consumer I'm not entirely sure but it's likely not and that's "justified" by their superior efficiency and light output.
TarponTalker@reddit
On the bright side EPS adoption has all about eliminated power steering pumps. Or at least high pressure fluid operated pumps.
Tool_junkie_1972@reddit
LEDs are much more particular about bulb orientation in relation to the reflector design so they meet dot requirements. If you ever get a chance, read the insane FDOT requirements for headlights in car design. It’s insane.
NuclearHateLizard@reddit
Don't buy new cars, they're insane. Lots needs to change in the industry for it to make sense again