LOT Polish Airlines says Boeing hid 737 MAX safety concerns to sell jets
Posted by AceCombat9519@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 66 comments
Posted by AceCombat9519@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 66 comments
FlyJunior172@reddit
Ethiopian knew this before flight 302 went down…
BoringBob84@reddit
They certainly should have known. The emergency airworthiness directive was issued by the FAA to all 737-MAX operators several months before that crash and those pilots were not aware of it. Furthermore, the accident investigators (from the same government that owns the airline) omitted that fact from their report.
When factors that contribute to aviation disasters are not addressed, then they lie in wait to contribute to a disaster in the future. I will never fly on that airline until I am assured that they have fixed their operational deficiencies, as Boeing has fixed the design deficiencies in the aircraft.
FlyJunior172@reddit
They did know. And the pilots knew too. What they weren’t told was the “roller coaster” maneuver.
Ethiopian did everything right, including trying to drag information out of Boeing, but still weren’t given the tools to properly deal with the problem in flight.
https://youtu.be/DcB31RgeL50
Ethiopian is actually the *only* African airline I’m willing to fly on, specifically because of what I learned about their attention to operations in the above video. The rest of them are too corrupt (making many of them unsafe and EU Air Safety Listed), with the potential exception of Kenyan. But because I can’t use Ethiopian to fly to Cape Town or Dar es Salaam, I won’t actually use any African airline to get to Africa.
BoringBob84@reddit
They absolutely did not. The EAD was very specific in describing MCAS, how it might fail, and what to to about it (i.e., turn off the stabilizer trim actuator and leave it off, as every pilot is trained to do).
Those pilots did not turn off the malfunctioning stabilizer trim actuator until it was too late. And it was too late because no one was flying the aircraft. They left the throttles at takeoff thrust until the wings began to go transonic and the forces on the stabilizer were too great!
Boeing gets the blame for the flaws in the system, and rightly so. But the airline refused to accept responsibility for their egregious errors in communications and operations. Because of that, passengers on that airline remain at risk of another catastrophic incident.
FlyJunior172@reddit
They knew exactly what they were supposed to do up until Boeing did not tell them about the roller coaster maneuver. The fault occurred 10 seconds into the flight. At that point all pilots are trained to get that plane away from the ground. They focused on doing that by the time the plane was far enough away from the ground or would have been absent the MCAS issue MCAS had already moved the stabilizer so far they could not recover without the roller coaster.
Avoiding this accident would have either required the automatic stabilizer trim control to be turned off completely from the start of the flight, or it would have required a superhuman reaction because that close to the ground, you have to focus on getting the airplane away from the ground before you can deal with the stabilizer run away. They dealt with the stabilizer runaway properly, but because of how long had to elapse before they could address the runway, they could not recover it without the roller coaster maneuver that Boeing specifically did not tell them about.
They had the stabilizer runaway cut out within one minute. The problem is that was still enough time that they could not recover without a maneuver that they knew nothing about and Boeing did not tell anyone about. And the reason it took even that long to cut it out is because it took them that long to identify that it was an MCS runaway and not a normal runway, because the MCAS runway starts and stops and a normal runway doesn’t. And when we compare that flight with the lion air flight, it appears to be that you really do just need that much time to identify the MCAS runway because it is just different enough than a normal runway.
BoringBob84@reddit
I literally quoted the EAD for you. The airline received that EAD four months prior to the crash. Repeating your false claim doesn't make it true.
FlyJunior172@reddit
Watch the video.
BoringBob84@reddit
Does the video mention the formal EAD from the FAA?
Dr__-__Beeper@reddit
We know that.
At least some of the executives should be in jail for murder. Maybe all of them.
AceCombat9519@reddit (OP)
I wonder what love would be used for this remember Poland is in the European Union obviously you might need one for North America about this
sofixa11@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence
People designed a bad system (no redundant inputs) for a small thing. Othera redesigned the things around to make them pretty big (can crash the plane). Multiple of the designers, engineers, test pilots knew about this. The program manager knew about this. They all knowingly lied to the FAA about what the system is, how often it can fail, and what impact it can have when it does.
Boeing's CEO might not have known the specifics before the Lion Air crash (I'd argue it's still his responsibility, not criminally per se, but legally, that's why he gets the pay package he does), but he absolutely knew after it. And he continued going on TV and making announcements to investors and regulators which were factually wrong and trying to absolve Boeing of any blame. That's at the very least securities fraud, but to me, criminal negligence as well. He knew the details, he knew the risks, and still thought blaming the pilots is the best choice of action even if it could kill people.
And then after the grounding, the proposed Boeing "fix" was absurd and bonkers and would have killed more people if it were allowed. Boeing's CEO kept announcing the grounding will be lifted soon, which is some more securities fraud (it was false). By pure luck their proposed fix was found out to be not acceptable - a test pilot was sick so a friend was brought on, who discovered that it's impossible to apply the Boeing procedure in the time prescribed, which stalled the approval; then people thought about it for the first time and realised it's asburd, and the FAA mandated a full redesign of MCAS.
BoringBob84@reddit
That is a lie.
Source: USA DoJ
sofixa11@reddit
I find that hard to believe. Why did the FAA not do anything then? Why did they allow a system based on non redundant inputs that can crash the plane, and why did they allow it to not be documented? Are they also criminally negligible for failing to do half their job (aviation safety and promoting aviation are their mission statements). In the book Flying Blind and all the reporting I saw, the FAA did not know how critical MCAS had become, and were convinced to allow it remain undocumented and outside of the manuals because of that. I find that hard to square with the DoJ citation.
BoringBob84@reddit
Your logical fallacy is Personal Incredulity. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is false. The System Safety Analysis (SSA) was valid, and it was based on an assumption that had been valid since the first 737s in the 1960s: All pilots are trained to turn off a malfunctioning stabilizer trim actuator. Boeing even verified this with pilots in a flight simulator.
I recommend that you start with SAE ARP 4761 and learn about the SSA process before you attempt to lecture on the topic with any credibility.
sofixa11@reddit
Boeing test pilots testing a specific scenario they knew about, not remotely comparable to a random pilot getting startled. A training captain at a Southwest training center did it as a surprise to a few pilots and nobody managed to realise the cause of the problem quickly enough to cut off the stabilizer trim.
No it was not, or a full redesign wouldn't have been ordered. The fact that MCAS had the command authority to crash the plane in the ground is incompatible with it using a single input (which is known to fail at that), as well as it not being documented at all.
BoringBob84@reddit
Like I said, learn about the SSA process before trying to lecture on the topic. You obviously do not understand what you are pretending to know.
This BS about "a single input" is a red herring. When you get your "information" from sensational tabloids, then you should consider the source.
sofixa11@reddit
They used only one Angle of Attack vane to make decisions about if MCAS should intervene. When a system makes a decision based on the information from one sensor, you'd call that "single input".
Sure mate. Dismiss the sources I think I'm using (even though I literally cite a few of them up thread).
Boeing obviously didn't understand it either, or they wouldn't have killed 300 people, and as a result been ordered to redesign the system entirely to have redundant inputs.
I'm not sure what your claim is. That the safety process allows for a system with the command authority to crash a plane to not be documented anywhere in the manuals? Or that it's safe for such a system to use only a single (known to get blocked or otherwise fail) sensor? Or that Boeing didn't hide the details from the FAA and pilots? Or that the FAA knew about MCAS and what it could do, but they thought it doesn't merit documentation?
BoringBob84@reddit
Why don't you go on to some medical subs and lecture surgeons on how to do operations? You have no idea what you are talking about and I am not going to waste my time trying to educate someone who is willfully ignorant.
huyvanbin@reddit
Any links to this story about the test pilot being sick? I think I missed or forgot about it.
sofixa11@reddit
It's from the book Flying Blind.
Dr__-__Beeper@reddit
Chinese law.
Go straight to executing them.
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
China does this as political purges and ways to inspire fear. They are not actually fairly executing people who are criminally negligent. They just executed a big swathe of their air defence engineers and executives because it turns out America still has a better aerospace industry.
ScienceMechEng_Lover@reddit
That's good. It shows they're serious about becoming the best in the world instead of being satisfied with mediocrity. I wish my country's government were the same but they're unfortunately proud of their incompetence lol.
SlavaCocaini@reddit
Based.
CardinalOfNYC@reddit
It wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter.
McCheesing@reddit
Article about a 10 y/o sales campaign? Boeing leadership has long changed since then
There have been books written about this already lol. Check out Flying Blind by Peter Robison — it goes thru this in detail. Highly recommend
CardinalOfNYC@reddit
This story reads like the news just got to Poland lmao
DutchBlob@reddit
More like slowland then, ammiright?! Hehehehehe
slaps shoulder
Punkrawk78@reddit
Hey don’t be too hard on Poland, they’re still recovering bodies from the plane that crashed into the cemetery years ago.
McCheesing@reddit
Right! Happy cake day!
CardinalOfNYC@reddit
thanks!
doughnutholio@reddit
huehuehuehue
McCheesing@reddit
lol you must understand how the system works then
wiggum55555@reddit
Just because the leadership has changed doesn't make what happened in the real world in the past... just go away ??? 🤦♂️🤷♂️ Does not mean it did not happen. Boeing - an amazing company founded and built by Engineers for Engineers was somehow allowed to in a dark place by accountants and bean counters.
Saying "it happened 10 years ago..." means - it happened. They reheated the 40 year old 737 platform one too many times and got caught out badly. sadly 400+ people had to die before any real action was taken.
AceCombat9519@reddit (OP)
Correct and for reuters they should have added some of the items of it in there
Jaggedmallard26@reddit
I'm surprised they didn't considering Dan Catchpoole is their main Boeing reporter and was a reasonably respected freelance journalist specialising in Boeing prior to getting hired by Reuters. Its not like when the BBC has someone write an article who mainly specialises in regurgitating local interest stories.
Az1234er@reddit
Meh, the FAA changes are the one that reassure me more than the Boeing ones
Miserable-Biscotti54@reddit
I just don’t see it safe to travel via plane anymore. Airlines and the Manufacturers are squeezing profit at the cost of safety.
BoringBob84@reddit
Right. Just drive. Ignore the actual safety statistics if it makes you feel better.
class_rando_fxx@reddit
Bout time Poland switched to Airbus
AceCombat9519@reddit (OP)
They did with A220-371/171s
class_rando_fxx@reddit
Good
collin2477@reddit
suing for safety issues on airplanes you are currently choosing to operate is certainly an interesting strategy
Hareboi@reddit
Yeah they should just replace their entire fleet are they dumb
collin2477@reddit
so you’re saying they’re smart for endangering passengers? how can their claim and actions both be true without being contradictory?
your style of communication makes it hard to understand what you mean. i’m also not sure why they would need to replace the entire fleet, including boeing, airbus, and embraer, since the article only talks about the 737 max, and it appears most of them are leased.
Gyn_Nag@reddit
Boeing is shit and falling apart, but we're on an American website full of nationalistic proud Americans.
Ok-Insurance-9456@reddit
Reddit is anything but full of "nationalistic" Americans lmao. As someone not from usa who has been there and has family there I feel like redditors don't appreciate how great of a nation it is really
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Gyn_Nag@reddit
Sorry, *subconsciously* nationalistic americans.
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PigSlam@reddit
Has anyone in the history of anything used safety concerns about the thing they're selling as a selling point?
Main_Violinist_3372@reddit
There is only one hour of oxygen left in the submarine
djsnoopmike@reddit
200 mil? Not enough for Boeing to even assassinate over
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Imallvol7@reddit
I'm sure they will once again suffer no consequences and probably see a decrease in regulations. Possible a bailout by tax payers
Pol_Potamus@reddit
Terminal_Phase@reddit
How is this news? We’ve known this for years
sasheenka@reddit
The court case between LOT and Boeing just went to trial, that’s what the article is about/
BigJellyfish1906@reddit
Very late to the party... click bait.
kukolsghost@reddit
Not click bait, though article name isn’t doing the best job in describing why LOT is saying this - LOT have taken Boeing to court for 200 million dollars over this, and the case is finally confirmed to go to court in Seattle as of yesterday. Article is regarding this court case going into effect, not just about stating the obvious.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
But it is clickbait. What gets more engagement, a sensationalist headline about the MAX and safety concerns, or an accurate headline about LOT suing for $200m in alleged lost revenue?
This is corporate bickering spilling over into the public. Nothing more. Plenty of other airlines have settled, privately, with Boeing to compensate them for the grounding.
Terminal_Phase@reddit
That’s fine. But the headline should explain that, not you in a comment
beezxs@reddit
Water found in the ocean
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AceCombat9519@reddit (OP)
Link to the source is thisreuters article name is LOT Polish Airlines says Boeing hid 737 MAX safety concerns to sell jets