Did fashion and music used to connect people more before algorithms existed?
Posted by mechumechu@reddit | Xennials | View on Reddit | 46 comments
One thing I notice when Xennials talk about the 80s, 90s and early internet era is how closely fashion, music and identity seemed connected š
I've talked to people on an anonymous video chat site and they described instantly recognizing what kind of music someone liked just from band shirts, hairstyles, jackets, shoes, CDs in their room, posters etc. It sounds like subcultures felt way more visible in everyday life.Now it feels like everyone listens to everything through the same apps and trends change so fast online that styles donāt stay connected to communities the same way anymore.
Do you think people actually bonded more through music/fashion back then or does it just feel nostalgic looking back?
I'm curious to know because even when I see my dad's old photos it's highly inspired by music bands which I don't think is that prominent today? Or maybe it is
DjCyric@reddit
I used to read URB magazine and was always blown away by thr futuristic fashion. Now no one reads magazines.
Miami_Mice2087@reddit
it's not the algorithms that ruined community online, it's the lack of conversational space. You don't see the same people over and over again, you don't have message boards where your people hang out together, you don't have fan-made spaces that are separate from corporate interests
LonghornJct08@reddit
Yes. All this reflects who they are and people would use that as cues when talking to them.
If you visited someoneās home, you could learn a lot about the person by looking at the books and records and CDs on their shelves, magazines on the coffee table, and the art on the walls. It was always fascinating.
This is still true to an extent that you still see physical media, but definitely applies more strongly to older people that have kept their physical media.
nyght2063@reddit
I don't miss it. Every thing was spoon fed to us. I love having multiple apps they I can use to listen to music or watch shows that are independent on what's "popular".
WeenisPeiner@reddit
Now I see kids wearing band shirts whom never even listened to the band.
edasto42@reddit
It still happens. I think because people arenāt young anymore and donāt socialize with young folks, you donāt see it. I can walk down the street and see the university students leaving class and still see all the archetypes. Thereās the jocks and whatever modern term for preppies is, thereās the punks, thereās the goths, the hardcore kids, hip hop people, and plenty of average young folks just getting through the day. It really doesnāt look too much different than when I was in university in the mid 90ās.
Actual-Bandicoot6947@reddit
This is the second post I've seen today with a link to Vooz...
ArtsyRabb1t@reddit
Yes, but mainly because we all listened to the same stations on the radio or watched the same videos on MTV. Now you can find content everywhere.
supergooduser@reddit
Yeah... band shirts were kind of a way to broadcast to other fans of the band or type of music, and pre internet it was more difficult to get band shirts, especially obscure ones. You either had to go to a concert, order from a catalog, or maybe a head shop.
In 1995 I saw a kid at my high school with a Sister Machine Gun shirt and was like "holy fuck" and we became buddies.
Primary-Strawberry-5@reddit
I wore a Type O Negative shirt to a new posting at my old employer and made a best friend that day because of it
imlookingatthefjord@reddit
There sure seem to be a lot of random posts in different subs about this new video chat siteā¦ #ad
IceSmiley@reddit
I think more movies and TV did since there was so few at any one time that just watching something guaranteed someone else was watching. Also sports.
Specialist-Leek8645@reddit
Yeah it's different now but the basic concept is the same. We pick styles to look cool to ourselves but also to signal to others what we like in the hopes that they match. Bands often make unique symbols for that reason, like HIM or NiN, even ICP. Our cliques were made famous by movies and many subcultures link to those archetypes. Goth is related to Punk kinda like HipHop is related to R&B. Blues to Jazz. The Afro-American influences started getting mainstream in the 70s but by the 90s it was freshly-normal for white kids to listen to Rap. That's historically important. White kids were hanging out with Black kids more often and the Black culture was dominant especially in city life. That never happened before, certainly not at that scale. There was always a barrier. It was cool, like watching the work of Black social movements bear fruit. There was some friction. It's still being worked out, I'm mentioning this history bc it's not done yet. There was a whole behind-the-scenes culture war going on in communities and record studios. White parents were not happy their kids were "acting Black." We need to remember that everyone being so mixed-up and blending is still pretty recent and new so it can't be taken for granted. Despite that, AfroAmerican culture has been a massive influence in everything, whether they get credit or not. That brings us to Michael Jackson. He was a bridge between music and culture. Most Xennials have a unique opinion of him, ask your Dad. He was a huge huge influence on culture world-wide and he kinda blended the glam of Disco with Pop; The King of Pop, both Black and White.
Separate from that is the European influences, England primarily, with lots of edgier music from Poland and Eastern Europe. UK music has always been a big part of ours. We built our own styles based on what our favorite musicians wore in their videos and album covers. Punk patches were a maximalist way to display your favorite bands as well as some cheeky opinions. It represented young adults rejecting what came before in favor of figuring it out yourself and echoed the Hippie movement a bit. Clothes just as shredded but on purpose. These "original forms" of subculture fashion were loud for a reason but as we've aged they have naturally become subdued and incorporated with whatever fashion is around at the time. In general, clothes have gotten very boring. All design style has been steamed flat. Soulless. A perfect runway for AI. Style isn't dead tho! I'm glad to see mohawks and pink hair. Maybe we were the pioneers who made it possible for someone to go to the bank dressed however they want. It was unheard of, like going to a store in your pajamas. So much pearl clutching.
Right now, our late-teen years are super nostalgic not only for us but everyone else too, apparently. Maybe you sense what your dad misses and you're trying to put your finger on it. All the separate styles have merged into something more subdued and homogeneous. Some of us still wear pieces of our youth, many of us wear tattoos from it. Those clearly-defined subcultures are often blurry now in favor of versions that are more practical. Nail polish doesn't last long when your hands are in the kitchen sink all day. Black is always in style but our outfits were real costumes and few people keep up with it into their 40s and 50s. It takes a lot of work to get dressed up to go clubbing and once 8pm hits, I'm not leaving the house lol. I've probably bored you by now but maybe you found some of it interesting. :D
Unhappy_Performer538@reddit
The type of music you liked was who you were and who you hung out with and how you dressed. People aren't even into music as much now as they used to be and it's honestly really sad it's like losing a piece of humanity. IDK the subculture thing being less rigid is probably good bc it classified people as cool, uncool, edgy, etc, and you really couldn't break out of that label without major effort, and it dictated who your friends were. Now you can dress however you want just bc you want to and listen to music that doesn't go with the aesthetic at all just bc you feel like it, and it's extremely freeing, but then on the other hand it's a weaker sense of community and certainly less participation in this human thing of music and art.
Sumeriandawn@reddit
Monoculture institutions like MTV and magazines died out. With them gone, who will set the trends now?
magsli@reddit
Interesting you're in your 20s and in this sub, but good to know you're curious about it all. Living vicariously through us? Haha
But seriously. Music and fashion were inextricably connected because of print and television. By "print" I mean magazines, glossies, zines, newspapers, flyers, concert/show programs, whatever. Television shows and commercials- from news to eventually MTV and VHI. Retail stores that had curated soundtracks, indie radio stations and mixtapes made by employees.
But magazines were the reason why there was always a link between fashion, people, genres and subcultures.
None of this exists anymore. Ask your Dad about which magazines he read and you'll get an idea of where he got his style from.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
This is genuinely such a thoughtful explanation. The ācurated soundtracks and employee mixtapesā part especially painted a whole era in my head. Feels like people used to discover identities through communities instead of algorithms deciding everything for us. Tiny tragedy of modern life right there. PS- haha about me in my 20s it's like early 30s but i 30s is the new 20s
magsli@reddit
But not just algorithms serving you content. It's that you aren't actively in a physical space. You don't go to a website to shop for clothes and hear multiple full length songs while you're scrolling. Social media doesn't allow for that either. You're not sitting at home flipping through a magazine while listening to the local college punk station. There's no more water cooler talk at the office, there's no more showing up at high school after the weekend carrying the latest issue of the most coveted fashion magazine or going to the mall and entering the candle and flax clothing store that played and sold World Music CDs and cassettes. There's no more hunting for imported fashion magazines and records or CDs from the UK and Japan.
The algorithm feeds, but the internet has removed living life in a patient and considered way.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
šÆšÆ you kinda expanded my horizons of thinking
Fuckspez42@reddit
Music has always had something like an algorithm: the radio. Sure, there were times you could call in and request a song, but what actually hit the airwaves was up to the discretion of the DJ.
That said, as far as āconnecting peopleā goes, there were occasional magical moments when you pulled up to a stoplight and the person in the car next to you was singing along to the same song you were listening to. The odds of that happening today are negligible.
burnerburneronenine@reddit
It used to be that everyone watched MTV and took their style cues from their favorite artists. There are still style trends- they are just driven by social media influencers. (See, eg, the Christian girl autumn photo) I'd argue you can still infer a lot about a person's tastes based on what they wear.
scifithighs@reddit
While I'm generally very pro- folks dressing however they like, it's very disorienting to my Old Goth Lady ass to see young folks decked out like they're going to pray at the Temple of Love, only to discover they're only into nerdy anime music or funk hiphop or something, and think Siouxsie Sioux is someone's boomer auntie š¤£
xRVAx@reddit
It's true for goth, punk, and grateful dead jam band type music., especially for troubled teens.
There was a lot of norm core type teen wear (tee shirt and jeans, button up plaid or flannel shirts) but honestly the algorithms back then were just human executives at American Eagle deciding what the teen fashion trends should be and then marketing the hell out of that.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
kinda funny how even if trends were manufactured back then, they still led to actual communities. now it feels more individualized but also way more disconnected somehow
xRVAx@reddit
I dunno if you're in your 40s things are more disconnected than when you were a teenager.
I don't know what the teenagers now are doing but I guarantee you if a teenager went to a concert or music festival they'd feel oddly connected to a [totally manufactured] community.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
I'm in my late 20s but tbh have a music taste linked to 80s-90s maybe š¤ cause I grew up with it
magsli@reddit
Interesting you're in your 20s and in this sub, but good to know you're curious about it all. Living vicariously through us? Haha
But seriously. Music and fashion were inextricably connected because of print and television. By "print" I mean magazines, glossies, zines, newspapers, flyers, concert/show programs, whatever. Television shows and commercials- from news to eventually MTV and VHI. Retail stores that had curated soundtracks, indie radio stations and mixtapes made by employees.
But magazines were the reason why there was always a link between fashion, people, genres and subcultures.
None of this exists anymore. Ask your Dad about which magazines he read and you'll get an idea of where he got his style from.
One_Working1944@reddit
Are anonymous video chat even a thing these days?
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
Yes, very much a thing. Vooz and discord are pretty good for anonymous chatting
Powerful-Entry8505@reddit
I teach university students in the Boston area and chat a lot with students about music and to a smaller degree touch on music during certain lectures. My university also has a lot of musically interested and talented students. The biggest change I notice is that current 18-23yo love music but canāt place it decades-wise.
I wonder if itās the death of radio and the lack of stations āplaying the hits from the 50s and 60sā or ātodayās best r and b and hip hopā or āsoft favorites from the 80s 90s and todayā. Instead, itās just a constant stream of music from your phone to your ear speakers or your party outdoor speakers, decontextualized from time.
Itās grad party time rn in the neighborhood and I can tell you, they are listening to EVERYTHING from today, our youth, and earlier!
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
that actually explains a lot. feels like people connect through moods now more than eras or scenes. iāve had random convos on Vooz where someone jumps from 90s rock to current hyperpop in the same discussion š
Powerful-Entry8505@reddit
Yep another great example!
Immediate_Elk_6001@reddit
Video games connected more people honestly
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
I won't argue with it
kheret@reddit
Yes. Finding people who liked the same music as you was a good way to find people who might be similar in other ways. And a good way to signal what type of music you were into was to dress a certain way (or to be really obvious and wear a band shirt). It was considered pretty fake to wear a bandās shirt if you werenāt very into the band, also, in part because itās a breach of that social signaling.
I confess I initially approached my husband at a party because of the Metallica t-shirt he was wearing.
Vivid_Foundation4873@reddit
Which anonymous chat site is it? Omegle?
agentmkultra666@reddit
š
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
No it's vooz co
brodievonorchard@reddit
No more monoculture means no more genre churn. People have access to the whole history of music and no MTV or pop radio to channel them into a current trend.
Pick any genre and there's a community online somewhere discussing the classics and talking about the new stuff.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
true tbh, communities still exist but they feel way less local/personal now. most people discover each other through feeds instead of organically. weirdly had more real convos on vooz/random vcs lately than anywhere else
brodievonorchard@reddit
I don't know what vooz or vcs are. Maybe if I did I'd have more new music I liked.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
Yeah I had good Convo there and somehow this question intrigued me
brodievonorchard@reddit
There's a much deeper answer to your original question I'm afraid to answer because I don't want to write a book.
There was a series of rebellions from the dominant culture. Beatniks then hippies then punks, post punk, new wave, alternative and so many more.
People used clothing to identify themselves as members of these groups. The reality of whatever you want to call the dominant culture, is that it undermines rebellion by subsuming rebellion against it. Each subculture experienced having the related political movement stripped out and a sanitized version of the visual acutrement being commercialized and sold back to them.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
that actually makes a lot of sense. feels like the moment a subculture becomes recognizable, it immediately gets turned into an aesthetic and sold back to people stripped of the original meaning
FoppyRETURNS@reddit
Yes. Fashion dictated music taste, and music created fashions. Obviously not for everyone, but people would 'connect' in their cliques, like preps, skaters, freaks, etc. A lot of it was dictated by dress and music.
mechumechu@reddit (OP)
real. feels like subcultures got replaced by algorithms š had more authentic convos on vooz than instagram lately