"It's just a few riding on public roads..."
Posted by Inciteful_Analysis@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 93 comments
When the overwhelming majority ride e-motos illegally, bans are the natural result. These brats attacked a maintenance worker at a park. Probably because he told them to stop tearing up the grass.
Once again the reporting erroneously refers to them as ebikes.
Think_Green2240@reddit
Electric motorcycles are already defined and regulated by California law (CA holds majority of market share of e-bike and electric motorcycle sales - just food for thought). Simply because this sub doesn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t mean there is not already a definite legal distinction between e-bikes and electric motorcycles. There is. Read more here:
Too Fast, Too Furious: Attorney General Bonta, California District Attorneys Issue Consumer Alert on E-Bike Safety, Legal Requirements
Tight-War-8013@reddit
No? They just said that it isnt an “ebike” under California law. They said it should be something else, but they don’t clarify because it doesn’t fit an existing category. Road legal? No. Motorcycle? Also no. Grey area even in California.
Think_Green2240@reddit
“Two-wheeled vehicles that go over 28 miles per hour with pedal assistance or 20 miles per hour with throttle assistance are not e-bikes — under California law, they are mopeds or motorcycles and require additional licensing and age requirements to operate and sell.”
No? This is coming from the minds of CA attorneys whose words are definitive, come from an existing legal framework, and are backed up by law enforcement. The definition is there. California is where the majority of these exist. There is no liminal space here. Sure, it may not apply wherever you are at this time, but I sure hope it will soon. By the way, here is a graphic from a local CA Police department that makes the difference more simple. What you call a ‘grey area’ is not so. Don’t hold out hope your grey area will exist much longer in other states - I haven’t checked on this state by state, but I will soon.
Tight-War-8013@reddit
Yes exactly what I said. Not ebikes, but not in an existing category. You have the same information, right there.
Think_Green2240@reddit
The category you are referring to is actually what they state in that quote as electric motorcycles and electric mopeds. Not murky at all.
Tight-War-8013@reddit
Ok by your quote Ebikes cant exist. A hill enables any bike to go 30mph so they all don’t qualify. Go program your bike to auto brake when it hits 20 ig
Think_Green2240@reddit
The attorneys’ quote pertains to pedal assist up to and including 28mph on pedals and 20mph with a throttle, not unassisted hill descent. Any assistance to pedals gauged by a torque or cadence sensor resulting in assisted speed above 28mph or throttle-only assistance via the motor resulting in above 20mph means the vehicle is an electric motorcycle or moped. Anything below these power assistance limits, results in the vehicle being categorized as either a Class 1, 2, or 3 e-bike.
Tight-War-8013@reddit
Context not provided by quote or law. So up to the discretion of law enforcement, not you. So if you get pulled over you get impounded too, if the cop just doesn’t like bikes. The law states shall not go above 28mph and 20mph. It can go above, and would have to auto brake when nearing 29mph to be legal.
Think_Green2240@reddit
Also, the attorneys state clearly in the original consumer alert: “Two-wheeled vehicles that go over 28 miles per hour with pedal assistance or 20 miles per hour with throttle assistance are not e-bikes — under California law, they are mopeds or motorcycles and require additional licensing and age requirements to operate and sell.
Think_Green2240@reddit
For anyone who’s curious and prudent enough to actually and thoroughly read what’s written in CA law, instead of speculating and conjecturing, check out:
California Vehicle Code (CVC) §312.5 - E-Bike Definition [Anything Above is Not an E-Bike]
CVC §405 - Motor-Driven Cycle [Definition]
CVC §436.1 - Electric Off-Highway Motorcycle [Further Definition]
CVC §38012 - Identification Requirements
CVC §38010 - Operation Requirements
CVC §22651.08 - Impound Authority
Think_Green2240@reddit
Simply untrue, wishful thinking.
Own_Reaction9442@reddit
Part of the problem is most of the illegal ebikes aren't legal as motorcycles either. They don't have the required equipment and don't have a VIN.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
I feel like if anything that just makes them easier to impound then? A dual sport would probably whip most of those ebikes, even the twin-hub, max-torque ones.
Literally just chase them flat out, your gas tank will take you 20x further than they could ever hope to go.
FigNinja@reddit
I don't think police departments want their officers getting into chases with children on motorcycles. Chases are already dangerous for everyone around. Chasing a child who you know is probably unable to handle the bike they are riding seems likely to end in tragedy. I think most people would find that reckless on the part of the police, even if they agree the bike should be seized. I saw an article a few months back about a department in California that was following them home with a drone, then sending officers to impound the bike and deal with the parents.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
That last part is the smart move, tbh. I agree that a vehicle on vehicle chase is suboptimal compared to just using a go-anywhere drone to keep eyes on them until they go home.
Kids are always going to be rebels, that's normal. I don't think kids should just stop all riding. You can be a latchkey kid with the means to get around on a bike. But the counterpart lesson to certain kinds of rebellion is consequences. It's how we grow up. We make a controlled mistake, we witness the consequences and we initiate a correction.
Pixelplanet5@reddit
[ Removed by Reddit ]
alzrnb@reddit
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/23/south-wales-police-van-was-pursuing-teenagers-in-cardiff-force-admits
We've already had that inciting incident in the UK. Not sure if there's data showing any correlations from it.
Revelati123@reddit
Wow, thats insane!
Pixelplanet5@reddit
thats reality, its how it has always been, thats how the majority of safety rules were created.
maethor1337@reddit
It’s the same for off-road dirt bikes which can’t be made road legal, and yet somehow we manage to not have dirt bikes all over the bike paths.
Own_Reaction9442@reddit
Depends on where you live. I watched three unlicensed dirt bikes and an ATV tear through downtown recently, popping wheelies. In some places they're all over the bike paths too. The police sort of threw a snit after BLM and haven't really done any part of their jobs since.
NadlesKVs@reddit
Definitely this. I have a modified UltraBee that I primary run at the track but I'll putt it around the neighborhood (which is wide open and definitely not a problem in my area) from time to time when my kid is riding her pedal bike or MX350.
If I could register it and take it on short errands I totally would but I can't in my state at the moment.
Own_Reaction9442@reddit
Probably the same people who used to buy their kids go-karts and let them ride them in the street.
hezuschristos@reddit
Yes. They are dirtbikes. Generally classed as off-road vehicles. They exist, they are fine, they just don’t belong on roads or non-motorized trails. Adding an electric motor and being able to order them online didn’t change that. Unfortunately people seem to have a hard time connecting these dots.
Extreme_Health_9827@reddit
Not the bikes it's the kids and the parents that give them the bikes if you're not 16 shouldn't be on any of them
zacmobile@reddit
Why the F is every single news story about maniac kids on "ebikes" actually totally illegal electric motorcycles?
Gobias_Industries@reddit
Because people who sell (or stand to profit in some way) on e-motos have spent significant money and effort to blur the lines between ebikes and e-motos. That way they can market to parents whose kids want an "ebike" which is really an e-motorcycle.
terraherts@reddit
You have it backwards, it's auto industry and other established interests that intentionally blur the line because banning them pushes more people back into cars.
The e-moto industry is relatively tiny and doesn't have the kind of influence you seem to think it does.
Gobias_Industries@reddit
So you think it's all big bad auto, and surron isn't out there pushing an agenda at all?
terraherts@reddit
I'm sure Surron is, I'm saying they literally don't have that much power/influence to push much
Vespizzari@reddit
Surron is a 140 employee Chinese design and engineering firm. Their "agenda" is selling motorcycles. The e-moto issue in the USA is an enforcement problem.
It's no harder to buy a small displacement conventional dirt bike than an e-moto, and it's often cheaper. These bikes appeal because they're silent and because kids will tell their parents "it's just an ebike" and parents don't bother to learn anything before they pull out the Visa.
Regular dirt bikes don't require registration in many states, and you don't need a licence to ride them. This is a case of illegal use of a perfectly legal product.
MigraineWhiskey@reddit
FWIW, it looks like there is are US street legal versions of the Sur Ron Ultra Bee: https://sur-ronusa.us.com/product/sur-ron-ultra-bee/ , https://us.sur-ron.com/ultrabee/
"Legal" meaning /eligible/ to be registered for road use. I'm sure whether they can be registered, and as what, depends on the state. Hard to imagine they would be registered as anything less than a motorcycle anywhere.
To say nothing of the age of the rider, whether they have a license, etc.
Vespizzari@reddit
Yeah there are a few small e-motos available with a VIN/PIN that makes them eligible for registration. There are also some states where as long as you mount a plate, headlight, and turn signals, you can register anything with wheels.
To your point it doesn't do anything about kids without licenses or unregistered bikes.
vpach530@reddit
What an absolute braindead response, please take this nonsense back to r/fuckcars.
secondhandoak@reddit
I'm surprised parents spend that money on their kids. I got a $100 kmart bicycle when I was 14 and my parents made a big deal about it. Maybe getting an emoto is the new thing you do at 16 instead of learning to drive/getting a license because it's cheaper for parents?
trevaftw@reddit
Because this sub allows them and calls them ebikes as well.
Ol_Man_J@reddit
Any source for what the maintenance worker said or are you adding conjecture
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
The reporter mentions they were riding on the grass. I'm speculating that the worker told them to stop riding on the grass and that set them off.
Ol_Man_J@reddit
I don't like the e moto kids doing this too, but you're adding some speculation to add bias.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
It's hardly a stretch to think a parks maintenance worker would tell kids on dirt bikes to stop tearing up the grass. It's a logical inference on what likely led to the confrontation.
Ol_Man_J@reddit
I agree, but he could have just as much said "no ebikes in the park" or "no vaping" or "get the fuck outta her you shitheads" but nobody knows so why add conjecture.
terraherts@reddit
The bikes are already illegal, so adding more bans instead of actually enforcing the rules we already have just screws over regular people and solves nothing.
Real problems don't justify bad laws, you guys have got to stop giving politicians a pass for this shit.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
I'm specifically referring to bans on news sales per the Amazon announcement this week for California.
deck_hand@reddit
So, we're banning the sale of dirt bikes to those who want to ride dirt bikes on dirt bike tracks, because some kids misuse the product? How about we ban all cars because some people drive after drinking alcohol? Maybe we should ban hamburgers because some people die of heart disease?
Enforce the laws against the behavior of those who are breaking the law, not the product they are using.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
"Some"? It's almost every one who buys them that uses it illegally. Cut the crap.
But offroad parks should have an exemption and should be able to rent them out. Yes, the 98% breaking the law are impacting the 2% that are not.
FigNinja@reddit
Not the person you're responding to, but I agree on not banning all dirt bike sales, since they are legal off road. However, it is illegal to sell them in California if they aren't UL certified. I think there might be some other acceptable certifications, but that same kind of standard. Most of the stuff being sold on Amazon doesn't reach that standard and should not be shipped here for that reason.
Lostintimeandspac@reddit
love how folks try to distinguish ebikes from emotos .. government officials don't know the difference and don't care. The Karens that whine about this stuff, don't know the difference and don't care. This is the stuff that will get strict laws put in place and make everyone suffer. so remember to thank your local idiot when you see them.
FigNinja@reddit
In the US, there is widespread ignorance of ebike laws, but most states have them. The vast majority of the US population lives in states that use the 3 class system.
Get_Fuckin_Dabbed_On@reddit
i keep saying this. all the emoto hate in this sub is going to backfire on EVERYONE.
MigraineWhiskey@reddit
To backfire, an internal combustion engine would be required
MigraineWhiskey@reddit
Recent legislation in New Jersey would seem to indicate that they care about the difference to distinguish 4 levels
Low-speed electric bicycles (pedal-assist, max 20 mph) (Class 1 and Class 2) (introduced in 2019),
A motorized bicycle (moped) is a pedal bicycle that is throttle-capable of assisted speeds up to 28 miles per hour. (Class 3)
Low-speed motorcycles are less than 50 cubic centimeters (cc) or have a 1.5 brake horsepower motor or less with a maximum speed no more than 35 miles per hour on a flat surface.
Motorcycles: As I understand it, anything with 2 or 3 wheels that has an attached motor but doesn't fall under the previous categories
I have a what is now a "low speed electric bicycle" from 2007 - I was tempted to up the voltage when I redid the battery pack but wanted to keep it in the original requirements.
terraherts@reddit
You mean my local politicians? Because last I checked, the idiot kid on an ebike isn't the one passing bad laws.
Ok_Plenty4953@reddit
AGAIN: THESE ARE NOT E-BIKES, THEY ARE E-MOTOS!!!!
weregeek@reddit
No. The are unregistered motorcycles operated by unlicensed riders.
Vespizzari@reddit
Regular dirt bikes don't require registration in many states, and you don't need a licence to ride them. This is a case of illegal use of a perfectly legal product.
FigNinja@reddit
In my state, and I believe many others, dirt bikes don't require a license or registration because they aren't street legal. If you want to drive it off road, you can do that. If you want to drive something in the street that exceeds the speed or power of a Class 1-3 ebike in my state and many others, you need a license, registration. In my state, that vehicle now requires lights, including a brake light, turn signals, and a rear view mirror to be permitted on public roads. Our streets and highways are highly regulated spaces.
maydisturb@reddit
"Hey Parents! This Christmas, surprise the hormonal morons in your life with the gift of accelerating 0-50 in 4 seconds. They're sure to figure out how to ride it safely and respectfully on their own."
Time_Bill_9556@reddit
But they can be taught how to safely ride
maethor1337@reddit
On a track, yes. If they want to ride on the street or bike path they can get a legal vehicle like the rest of us.
nyITguy@reddit
And yet, still illegally if they're on the street. E-motos are not street legal in many places.
weregeek@reddit
Nay. E-motos are. not. street. legal.
Pixelplanet5@reddit
its still illegal and they should have it at all.
they could get a regular ebike without any problems.
BoltMyBackToHappy@reddit
Moot point when they're too young to understand the danger of those speeds on public streets. Much different from trailering them to autocross parks for an event and let them rip their bike there.
hezuschristos@reddit
You are 100% correct, but it’s not very common in the cities and suburbs that families all dirtbike together. Kids are getting electric dirt-bikes in the mail, their parents are teaching them or riding with them. If they were you wouldn’t see them riding down the road.
Seeking_Balance101@reddit
"Your kid a troublesome brat but you can't kill him because of laws and stuff? Buy him the Emoto Road Pizza 3000 and tell him to go play in traffic! He'll love the freedom and very shortly, you will too!"
Such_Can_5353@reddit
not a single ebike in that video
BoltMyBackToHappy@reddit
Crack down on the asshats but let us normal riders ride.
celeste_ferret@reddit
Absolutely, as long as normal means riding a legal class 1, 2, or 3 ebike under 750 watts with throttle speeds limited to 20mph and pedal assist stopping at 28mph.
stevis78@reddit
Those are more or less enduro motocycles.
NoSquish_@reddit
Those are not e-bikes
projectwallie@reddit
E-MOTO!! If you going to report on it, do some research first
CrashTestPhoto@reddit
The probably looked at this subs rules for their definition.
Realistic_Mix3652@reddit
How did we get into a situation where we call any dirt bike that happens to have an electric motor an electric bicycle?
tomcatx2@reddit
I don’t see any cars. What’s the problem?
Transfem-love@reddit
This is a parental issue.
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Certainly parents are failing. And it's become a public nuissance & safety issue. When parents fail, law enforcement has to intervene.
ljfrench@reddit
Just adding that we had the same problem in Allentown for the 20 years I lived there. The groups of teenagers were riding the same bikes/motos back then, they just had two stroke gas engines, and were usually actual dirtbikes.
Get_Fuckin_Dabbed_On@reddit
yawn. hoodlums acting like hoodlums. its just rage bait at this point.
nuyirnumi@reddit
The problem is this news uses a general term "e-bike". That's like saying they're looking for a suspect driving an EV. A) Obviously there are many brands and models, and B) the fact that they're e-bikes has nothing to do with how they decided to behave.
DoeBites@reddit
I mean…the type of mobility device, or whatever you want to call these things, kind of has a lot to do with how they decided to behave. They were given something that has the physical capability to be used this way. If these were e-bikes that need to be pedaled and top out at 21 mph, these kids wouldn’t be riding like this because the bike itself would be the limiting factor there.
Rawlus@reddit
i mean being honest, this sub uses the same generic term ebike to mean multiple different emobility vehicles so i can’t blame the media for doing the same damned thjng. we even have a definition in the sub description that says ebike is all of the above.
sentinel_of_ether@reddit
They are doing it on purpose to
nuyirnumi@reddit
Yeah I know. It's something the media loves to do.
Jessica1234567891011@reddit
This is why young people stay in their rooms playing video games as everything is illegal in this fascist country. I don't blame them. Can't have fun?
youandican@reddit
So this is your idea of having fun? Being a little asshole riding in the street or harassing people of hurting someone else. Welcome to the real world where there are rules and regulations for everything. This is what growing the fuck up is all about
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
E-motos weren't even a thing a decade ago yet prior generations didn't need to play in traffic. Quit making excuses for hooligans that have no respect for the safety of others. There are offroad parks where these can be ridden legally.
youandican@reddit
How about you reporters call these what they are e-moto's not e-bikes. <aybe it is time to hole the parents responsible for the action of their kids. Just maybe by doing that these sort of issue would become less of an issue
Ok-Type-8917@reddit
When I was a kid some of my friends had mini bikes, dirt bikes etc. A big suburban area, you got caught on the streets gone.
CheshiresTARDIS@reddit
Its the people not the product...
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit (OP)
Sure, and 90% of the people buying the product use it illegally.
Think_Green2240@reddit
They’re already defined and regulated by California law (CA holds majority of market share of e-bike and electric motorcycle sales - just food for thought). Simply because this sub doesn’t acknowledge it, doesn’t mean there is not already a definite legal distinction between e-bikes and electric motorcycles. There is. Read more here:
Too Fast, Too Furious: Attorney General Bonta, California District Attorneys Issue Consumer Alert on E-Bike Safety, Legal Requirements
Lordly_Lobster@reddit
And this is why we can't have nice things.
stone_database@reddit
Those all looked like eMotos to me.