Petition for sub to follow legal definition of e-bike and exclude motos/mopeds/dirt bikes

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SlashNreap@reddit

Oh nice, another one of those. Let me just take the opportunity to present what an actual electric motorcycle looks like, this is important. A lot of people just cannot make the difference:

Here, a motorcycle. It's electric.

Does this look anything like an Engwe M20, or Ridstar Q20? Nope. Because it wasn't engineered like the Engwe M20 or the Q20. So stop calling these electric fatwheel ebikes *motorcycles*. The above is a motorcycle, it was from the ground up designed, engineered, ergonomically, safety-wise, everything, as a motorcycle, with modern motorcycle standards. It'll do the same things a Honda, Kawa, Suzuki, Triumph will do.

Yes, it has a throttle, but, no, slapping a throttle on just about anything doesn't make it a motorcycle. Just like a gokart is not a car just because it has a steering wheel.

There. I have to get it out of my system every week.

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anonlite@reddit

Is this a motorcylce yes or no ?

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SlashNreap@reddit

Yeah. Unless you're trying to go "gotcha" by posting a scale model toy or something, yeah, that's a motorcycle. Or you're about to refer to Surrons. Yes, Surrons are also motorcycles because they're designed to be dirt bikes, which, electric dirt bikes are motorcycles.

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anonlite@reddit

Ok so the point you're making is useless..and your little lesson of what qualifies as a electric motorcycle is irrelevant for "motos/mopeds/dirt bikes" post. Funny enough tho you just demonstrated how all of the terms can over lap which contradicts having such narrow definition (that no one else is using)

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anonlite@reddit

Champ I’m not reading the novel you pulled out of your ass. You don’t even know what “narrow definition” means. “Has a throttle” captures many many results - the opposite of a narrow definition. No one needs your wrong explanations and my point remains.

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SlashNreap@reddit

How's posting a picture of a different kind of motorcycle make my point useless or disprove it? My point exactly is people shouldn’t reduce “motorcycle” to just “has a throttle.”, that's a narrow definition.

The engineering, design, use, and safety standards behind the vehicle is what makes it a specific class of vehicle. Electric mopeds, Electric bikes, have nowhere near the same standards across the board that motorcycles do because they're just not made for the same thing.

The whole issue is that people on this sub can't (or don't want to) make the different between throttle e-bike and an actual motorcycle so it's definitely not as irrelevant as you think.

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thereal_greg6@reddit

Dirt bikes with electric motors are dirt bikes.

Personally I’d like to see my country relax the restrictions for ebikes. More powerful motors, higher top speed, maybe some throttle allowed for getting off from the lights. What’s legal as a bike in the US is very illegal in the UK.

I think this will help bikes become a more viable alternative for cars and that will be a good thing.

I don’t think banning conversation about more powerful bikes will help that.

That being said, e-bikes =/= electric dirt bikes. Where would this sub draw the line though?

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mickeyaaaa@reddit

no pedals seems like a reasonable line imho. also for electric dirt bikes most of those owners know to go to r/hyperebikes or r/surron or other subs

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thereal_greg6@reddit

Yep, agree with all of that

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One-Treat4655@reddit

E-bikes should only include pedelacs. No throttle.

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Odd_Structure1312@reddit

Why no throttle? If it's restricted to under 15 mph, what difference does a throttle make? Throttle bikes also have pedal assist.

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One-Treat4655@reddit

You aren't pedaling. If you are not putting power into forward motion, I would classify that as moped, motorcycle, but not bicycle. And that is fine if the sub wants to be inclusive.

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Odd_Structure1312@reddit

Having a throttle doesn't mean it gets used the entire time.

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Roguekit@reddit

I agree. If it has a throttle it is a moped.

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LetoTheTyrant@reddit

Call it whatever you want, but this sub accepts all small electric vehicles.

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Roguekit@reddit

I don't have a problem with the sub allowing g them. People call lots of things with 2 wheels bikes and that's ok.

I jokingly refer to my bicycle club as my biker gang.

It doesn't change my opinion that if vehicle has a motor, pedals, and a throttle it should be classified as a moped whether it is gas powered or electric.

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JuniorKey9708@reddit

That's not what the law says

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JuniorKey9708@reddit

Sime jurisdictions have categorized some bikes with throttles as legal "ebikes." That does not include emotos and edirtbikes. Anything that is legally classified as an electric bicycle should be all that is discussed here

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Elk801@reddit

Oh boy, the “6kw Amazon e-bike” crowd is not going to be happy with this one.

I’m so sick of “how can I make my bike go faster” bros.

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thirtynation@reddit

If you're "so sick" of something you perceived to be posted here then wouldn't it be a better use of your own time to instead of bitching just go read the subreddit more focused on your interests?

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Elk801@reddit

Have you tried finding a subreddit more focused on your interests?

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Opal_Opasm@reddit

Have you?

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thirtynation@reddit

Yeah. This one.

You're the jackwad trying to fuck it up for the rest of us.

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Opal_Opasm@reddit

This specific one?

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Arcanum3000@reddit

I'd be in favor of banning "how do I derestrict my bike", "my neighbors don't like me it's not faaaaair", and "I should be able to legally ride my 6000W e-dirt bike on the street with no license" posts.

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Inciteful_Analysis@reddit

"ThE biKe is lEgaL on PriVaTe PrOpeRty!"

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anonlite@reddit

I agree. The emotos are just a different culture all together...but also the creator of the sub specifically made it inclusive. Realistically making a separate sub is probs the most reasonable

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Electrical_Tof@reddit

It's not like our cities are designed to keep alternatives to cars dangerous and the real legislative change is regarding permitted infrastructure design which makes both walking and biking and fast biking more dangerous than needed to keep cars a cushy profitable inefficient yet accessible option. Nah we need to regulate the bikes. Sure, remind people riding dangerously to drive safely maybe fine them but the amount they can reasonably be fined for 'bad behavior' cannot be unlinked so ignorantly from the car centric design which constricts the available choices.

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muskietooth@reddit

I agree. I posted a satirical image of a “crotch rocket e-bike” earlier today, got removed by mods, but the point was to illustrate how ridiculous it has become. I like true e-bikes and don’t want the baby to be thrown out with the emoto bath water unless we speak up and point out the differences.

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WarcraftTurok@reddit

I don't really care what you call it.

I am going to ride a two wheel, pedal optional, electrified thing that looks like a bike. I'm going to ride it 50mph on roads that have speed limits of 50mph. I'm going to ride it on grassy fields. I'm going to ride it on sidewalks and greenbelts and maintain respectful speeds without driving thru crowds or blowing past people. I'm going to give pedestrians the right of way. I'm going to continue doing things that provide me happiness and don't bother anyone else.

If you don't like how it looks, that's on you.

If you don't like how fast it goes, I don't care, don't ride it then.

If you don't like that children are riding these things doing wheelies at 60mph, harp on them, not me enjoying myself and being reasonable.

Now let's just enjoy two wheel riding as a community and ignore the chuds with sand in their pooswar because something's not fitting their personal definition to a T.

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Major_Potential3706@reddit

holy shit.... you some kind of adult or somethin?

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Separate-Command1993@reddit

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benmooreben@reddit

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alttabbins@reddit

I don't know how you could define them. I don't know how they would enforce it. Where do you cut the lines? A lot of people will look at a Surron and see it has pedals and define it an ebike. Some here still see fat tired chinese ebikes with no throttle and <20mph max speed as an emoto because of the fat tires. There are good examples of the 2 extremes with slow pedal only bike-looking-bikes on one end and bikes that look like dirtbikes that can go over 50mph on the other end, but a huge majority of the spectrum fits right in the middle of those 2 parts of the industry.

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Bermnerfs@reddit

I think its pretty simple, base it on the frame. An e-bike and e-moto frame look very different, and everything else is built around that.

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alttabbins@reddit

I’ve seen people put motors that push Specialized Rock Hoppers to 60 mph. I’ve seen Cafe Racer frame e-bikes that’s barely do 15mph and don’t have a throttle.

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Bermnerfs@reddit

Yes, but it's very clearly not the DIY crowd causing these issues. Downvote all you guys want, it's the teenagers on electric dirt bikes/mini bikes causing the issues. Not the hobbyists doing conversions that also happen to be fast.

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Arcanum3000@reddit

I've been here for nearly a decade. My bike was built to be a bike and predates my local laws by years. It mostly rides like a bike, not an emoto or moped, despite no longer being legal in my area. You want me to leave the sub?

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Separate-Command1993@reddit

The difference in culture is actually the distance in ages. You just want to ban all the kids from this sub let’s be real. Biggest bunch of entitled bitches on this sub. God forbid some one uses an Emoto off road

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Separate-Command1993@reddit

Are you triggered?

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quasio@reddit

Disagree and it would tank the sub imo.

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PumpkinOpposite967@reddit

Legal definition of which country?

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frowniecloud@reddit

We'd have to agree on one

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PumpkinOpposite967@reddit

Cant even agree on mph vs km/h

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AdCareless9063@reddit (OP)

For the purposes of e-bike versus e-moto discussion most countries are in similar agreement on e-bikes.

Some countries have a speed pedelec classification of 45 km (around 28 mph), with location and registration requirements. The US is the least conservative with 28 mph for e-bikes generally.

E-motos / mopeds / dirt bikes are all meant to be faster vehicles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws

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Tasty-Fox9030@reddit

Your weekly reminder that people going 28 or even gasp 30 on a bike that doesn't look all that different from a Schwinn Stingray ISN'T going to end the world but the fossil fuel industry will.

There's a reason they invented the term bike snob. It's fascinating to me that they came up with an improvement to bikes that finally gets the average person interested in them and the snobs are stepping on it to the point that they're joining the average car slob to the point that they're arguing against bikes.

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Opal_Opasm@reddit

Tap tap tap

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Realtrain@reddit

Yes, I think this petition is to adjust that.

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thirtynation@reddit

No man we're good here. People can use the more specialized subreddits for emotos or for electric bicycles if that is all the want to see. This subreddit is for everything. No reason to change it.

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Opal_Opasm@reddit

There are already subs for that

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OlDirtyBaskets@reddit

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NotASockPuppet88@reddit

Petition to get OP banned for breaking the No Gatekeeping rule of Trash talk others for what they ride.

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thirtynation@reddit

RES tells me I've downvoted them twelve times before, which means this isn't OP's first foray into gatekeeping. If enough of us report them they'll get banned for breaking the rules.

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ScoobyDooItInTheButt@reddit

I suppose it has been a little bit since someone tried to start up the crusade to change what this subreddit is all about instead of just going and making their own fucking subreddit to meet the narrow definition of what they think an e-bike sub should be. Can't wait for this to completely go nowhere and this never happen.

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thirtynation@reddit

STOP TRYING TO REARRANGE THE FURNITURE OF SOMEBODY ELSE'S HOUSE.

You people are insufferable. It's shameful that these are the posts that make it to my main feed and not the awesome posts about awesome bikes, you know, what this place is all about.

This has been a subreddit for almost 15 years.
This subreddit has always been welcoming of all kinds of lightweight electric vehicles, since the beginning, 15 years ago.
The mere TITLE of this subreddit being "ebikes" does not inherently mean that everything posted here is a class 1 electric bicycle.
Reducing the types of vehicles allowed to be posted here WILL NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE REAL WORLD WHATSOEVER. THAT IS DELUSIONAL.
The negligent parents buying their 12 year olds electric dirt bikes are NOT reading this subreddit.
The ill-informed school board members, city council members, hell even state congress members, are NOT reading this subreddit. And even if they were.... (see next point)
This subreddit DOES NOT celebrate riding illegal vehicles illegally. Every single post of a vehicle that is NOT a class 1 electric bicycle has no shortage of comments with goobers making sure to point out that the vehicle is in fact NOT a class 1 electric bicycle and no shortage of accompanying comments decrying those that ride like assholes.

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Rawlus@reddit

it’s more the shifting meaning of the name “ebike” in the forum name that is growing more misleading as additional categories and tiers become more talked about in society.

it’s like if you had a sub called r/cars but the discussions involved cars, trucks, campers, construction equipment, ATVs, etc. are they really all cars by societies definition?

i’m not saying there’s an easy or clear solution but i do see how the original use of “ebike” may have been a more generic catch all for the category of e-mobility things back in the day, but as that sector has matured and fractured into a lot of different subcategories of emobility vehicles, the term ebike is now less of a catchall generic term and more of a name used for a very specific segment.

i can see how this could be confusing, or upsetting even to newer people who came along when ebike meant a pedal assist more specifically and didn’t also mean emotos, maybe scooters, maybe unicycles. etc. but i do not think changing what is permitted or not permitted to be discussed at this juncture comes with any great benefits. i think it would just increase mod effort and take a lot of posts in negative directions conversationally.

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BWWFC@reddit

start ur own they planted the flag first... but yeah fosho at minimum, if it ain't got pedals, it ain't a bike. and if the pedals are ornamental o_O let's be real ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ now, let the arguments begin!

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mickeyaaaa@reddit

OP you're in the wrong sub.

There's already a sub for what you want:

r/ElectricBicyclesONLY

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niffcreature@reddit

Listen, I get that there is a big difference in the "culture" around these e motos and stuff, and honestly I totally get it. But the legality of it is NOT well defined yet. It varies a ton in different countries and areas. And the fact is that the type of e motos you're talking about use ALL of the same parts as ebikes and bicycles. AND there is a TON of grey area. I'm not sure if you're tired of seeing certain types of posts or what, but, I don't see how it negatively impacts the sub. Plenty of subs have off topic posts from time to time and people will politely tell them that the sub will not serve their purposes.

This is a rapidly growing and changing subject and it doesn't make sense to try and get the mods involved in splitting hairs with it. If more knowledgeable ebike people get involved in the sub then you will see that they can be helpful regardless of the wattage, style and purpose of the bikes.

Something that I think is particularly salient to mention: many people new to the sub are looking to get advice on what to buy, and don't understand the difference between the types of bikes you're describing. So teach them. Don't just say "you're not allowed here".

Also, you personally might be riding the most lightweight ebike possible, some 100 watt mid drive gravel bike, and you will still find users trying to oust you from r/bikewrench and r/whichbike. It doesn't make sense for this to be so divisive.

You might find users posting about Pokemon cards on a MTG sub. So what? If they're talking about card cases they'll probably find good advice and discussion. If they're asking about fire vs grass type Pokemon, users politely will tell them it's the wrong sub. There's no need to get mods involved and warn and ban people for this stuff just because they annoy you.

If the mods want to work with the police in different states, counties and countries to run sting operations on users buying bikes that are not road legal, then go ahead, I won't stick around for that.

If you're simply suggesting banning discussion that is specifically about evading the law, stuff like fake license plates, how to avoid cops, then I would agree with you. I think that would be a good place to draw the line. But conversations about bypassing speed limiters, how a Surron rides on the road etc is not something that directly recommends legal actions, given the extremely varied legislature in different areas.

Banning discussion of bikes of a certain style or over a specific wattage would be ridiculous.

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niffcreature@reddit

I'll add that I'm an avid road cyclist in addition to an ebike rider (just class 2 500 watt though) and I do think it's extremely important to explain to people that are new, that almost all 48v 500 watt bikes and bigger are simply not designed to be pedaled, and are not bicycles in that sense.

And honestly if you were trying to draw the line at class 3 bikes that go 28mph, that is ridiculous. Those things don't really belong in bicycle lanes either. I'm not saying don't do it, but we really all need to know our place on and off the road and keep things in perspective. Just my 2 cents.

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Trick_Minute2259@reddit

They mostly are. People get dog piled in this sub for anything that goes over 28mph, and even ones that are at or near 28mph with a throttle. r/hyperebikes already exists, and people often get directed to go there. What more do you want, strict speech controls? Do you think the general public decides whether ebikes are safe or not based on who gets to use what words for what vehicles on a reddit sub? Do you hear yourself?

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mickeyaaaa@reddit

yeah, like auto-ban anyone using these keywords: faster. throttle, speed-limiter, shunt, speed, surron, talaria. /s

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psych2099@reddit

My issue is people who talk about anything with a throttle is an "ebike" when the ones i care about are peddle assisted because ones with throttles are illegal in the uk and therefore a waste of time talking about.

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mickeyaaaa@reddit

According to Merriam-Webster, an electric bike (or e-bike) is a bicycle equipped with an electric motor that can assist with or replace pedaling. It is officially defined as a vehicle that uses a battery and motor to make pedaling easier, often featuring a throttle for acceleration, designed for both exercise and commuting.

Maybe OP should start a new sub r/legalebikes. and make it a requirement for every post to specify what country and state they are in, as legal definitions vary by country or state.

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ForsakenSignal6062@reddit

The people bitching about this constantly are such a drag on this sub. Make your own class1/2/3 e-bike specific subreddit and stop trying to change one that doesn’t belong to you and making it so people are unwelcome here because of something you don’t like

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Familiar9709@reddit

Yeah, but definition depends on the country, I guess why they don't have this rule.

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Moist_Network_8222@reddit

I feel like we could say that anything meeting the Class 1/2/3 system in most US states or the PEDELEC and S-PEDELEC standards that seem to be roughly followed by the EU, India, UK, and Australia would be fine.

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ciopobbi@reddit

Yes

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Ravio11i@reddit

"All things electric bikes from motorcycles to pedal assist. Other lightweight electric vehicles are welcomed too 😄"

Just start another, maybe r/SlowButLegalEbikes or something?

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Own-Restaurant-4818@reddit

Literally read the first sentence of the sub description. It’s like how people call dirt bikes “bikes”

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alttabbins@reddit

"All things electric bikes from motorcycles to pedal assist. Other lightweight electric vehicles are welcomed too :)"

I posted a picture of a Barbie Pink Powerwheels Jeep and it was removed, even though it's exactly what that the subreddit description says. Its a lightweight electric vehicle.

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