Ebikes don't break laws, people break laws
Posted by WTFOMGBBQ@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 283 comments
I'm in California, and I don't know how it is where you live but ebikes are getting absolutely crushed here. Mostly they are getting crushed by the same people that say "guns to kill people, people kill people."
Recently, in here in fresno ebikes were banned from the cal state fresno campus. I don't just mean, you can't ride them, I mean if they are locked up on a bike rack they are going to take it. they are blocking people from even walking them on campus.
I get it, the idiots with there 3000 watt bikes going 50mph is a really problem. And sadly, the anti-green people, that also say things like "guns don't kill people, people kill people" are all on board with restricting freedom on law abiding citizens.
rant over...
the5102018@reddit
The 2d Amendment has entered the E Bike conversation!
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
We have people defending gun ownership because guns don't kill people people kill people.. but those very same people are ready to ban all ebikes everywhere because they are too dangerous.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
Is there an amendment to the Constitution I missed with some subtext that mentions e-bikes?
Lets cool ours jets a bit here. Drawing any parity between the 2nd amendment and e-bike ownership doesn't seem like a wining strategy.
badhabitfml@reddit
Lol. Yeah without the 2a we'd have severely restricted guns a long time ago. A very loose interpretation of what a well regulated militia is has killed hundreds of thousands of people.
FunScheme9230@reddit
lol that was a libtard comment
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
yeah, we should probably disregard freedom if there isn't something specific saying we should have freedom, right?
rshetts1@reddit
The first rights given include the right to not get run down by some idiot kid on an emoto. They may be overreacting in their pending restrictions but it is because they are putting safety over the right to ride like a lunatic. Freedom does not equal "I get to do whatever I want". Society has to implement laws to protect people from others. And sometimes from themselves. Otherwise freedom is just another word for anarchy. I hate seeing how restrictive they are starting to lean towards e-bikes, especially when e-bikes, as legally defined, are in most cases not the problem. The real problem in most cases are parents buying their kids overpowered electric motorcycles and dirt bikes and allowing those kids to ride however they want to. Honestly, if they wanted to eliminate around 99% of the problem, just make it illegal for anyone under 30 to own and ride any form of electric bike or motorcycle. Problem solved!
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
I get it, freedom is scary for lots of people..
rshetts1@reddit
What you are talking about is not freedom. Its anarchy. In order to function society has to have rules. Otherwise everyone would be free to walk up to someone and put a bullet through their head, just for the hell of it.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
I think you must of skipped my entire post except the subject and the last line..
Realtrain@reddit
Sure, but "the constitution says we have freedom" is not going to be a winning argument toward pro e-bike legislation.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
The America has failed..
Realtrain@reddit
Of all the reasons America is failing, "not having a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to own an e-bike" is low on the list.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
no, when people disagree that arguing the contusion says we have freedom is not a good argument, is when we know we have failed.
AbstinentNoMore@reddit
Beep boop if something isn't protected by the literal constitution I don't believe people should be free to do it beep boop
Composed_Cicada2428@reddit
It's called an analogy
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
Eh, I'd push back on it being a poor analogy. I understand the "guns don't kill people / e-bikes don't break laws" comparison but use something other than an right guaranteed to us by the Constitution. Imho it looks dishonest.
That's just my take.
southpark@reddit
Not taking either side but want to point out that at this point in time guns are more highly regulated than e-bikes are and that some of those e-bikes are way more powerful than a 50cc scooter and come close to being as powerful as a 250cc moped which requires a license and is liable against a lot of other regulatory requirements for safety including traffic laws.
So maybe a ban is overboard, but it’s high time some regulation gets considered. People (and children) are getting seriously injured and killed left and right on these things..
SadisticPawz@reddit
"left and right" and its literally a handful of cases vs thousands of car or gun deaths
southpark@reddit
Handful of cases of people being injured? It’s over 20k a year in the US alone and the number is growing rapidly as e-bike sales are accelerating. And the actual ratio to car injuries is 1:10 currently with 1.2 e-bike injuries per 1000 riders compared to 11.6 injuries per 1000 for cars. So while e-bikes are still safer than cars, it’s not an insignificant number.
SadisticPawz@reddit
The 1:10 ratio is per 1000 ER visits. The 11.6 figure is the ER visit rate per 1000 people per year for motor vehicle injuries. Not a direct comparison.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
For real. I carry but I also modify bikes to be able to go 45mph while still looking like a thick bike. The entire point of me going out on tides it to be able to ride for 50 miles, up to 50mph, and ride on road/off-road/greenbelts/sidewalks/parking lots/anywhere I want because I'm exploring. I'm not going to care about someone getting upset about a grown adult being safe and riding an electric bike in some field or through a neighborhood at respectful speeds. I don't wheelie, I give pedestrians the right of way, I don't zoom thru crowds or last people, I literally just go exploring in the city and suburbs because it's fun and I can.
Considering America didn't even last 250 years and we are in a civil war that maga started, why should I care about such trivial things when I have my malls being shot up, leaders assassinated, domestic terrorists threatening me with death just because they don't like my shirt or I'm not Christian, etc.
Throwawaydontgoaway8@reddit
“Respectful speeds” and “50mph on sidewalks and parking lots” …ok
WarcraftTurok@reddit
50 mph is only for roads that have a 50mph speed limit, just because you can't understand that I go slow on greenbelt and sidewalks but raise to the proper speed when I get on a road isn't my fault.
Learn to read
Throwawaydontgoaway8@reddit
I don’t believe you. Read that.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
K, why should I care if you believe me or no. I'm still going to keep riding my custom built bike that switches to 48v low speed for greenbelts and 72v higher speed for everything else.
Have fun making yourself angry over checks notes whatever inconsiderate idiots are doing.
tappertock@reddit
Sorry for the noob question, but why do you need to switch voltage to do that?
WarcraftTurok@reddit
The way I have one of my bikes set up is that it's running both 48v and 72v batteries, the 48v isn't as strong as the 72v so it's perfect for low speed but decent range rides. So when I get onto a greenbelt and don't want to be going 40mph I'll switch to 48v and save my 72v energy for when I want that speed again. A little odd I know but hey, it's a bike I built for $1700 and is outperforming the $3300 Aniioki bike I got.
Throwawaydontgoaway8@reddit
👍🏻
Realtrain@reddit
We really need a subreddit that excludes e-motorcycles.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
I would have assumed this was a copypasta I'm out of the loop on if it weren't for the downvotes.
Realtrain@reddit
I think it's going to be a copypasta now lol
killdyl@reddit
“Look, I should be able to carry a loaded bazooka around because I’m respectful. I don’t point it at anyone, I don’t spin it on my finger, I don’t toss it in the air and catch it. I might need it, and I’m allowed to do it”
WarcraftTurok@reddit
Saying I should be able to stroll peacefully on sidewalks yet maintain speed in the street isn't the odd take you think it is. But go off queen
No_Home_708@reddit
Orange man bad therefore I deserve to be a jerk to everyone. Ok.
WarcraftTurok@reddit
You're weird
0llie0llie@reddit
LMAO this is fantastic
YobaiYamete@reddit
I am so sick of people who are out of touch making laws that make no sense, trying to react to extreme fringe situations
LexLex07@reddit
They just doing their job
/s
Subject_Finger_9876@reddit
God damn Reddit is retarded.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Right?
Warm_Flamingo_2438@reddit
To be fair, Fresno State said they would provide dedicated storage for e-bikes and motorized scooters around the campus parameter. They just don’t want folks riding them through campus.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
thats good, at least, I had not heard that part..
Veggyhed@reddit
I'm not a fan of the e-motos but that's because of the way I have seen people ride them (or I should say, the majority of people ride them).
Even though I'm not the biggest fan of that style of bike and I ride an e-bike (750 W class 2), I have to admit that all cars can exceed the speed limit and there are repercussions for exceeding the speed limit. All these regulations came down because of abuse of e-motos and e-bikes. To the public there seems to be no difference between an e-moto and an e-bike
Particular_Box_3598@reddit
Yeah this is my take on it. You don't see anyone making laws governing vehicles to 70mph. The problem isn't the amount of power a bike has or it's top speed, it's the individuals riding them irresponsibly. The behavior should be punished, not the bike itself. I don't care if it's an emoto or what class it is as long as it's ridden responsibly in appropriate places. Eg under 30 in bike lanes (I think 20ish is better), pedestrian speeds on sidewalks, etc.
BoringBob84@reddit
That is a false equivalency. Cars are not allowed on non-motorized infrastructure. Ebikes are. Because of that, ebikes should perform like bicycles; not like motorcycles.
Particular_Box_3598@reddit
That's what I said 😂. It's more important that ebikes go bicycle speeds in bicycle lanes/paths. The absolute top speed possible on the bike is not relevant if people are going bicycle speeds in the bike lanes, pedestrian speeds on sidewalks, etc.
Also, acoustic bikes don't have anything limiting their top speed, so is that something we should make a law for? I don't think so.
BoringBob84@reddit
Placing limits on the machines reduces the amount of damage that irresponsible riders can do without significantly affecting responsible riders. It also makes the laws easier to enforce.
That is another false equivalency. Very few people have the experience, strength, and stamina to maintain a pace of 20-28 MPH on a standard bicycle. Anyone can do that on an ebike with no effort or experience.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Limits DO affect responsible riders by massively reducing the vehicles practicality and simultaneously benefitting the auto lobby and the death of ebikes. Irresponsible riders are NOT going to stick to the limits.
Cyclists maintain 20mph just fine.
BoringBob84@reddit
20 MPH and 750 Watts are far more speed and power than most bicyclists have. These are very generous limits for a bicycle. The problem for responsible riders is not the limits, but it is irresponsible riders who want the privilege of a bicycle and the performance of a motorcycle without the responsibilities of a motorcycle. These selfish people are why more bans are coming for all riders.
Maybe you forgot to check the facts before making an easily-verifiable claim. Average bicycle speeds are between 10 and 18 MPH. Beyond that are elite athletes.
Source: BikeStreak - Average Bike Speed: How Fast Does The Average Person Ride A Bike?
SadisticPawz@reddit
Anyone who rides CONSISTENTLY can easily maintain 30kmh. I know I did. Bursting up to 1000w for a few seconds isnt that hard.
The limits are a problem when they're eradicating a class of vehicle. Even the amount of irresponsible riders is small compared to the size of the ourage its generating, with the auto lobby taking advantage of it. The power of a cyclist doesnt even really matter when the future of mobility is in question.
BoringBob84@reddit
I cited the facts. They are more credible than the opinion of a random account on the internet with an obvious bias to confirm.
SadisticPawz@reddit
lolwut @ buzzword Nice of you to convert my lived experience into = opinion. As if your source invalidates what I've literally seen and experienced myself. Appeal to authority, dare I say.
BoringBob84@reddit
Micro-mobility is "crippled" because teenage boys cannot legally ride motorcycles carelessly on non-motorized infrastructure. /sarcasm
SadisticPawz@reddit
Thats not the only thing you're pushing for.
BoringBob84@reddit
Apparently, you believe that you know better than me what I am "pushing for." The hubris on social media can be so profound that it is amusing.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Yes.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Yeah cause infrastructure is either for SUV's which are dangerous for light weight vehicles or built to be dangerous for light vehicles properly used as alternatives to full cars and that's the only options.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Riding irresponsibly because no fair infrastructure which doesn't prioritize ultra heavy death machines has been built** but yeah it's not just to do with regulation
Realtrain@reddit
But the repercussions relate to your license to operate a car, which 99% of us can agree would not be an ideal system for e-bike users.
Veggyhed@reddit
You do have a point. There are cities we're they are impounding bikes
TextKey2981@reddit
The 3000w guys ruined it for everyone. Hard to argue against bans when people are doing 50mph on a bike path
terraherts@reddit
Stop giving politicians a pass for writing shit laws. Real problems don't justify shit-tier legislation like what happened in NJ.
Those were already illegal, and cannot be used to justify new laws unless those new laws actively aide enforcement in some way.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
It doesn't matter that they were already illegal because prior to recent developments it was not possible. Now that we have E-Motos and close to identical class 2's tearing up our paths and streets and very much getting kids killed, legislators are forced to respond. If we in the bike world don't get in front of this E-Bikes are toast. We have to embrace a reasonable compromise or E-bikes will be banned everywhere.
terraherts@reddit
Class 2 has identical power and speed restrictions as a class 1. Things like Surrons are many time the power level of any class of ebike, and usually double the speed of a class 1/2.
Conflating these is extremely disingenuous.
Horseshit. They're doing this because they see a chance to screw over cyclists. If this was really about child safety then it should be limited to things like age restrictions that have broader support, and even then it rings a bit hollow when most of them are doing fuck all to address how much more dangerous modern cars are to children.
We already did, that's what the three class system is. I'm more than a little tired of this shit where people present bad faith arguments and lie/mislead about the current legal status of bikes.
If you want to ban a shit ton of legal ebikes because you subjectively think they don't count, have the integrity to come out and say so honestly.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
You do realize the vast majority of the developed world doesnt designate anything with a throttle a bicycle, right?
Requiring throttled bikes to be regulated like gas powered scooters is not a hot take. It’s pretty normal outside of the US.
terraherts@reddit
That's not an argument by itself though, and regardless still doesn't justify your repeated attempts to conflate legal class 2 ebikes with dramatically more powerful e-dirtbikes.
Gas powered scooters and mopeds were already regulated nearly out of existence in the US, the last thing we need is to repeat that mistake a second time.
The US in general has significantly worse cycling infrastructure than many other parts of the world like the EU. We have larger, higher speed intersections and few traffic circles, faster wider roads that encourage speeding, higher speed limits within cities, unprotected bike lanes that are often just glorified shoulders/gutters, etc. It's a big part of why the three class system set the base speed at 20mph instead of 15.
The most reckless moron on an ebike is less of a threat to other people than a mildly distracted driver, and it's an objective fact that pedestrian/cyclist deaths are way up due to how much less safe modern cars are in the US.
And the more viable alternatives to cars you provide, the more you can hold bad drivers accountable.
Instead of fucking over regular people because you have an irrational hatred of throttles, what we should be doing is opening the door to regulating e-mopeds properly, i.e. things in the 30-40mph range that aren't powerful enough for highway speeds but fast enough to be used safely on actual roads rather than needing to use mixed infrastructure like ebikes.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
Too many words. Can you give the cliffs notes?
terraherts@reddit
That is the short version. If you're going to spout nonsense, don't be surprised when people push back.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
I’ve got no problem with pushback. But I’ve got a life to live. No time to novellas
weregeek@reddit
The reasonable compromise is to lobby for local enforcement of existing laws. That they are already illegal, but continue to be lumped in with stuff that is legal is THE problem.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
That’s not feasible. Police budgets are stretched thin and at the end of the day most voters don’t care about the nuanced distinctions between class 2s and E-Motos. You have to consider solutions that will happen in the real world. What should happen and what will happen are rarely the same thing.
weregeek@reddit
Which law enforcement agents do you expect to enforce a law that criminalizes even more bikes?
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
The ban gets them out of the marketplace. They will die from attrition. I don’t expect much from cops.
Realtrain@reddit
The problem is public perception. More and more people thing that "ebikes" are 50mph emotos. And frankly, this subreddit doesn't help.
terraherts@reddit
Public perception is wrong about a lot of things, again real problems don't justify incredibly bad laws.
Nearly every post about e-dirtbikes here, especially using them illegally, gets heavily downvoted.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
im really surprised about the number of people that seemed to be just fine with legal ebikes started to get banned in a group called r/ebikes
SadisticPawz@reddit
Theres nothing wrong with 50mph on a dead path at 3am. While slowing for hazards such as peds, driveways and blind corners. Again, its a matter of riding responsibly.
CatDadof2@reddit
I’m not against them. What I am against is people not using common sense and using commonly known safety practices when operating them. If you’re going to go 50mph, use the road and keep plenty of space between you and the car ahead of you. Be aware of your surroundings. The bikes should be required to have lights, turning signals, mirrors, etc. I’d be completely fine with a requirement of taking a special class or being required to have a special license to operate them on the road. I’m all for safety enforcement. I’m also fine with an insurance requirement. That way, if something does happen, everyone is covered. E-bike and motorcycle insurance is a lot cheaper than car insurance.
NeighborhoodBest2944@reddit
"E-bike and motorcycle insurance is a lot cheaper than car insurance."
State Farm: Really now?
CatDadof2@reddit
I looked into State Farm. They gave me the most expensive quote. They were talking to me as if it was a great deal. I chuckled and said thank you but no thank you. I have the protect plan with Project 529, a Kryptonite u-lock that has the anti-theft guarantee, and then liability insurance through Sundays for $15. In total, $26 per month. I know all of that may be overkill but with my commute to work and then $10 per month for my own assigned spot in a parking garage that’s specifically for bikes (and temperature controlled if I recall correctly), the amount of money I’ll end up saving is enormous. My car insurance alone is $75 with Progressive for full coverage. In Michigan, that’s a great deal but that’s just insurance. That doesn’t include gas, maintenance, etc. Maintenance on an e-bike is a lot cheaper, especially since I know how to do it on my own. I just have to buy the parts and that’s it. Effective August 1st, my work commute will be 7.2 miles one way. The entire route has a bike lane. It’s perfect for the summer. With gas prices skyrocketing like they are, I’m very fortunate to have this setup.
The county I live in has 3 registries for bikes. One of them is through my employer. I’m definitely covered if something happens to me, my bike, or someone else.
Sea-Seaweed1701@reddit
It's brake... er, nm
Fraternal_Antipathy@reddit
This is why I squawked when California outlawed, like, everything else. Outlawing the simple possession of things - ANY things - because they can be misused is stupid. California has quintupled down on doing so for decades. Slugs and tokens, marijuana and paraphernalia, various sorts of knives, hedgehogs, fishing nets, flavored tobacco products, throwing stars, gerbils...
Acceptable-Matter774@reddit
I agree that e bike regs have gone too far. BUT I don’t think it’s gun owners who are the main group pushing it. I own e-bikes and guns. E-bike owners and gun owners are very similar: both activities are being over regulated because a few idiots do dangerous things and know-nothings over-react.
Typically everyone seriously involved in an activity understands the true risk-reward and gets offended when those who do not know what they are talking about casually over-burden something that matters, seeing only the few bad apples.
Both groups also have “Fudds” who say “I own a pedal bike/bolt-action rifle I never use and I support banning scary dangerous e-bike/semi-automatics I don’t own nor understand.”
It is your busybody/HOA types who like going to local government to complain combined with ambitious small politicians who are always seeking a way to pass another law in hopes of getting noticed. They typically both have too much time on their hands and exist by getting a check every month unrelated to actual work.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Every single trumper i know HATE ebikers…. The reason ebikers are easy target is because just about everyone hates them for different reasons..
Dook23@reddit
Why point this direction when CA is for sure not a “Trump” state? Lawmakers in general, not just in CA, are often clueless about e-bikes vs emotos and such and just make knee jerk reactions without any knowledge of the situations.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
it was directly related to the guy I was replying to and not a solo comment.
Dook23@reddit
Ok, sure, but the person you replied to didn’t bring up CA or Trump. You threw it in there yourself.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Im sorry you think that.. did it trigger you?
Alexander_Granite@reddit
It seems to be that most people see the bike as a problem, and not the person operating it.
I’m in CA, in a conservative city, and our city council and police don’t like it. We have KIDS doing dumb stuff on their bikes. I’m good with keeping the bikes out of kid’s hands, but adults shouldn’t be banned from riding them
Active_Scallion_5322@reddit
2A people have been saying this for years
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
I've heard and seen discussion about this issue (mainly concerning California and New Jersey). I do believe there is an over-reaction in effect. And I have noticed that every negative incident involving ebikes, emotos, etc. is brought into the limelight.
I also think the manufacturers are partly to blame. They actively market non-street-legal vehicles to minors. And we all know teens especially are very susceptible to advertising propaganda.
Also keep in mind that, in some cases, the banning is not really due to negligent riding, but because of fear about battery fires or explosions that might be dangerous. That may be the case for your campus.
wpg_Coyote@reddit
I don’t think the manufacturers go out of their way to market specifically to them so much as those are the ages of people starting to enjoy these hobbies and you have parents with more money than common sense.
The real pusher is YouTube, honestly. The followings of Surronster and other channels like that ones are mostly kids of that age group, and they’re the ones sharing themselves doing wheelies etc on the road. Not the manufacturers.
AdBoring4472@reddit
Out of country manufacturers 100% focus marketing of illegal off road vehicles to children. All they care about is the sale, because they know there is no import enforcement, NHTSA enforcement of the marketing or legal jurisdiction over them. This is also why we see products from these companies starting fires far more often. Meanwhile, most US-based companies within the legal system, comply, or get forced to (like super 76 and others). It is just as much of a manufacturer problem as it is a people problem.
wpg_Coyote@reddit
And you’ve based these statements on what facts? The manufacturer is always trying to move units, foreign or domestic. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Surron, Talaria or a new player… they are advertising their product. But when YouTubers pick up that ball and run with it by stunt riding, that’s a people problem. There are domestic manufacturers who are gyros & software to allow kids to do wheelies without any skill… exactly what we need, a wave more unskilled riders doing wheelies on streets.. “this is why we can’t have nice things”. Don’t try to prop them up as if they’re doing the right thing and it’s evil out of country manufacturers killing things.
AdBoring4472@reddit
Both can be true.
Where do you think those YouTubers are getting the products they "review" and the monetary support to produce garbage as their full time jobs? You can also see the marketing images at online DTC sites showing kids well under 16 riding riding "capable of 35mph" "class 2/3 ebikes".
These companies know exactly what they are doing. They can't sell an ebike that goes faster than 25km/h in their own country to adults, but it is ok to sell 50mph "ebikes" to kids in the US?
FISH_ON_for_life@reddit
That’s on the parents 100%. Can’t blame the companies or the You tubers. Parents need to take fucking responsibility for their damn kids again.
wpg_Coyote@reddit
But they’re not limited to 25km/h in the US, nor are US domestic manufacturers. Why wouldn’t they sell their product here if they’re legally allowed to?
And yes, they compensate the YouTuber with a free bike or $$… and they make money off of views and ads. The YouTuber has the incentive to do crazy shit for more views. I’m not suggesting the crazy shit didn’t get the person the free bike, but the person did that. Not the manufacturer. The manufacturer just put their bike in a place lots of eyes go… like ANY OTHER COMPANY.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
These are 100% not marketed to children 😂 wtf are you talking about. What kid do you know that has 7k to spend on a dirtbike? Also what does a shitty battery have to do with marketing to kids? Did they make them Fortnite themed and I didn’t notice?
wpg_Coyote@reddit
With his kind of shit reasoning, then Ferrari was marketing to kids when I wanted a Ferrari F355 that was $150k at the time 😂… something being cool doesn’t mean it’s being marketed to me. It means I liked something that was cool. Even if a kid thinks these are cool, it still requires dumbass parents to spend $7k to make that happen. People type first and think second… or never.
SadisticPawz@reddit
I've never seen them do any advertising whatsoever. It's always just influencers.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
I do agree with your statement about youtube. Teens are on that site constantly and very much influenced by it.
ApatheticSkyentist@reddit
This exact same thing happened to consumer drones a few years ago.
The technology and availability rapidly outpaced the legal framework and societal adoption. As a result drones were regulated with a heavy hand. Some of it is appropriate and some it is due to ignorant lawmakers and or problem users forcing issue.
The term "this is why we can't have nice things" comes to mind when I see 14 year olds going 30+mph down my residential street. I want kids outside having fun. Just don't be stupid.
EvilPencil@reddit
This. Legislative responses happen after the community fails to police itself. It’s hard to though, since there’s nothing you and I could do when you say “Stop being an idiot!” to the surron kiddies and they stick out their tongue at you and speed away.
wpg_Coyote@reddit
While doing a wheelie… but yeah lol 🤦🏻♂️
The_walking_man_@reddit
To add on to the campus concern, it really is a massive safety issue for pedestrians. Normal bike riders can be a huge issue and they’ll ignore the rules of where they’re allowed to ride on campuses and where they need to be off the bike and walking it.
I’ve been clipped by bike riders and those on electric standing scooters.
I’m perfectly fine with saying no e-bikes on campus because of how shitty and dangerous students can be without something motorized. Add on a motor and they’re looking for injuries to happen.
stormdelta@reddit
The issue is that the alternative is you push way more people back into cars, which are multiple orders of magnitude more dangerous especially in the hands of inexperienced users like college kids.
You're basically asking for a cure worse than the disease.
Used_Championship_24@reddit
They (CSUF) are just pandering to a few that don’t believe E bicycles are a viable form of Transportation. They claim too many pedestrians have been hurt on campus. I think our city is just overreacting to the little twits causing trouble in traffic. E bicycles not E motos are great way to get around town. We just rode 6 miles round trip to the dog park.
TourBackground4232@reddit
Unfortunately those "idiots with 3000 watt bikes" have pretty well fucked things up for everybody. California has three or four different bills moving through the legislature right now some are very drastic others just reaffirm what we all know; there's three classes of e-bikes and anything beyond 28 mph is classified as motor vehicle. I'm fine with that. But that's only if they stop there.
Familiar9709@reddit
Not true. In Europe an ebike cannot have more than 250 watts, if you have more, you're braking the law.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
750 in US. I think 500 is probably the number that makes the most sense to operate without a license/registration..
Dook23@reddit
While I agree with your original post there is no specific U.S. law about power. It’s based on states and even smaller areas like counties. There are actually some areas where the power rating is like 1000w. I believe Oregon is one, for example.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
thanks, Dwight..
Familiar9709@reddit
Exactly, so if you have an 800w ebike in the US your ebike is breaking the law
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Yep
SadisticPawz@reddit
No, theres also a 1000w mini moped class which is a good thing.
Familiar9709@reddit
is that an ebike? examples?
nobullshitebrewing@reddit
take the bikes and neither will break that law (as easy)
4Looper@reddit
If your unregulated ebike's battery catches fire and burns up my apartment where does my freedom fit into your picture? If some idiot in a 3000 watt ebike hits me on a bike path and they're broke and can't pay damages where does my freedom come into play? Rules an regulations aren't authoritarian because freedom goes two ways. It's the same with gun control legislation - except that is more complicated because it's in the constitution. Ebikes on the other hand are not and can and should be heavily regulated because you can do a lot of hard to other people with them. We all warned the people posting in this sub about their e-moto's but you people didn't listen.
Dook23@reddit
He literally wrote he wasn’t referring to 3000w motorized vehicles but you jumped on his case anyway. Nor did he mention unregulated bikes. Maybe before you try to shit on someone you actually use some reading comprehension prior to doing it.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
You read the subject line and the last line of my post… and skipped everything else that lined right up with and fully agreed with everything you just wrote..
danamitchellhurt@reddit
Cars can travel upwards of 160mph and killed an estimated 3500 people in CA in 2025 (not including pollution-related deaths), but aren't banned. Class 3 e-bikes can travel 28mph on paper (less in reality) and killed 6 people in CA in 2025, but are being targeted with e-motos for bans.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
its wild how backwards society is sometimes..
camasonian@reddit
Most of the problematic e-bikes are not bikes at all. the are e-motorcycles.
We do need sensible regulations that define e-bikes and e-motorcycles separately. Both types of vehicles should be legal. However, e-bikes with limited speed/power should be allowed to use bike lanes and bike paths same as regular bikes. Whereas e-motorcycles should be treated like motorcycles and regulated like motorcycles so same licensing and access requirements as for a Harley or Ninja.
weregeek@reddit
We very much have those laws today. What we need is enforcement of existing laws.
SadisticPawz@reddit
That is- enforcement of actual troublemakers and kids. Not people who are commuting.
weregeek@reddit
If what the commuter is operating is a legally a motorcycle and it does have a plate (or it's being operated on bicycle infrastructure) enforcement action is warranted. Well behaved riders will obviously draw less attention that most 12 year olds, but that doesn't mean that everyone operating in an illegal but polite manner should get a pass.
SadisticPawz@reddit
It's not about how much attention they attract or how legal it is, but the actual genuine danger that everyone fearmongers about. And we both know where the real danger is and who the enforcement should focus on. Harassing commuters is not it.
snoogins355@reddit
It's like mario kart in the Boston metro
Just-Smart-Enough@reddit
Meanwhile, in Japan:
camasonian@reddit
And here in the US!
NeighborhoodBest2944@reddit
Since when are laws enforced?
camasonian@reddit
No, actually we don't.
Few if any e-motorcycles sold today even have VIN numbers so they are impossible to legally license as motorcycles. There are high-end e-motorcycles that are street legal with VINs that can be licensed. But your typical teen is not running around on a Livewire One: https://www.livewire.com/livewire-one-electric-motorcycle
So most e-motorcycles including all the ones kids are riding fall into a current regulatory black hole.
TwoDudesOnACamel@reddit
They fall into exactly the same place as a gas powered dirt bike. Not street legal. Ride them all you want on private property or out in the woods. Now, I do absolutely think there should be a way to license them as a moped or something in between a full on motorcycle and a bicycle. But they should still require licensing. Probably insurance too.
weregeek@reddit
Lack of VIN, lights, and a horn do not make a two wheeled vehicle without a speed limiter or pedals, or a compliant drive train, not a motorcycle. An unregistered motorcycle, no matter the reason for the lack of registration is still an unregistered motor vehicle, and a rider without a motorcycle endorsement is still an an unlicensed operator. All of those violations come with enforceable penalties, as do things like child endangerment.
While I agree that laws regarding advertisement and importation of off-road only electric motorcycles probably ought to exist, those same motorcycles and their operators don't fall into some legal grey area when a 13 year old rides one on the street, the bike trail, or the sidewalk.
camasonian@reddit
I guess we are talking past each other or saying the same thing.
The problem isn't legal e-bikes.
The problem is a huge and growing number of illegal or non street legal e-motorcycles that no state is making an effort to regulate under existing regulations.
Calls for NEW regulations of e-bikes are misguided and completely miss the point. We don't need new regulation of e-bikes. We need to start enforcing existing regulations on illegal street e-motorcycles.
Michael-Brady-99@reddit
The illegal e-motorcycles are not street legal or registered so I don’t see why we need another law for police to stop and impound said e-bikes when used on public roads, paths, etc.
weregeek@reddit
We certainly seem to agree.
Robustusmaximus@reddit
It gets better. I have a moto endorsement and insurance for an Ultra Bee. My UB is the road variant with mirrors, light, blinkers front and back and a plate holder. The 18 number VIN is etched into the frame and I can't seem to get it registered in FL. You all don't hate government enough.
E-bikes and e-motos... we all seem to be f'kd by Karens and inefficient government.
If a Vespa or other scooter can get tagged why not these?
And yes e-bikes shouldn't be treated like e-motos but let's not forget the idiocy of SF bay area rules that limit mountain bikes to 15 mph on some bike only trails. Not e-mtbs just MTBs.
First a war on 2 strokes. Then a war on ICE vehicles. We try to use electric vehicles and get stuffed.
Temporary-Film-7374@reddit
lack of VIN/lights/horn/mirrors (the latter 3 can all be resolved) means that they can't be registered in most places, which makes being legal impossible. Lots of people at that point figure why even try to be reasonable.
I at least have a CA moped plate on my Talaria, not gonna claim it's entirely valid but it's better than nothing. I have a motorcycle license and insurance on it as well.
weregeek@reddit
It seems as though you're at least some part of the solution. I don't see many of the people (most of whom are children) riding illegal electric motorcycles lobbying to make them legal or going to any lengths to make their own motorcycles legal. I don't have any problem with states finding ways to stamp and register electric motorcycles.
Temporary-Film-7374@reddit
I have a VIN on it (from the factory), and an MSO, CA refuses to allow it to be registered as either a dirtbike or a street legal bike, so I can't even ride it at OHV parks.
BrianDerm@reddit
It’s not a black hole. It’s not a gray area. Vehicles that are not Class 1, 2, or 3 are illegal for road use everywhere in the US, same as a 4 wheel go kart is in comparison to a car.
camasonian@reddit
I think the problem is that in many states and jurisdictions there is no legal classification of e-bikes into Class 1, 2, and 3. Basically all e-bikes are in a gray area. So we actually need to define what e-bikes are legal and where they are legal to ride, which e-motorcycles are legal and legal to ride and license as motorcycles. And everything else is prohibited from streets, highways, and bike paths. Fourteen states don't use the industry-standard Class 1, 2, and 3 regulatory system and have a hodge podge of regulations or basically none at all.
snoogins355@reddit
Most of the people on those e-motos are just riding with traffic. A few are morons who ruin it for everyone
BoringBob84@reddit
No it isn't. Statistics show that unlicensed riders are three times more likely to get into a collision as are licensed motorcyclists.
Temporary-Film-7374@reddit
what does the vehicle being registered have to do with whether or not the rider is licensed?
I've had a motorcycle license for half my life, I've raced (on track), I've ridden overseas, but I won't claim the registration on my Talaria is perfect.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
How did you get the plate?
BoringBob84@reddit
I said, "unlicensed riders." The statistics imply that licensed riders are much safer. I assume that is because, to get a motorcycle license, a rider must be of age and they have to demonstrate written and riding proficiency. That means they have to study and practice. Also, to keep that license, they must maintain a relatively clean driving record.
Regarding the registration on the motorcycle, I think that also contributes to safety. A vehicle must meet safety standards to get registered. And a license plate makes it easier for police officers to identify people who are breaking the law.
snoogins355@reddit
I meant safer than riding 20 mph next cars going 35 mph.
I would like to see your source on that info.
BoringBob84@reddit
It is from the book, "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough, Chapter 1 "Risk."
snoogins355@reddit
Thank you
BoringBob84@reddit
You bring up a good point. In my experience, motorists do not expect bicycles to be traveling at high speeds (i.e., 25 MPH or more), and they pull out in front of me more often. Also, I don't feel like bicycle brakes, frame, wheels, and suspension are safe at high speeds.
Thus, I feel safer on the roads on my ebike at Class 1 speeds (i.e., 20 MPH). Am I really safer? I don't know. And other ebikes may have heavy duty frames and wheels.
However, to keep up with cars at 35 MPH, I ride my motorcycle.
snoogins355@reddit
To each their own. I'm tired of gas reliance and even car ownership
BoringBob84@reddit
We agree on that!
hezuschristos@reddit
Not sure you are making the argument you think you are. E-motos exist and are already regulated. You can buy an electric motorcycle and get licensed and insured etc. like everyone else. You can also buy an e-dirtbike and go hit the trails or track.
What people seem to want is to be able to buy an e-dirtbike (not road legal) and have n license or insurance and just be allowed to ride in traffic. Obviously a really dumb take I see repeated here all the time “it’s safer to keep up with traffic!” Well yes it is, get yourself a motorcycle and a license and have at it.
camasonian@reddit
No you cannot.
Most of the e-motos you see kids riding around on are cheap unregulated vehicles without VIN numbers. And without a VIN number, no state DMW can register it and no insurance company can insure it.
Yes there are high end e-motorcycles that are street legal. But your typical 13 year old is not riding around the suburbs on a Livewire One: https://www.livewire.com/livewire-one-electric-motorcycle
hezuschristos@reddit
Please re-read my comment. As I said, you cannot buy one of the e-dirtbikes and insure it. They wouldn’t be road legal even if they had a VIN. I believe you and I agree.
camasonian@reddit
Yes, we agree that most of the e-motos that kids are riding around these days are NEITHER:
(A) Class 1, 2, or 3 e-bikes, nor
(B) street-legal e-motorcycles.
They fall into a regulatory black hole. And that is the source of 98% of the public problem with what the public thinks are "e-bkes"
hezuschristos@reddit
I don’t know that they fall into a black hole, they are an off road vehicle. Same as a dirt-bike, atv, side by side, etc. Many people don’t register these things either, although that varies place to place. It’s actually pretty black and white most places, it either fits into the class 1/2/3 system, the road legal definition, or it’s an off road vehicle.
I wouldn’t say they cause 98% of problems, I do think a lot of people complain about any ebike, I gets looks in my class 2 all the time and it’s very obviously a cruiser with 20” wheels. But yes the dirtbikes are the ones that cause the most dramatic incidents for sure.
snoogins355@reddit
Why get an iPhone? We have rotary telephones! And they always have reception!
Maybe it's better tech and I still want to pedal?
What's needed is education and cultural change, along with better bike infrastructure and enforcement.
You can regulate all day and license and insure, but you will not get that cunt in a Lambo to go the speed limit in a school zone without speed bumps, road design, cops to give him a ticket and a culture of giving a shit about kids safety. Some states like MA are moving towards kid safety on e-bikes while NJ is going full crazy
hezuschristos@reddit
Again, I think you’re not making the point you are trying to.
Actual e-bikes certainly bring about the need for a shift in infrastructure and attitude. Bike infrastructure needs to expand, and attitudes towards it also need to change. Unfortunately that is likely to be very slow.
Again though, the argument that operating a vehicle that is capable of road speeds being safer, while correct does not make the case for e-bikes being faster. If you want to ride with the flow of traffic at traffic speed then you have a motor vehicle. You need a license etc. that really isn’t up for debate and every time someone tries to make the argument you undermine the whole argument to improve bike infrastructure that would actually help e-bikes.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
E-Moto's and a lightly modded class 2 are basically the same thing. I think we have to sacrifice class 2's to save class 1's and 3's. If we remove throttles we remove any confusion the public may have and maybe we can continue the transportation revolution that is emerging.
rshetts1@reddit
That's great if you are not an older or disabled person who needs the throttle as a safety measure. There are a whole lot of older riders who would be seriously affected by that. I am 69 with rheumatoid arthritis. I use pedal assist almost the entire time I ride but there are occasions where I find the throttle very useful. One example is that I find it safer and faster to use the throttle when crossing intersections. And If my RA happens to flare up, I want the throttle so I can safely ride home. I follow the laws of the road and trails. I have plenty of safety equipment for my rides. I respect the right of way of pedestrians and bicycles. I should not be punished because people can not follow the laws that are in place. Instead of making new laws and restrictions maybe they need to start enforcing the ones on the books. The issues are not with class 2 e-bikes. They are with people riding over powered electric vehicles irresponsibly and in most cases those are not even classified as e-bikes. Killing class 2 will not solve the problem.
Powerful-Ice-4579@reddit
Applause
GildaSexy950@reddit
Broad restrictions tend to hit the responsible riders first because they’re the easiest group to regulate, even though they’re usually not the source of the problem.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
I feel for you. I absolutely see where you are coming from. But, we have to do something or all E-Bikes will be banned. I’m all ears if you have a better idea that has a chance of working.
Enforcement isn’t going to happen. Law enforcement isn’t going to line bike paths and bike lanes with cops who can tell an offending E-Bike from and E-moto and a legal E-Bike. What will happen is blanket bans. That’s far easier to enforce and will get support from most voters.
stormdelta@reddit
Ridiculous and ignorant takes like this are part of the problem.
A class 2 has literally the same restrictions as a class 1, the only difference is having a throttle. They still go 20mph, they're still limited to 750W peak.
If you "mod" one to go faster, then it's no longer a legal class 2, by definition, and you can mod anything to be illegal including cars, that doesn't change what the law states. And several states even forbid such modifications, though I have some qualms about that due to intersection with right-to-repair principles.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
You can mod a class 2 to exceed 20mph quite easily. The non riding public doesn’t see the difference between legal and not legal class 2s and E-Motos nor do they care. You have to forget nuanced distinctions that are irrelevant to law makers and law enforcement. They want to ban or heavily restrict E-Bikes because It’s cheaper and easier than specific targeted enforcement. We either come up with something that placates them or we lose all access.
Class 2s more often than not are just speed regulated E-Motos with useless pedals. If we lose those to save the rest of the E-Bike world it’s a good play overall.
stormdelta@reddit
So much of this is wrong.
Sensor type has nothing to do with class, and I don't know why you think it does.
What are you talking about? It's just a more explicit control signal sent to the motor. What problematic "mods" are you talking about that a throttle somehow enables?
No, that's you. Most of the public when they complain about ebikes are generally talking about shit like Surrons that are electric dirtbikes. I doubt most of the public could even tell you the difference between a class 1 and 2.
If the problem is a lack of enforcement, how do you imagine banning more bikes is going to magically change that? All you'd be doing is fucking over normal people on legal ebikes, while the people on illegal dirtbikes will just continue riding them.
In other words, it has nothing to do with optics or safety, you just hate throttles. At least you're finally being honest about wanting to ban legal bikes.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
Selective thoughtful enforcement isn’t going to happen. That is a pipe dream. There is no money or will to do it. But there is plenty of will to write bans that remove e-bikes from the marketplace. It’s easy and lazy. And a ban allows lazy cops to seize locked bikes rather than monitor paths and roads for dangerous activity.
We don’t live in a utopia where shoulds happen. We live in a world of tight budgets, short cuts and virtue signaling. We aren’t going to get what you want. But we might be able to limit the damage.
YobaiYamete@reddit
I don't feel like class 2 are the issue either? I think my Lectric Xpeak 2 is class 2? It has a throttle but only goes 20 mph with it, but I think that makes it class 2
IMO the throttle is a game changer just for taking off alone. Being able to give it a little boost as I'm getting on has kept me from busting my butt so many times and helps making tight corners while barely moving etc, very useful
camasonian@reddit
I'm fine with killing class 2. I don't see many of them around anyway.
terraherts@reddit
A class 2 has literally the same power and speed restrictions as class 1, banning them will accomplish nothing except fuck over regular people.
Electrical_Tof@reddit
Infrastructure is designed for cars and that's the problem mostly as people with better options for faster driving wouldn't inherently be forced to drive recklessly on account of the infrastructure failing their option in favor of worse ones with better designed infrastructure.
SoftlyOpinionated@reddit
Someone I know has an e-motorcycle but keeps insisting it’s still an e-bike even though it goes way faster than what e-bikes are legally supposed to
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
The problem is that law used td disguise and they are slowly starting to treat them the same.
camasonian@reddit
Sure, but it wouldn't be complicated to do.
Existing Class 1, 2, and 3 e-bikes are considered bikes by regulation and allowed access to bike infrastructure. We could even put speed limits on bike paths and bike lanes.
Any vehicle that exceeds those limits is defined as a motorcycle and subject to the same regulations as any gas motorcycle. You wouldn't give your 12 year old the keys to a Honda 250 dirt bike and turn him loose on the highway, would you? Many e-motorcycles on the road are essentially the same thing or even more powerful.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
law enforcement is lazy.. its easier to just start banning all bikes with a battery than specific ones.. and that seems to be the direction we are headed..
Octavio_belise@reddit
Yeah, I don't think eBike bans have political alignments. For example, the crackdown first started in New York City. Can't even go faster than 15mph there. Now it seems California is following their lead.
NeighborhoodBest2944@reddit
Let's give it time to work out. But I'll say this. Any government entity that claims to be for the working poor and also ends up nixing the use of e-bikes is tone deaf and hypocritical. Limit them to 10-15mph? That is punitive.
Imagine a 30 something single parent needing to travel 5 miles to get to work and can do so with a $1,500 bike (or less). If the city bans them, a pox on their houses. It costs around 10k to own, operate, insure, and maintain even a used 25k car.
DillTicklePickle@reddit
Same thing with guns, they don't break laws either
Conscious-Salt-4836@reddit
The e-bikes on campus’s aren’t the problem. The same people who tailgate in their huge oversized pickup with their overbright headlights on high beam, drive their BMW like it’s a road race during rush hour, and put their 8 year olds on 4 wheelers that tear around the city parks and ride their e-scooters on the bike trails at 35 mph running every one off the trail are the problem.
Scared-Collection132@reddit
Hear hear!
KI6WBH@reddit
I actually had an interaction like that on the Oklahoma campus where I was just riding through legal on the street where a cop stop me but he kind of changes his tune quick when he said he was going to confiscate my bike to check if it was legal or not and I reminded him that this is a class too a pedestrian vehicle in the proper lane with 360 video recording all stock and I would gladly go to court to take the badge of a campus police officer trying to dictate rules outside of his jurisdiction on an Oakland City road.
TradeSekrat@reddit
Most if not all campus police have jurisdiction outside of campus and Oklahoma has a state law (360.17) directly saying it. So he didn't back off out of concern for jurisdiction. He odds are assumed you where a student at first and on an illegal bike.
Then on closer inspection was all nah. But this idea that campus police are somehow land locked to inside campus is one of those FOFO issues. Most if one attempts to run from a vehicle stop. Assuming, as most students do, that campus police are security guards or one campus issues only.
KI6WBH@reddit
Oakland, CA not Oklahoma
frankiek3@reddit
In the US, the driver has to be arrested for a crime for an officer to seize a vehicle, without a warrant.
Temporary-Film-7374@reddit
are you sure about that? in CA, if you get caught on an unregistered dirtbike (but don't run), odds are they'll cite and release but impound the bike. same with cars with old tags.
frankiek3@reddit
I'm not a lawyer, but summary offenses are criminal offenses. They typically don't process you at the station, but you were arrested.
Temporary-Film-7374@reddit
in that case, he'd be cited and released for driving an unregistered vehicle, and it would be impounded.
whether or not the cop was right about the law violation doesn't matter much.
frankiek3@reddit
In the original case, he would be risking his job, as he was likely wrong and outside his jurisdiction. It matters because that allows the person to sue that local government, when they normally are allowed opt out of civil suits.
CatacombsOfBaltimore@reddit
Something something guns something something piracy something something vehicles. Welcome to the age old argument. The problem is people but accountability will never be the solution unfortunately
thirtynation@reddit
Kay
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Maybe a bit, but mostly i’m still pissed.
xAPPLExJACKx@reddit
NJ is pretty strict on gun laws and now ebikes.
You're talking about California and a college in that state. Both places not known for being pro gun
I'm pretty sure if I look at all 50 states I will see a mix bag of blue and red states well being a mix bag on ebikes
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
it's wild because california is like "we need to be green!!!" ---- "not like that!!!"
xAPPLExJACKx@reddit
The only green they want is for lawyers to see for environmental
OldMany8032@reddit
Same way guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
inline-online@reddit
I bet I can easily guess so many of your political beliefs lol
BoringBob84@reddit
Sadly, this kind of hyperbole is what often passes for political discourse in the USA in recent years. When we summarily dismiss the concerns of other people and we ridicule them, then we can never build the trust that is necessary to find solutions to problems that work for most people.
I don't believe for a moment that the people that you mentioned are "idiots" or are "opposed to freedom." I think that many people have legitimate concerns about pedestrian safety and the some are just concerned about bicycles causing them inconvenience when they drive.
While I agree with OP that the rules are excessively restrictive, I also think that over-reactions are predictable when those of us who are passionate about ebikes refuse to come to the table, admit that we have problems, and make some reasonable compromises. The general public vastly outnumbers us. We laugh at them at our own peril.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
I don't think the rules are excessive at all. I think the rules are pretty good right now.. the problem we are having is that instead of enforcing he laws we are starting to see full ebike bans because ideas easier, and there arent a lot of ebikers which makes them easy targets. if you are banning someone safely using an ebike from safely using an ebike, you are absolutely opposing freedom in favor of "I dont like it"
terraherts@reddit
Don't bother trying to argue with that user. He has a long history of disingenuous hypocrisy on this subreddit, using statistics improperly, and repeatedly tries to frame throttles as unsafe while being unable to show any evidence of such.
Rawlus@reddit
what rules do you like and how would you enforce it and how would you fund the enforcement?
BoringBob84@reddit
Many electric motorcycle have ornamental pedals, which intentionally make the laws difficult to enforce.
The easiest ebike law to enforce would be, "If it has a motor, then it is not legal." I certainly don't want that, but I see it coming if ebike enthusiasts don't come to the table. u/SnuffyMcfluff said here, "I think we have to sacrifice class 2's to save class 1's and 3's." I am not sure that it needs to go that far, but if we don't propose something, we won't like what gets imposed on us.
SP3_Hybrid@reddit
I mean cars don’t speed, drivers do, but there’s a hell of a lot of BMW M types speeding so….
not_productive1@reddit
Ebikes are not in the constitution. If the right is not specifically enumerated or reasonably extrapolated from enumerated rights, IT DOESN'T EXIST. Ebikes aren't guns! They don't have second amendment protections! Other things that are not guns and are subject to regulation: cars. Food. Baby mattresses.
The way to deal with what's currently happening to ebikes is not to argue for total gun-style freedom (which, btw, isn't even really a thing, a 13 year old can't buy a gun). It is to argue for sensible regulation that keeps people safe. That means age restrictions, speed governors, safety features, and probably registration and licensing for at least some classes of bikes.
A 13-year old should not be going 40 mph on an "ebike." If your argument doesn't account for this completely reasonable position it's not going to be taken seriously.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
1: no where did I compare constitutional rights to bike rights. you didn't read my post or you can't comprehend.
2: No where did I argue in favor of not regulating bikes or guns.
Realtrain@reddit
You literally have in your comments on this post.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
That post is not comparing constitutional rights to bike rights..
nathacof@reddit
Do you participate in local politics? It's hard work. Go complain to the people who can effect change in policy. Be prepared for mountains of beuracracy.
Darc_vexiS@reddit
And that’s the problem you want talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water when its these babies are the ones riding them with ZERO riding experience not knowing rules of the road and the idiot parents who buy them the mode of transportation.
At this point age limit needs to be raise along with all e-Bikes to be licensed and registered with no exceptions.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
the max legal speed for an ebike with throttle on it in california is 20mph and the most common speed limit on bike trails is 15mph. pedal bikes can do this, should they also require a license?
Darc_vexiS@reddit
Okay but your logic is still flawed we are talking electric motor powered. For example rising accident rates and specific crash risks were major factors that compelled California lawmakers to require licenses for mopeds. It will be no different down the line for ebikes because the lack of regulation will force the state to intervene. Again from my previous statement kids not knowing basic road safety with shitty parenting does not mix well.
howtobealover@reddit
Sad. E-bikes are unregulated new technology. Unregulated capitalism is dangerous over and over this same issue happens with new technology. We let making fast money win over protecting lives and communities this same cycle of danger, shock, reactionary bans, lobby congress and make more money is like clockwork
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
ebikes, at least in California are highly regulated with overall fair and safe laws. the problem we are having is people are equating 14 year olds with 40mpg emotors with safe. legs, proper ebikes. And people would rather just get rid of all of them than enforce the law.
Rawlus@reddit
how would you go about enforcing the laws against 14 year olds on 40mph emotos and how would you fund the enforcement and obtain the personnel and equipment to do so?
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
if you make the punishment sting you will only need to set the example a few times..
Rawlus@reddit
you said they only need enforce the existing law to prevent the bad actors. which is it? new laws or existing laws?
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
like I said, existing laws. they are solid.
Rawlus@reddit
so what is the existing law and will the punishment sting?
how will you catch a 14 year old on a 50mph emoto without killing them in the process?
if this was your problem to solve, how would you solve it?
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Me have street illegal motorcycles already, which is exactly what emotos are. you enforce it the same exact way, have en electric motor doesnt matter vs. gas.
The kid (juvenile court)
Stacked violations:
The parents (knowing about it)
Knowing about it changes everything. The "knowingly" element triggers actual criminal charges, not just civil exposure:
stone_database@reddit
This is what I keep thinking when people tell me an e-bike is “illegal”, well no. Unless there’s a possession law, which I don’t think there is.
Every law I’ve read on e-bikes references their *use*, like you say that’s an action of the user not the bike.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
at cal state fresno, if you lock your ebike up on the bike rack they cut your lock and take it..
frankiek3@reddit
That's Grand Theft and vandalism. It's a public school, get the name's of everyone that had a bike stolen. Record one being stolen. The government can decide not to be sued, but people will be fired.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
welcome to the USA; United Stated of Authoritarianism .
stone_database@reddit
Agreed that’s theft.
CheshiresTARDIS@reddit
It boils down to not making money off them...
Iuslez@reddit
Both guns and eBikes are dangerous and need regulations.
There's a LOT to think about to have good rules, that make sense and reach their goal.
But both "MA FREEDOM" people are as delusional, wether they use their guns to press the trigger or the pedals.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
I think you missed the point.. guns and bikes should be regulated for safety.. the problem is people are ebikes are being ban 100% outright.. in places now... they arent regulating ebikes, they are banning them..
Iuslez@reddit
Yah, misunderstood it. the Fresno ban does not apply to adaptive drive assist eBikes and I misunderstood it for pedal assist. Didn't know it has a completely different meaning in the US. A complete ban on eBikes is stupid.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
in this case specifically people were riding thru university campuses like idiots, and instead of enforcing rules and laws, the ban them completely. you can't even walk it on campus and lock it up.. they will cut your lock and take it.
PrizeAstronaut6531@reddit
Can't wait to ride my new g-bike on the local bike path!!! It's got pedals so it must be a "bike".
Tabbbinski@reddit
This is your moment: Get an injunction against the e-bike police on campus for starters. Complaining on Reddit isn't going to get you much beyond upvotes. Work with the admin to find a solution like stickers for bona fide e-bikes vs those electric motorcycles.
AdBoring4472@reddit
I disagree with banning ebikes (and guns for that matter), but this is what happens when the government is unwilling to take the steps to actually address the real underlying problems, and citizens don't elect representatives interested in, or capable of, solving problems.
With ebikes, the e-motos and cheap ebikes (with inadequate battery design/quality) are ruining it for everybody. With guns, the inadequate mental health system (really the whole health care system) and societal glorification are the problems.
Real problems are hard to solve in ways that preserve freedom for all (users and the public good), so the default is to regulate the users in the interests of the public good. Bad regulation in the interest of the public good is always preferable to people that need to be reelected.
suboptimus_maximus@reddit
The same people are never opposed to socialism for cars, drivers and automakers, are they?
darforce@reddit
Silly argument of someone who got super high and annoyed about something
Like many things laws and rules are made to protect us from the aholes among us who infringe on our rights.
suboptimus_maximus@reddit
Government-mandated car dependency is one of the greatest of all time infringements on our rights.
Rawlus@reddit
the knee jerk broad ban is similar to previous bans of e-scooters, certain assault weapons, vapes, and so on. prohibition focused bans on the object rather than its use in certain contexts.
prohibition type legislation is politically easier. there’s no gray area. it’s much easier and less costly to enforce. its unambiguous. even the public will support broad bans initially out of frustration and emotion if they’ve been victimized by some kid on an emoto and they felt unsafe or threatened, the initial reaction is “they should be banned” before they think about the consequences or aftermath of a ban.
especially with an emerging technology like e-bikes, governments may rush to enact bans because they fear enforcement doesn’t scale well when a misuse issue begins trending and becoming rampant. jurisdictions can’t scale up to patrol bike paths, train extra officers to be present in bike paths, purchase equipment or technology…that stuff all takes time, money and often voting. but a ban can be put into effect with almost no effort or need for additional funds, technology or people.
if you want to preserve ebiking for the majority who do it safely and responsibility, you must be able to meet with government leaders, be willing to go to work with them, educate them and acknowledge that they have a specific problem they are trying to address and they need actual working solutions to address it. you have to come to the table in the spirit of solving the problem and not just in whining about the solution they propose.
does the majority of the voting public want to allocate additional tax dollars to patrol, register, monitor, defend in court the nuances of a law based on use or does the public want a silver bullet law that just gets rid of tne possibility of abuse simply by outlawing it 🤷🏻
if the attitude as an e-bike rider is just playing the victim and nkt acknowledging the abuse and danger and safety concerns, then e-bikes will go the way of drones and become regulated out of existence.
e-bikes sort of came out of nowhere during covid and have taken off in the most unregulated way possible, their use and misuse most importantly exploding in many areas across the country, combined with high visibility events like roadblocks and bridge takeovers, large gangs taking over roadways, wheelie stupid stuff to oncoming cars, people, etc. there is an extremely visible and negative image of “e-bikes” that is on the news nightly and that is what is driving law makers to overreact.
hopefully over time some sanity returns and there’s a realization that the broad category based bans are not precise enough and punish law abiding people too much and then you begin to see more legislation focused on misuse rather than merely possession. but that involves a lot of moving parts and resolving some difficult open questions (ie, if it’s registration, what to do about most bikes not having a vin or unique id number?)…
enforcing ebike laws for safe operation are very difficult to do due to the speed and mobility of the e-bikes. it’s very easy to act up when police aren’t around and act proper when you see a cop. on shared use paths like rail trails that often go through remote landscapes, it’s not easy or practical to patrol often enough and across a wide enough route or area to be able to cut down on misuse merely by police presence.
massachusetts is just drafting the first broad legislation of its kind that tries to address misuse as well as define what sort of equipment is appropriate for what sort of riding area and require training, registration licensing and in some cases insurance for certain type of emobility vehicles but just the outline of that document took a year to put together and building out the government personnel and capability to oversee and facilitate that sort of thing takes a lot of political willpower and we are nkt yet sure if it will work out or not. we live in a car-based society so outside of the ebike communitu, e-bikes are the enemy outright or something most believe society can live without. especially with kids and adults actively threatening citizens out just trying to live their lives.
Away-Reception587@reddit
But if there werent ebikes then people wouldnt be able to break laws while on ebikes
10leej@reddit
The problem is that the people aren't complying with existing laws. So their taking the only real approach that they can.
macmannmemes@reddit
Same argument for guns
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
this ban was recent at cal state fresno, and I was chatting with my trumper dad last night, and he is all over wanting to ban them for being so dangerous. I'm pro gun and pro-ebike (pro regulation on both). How is someone that is pro gun, that claims people dont kill people guns kill people, want ebikes to be banned because they are dangerous? it's wild man..
moodyism@reddit
Poor analogy
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
there was actually no analogy in this post, you just didn't read it..
rvralph803@reddit
The only thing to prevent a bad guy with an ebike is a good guy with an ebike.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
amen, a few cops on ebikes could easily help control the bad guy bikers on college campuses..
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
When the majority break the rules, often innocent people get punished with them. This is why you should speak up against those putting everyone at risk.
90% of gun owners aren't using their guns irresponsibly in public. The Bill of Rights mentions nothing about ebikes. Your analogy doesn't hold.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
Yeah, we should probably block freedom unless it's a specific thing outlined int he constitution, right?
Inciteful_Analysis@reddit
No. But you should acknowledge the meaningful distinctions I made instead of being a smart ass college student.
You have the freedom to drop out or transfer if you dont like Cal State rules. You have the freedom to blame your peers that made the rules necessary.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
I think maybe you didnt read my whole post. I never compared the freedom to ride ebikes to the freedom to own a gun.. I complained that the people who say things like "guns dont kill people people kill people" are suddenly wanting to ban ebikes because they are dangerous. Image this. Your comments regarding school making rules that harm people following laws and rules is disgusting. shameful and un-American.
Lordly_Lobster@reddit
At some point you have to regulate the hardware because the software (the person using a product) is likely to do something stupid. In the EU for example new cars are required to recognize speed limit signs and adjust speed accordingly.
The multiclass system for ebikes is too confusing. All they need to do is require a motorcycle license for anything over 750 watts at the point of sale.
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
100% it would literally just be enforcing existing laws,, but the direction we are going now is to just ban everything since its easier and lots of people dont like bike riders, and like ebike riders even more..
JazzCompose@reddit
Perhaps PEOPLE break laws when they ride (or drive) unlicensed and/or uninsured vehicles on public streets that may not have adequate brakes and other safety equipment.
Even the USFS requires licensed vehicles on public lands (https://www.fs.usda.gov/r05/sequoia/recreation/opportunities/highway-vehicles-ohv).
There have been some court cases where a unlicensed person riding or driving an illegal vehicle (e.g. non-registered and/or uninsured) on a public street that was involved in an accident has been found liable for damages regardless of the facts of the accident because the unlicensed driver and/or illegal vehicle should NOT have been on a public street.
"If a non-licensed driver is involved in an accident, the insurance company may deny coverage based on the lack of a valid license. This can lead to significant financial liabilities, as the driver may be held personally responsible for any damages incurred."
https://driverlessrevolutions.com/will-insurance-cover-a-non-licensed-driver/
Is it wise to risk your personal finances (or your parents' personal finances) by riding an illegal eBike?
I ride a California legal eBike in addition to a dual sport motorcycle that is registered and insured with a motorcycle drivers licence.
letsfastescape@reddit
A bunch of rich twelve year olds with illegal e-motorcycles and bad parents are ruining it for the rest of us.
Pretty soon I’m not gonna be able to commute to work because pre-pubescent Tommy Jo Jr. had to do one more wheelie through an intersection and killed someone.
mayorlittlefinger@reddit
Oh? Then explain why every news article says a "car struck a cyclist" instead of a person hit a cyclist? Seems like clearly the vehicles are the ones causing the mayhem based on the news
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
what are you saying here,, you support banning class 3 ebikes in more places like they recently did at cal state fresno?
mayorlittlefinger@reddit
I was making a joke about how reporters never blame the person
WTFOMGBBQ@reddit (OP)
thanks, it's hard to tell because there is a surprising amount of anti-bike/freedom people replying to this post..
Crushing40@reddit
Everyone’s over reacting and just punishing everyone, I swear to god I want to get into this hobby but I’m so scared a cop is gonna give me a hard time or take it away, and I already don’t do well with confrontation.
wpg_Coyote@reddit
I’ve said this before but until they use the same zeal for going after acoustic bikes doing wrong, this is just a revenue increase tool. This is on parents for handing a 13 y/o the keys to something that weighs more than them and has more power to weight than most starter cars… you charge them for criminal negligence. Instantly you’ll have parents stop buying them for kids of that age and the actual problem goes away. No need to ticket the masses.
green0wnz@reddit
The problem is that unless there are laws prohibiting the 13 year old from riding the e-moto then charging the parent with negligence won’t go anywhere (I would think). Still upvoted you because I agree in spirit.
wpg_Coyote@reddit
Well last I checked, 13y/o’s generally don’t have $5k sitting around to buy a Surron. So the parents are buying them. No different than parents being charged with criminal negligence when kids get a hold of a legal firearm owned by the parents and used by the kid. And if the parent knows that the consequence for doing that is them being charged with criminal negligence, then they’re less likely to buy the kid the thing in the first place.
LopsidedGiraffe@reddit
We are having the same conversations in Australia. Queensland just tried to bring in ridiculous e mobility device laws that restrict the rider to over 16, (250W max, pedal assist is already the law), must hold a learner driver licence (sucks if you are medically not allowed to drive) and 10km/hr limit on all paths shared with pedestrians (we have a lot of shared paths). They have had a parliamentary review and have recommended that the laws be watered down somewhat, thank goodness. But still, the e bikes that comply with current laws (max 25km/hr, pedal assist) that you purchased for your 12 year old to ride the hilly route to school or on the trails will be worthless.
Physical_Click9769@reddit
Idiots keep voting blue that's what happens, leads straight into commi life where u get nothing at all.
Relative-Display-676@reddit
what do you know about commi life? really, let me hear it? have you ever lived under communist regime? what was your experience like? did you like that there was no osha and anything happening to you at work was your problem? or how about no such thing as worker's comp? or that your bank funds were never secured or guaranteed by the state and could be frozen or liquidated at any time? how about the fact that there was no gun violence because nobody had them? you could rent an air rifle at a shooting range or join military to use firearms. but women did have 3 years of paid maternity leave to raise their infants, so that was kind of nice...
Fun_Illustrator_9327@reddit
These dumb fucks know nothing about communism. It’s absolutely laughable to think democrats are communists. But wait, maybe they’re fascists.
Propaganda is a powerful weapon. Especially now and especially with the under educated
Fun_Illustrator_9327@reddit
…said the Nazi
Physical_Click9769@reddit
Just goes to show how delusional democrats are, anything but them is a nazi. I served my country and how bad it can get overseas. Ironically a lefty nowadays has more in common with Hitler than any other time. I don't care for Trump either but just because someone dislikes ur party doesn't make em a nazi, fking soft ass thick headed democrats as usual
Fun_Illustrator_9327@reddit
Tell yourself whatever you need too snowflake. Doesn’t change facts.
Own_Reaction9442@reddit
People in Fresno don't vote blue. They have a Republican mayor.
terraherts@reddit
The amount of ignorant you have to be to say that with a straight face given current events is really something lol
ThriftianaStoned@reddit
One the Rs took over my city they stopped all bike infrastructure that was planned and in progress of being built. You can fuck right off with your bullshit lies you dumb cunt.
Enjoimangos@reddit
Ignorance at the highest level 😂
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
I love E-Bikes but generally have distaste for most E-Bike riders. It takes a lengthy investment of time and energy to get strong enough to ride a bike over 20mph. Now somebody who can barely keep their bike up, has zero knowledge of bike etiquette and may be a 12 year old with the judgement of a fruit fly can go 28mph.
Sadly if E-Bike riders don't reform themselves, the government will do it for them. It is probably already too late.
lnxguy@reddit
The problem is the operators, not the bikes. Idiots and retards have ruined it for those who use the bikes sanely and legally. Same as guns.
MonzellRS@reddit
Guns don’t kill people
I kill people
With guns
POW
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
Everything is getting banned in California. I couldn't order a generator on Amazon already. The state is broke and they want you spending money on power and public transit and gas taxes
Laserdollarz@reddit
Guns don't kill people
The government does
MangoMadnessTsv@reddit
In Queensland Australia, they want to ban them entirety too by literally making them obsolete. Laws proposed here want to slow down an ebike to 10kph on any shared pathway, with pedestrians. It will force us onto the roads competing with cars etc. Govs are using sledgehammers to crack an egg. Ebikes are not going anywhere. Govs will have to take the fact people need them now more than ever especially with the price of fuel. If idiots want to buy their 12yo kids death on a seat that does 50mph then that's on them... That's what police are for.
aaaaargZombies@reddit
Goldie Lookin Chain - Guns Don't Kill People
Enjoimangos@reddit
Lol, freedumb!
stillyoinkgasp@reddit
Ok.