Turkey reported to be preparing maritime zones bill
Posted by Good_Composer_8409@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 258 comments
What do you think? Are we close to a conflict or will be resolved in court?
TurkOmbre@reddit
Erdogan is finally taking action against Greek expansionism; it was about time
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
lmaoooo Erdogan won't do shit, the Turkish economy is one rifle shot away from collapsing. How's Berlin?
Sweet_Bridge_3001@reddit
Its ironic you say that while Greece is %130 debt to GDP. Shit economy is one of many things both of these countries have in common.
pseira@reddit
Yes but the Greek economy is improving vastly with each passing year. GDP increase far outperforms debt increase. We pay off loans earlier than expected. Greece is about 1/8 of Turkey and has 1/3 of its GDP.
GTurkey has a low GDP debt (external) but internal is about 250% of GDP . Inflation is skyrocketing, TL is worth almost zilch and its not looking better.
It's only logical Erdogan ist playing the "unite against the Greeks/Israel is/generic enemy" to manipulate low IQ people away from the real problems...
Sweet_Bridge_3001@reddit
Of course, Greece is improving, something i am happy to see. At the same time, Turkey is also improving; no one stays still.
Inflation skyrocketed*, its been stabilizing, interest rates are raising and things are actually getting better, your talking points are about 5 years old.
>It's only logical Erdogan ist playing the "unite against the Greeks/Israel is/generic enemy" to manipulate low IQ people away from the real problems...
Check the news please, last time Erdoğan talked about Greece was in February, and the comment was ''I really hope and believe from heart to continue open communication with Greece.''
No hostility, no tension, things are perfectly fine between the two countries.
gibigibi34@reddit
Battlefleet_Sol@reddit
This is great news. It will curb Greece's maximalism and force them to come to terms with Turkey. The limit is 6 nautical miles of territorial waters and 6 nautical miles of airspace; we will not accept any solution beyond that.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
And yet Turkey demands half of the Aegaen plus the islands handed to them. Fyi citizens of the islands have greek citizenship not Turkish.
Battlefleet_Sol@reddit
I don’t want half of the Aegean. Six nautical miles of territorial waters and six nautical miles of airspace that’s it
Also, no one in Turkish politics is saying, ‘Let’s capture the Greek islands.’ What they are saying is that the Greek islands should remain demilitarized.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
If they succeed with this law what makes you think they won't go further on evacuating the islands or cut their supplies from Greece so they will be forced to leave. Also if that happenes you do realize that our relations will be non existent for decades closed borders etc.
pseira@reddit
Battlefleet_Sol@reddit
Then sit down and negotiate. Turkey’s demands are not far from reasonable. They are not asking for the islands or their resources. They are saying: keep it fixed at 6 miles. By refusing to compromise, you are the ones making this narrative grow.
Do you really think putting artillery and missiles on the islands will protect them? What will that achieve other than making the people there suffer? Those places should not be protected by militarization, but by a compromise with Turkey.
AntiKouk@reddit
Ukraine gave up it's nuclear arsenal to Russia in an agreement to never go to war. How did that go. Claiming people were asking for it is a rapists mentality
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
The militarization started because of Turkey's threats, especially after what happened in Cyprus.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
what happened in cyprus is we stopped your genocidal cunts and ensured no one dares try again.
AntiKouk@reddit
The first invasion succeeded in that
MajinaiHanashi@reddit
Haha, no. Greece started militarizing the islands, especially the Dodecanese, in the 50s to prepare for their enosis attempt. You've got the timeline mixed.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Greece did not militarize the Dodecanese to pursue Enosis. The islands were ceded in 1947, and their later fortification was primarily a response to Turkish military developments after 1974.
TurkOmbre@reddit
So what? The Treaty of Lausanne doesn't stipulate any militarization (unless there's a war). Turkey has never threatened to annex the islands. Oh yes, and to excuse yourself, you're going to bring up the story of the Istanbul rums from the 60s, lol.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Well if I would threat to steal your property would you give it to me or throw me out change your locks and put cameras all over for surveillance?
TurkOmbre@reddit
You have already stolen our Western Thrace and Macedonia, populated mainly by Turks. Turkey hasn't stolen anything from you (yet); you have constantly expanded your territory onto other peoples in the name of independence. Turkey is no longer the Ottoman Empire of 1912. I have the impression that 1922 and 1974 never instilled this awareness in you. Perhaps 2031 will finally? 🤷🏻♂️
Belgraviana@reddit
You can’t say turkey any the Ottoman Empire and hasn’t done anything to you and then also claim Greece stole territory from you and not the Ottoman Empire
TurkOmbre@reddit
Greece stole territories populated by TURKS.
Belgraviana@reddit
So about the Greeks living in the territory of modern Turkey?
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Greeks were a minority in all the provinces of Anatolia…. The Turks were the majority in Macedonia and Western Thrace
Belgraviana@reddit
And the Greek populated islands of tenedos and imbros which Lausanne said should have semi autonomous rule?
TurkOmbre@reddit
You're talking about two isolated islets…
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Είναι βλαμμένο/η μην ασχολείσαι, δεν ξέρει που πατάει και που βρίσκεται. Ζήτημα αν ξέρει πόσο κάνει ένα και ένα.
pseira@reddit
Disband the 4th army then..or move it to the eastern border.
Battlefleet_Sol@reddit
Sure. Would you also like some coffee and Turkish delight with that?
pseira@reddit
Well you can't expect to have an army on the coast and your neighbors say and do nothing. The islands were fortified in the 60s and especially after 1974, BOTH times as a response to Turkish hostile movements (1966 -- 45h Army and 1974 Cyprus invasion).
For every action , there is an equal reaction.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Turkey never demanded any islands. Wtf are you talking about. Stop the propaganda.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Yes you did. Dodecanese and some other small islands are disputed according to Turkey. Leros, Fournoi, Lipsi, Limnos and others.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Yes because these islands are ours
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
With every comment you make you prove a lot of things for yourself. The Ottoman empire is over!
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Ottoman Empire didn't really care about these islands.
pseira@reddit
That's why they gave them away/lost them.
Deal with it Turkish isles and islets are situated within 3 miles from the coast.
Everything else is Greek , except imvros + Tenedos
The fairy tale of 152 islands illegally occupied by Greece must end.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Bro don’t look at the other guy he is stupid. No they are not contested. Turkey gave away their right to them with loussanne.
Greek_Bodybuilder995@reddit
There will be no court that can mediate between us and Turkey if the Turkish Parliament votes positively on the mavi vatan principle, codifies it into law and if said law then gets promulgated by the President. The Turks will then argue that a) they are not party to UNCLOS and don't intend to ratify it, b) this is a law passed by parliament, which makes political decisions more difficult to reverse.
What this basically means is that the Turkish Navy and Turkish Coast Guard but also Turkish fishermen will treat these waters as their own.
pseira@reddit
So what's stopping Greece from voting a similar law with overlapping areas? If we have clown neighbors, we have to treat them like clowns
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
I don't think they will act on waters only. I believe their goal is to invade and replace locals. If they succeed with this law then another law will come and another till they do what they want.
Sow_40@reddit
Thats not true, Turkey just wants its fair share of the Agean sea. Turkey is not a country looking for war since 100 years.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately this is gonna happen. I hope the Greek state is ready for mass refugees from the islands or the case goes to court without conflict or refugees.
Sow_40@reddit
Thats not true at all. Not even in Syria this happened after reclaiming whole Syria by the help of Erdogan, Turks didnt claim 1m² of it.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
It is we both know it. You do realize though that this is like going to your neighbors garden without his consent and start digging.
Sow_40@reddit
If one neighbour says both garden 100% are his, then this is normal i will dig on my own garden, he can keep saying all of it is his lol.
50/50% is fair. not one neighbour claiming 100%
Kitsooos@reddit
Let's share Anatolia 50-50 as well then. It's only fair after all. Why do you get to keep 100% of it and we (the original owners mind you) get 0 ?
Do you see the stupidity of your argument ? The Aegean is Greek, because you lost the wars and because the people that live there are Greeks. There is no 50-50 happening.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
If Turkey claims 50% of the Aegean do you know where the sea borders of Turkey will be? Also the islands then its uncertain in which territory will be since Turkey want to go beyond them.
Sow_40@reddit
The Islands will keep their own 6 nautical miles. Its just the international waters that matter
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
You do realize though that can't happen. The islands are not independent states.
Early-Show2886@reddit
It really is astonishing that in an "Ask Balkan" forum, only the Greek lobby hangs out—posting their hatred against Turks.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Your islands serve as your tourist destination. In 100 years you haven't developed anything there…
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Develop? You mean make them as you have done in your country the tourist destinations?
TurkOmbre@reddit
Under Turkish rule, these islands would have had a much more diversified economy. Greece even underdeveloped these islands; even under the Ottoman Empire, these Aegean islands had a more diversified economy.
Turkey must reclaim its islands for the common good of the region's economy.
Greece is corrupt and governed by incompetents who are selling their country to Europeans and Chinese.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
The citizens of the islands are Greek citizens not Turkish.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Nobody cares about these few Greek citizens, average age 60.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
I hope you're a minority of your country and not an average Turk.
TurkOmbre@reddit
There is no Turk 1 or Turk 2: We are all united in the face of external threats, whatever happens
Yavannia@reddit
Masks off moment.
Sow_40@reddit
Nah dont listen to this guy. Hes a little dumb its like the Greeks who says they will take istanbul back lol.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Already in the 19th century, there was considerable immigration from the islands to our Anatolian cities. A few years after the loss of control of these islands...
Even the Greeks fled independent Greece, lol, there's no prestige in living in Greece
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
That’s why erdogan recalled the burning of Izmir " Greeks remember what happened in Izmir ". Anyways fair share is to ignore the international law of the sea ? And pass to the parliament that if Greece proceeds to have their nautical miles as it’s mentioned in international law it’s a casus beli ( reason for war ) ?? Yeah seems like a very friendly neighbour tbh
Sow_40@reddit
Your laws dont apply to me? I can also make up laws saying all of agean is Turkeys does this apply to you???
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
Laws apply to anyone
Your point is so stupid. We can track back for many reasons why Greece didn’t expand. But u miss the elephant in the room and that is that why Turkey threats a sovereign nations with war just because following the international law. In this case it’s Greece that decides if they want less N.M. than they currently have. They don’t interfere with turkeys that’s basically Greek waters
Sow_40@reddit
Your international laws dont matter to me lol, i can also make up my international laws with my friends that says 100% of agaen sea is turkish??? Whats so hard to understand??????????
Why are you changing up the rules in 2026 if for nearly 100 years the status was 6 miles in the sea??? You are the overstepping leading us to war
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
Your laws don’t matter to u is irrelevant because it applies for almost every country in the world. We didnt come up with these rules. Don’t hate the player hate the game.
We don’t change the rules in 2026 because for years we’ve been trying to but Turkey threats with war lol. Leading us to a war is a choice of Turkey.
Sow_40@reddit
It matters for the countries signed up. The countries that dont signed up dont have to follow these made up rules.
If you let things as they are since 100 years theres no war. But if you overstep and try to change the rules in the sea and lock Turkey out. There will be war and you cannot blame Turkey for this. You can thank your own goverment for this
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
That’s why we follow the rules and go 12 nm that simple.
" Yes let’s follow what Turkey says because we gonna start a war "
If u don’t follow the rules then there’s anarchy between the countries. Turkey then can say tha the Aegean belongs all to Turkey. There’s no law to base it on. Why cut in half ?? If there’s no rules u basically say to follow the Turkish rules.
Sow_40@reddit
Its not Turkish rules, its what is fair.
Think of another countries for example China and Japan, imagine if China claims 100% of a sea and want to lock Japan out of it, is this fair for you? Is this fair or is 50/50 fair????
If Turkey goes and says we will take 60% or 70% of the sea then i will be cheering for the side of Greece. This will not happen
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
The thing is Japan themselves reduced their nm so they don’t lock China. No military threats to begin with when it was signed.
Greece and Turkey are nato allies. So Turkey could accept Greeces 12 nm but the Turkish ships can sail through Greece. Simple. China and Japan couldn’t do the same if Japan had 12 nm nowadays because of the alliance with USA.
They could also use the Greek waters for military training because as I said they are both in nato. All it needs is to cancel the casus beli that the Turkish parliament passed towards Greece.
Btw why would 50/50 be fair ?? I could argue that it isn’t fair
Sow_40@reddit
Ok, i see u dont wanna understand. If theres war you can thank your own goverment dont blame Turkey.
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
Understand what ? Do u feel bad when somone challenges your opinions ?
If your resort is war then it’s turkey that is the problem. At the end of the day we know how bad nationalism is in Turkey
Sow_40@reddit
Bro Turkey is not a country that looks for war. They did not even participate in world war 2. Its a neutral nation and you wanna take away the sea lol. Why dont u understand?
Just because you name it international laws it doesnt make it laws for everyone not even USA is signed up.
Turkey can also make up international laws with its friends and name it international laws will greece follow these laws??? Whats so hard to understand?
YOU are the problem claiming all the sea. Turkey defends themself in this matter.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
You want Greece to agree with your terms. The thing is that what benefits you, doesn't benefit someone else. You can't force none to agree with you or do what you like without their consent.
TurkOmbre@reddit
I love Greece. Westerners make laws: oh look, they're international laws, the white man made laws, they must have universal application.
Greece is so subservient : It is incapable of resolving a problem with its neighbors without laws written by other powers.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
You love Greece yet you said in another comment who cares about citizens with average age 60 living in the islands.
Zealousideal-Map6965@reddit
Solving the problems with Turkey means to agree to Turkish terms. lol it’s like listening to Hakkan fidan rn. The reason why these laws exist is to avoid unnecessary conflicts over things most countries agree on. If u think everything in politics is rainbows and candies and can be solved by dialogue sorry to tell u , then you’re childish.
Greece doesn’t have the cards to solve this. Turkey with millitary action can shut down every proposal that doesn’t fit them.
Yavannia@reddit
What was the Cyprus invasion then? A school trip?
Sow_40@reddit
The Cyprus invasion was because you tried to kill the Turkish people there?
Bloody Christmas says something to you?
Early-Show2886@reddit
Thanks for your understanding, but as you can see, the Greek lobby is far too prevalent—everywhere, on every platform. If you express your opinion as someone of Turkish descent, you usually get downvoted or insulted. Like I said, the Greeks have never given up on their desire for the *Megali Idea*. It’s something they are taught from a very young age.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
It's "fair share of the Aegean" is the bits closer to its coast than to Greek Islands.
iboreddd@reddit
Nope. Not at all
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Yes it is and we both know it.
emremirrath@reddit
It's really funny to see that some Greeks on the internet thinks that we Turks think nothing but invading Greece and the useless desolate islands, and change the people there etc.
Dear neighbor, I'm really sorry to shatter your dreams but you can be calm, majorty of people in Turkey does not give a flying f... about Greece, and most of the rest really see you as close neighbors with many similarities. Only very very few number of people may see you as enemies that's all.
Politicians speak, that's what they do. They say bizarre things, do not fall to them. There is really no reason to make us live rent free in your heads. Just chill neighbor, we wont invade you. We have much much bigger problems, just dont antagonize us, that's all.
Kitsooos@reddit
The "Mavi Vatan" thing is a de-facto official goal of the Turkish state.
It doesn't really matter that most everyday Turks don't really care or even know about it, because they don't make the decisions. The ones that make the decisions want to invade and conquer half the Aegean and they are not even trying to hide it.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
See the comments on this thread. Also it's the official position of Turkey. We don't antagonize you as I said in another comment Greeks are indifferent for Turkey.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Come and tell me this is fair to Turkey
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Come and tell me this fair to Greece. I didn't make the treaty of Lausanne nor any other treaty.
tabris51@reddit
Look at both the images and decide which one looks more fair.
Even in Turkish version, Greece holds more of the sea.
Greek version meanwhile, claims that the islands are connected to continent by land.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
The islands are the EU’s eastern border. Their proximity to Turkey does not make them any less Greek, any less European, or any less entitled to maritime rights under international law.
tabris51@reddit
They are islands, you cannot claim an entire sea if the land is not connected to mainland. They still have their radius but a single island wouldn't black the southern half of the coast.
Greece is claiming islands are connected by land to Greece and they are not islands. Entire EU collectively agrees and pretends they are not islands because it works in their favor.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
That is not how international law works. Islands remain islands and still generate territorial waters, continental shelf, and Exclusive Economic Zones; no one is claiming they are “connected by land” to mainland Greece. The fact that Greek islands are numerous and close to the Turkish coast is a geographic reality recognized by the Treaty of Lausanne and the Treaty of Paris (1947). If geography leaves Turkey with less room in the Aegean, that may feel unfair, but treaties and international law are based on sovereignty, not on which map looks more convenient.
tabris51@reddit
Look at meis island and tell me it is a part of continental the Greek continental shelf and not Turkish. It's not territorial main land, it can't claim entire sea. There are other examples where some islands are close to other countries and they don't automatically give claims to the whole zone area. Because they are remote islands, just like many Greek islands, especially meis, which is like 2km to the shore.
Though, Romania did try to pull a Greece on Ukraine but it didn't work.
Bran37@reddit
You are talking about Kastellorizo which is indeed a more isolated island in the Eastern Meditteranean that gives Greece (according to UNCLOS) the biggest part of that sea that Turkey would normally have if it didn't exist (which we all know that in case Greece and Turkey go to an International Court, Turkey only has to gain there) - only to then talk about the Aegean sea which is a sea where all the islands except 2 (and some stones around the Turkish coast) are greek. You say the maps are unfair - with the Treaty of Lausanne Turkey got the mainland-the coast and Greece got the islands, it is what it is. I also think that it's unfair that Bosnia gets no coast while Croatia has so many beaches. Cool.
And then you also have Cyprus. How do you explain Turkey's maritime borders around Cyprus?
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
and?
I'm from Kastellorizo, it's Greek territory.
u guys may "support" conceding things, to Turkey, but that's not how it works, in Greece.
& no idea y u think a UN court would side w/ Turkey.
Bran37@reddit
Kastellorizo is Greek sovereign territory. If Greece and Turkey agree ask for arbitration in an International Court it will mean Greece is ready to move from its current position and accept the decision of the court. In the case of Kastellorizo it is clear that Greece will not get as much EEZ as UNCLOS suggests because of Kastellorizo being a small and isolated island. You can either have a mutually acceptable compromise agreement or each country claiming what they want.
When you intend to make agreements with your neighbors there is some flexibility you're willing to show. Thats what happened with both of the agreements with Italy and Egypt. While the starting position was the Median line it was adjusted giving to some islands like Karpathos and Rhodes + smaller islands smaller effect. Which is why if you look at the Egypt-Greece EEZ agreement - Greece conceded a part of the sea that would be Greek EEZ if they went strictly with the Median line. And that's okay, when you have a neighbor who is willing to have a fair agreement. Turkey however says that not even Crete should have EEZ.
Ofc the agreement with Egypt didn't include the area that Kastellorizo is in.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
In similar cases, laws decide in favor of the other side (i.e. Turkey). Though to what degree depends on the details. I guess Turkey does not think the verdict would be similar, perhaps a matter of distrust. Otherwise not certain why they would not go to the court.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
It looks pretty fair tbh. Maybe a bit too much to south west.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
For that map to become reality Turkey must claim land aka the islands in red, otherwise they can't claim anything.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Why not? You could just sign it and it happens.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Why we would do that?
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
I am not stating a why. Just saying it is possible to give up your ezz without giving up the islands themselves. It was a stupid argument from you.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Still why give up our EEZ?
emremirrath@reddit
I advice you not to take Reddit users comments as general opinions, or any social media comments in general. The people that makes most comments are usually from far ends of the spectrum.
I know I am just another reddit user saying this and have no way of proving my honesty, believe or think what you will. But most regular Turks are indifferent to Greeks, most of the remaining are somewhat positive to them. You are not even on the top 3 hated people among the ultra nationalists.
Politicians fan this fire sometimes, the people from far ends of the spectrum catch this fire and turn it into flames. I sincerely believe both people have much much bigger problems than each other. We are used against each other for diversion.
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
Good cope, but look at the majority of the turkish comments in this post and the false claims of the turkish government. The average opinion of the turk in to not share the Marine borders under international law, but make an exception for Turkey, because it benefits them. The country acts as a bully and the citizens seem to be far too deep in the propaganda. One turkish commenter even wrote, "we'll the islands might be under Greek jurisdiction but look at men's in the map and tell me it is not a turkish island". And these comments are coming from the turkish neckbearded redditors, I don't imagine the average turk to be more progressive.
emremirrath@reddit
If that's what you want to think or believe, do what suits you. If you want to live in constant fear that your neighbour will invade you at any time soon, you are free to do that. If you want to believe what the politicians say or be offended by some random people in Reddit or Twitter, you can continue to do so. I have no obligation to change your mind. But I believe I am an average Turkish person, with many other average Turkish people around me. No one cares about the islands, territorial waters, no one wants to invade anywhere. We have so much bigger problems. You are not a concern. Also I follow Turkish news, foreign policy news etc. You are not in the top stories bro. Unless you antagonize, threaten or choke us, or try to purge us from somewhere, we wont come at one night unexpectedly again.
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
But that is the problem, what most turks perceive as Greece "trying to purge them" is well within it's commercial and defensive rights, because the government produces non-stop government. As I said looking at most of the comments made by Turkish users here is enough, but what can I say. Ignorance is a bliss I guess.
emremirrath@reddit
Yeah I am sure that you know what "most" Turks think better than me just just by seeing a few comments in Reddit despite %99 of Turkish people do not know what Reddit is.
Again I wish you a life free of fear my friend. If you value Reddit comments so much please take a fellow Reddit commenter's advice: Do not give in to what politicians say to create diversions for the real problems you have.
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
I understand that turkey is a complete disaster of a state with terrible economics, terrorism problems and constant inner conflicts, but that has not preventwd it from being an aggressor in the past. Even in recent years take a look at Armenia and Syria, in fact it is the terrible situation of the country, that makes it act in aggresiveness against its neighboors, when they are at turmoil.
When this law comes into your parlament your goverment is most likely to vote for it and you won't even hear of it, as is their plan, as most turks won't hear about it. Then when the consequenses come up, they will be presented to you as an act of aggression from Greece against Turkey.
But I see, that you are not discussing in good faith. For you it is more important to show "how little you care", because you rather live in the dark little safe bubble of propaganda, that your country wants you in.
emremirrath@reddit
Ok neighbor, just think what you want. And dont forget to lock your door at night, the "Terrible Turks" might come and invade your house.
Diogenes-wannabe@reddit
Whatever dude go kill a baby or something.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
What official position are you talking about bro? You really should lower your greek propaganda intake. Only thing turkey wants a fair split of eez. Nobody cares about islands with bunch of greeks on them and no natural resources.
Mucklord1453@reddit
Then give tenedos and imbros back
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
You are sick in the head bro
Mucklord1453@reddit
Did you not say they are useless islands with no resources ?
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Whatever you say bro
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
The position of your government. Your president on multiple occasions has spoke ill about Greece and threaten with invasion, bombing athens etc. If that isn's official position, whaat is?
Early-Show2886@reddit
We Turks know that you Greeks have never given up your dream of the Megali Idea.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
We have for decades forgot about that! We are 10 million. It's no use to us to invade a country with 80 million Turkish speaking Muslims. Those are ideas of internet trolls. Not a single Greek prime Minister ever stated or threatened Turkey they will bomb Ankara or that we will come one night.
TurkOmbre@reddit
And if we were 10 million and you were 86 million, what would you do against us?
I think Turkey is already far too nice with Greece.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
You have to realize that our roads parted many many decades ago. Majority of Greeks feel indifference for Turkey. We moved forward big time as state and the citizens too in many areas of their lifes. Though somehow Turkey is stuck and "obsessed" with Greece for everything and doesn't let go at least this is how we perceive it in Greece.
KathenWalle6@reddit
Cool story bro. The only reason greece and greeks are actinf cool headed like this is because you dont have enough manpower and firepower. Like the other dude said if the roles were reversed with 86 mil of you and 10 mil of us, well i can see how things would go very well
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Now the roles aren't reversed it is how it is.
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Turk isn't stupid, we're aware of all that.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
So why you insist of if what theories?
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Turks will not fall into the trap of pacifism with Greece
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Then stop bothering us. Leave us alone. As I said before we parted ways long ago.
TurkOmbre@reddit
It is Greece that will not leave us in peace; it is occupying our Aegean waters.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Maybe we can all 10 million immigrate to europe and leave you everything behind?
TurkOmbre@reddit
That would solve so many problems.
Turkey will be able to excel more internationally
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
Youre a f troll
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Greeks are indifferent because they understand they won't get any part of Turkey. You're confusing cause and effect… If the balance of power had shifted, the Greeks would have invaded us again. You're so dishonest you'll never admit that reality. It's absolutely essential that Turkish leaders ask themselves this question and act accordingly: What would Greece have done if the balance of power had shifted?
We must behave exactly as Greece would have if the balance of power had been reversed, no more and no less.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
No they are indifferent because they don't care. With what IF theories we can't talk. I'm not dishonest I'm saying it how it is. We just want to be left alone.
TurkOmbre@reddit
You have supposedly developed a ‘pacifist’ ideology precisely because you are perfectly aware that you are no longer a match for Turkey. We are no longer in the 1920s-1970s. The more Turkey gains power, the more you advocate for peace. It's an extremely dishonest game, but don't worry, Atatürk educated us very well to understand all these issues. The Ottoman Empire ended 103 years ago; Greece is facing now the state founded by Atatürk.
And we will get what we want, period.
Good_Composer_8409@reddit (OP)
You can use your power in Syria, Iraq. Greece isn't facing the state Ataturk made, is facing a state that's becoming like Iran and it moves backwards instead of forward. There are Turks and Kurds left Turkey and they live mostly in Athens because of what you have done to your country, human rights violations, no freedom of speech and lots more.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Nice troll
in 1922 and 1974?
Early-Show2886@reddit
Well, now you're contradicting yourself. All the posts and comments on every platform—from you diaspora Greeks living in English-speaking countries—do nothing but incite hatred against Turks.
BankBackground2496@reddit
We are very adverse ro changing borders through conflict. Russia paid a heavy price for doing that and so will Turkey in that unlikely event.
yamankara@reddit
national law doesn't change international law.
TR already is not party to unclos, no need for a law to make that argument.
Turkish laws do not get promulgated by the president. legislative vs executive powers.
abki12c@reddit
Turkey is already preparing the biggest army. Not in NATO but on social media (TikTok, Instagram, Reddit). The Blue Homeland doctrine is being taught in Turkish schools.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Turkey already has a large, battle-hardened, and competent army. Furthermore, it has the third densest diplomatic network in the world. In the event of war, apart from a few countries, no one will come to your aid for a few islands; keep that in mind.
BankBackground2496@reddit
You think?
We'll see how NATO works.
nuclear2999@reddit
Their citizens would starve in two weeks with that economy. Every time their president opens his mouth, their currency loses value.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Macron's France is better, yes ? With 4 trillion euros of debt and a continuous decline for 40 years. Young French people are leaving the country. 💀
BankBackground2496@reddit
Young Turks would jump to the chance of moving to France.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Yet those who have the opportunity no longer choose France as their country of expatriation
They go to Germany, Holland, Norway, Spain not France
BankBackground2496@reddit
They don't choose, they may get a visa from one of those countries if they are lucky.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Yes and after they will go to another place, France is horrible
nuclear2999@reddit
Inflation is 1% a year here. Turkey’s monthly inflation is 4%. :)
TurkOmbre@reddit
And what about wages in France? The French are all on minimum wage; it's the only country where retirees earn more than those currently working, and your industry is in decline. And your president fancies himself the new Napoleon. France is the only Western European country that can't lecture Turkey. ;)
France's only achievement is being able to attract Francophone Africa ;)
nuclear2999@reddit
Almost nobody earns the minimum wage. The minimum wage is €12,02 an hour, and you work 35 hours a week. In addition to that, you receive help from the government. Even after paying your rent, you have more than €800 left in many cities. Meanwhile Turks earn 28000 TL a month and pay 30000 TL for rent.
YamReasonable6974@reddit
Most of your taxes go to old peoples wages and welfare. You should be angry at your government for propping up rich boomers, not other countries. Good luck in 10 years when there are even less working young people and more retired old people.
I am sure fucking with Libya one more time will make it all ok tho.
nuclear2999@reddit
A country must support its citizens, and that’s exactly what welfare does. It should even be increased. I’d rather pay more taxes and get €3000+ a month when I retire than pay less taxes and get €400 a month.
YamReasonable6974@reddit
I don't think your preference is relevant here. You won't be able to do that if it keeps going. I am just saying your people stopped fucking and it is a debt spiral now. Worry about that. At least research it before worrying about what Greece is doing.
nuclear2999@reddit
Other Europeans can work in France without any difficulty. We can also issue visas to those who want to work. It’s not really a problem.
YamReasonable6974@reddit
Aint nobody going there to break their backs so half their wages can go to rich old French that fucking hate them for being immigrants.
Good luck when RM gets elected tho.
TurkOmbre@reddit
You forgot to mention that France is the most heavily taxed country in the world. 🤣🤫
nuclear2999@reddit
We do not like the rich and thieves like you do. :) We also enjoy free healthcare, free education, and many public services. When we retire, we get nearly 100% of our salary. If you retire in Turkey, you get less than €400 a month. You cannot even go to the hospital because there are no appointments available.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Yet the rich under Macron got even richer :) Stop spreading your French propaganda in our subreddit
Thank you :)
nuclear2999@reddit
That’s why we can vote to change the president. We do not have dictators. :)
Our students get more than €6000 a year and €1 meals as a grant if their economic conditions are not well. What about your students?
TurkOmbre@reddit
Half of French students don't even have enough to eat. So STOP your propaganda !
https://youtu.be/H4QbLXnh-cE?si=dGLvLBr7-LeC1eRo
And again, STOP squatting our sub. Thank you.
nuclear2999@reddit
They are mostly international students not covered by grants. They come from poor countries like Turkey and some other African countries. They can get €100-300 housing aid per month, but that’s it.
https://www.service-public.gouv.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F12214
TurkOmbre@reddit
You're lying shamelessly; the link I gave you mentions 56% of students without any national distinction.
Who still takes France seriously in 2026? Countries like Greece and Armenia, perhaps? :)
nuclear2999@reddit
The video does not say that, but this article mentions it:
https://www.letudiant.fr/educpros/actualite/selon-l-ove-46-des-etudiants-precaires-ne-mangent-pas-a-leur-faim.html
The current rate is 46% according to this article, and it’s mostly foreigners and those who do not receive help from their families. We have more than 300000 international students.
“Les étudiants qui rencontrent le plus de difficultés sont les étudiants étrangers, ainsi que les étudiants qui bénéficient de peu de soutien de leur famille.” “Ainsi, 17,4% des boursiers déclarent ne pas avoir suffisamment à manger, contre 9,8% des étudiants.”
Only 17,4% of those who receive a grant struggle to eat. That’s still high, but a grant alone cannot make you survive in big cities. The system is going to be reformed to alleviate this.
In Turkey, even middle school students struggle to eat:
https://t24.com.tr/egitim/turkiye-oecdde-ilk-sirada-her-5-ogrenciden-1i-derse-ac-giriyor,1306697?_t=1778421041815
I cannot imagine their university students unless they eat pasta every day.
TurkOmbre@reddit
You select sources as you please, while my source was reliable and clearly contradicted you, you who spread propaganda as if France were paradise on earth.
go far away from our sub
Techies4lyf@reddit
This is not your sub you clown.
TurkOmbre@reddit
It is our (Balkaners) sub. If you are not happy with this reality go away
nuclear2999@reddit
I have already left Turkey because of the horrible situation. I can gladly criticize Erdogan and his fellow thieves.
nuclear2999@reddit
Why would it not be? I’m half-Turkish.
nuclear2999@reddit
The source is OECD. What else do you want?
Karl_ZeDragonHunter@reddit
Trash Vs Junk
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Brother, your country is the biggest threat to EU economics, even worse than Greece. I would not throw these stones around while living in a glass house.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Wishful thinking I see
TurkOmbre@reddit
NATO has absolutely no desire or capacity to antagonize Turkey over a dispute concerning the control of two or three resource-poor islands.
The Greeks know this perfectly well
BankBackground2496@reddit
You attempt to change borders and that is unacceptable.
NATO turned a blind eye in 2008 Georgia and 2014 Ukraine. That was a mistake. Trump tried to take Greenland, did not work out, most of NATO members sent one soldier each to Greenland.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
And how do you think nato works when two members have a conflict?
BankBackground2496@reddit
Tell the aggressor to stop and pull back and if that fails kick it out then take it from there.
YamReasonable6974@reddit
Aggressor of what?
TXDobber@reddit
“Battle hardened”
Against Kurdish farmers in the mountains and bombing Kurdish villages in Syria… and even then they struggled immensely in fighting them.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Drone warfare changed everything.
Turkey did good in Syria but in a war between Turkey and Greece; it will be the drones, airforce, missiles and air defense that will be the deciding factors, not special forces.
And the most importantly... the industrial base of the country. Greece will either secure a quick victory or it will simply suffer Ukraine's fate. But of course this means it will be a pyrrhic victory for Turkey.
TurkOmbre@reddit
You're stuck in the 90s 🫢
TXDobber@reddit
No, I’m referring to Syria. You seem to be stuck in the pre-2016 world, where Turkey still had a competent and somewhat capable military.
abki12c@reddit
I agree, Turkey has the biggest army ... on social media. This army can be effectively combatted with DNA tests.
In the event of a war I don't know what will happen but what I do know is that Greece has important allies such as France and Israel while Turkey is loosing allies even in the middle east. Israelis talk about Turkey being the next Iran, an operation for freeing North Cyprus and bombing the Akkuyu nuclear power plant.
Successful-Biggy@reddit
Too bold claims for someone who genuinely agrees that it owes it's existence to it's allies. First things first, tell me the allies Turkey lost in middle east. KSA? Allied. Qatar, UAE, Oman ? Allied. Syria? I am not even mentioning...
And let's speak about the army. Turkish army's size is bigger than whole Greek population in state of emergency. And I don't even put assets of the army onto the table.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
We have a saying it Turkey that roughly translates as having the wedding night using someone else’s dick
I’m not saying it’s a bad idea to have reliable allies but you are following a maximalist approach in aegean and relying on others to enforce it waaaay too much.
France is just happy to sell you guns, and for Israel there is only Israel
abki12c@reddit
In the end bigger countries decide what will happen and opposing them won't bring any good outcome. The Greek army doesn't relly on the help of others, otherwise there wouldn't be an aerial superiority in the Aegean. But smaller countries need allies to keep their sorveign rights. If Greek interests of Greece coincide with interests of ther countries then there's more reasons for them to support us. The EU supported Ukraine which isn't even in the EU so why wouldn't they support an EU member?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Widely different cases but first of all Ukraine is defending itself and we did a lot for them too. You are trying to grab more than fair with others’ help.
For any sort of military superiority, stop deluding yourself. You are getting practically scolded for not giving your mirage’s to ukraine and purchasing new planes. I am not saying that to belittle you. But while we say fair share in the Aegean makes sense you chase 95% grab, which will never happen and in the meantime you are a good customer for France who is currently seeking European military leadership sensing a USA departure. It’s good vibes with circlejerking subs in reddit but dont wake up to a harsh reality.
Countries interests conflict all the time. That no way means it has to mean a fight. But currently you are antagonizing someone who is close to you for no good reason at that and relying on far away help to enforce it. It didnt work for anyone not just you. It didnt work in 1920’s, it’s not gonna work now. Stop
abki12c@reddit
Yeah Ukraine is a different case. The Russian occupied areas of Ukraine voted to be part of Russia while the Greek islands are 100% Greek. Also Ukraine is not an EU and NATO member.
Even Turkish analysts agree Greece has aerial superiority in the Aegean which doesn't allign with the view of the average Turkish nationalist about the 2nd biggest army in NATO ... or TikTok to be exact.
The "fair share" is ignoring islands can have a marintime zone, even big islands like Crete and Rhodes. UNCLOS is in effect in the Black sea for a member that hasn't signed any of it like Turkey, claiming 12 nautical miles there but not in the Aegean, sharing is necessary there to support the broken Turkish economy because of the natural gas reserves.
Let me also remind you that the British army controlled Constantinople and there was a partition plan in Anatolia by France, Italy and Britain. If it's in their best interest and conditions are met don't be surprised if they try it again.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Let me also remind you we kicked them out of Istanbul and taught you how to swim. Like I said, stop with that line of thinking, at that time you were just a tool to them and currently you are begging to be so again, doomed to fail.
We dont care about your islands. They are yours. But we dont agree you can deny us our maritime zone with those based on an agreement we didnt sign. It’s pointless to bring it up really. It is a very fundamental principle in international law how bindings work.
And as for the rest of unclos, it was that oke clause we didnt sign it. The rest of it is basically just naval conventions in writing, conventions we have been a part of anyway. It’s not a gotcha moment when we act similar on other matters.
TurkOmbre@reddit
That's precisely the problem with Greece today: it believes Turkey is a small country like Greece. Neither France nor Israel has the capacity to decide for Turkey. If you believe otherwise, you're deluding yourself.
Therefore, all your decisions taken against Turkey are completely misguided. You have a false image and reality about Turkey
abki12c@reddit
Everyone is someone's lapdog, Turkey is no exception. It's the lapdog of USA. USA is Israel's lapdog so I wouldn't be surprised if they side with Israel against Turkey like with Iran. Our Pontic Greek leader Erdogan pasha is a strong leader unlike Kemalists who are pro westerners.
TurkOmbre@reddit
You're oversimplifying things. Turkey has an incredible capacity to make decisions on its own; Greece is nowhere near that level. What I've noticed, as a Turk, is that Greece and Southern Cyprus are massively underestimating Turkey (economic, politic, diplomatic, millitary)
Greece is completely off track regarding its Turkish policy
TurkOmbre@reddit
And what about the Greek lobby in Western countries? ‘Greece and the cradle of Western civilization, all that stuff.’ Lol
whereas the average Greek has nothing to do with the DNA of the true ancient Greeks 🤷🏻♂️
It's funny that you always mention Israel, which so far has never faced a real nation. Israel is already having trouble in Iran with all the help the US provides, lol. For them, Turkey will be for another time, I think. 🤷🏻♂️
And France has 4 trillion euros of debt and a huge trade deficit. Your debt’s friend 🤷🏻♂️
abki12c@reddit
Actually there's continuity of Greek DNA dating that can be traces back to Mycenaeans and Minoans (source).
Israel has faced 7 Arab countries alone at once and won. Iran is much stronger than Turkey. Israel wants to destroy Iran's nuclear program, not to invade and take land.
France was the only nation to send ground troops in the Greek war of Independence.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Israel faced newly created nations (20 years old) in 1960. Never in its history has it faced a truly independent nation.
Furthermore, Israel has never helped another nation, and Greece is waiting for help from Israel, lol
If you trust these nations, you can already sign your defeat. 🤷🏻♂️
abki12c@reddit
Israel won 3 major wars against Arabs in 1948, 1967 and 1973 and Arabs got owned. Israel has helped the USA, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan etc. Israel is already helping Greece via Pilot training, intelligence and surveillance cooperation and agreements on energy.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Lol 🤣
counting on Israel in 2026🤭
I don't even understand why Greece hasn't become a German-Turkish protectorate yet. You're so incompetent that I wonder how you've managed to survive all this time. 😬
abki12c@reddit
We're not counting on anyone. It's a transactional relationship. It's simple, we give them tzatziki and feta cheese, they give us Constantinople.
TurkOmbre@reddit
‘They give us C*nstantinople’
The mouths untangle as we can see 🤣
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
And yet all I see is greek trolls… spreading your maximalist bullshit and antagonizing a maritime rights doctrine like it’s some sort of empire revival thing
It’s only a map of how our mainland has corresponding maritime rights nothing even more. and you try to portray it like it’s a world domination doctrine, basing your arguments on an agreement we didnt sign. That’s just trolling.
abki12c@reddit
I'm going to leave this here
electrical-stomach-z@reddit
Using a Persian word for your turkish homeland...
TurkOmbre@reddit
I love the blue color on the map, it is our Mavi vatan 🙏🏼
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
It's not though
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
First of all, remove that ugly face from there. Mavi Vatan long precedes him and he did his best to undermine any military or statesman
And it’s exactly what I said, a map of maritime rights in accordance with or mainland. What’s your point?
VisibleReport5008@reddit
frozen conflict. Greece says its international law, turkey says they didnt sign it. bla bla
Yavannia@reddit
Didn't sign it but enforce it in the Black Sea.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Turkey doesn’t say international law didn’t exist but there is a clause for special occasions which clearly apply to Aegean sea but it doesn’t work in favor of greeks so they chose to ignore it.
CalydonianBoar@reddit
Thus, let's go to the Hague and let the Judges decide on if the Aegean is a special occasion or not. Why not go to the International Courts?
sht-magnet@reddit
Why tho? Turkey is strong enough to keep the status quo which works for them.
What is in it for them?
Kitsooos@reddit
Because the status quo doesn't really serve them.
Despite the fancy bullshit they say every now and then, they are de-facto locked out of the Aegean. They are not using it in any way, other than just passing through, which every other country also does.
gibigibi34@reddit
it not like any side is using it beside passage and fishing. the reason 2 side is so stingy is gas depots in the sea. nothing more nothing less.
CalydonianBoar@reddit
Yes, apparently Turkey is ok with the current status quo
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
I am sure judges from Hague would judge the situation without any prejudice and it would go completely fairly. Since the both countries aren’t in the same union or anything.
CalydonianBoar@reddit
No judge is without prejudice, from the lowest to the highest court. The point is have a third party to lift the impasse we are in.
Two things I can tell you for sure; (1) the Hague Court will decide on the UNCLOS basis (also taking into account past or special cases) and (2) Greece wont get the 100% of her demands. The (2) is the reason why Greece would refuse to go to the Courts if for some reason Turkey agreed to go to Hague.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Could be bro. You could be right but with deliberate turkophobia shown from eu, again and again. With how they reacted to Turkey stopping a genocide in cyprus. I would say neither turkish government nor turkish public would be very keen on the idea.
VisibleReport5008@reddit
We didnt enforce it, we made deal with the other countries at blacksea. And we didnt made a deal with greece, cause there are conflicts🤷🏻♂️
Yavannia@reddit
So basically you accept it exists and apply it where it suits you and you don't think that's hypocritical?
strawberry2nd@reddit
That's how things work, man. Were you born yesterday? Unless you possess an overwhelming military advantage capable of taking on Turkey, you simply cannot impose your will on a neighboring country—regardless of international law or any other justification. I’m not talking about being equals or slightly stronger; I mean a disparity in military capacity akin to the gap between Armenia and Turkey today. Don't be delusional; neither your great-great-grandchildren nor their descendants will ever see a 12-mile limit in the Aegean—which would effectively mean a Turkish ship leaving the Black Sea couldn't reach the Mediterranean without Greek permission. This is nothing more than an idiotic pipe dream, much like your fantasy of reclaiming Istanbul. You'd better pray there isn't a world war or some European-wide upheaval within the next hundred years, or you'll end up losing the islands and Western Thrace too.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
There is no hypocrisy. It would be hypocritical if we had the same island situation with another country and act the exact opposite.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Learn to read and understand the person you are talking to…
VisibleReport5008@reddit
The most normal thing a country can do. Welcome to earth. But yeah it is hypocritical.
Successful-Biggy@reddit
What u guys have signed is 3 miles btw.
ManufacturerSlow6474@reddit
Here in Greece we prepare since Cyprus invasion for a situation like this. We will fight them.
Famous_Pause7150@reddit
And you would lose, the war is bad for both parties the only solution to this problem is at the table. We can delay or solve but a war breaking means we both fucked. Don’t be an idiot, don’t let this idea of some weird religious fanaticism blind you.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Good 😂
Early-Show2886@reddit
Yes, as an Albanian, you have to add your comment to every single post, right? Yeah...of course.
Ujemegaz@reddit
I don't represent Albanians. Plus, none of your business what i do. This is a public forum.
Early-Show2886@reddit
LOL,
trisul-108@reddit
That is the primary reason why Turkey seeks to retain control over parts of Cyprus. It's just about projecting Turkish claims into the Mediterranean to gain access to gas reserves. Nothing to do with "protecting Turks" or any such BS.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Of course turkey has strategic reasons for keeping cyprus but the claim it’s doing it for oil is plain stupid. Nobody even knew there was oil until 2000s why would they hang on to the island for 30 years then?
trisul-108@reddit
Initially, it was about neutralising Greece militarily and controlling vast areas of the Mediterranean.
Later, Turkey persists in its military presence in Cyprus due to a geopolitical doctrine that views the island as essential for its national security and regional dominance, independent of the ethnic conflict. All this is amplified by the fossil fuel resources, which Turkey wants to prevent going to Cyprus.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
If it was about strategic interest they would pull back after the initial embargo’s. Years of embargoes destroyed the turkish economy for decades. Why would they go through with it?+ turkish government supported reunification and allowed referendums, i don’t know if i have to remind you but greeks were the ones that rejected it. Twice.
FatherMozgus@reddit
I know you wont listen to me but just because all of you are trained on the same propaganda bullshit let me just say that the reunification plan was not rejected because the Greeks don’t want reunification, it was rejected because it was a shit plan
CluelessExxpat@reddit
I doubt the plan was shit. EU, UN, US... Anyone who was involved supported the plan. They would not have if it was that "shit" as you nicely put it.
FatherMozgus@reddit
The US and EU supported the Dayton Accords as well and BiH is still not a functioning country 30 years later
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Calling the plan simply “shit” ignores that many diplomats and scholars viewed it as a serious compromise attempt in a very difficult dispute. I don't claim Annan Plan was perfect but it was as good as it could get.
Dayton Agreement ended a really, REALLY violent war. Sure, the political structure that was created led to issues. But these issues are not worse than a war that was resulting in the deaths of thousands of people.
If Annan Plan was passed, there would be next steps to further fix and amend other issues. Look where we are right now; further militarization of the island by both sides and war seems inevitable.
I will die on the "Annan Plan was the best shot at unification" hill.
FatherMozgus@reddit
Serious compromise for who? The Greek side was the one that was being asked to compromise the most and it’s not exactly close.
First of all, permanent political equality between GCs and TCs while one is 80% of the population and the other is less than 20% is crazy. Giving the TCs 50% of the senate, veto powers, 50% of the courts is obscene when they are such a small minority, it would arguably make them the single most officially privileged minority in the entire world. It is extremely undemocratic to allow a small segment of the population the ability to impose itself politically on the vast majority just because they belong to one community.
Secondly, one of the most major demands of the GC community was the removal of Turkish guarantees and Turkish military personnel. Which remained open ended so this is again unsatisfactory.
Turkish settlers would receive citizenship and others would receive residence permits. Permanent change of the demographics and legalisation of what is internationally recognised as a war crime.
When it comes to Greek Cypriot property being returned, the number was negligible. 80% of property in the North was Greek Cypriot and was stolen and appropriated therefore this is legalisation of that theft. Not only that but there would be a quota where the GC population of the Northern constituent state would not exceed 18%. Imagine stealing half of someone’s country and then dictating to him that he is not allowed to return because of their quota.
In return for all of this 8% of the occupied lands would be given to the Southern constituent state. So what was asked from the Greek Cypriots was to degrade themselves to second class citizens, give the keys over to the minority Turkish population, accept and legalise the consequences of invasion, occupation and ethnic cleansing and accept and recognise the presence of the Turkish military and Turkey’s new guarantor rights.
Turkey tried to ruin this country, it indiscriminately killed us, kicked us out of our homes, desecrated our churches, stole our properties and housed settlers inside in order to permanently change the demographics of the island, kept fucking with us at every chance and somehow we managed to survive and thrive. Annan was imposed on Cyprus because Cyprus is a weak and small country. No one would have asked for anything as humiliating as that from any “big” countries. You say that because Annan was not accepted we are headed towards war. Maybe you are right but I can also guarantee that if the Annan plan was accepted the blatant humiliation and disenfranchisement of the Greek community would have lead to war much sooner.
So yes this was a shit fucking plan
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Yeah i mean I can see that you are just another nationalist. Believe or think whatever you want. I am indifferent to the island's issues and it seems things will be resolved with a war.
Suit yourself.
FatherMozgus@reddit
I am far from a nationalist, I despise nationalists and nationalism with a passion. I want a solution but I want one that is fair and makes sense. The Annan plan wasn’t a solution but a surrender plan where the Greek Cypriot side gets barely anything, the government becomes a dysfunctional mess vulnerable to Turkish Cypriot wishes and whims and the Turkish Cypriot side gets all it could have ever wanted. 18% of the population having equal political power to 82%? Where else could this be seen as fair or logical and not a recipe for disaster? Please go ahead and explain to me how this is a remotely workable plan.
CluelessExxpat@reddit
Nationalism comes in many different shapes and forms. You may not realize it but you are definitely nationalistic. The fact that you gave Dayton Agreement as a comparison and claimed it was bad shows how you feel about unification. You want dominance of your side, which inherently goes against the spirit of unification to begin with. You are looking for "fairness". There is no agreement that ends a disagreement where both sides come to the conclusion it was fair.
Annan Plan would require Turkey to pull back its army entirely, albeit gradually, still though, entirely. I think you fail to realize what that means for a country like Turkey, that is BURNING with the flame of nationalism, that takes its "national interests" disgustingly serious.
Say whatever you want, Annan Plan was a missed golden opportunity and Cyprus' accession to EU was the final coffin to the dreams of unification. Now? The only solution is war, which it seems both sides are very happy to head towards and push for.
FatherMozgus@reddit
You don’t know what you are talking about. The Annan plan foresaw that Turkey would gradually reduce its forces over 20 fucking years down to 650 by the 2020s with no actual date for the total removal. So you are wrong, the Annan plan NEVER included a provision about the total withdrawal of Turkish forces. The Annan plan didn’t even remove Turkey’s right of military intervention.
Not to mention the political equality of the 2 sides despite one being a much smaller minority and that side also legalising 10s of thousands of Turkish settlers as citizens. This in effect would reduce the whole of the country into a Turkish puppet state.
You can also continue fearmongering but no war is coming. Turkey is not opening a front with the EU and Israel. And the illegal occupier settler state is not getting recognition and will remain isolated and stagnant for the foreseeable future. We made the right choice.
Few_Winter_3453@reddit
Because? What part of it was “shit” exactly? You guys are the same with every single conflict. You don’t see turks as human. You are always pushing your maximalist demands. Even a single minute detail isn’t according to what you want you guys tear it all down. There will be an agreement with every single greek turkish conflict when greeks get rid of this stupid mind set and be ready to make bi-sided concessions.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
if by "neutralizing" you mean stop the genocidal eoka cunts on whom the western powers couldnt put a leash on, or rather didnt prefer to further their interests, for decades yea, we needed to put an end to that "military".
since the arrival of TSK the greek terrorism on island is 0, and that's not due to your decision or will
No_Idea_479@reddit
EOKA did nothing wrong though?
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Wouldn’t be surprised if you think the same about Mussolini lol
How you brainwash yourselves is astonishing
No_Idea_479@reddit
But they didn't. IIRC, they had killed no Turks from the period of 1964–1974 (after the intercommunal violence and before you guys invaded them).
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
Yea yea, “intercommunal violence“
I mean I could respect someone with brains, this is just pathetic. Their entire organization’s aim was to kill all the Turks on the island, literally, this is not my speculation or anything.
First time ever I see someone standing up for Eoka of all things btw. Congratulations. Just when I think I have seen the bottom of Europeans’ hypocritical, glass housed arrogant and outright ignorant stances on international matters, you have shown me a new low.
Be proud of yourself.
No_Idea_479@reddit
I am proud of myself for being educated on the subject.
bruhmanbruuh@reddit
You know who else is NEVER mentioned?
The Turks killed by Denktas/TMT. At least in Greece Grivas remains a questionable figure, as he should be. His main targets were Greek leftists after all.
And of course they will never, NEVER mention the fact that the Invasion of Cyprus killed, raped , looted and displaced more people in a month and a half than the British,EOKA,TMT managed to in 20 FUCKING years. I have said it a million times in this sub and I will say it again ; there is a reason every country condemned Turkey after Attila 2.
The whole Cyprus problem stinks. Most Turks, being on the brainwashing nationalist state they are , refuse to see it.
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
yea yea yeaa either a troll or baiter, or just straight up stupid and evil, both bad combos.
bloody christmas was initiated by greeks after months and years of bullying. because the Turks on the island fought back does not make define it as "both sides fought".
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
“Such bs”… very rich after the genocide in morea and the attempt in cyprus with eoka
Ujemegaz@reddit
Sweet_Bridge_3001@reddit
Anyone who thinks there will be an actual hot war between two US client states & NATO members is an idiot. EU wouldnt allow it either.
If it goes that far, US will mediate and whichever side has more soft power will get what they want.
RedCetus@reddit
If Bahceli says the sky is blue, be sure to check for yourself
FOSS-game-enjoyer@reddit
Why would we have a beef with Greece? Why oh why? They are staying at their side and we are staying on ours of the sea. Noone gets hurt if everybody stays and keeps their fucking business
Downtown-Figure6434@reddit
They think us staying on our side of the sea is an invasion of their sovereignty based on a clause in the unclos we did not agree to and we are violating international law because of it
Conveniently ignoring that you are only bound by the agreements you sign and their claims would roughly mean 95% of the aegean is theirs, smth that will never happen but it’s good business for France military industry in the meantime, for good western brotherhood vibes of course, nothing to do with how France is actively trying to fill the void of USA’s fuckeries
Early-Show2886@reddit
Isn't that what you Greeks want? When you read your comments and provocations everywhere, especially from the Greek diaspora living in English-speaking countries, you're stirring up hatred against Turkey. So, my question to you, OP: Isn't that exactly what you Greeks want?