With European nations switching to Linux, do you think professonal software companies will follow
Posted by Additional-Sky-7436@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 179 comments
I doubt European governments migrating to Linux would sway the development plans of software companies like Adobe, but governments buy a lot of software licenses for company like Esri, Autodesk, and Bentley. Not to mention accounting software, and plenty of other commonly used business utilities.
But, even if governments themselves aren't big enough to push companies to start porting to Linux, the governments will have to have clauses in their various contracts that contractors and consultants will have to use software that is compatible with the government's systems. If a nation's government migrates to Linux, that will be a big driver to push many private companies in that nation to also need to migrate, or at least maintain compatibility.
papy66@reddit
Linux pass from 2% market share to almost 6% in just 5 years, if we double that in the next 5 years, linux will be at more than 10% and i expect that almost every software companies will be interested to take this market. But i m even more optimistic because i see so many people getting pissed of Windows and switching to Linux lately.
Actually, it was already the case when mac was 10%, so I can't imagine that most companies wil not follow considering the projection for the next decades.
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
source? without logical fallacies though
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
I think he's referring to the recent Steam hardware survey, which is just going to be a small niche compared with the full computer market.
It's still an important niche though. And when the Steam Machine comes out it's likely going to be the best selling video game console this year with the largest games library by a factor of 100. It's going to bring over a lot of game developers.
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
What framework on steam will beat ms in time to market to bring game developers?
16092006@reddit
Developers, especially indie, have an easier time promoting, selling and uploading their games on steam, it's the standard tbh. Make a game -> put it on steam -> grow base on social media -> first 100 players in no time. Additionally, if the console does well, developers will don't have to worry about remaking games for a console and PC version.
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
quantity over quality
16092006@reddit
?
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
https://medium.com/nyc-design/why-publishers-leave-steam-a-make-your-own-platform-trend-f747922635d2
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
Most developers aren't Epic Games or EA though
Oerthling@reddit
That article is from 2018 and obsolete.
Publishers obviously would prefer to sell via their own portal.
And yet they have been returning to Steam, because Steam dominates and players prefer Steam.
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
Proton, which is capable of running a lot of Windows native games on Linux better than Windows can
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
The framework on steam that is beating MS and bring game developers is that Steam is the only games platform that hasn't gone full enshittified.
It just does the things it's supposed to. The "don't be shit" is a wildly controversial concept for every other major games platform company to understand.
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
I like reason and logic over hype and i see there is more hype in steam ecosystem https://youtu.be/PK1wWvI4-Vs?si=lgDMF6EQN-LyDs71
HumanSimulacra@reddit
You're clearly very critical but you clearly also don't seem to be very familiar with the topic.. You're arguing on a weak foundation and thus seemingly miss the very topic you're arguing about. The video you linked does not support the argument you think it does, it's only tangentially relevant.
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
The video you linked does not support the argument you think it does, it's only tangentially relevant. Oh I can add a lot myself. Back your statement up
marrsd@reddit
It's also a favourable niche, given that Linux users are not typically gamers. I'd be more dismissive of it If it was GitHub usage stats.
Hot_Cauliflower_8060@reddit
For many office workers, you are essentially opening a web portal. The OS barely matters.
When my office tried this a decade ago, people were annoyed that they didn't have Word and Excel. OpenOffice was the office suite mum has at home, if you like. They wanted the real thing.
But things have gotten even more online, and dedicated programs matter even less.
You will always have the Specialists. Graphic Designers who must have Adobe (but right now are trying to figure out alternatives) or Engineers with AutoCad or something. Those guys get the exception to run Macs or Windows.
majikguy@reddit
I think the bigger issues are more to do with device management and access control kind of stuff. Active Directory sucks, but there are still good reasons to use it and there's not a single clear-cut equivalent for a fully/mostly Linux-based environment. There are things like FreeIPA that handle a good chunk of functionality, but you can't really set up an environment that is as tightly integrated with Linux workstations with the current tooling without a lot of work. Whether this is the worst thing in the world is another question, since a lot of issues in Windows environments come from how easy it can be for an attacker to move around in the network, but it requires a different style of setup that is harder to transition than just getting your users accustomed to a different start menu.
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
I bet you could put something together reasonably easily with Ansible, it would still be far more work the first time but once someone does it they could script it to make it pretty easy for everyone else
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
Those guys are the exception, generally. But in government It's not exactly hard to find engineers using AutoCAD or Revit.
CMDRRaijiin@reddit
We use solid works and mastercam at work, we're the only people that have desktop pcs running windows because those programs only work on windows unfortunately. I am running bazzite at home on mine and am trying to learn how to use new software to do the same things.
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
Pro tip, Solidworks now has a $100 per year subscription tier that offers their cloud based suite, as much as I hate subscribing to CAD it saved me tearing my hair out dealing with FreeCAD or having to run Windows as a hobbyist just to access one application, and it's pretty decent overall
Indolent_Bard@reddit
Isn't there a steam version of solid works that works pretty well on Linux?
Dangerous-Report8517@reddit
I'm not going to claim that they replace every use case but Solidworks and OnShape both have web based options for CAD now that are pretty much as good as the base desktop experience, so even some applications like this are moving in that direction. Add in web based remote desktop solutions and you might find that cases where Windows is still necessary turn into a couple of remote Windows servers running only a couple of specific apps instead of most of a company's machines being Windows
wzcx@reddit
I’m in CAM programming for aerospace- my software of choice is windows only but uses QT
Indolent_Bard@reddit
How does it work with wine or proton?
wzcx@reddit
I can’t get it to work as yet. I haven’t tried in a few years though!
Indolent_Bard@reddit
ProtonDB says it might work.
wzcx@reddit
I didn’t name the software, did you check my comment history? Anyway it’s hyperMILL, and apparently there is a codemeter service for Linux that I could try for the dongle.
Neither-Phone-7264@reddit
Sorry, they're from the future, excuse them
spikyness27@reddit
It's not worth it. Easier to support a handful of users on a supported platform than Frankenstein a solution.
wittywalrus1@reddit
Governments aren't migrating those people to linux. Not yet at least. If they need Windows, they get it.
They're migrating people that do normal office stuff - browsing, word processing, email, etc.
And as pointed out, a lot of these activities are performed through the web browser anyway now, so the OS isn't the issue it used to be.
elictronic@reddit
We already get more powerful PCs for this. It’s really annoying when a new engineer gets assigned the generic pc and can’t complete much of their expected work.
MatchingTurret@reddit
This is a very small minority of government workers. The vast majority works in some kind of administrative function or as teachers.
intrinsicgreenbean@reddit
In my experience government workers are usually several versions behind the current specialist software and their purchasing departments aren't looking to upgrade any time soon. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of that software would run in wine. If I had to support this stuff, I would probably be deploying web containers, with the added benefit of likely needing fewer licenses. In fact, I'm considering doing that myself for my own computer because I have one windows software with an obnoxiously limited license.
hisvin@reddit
Using Autocad and Revit...On a remote Azure session...
Straight_Mistake_364@reddit
I've been told that many CAD users these days are turning to Brics-cad, as the licenses are cheaper and they still sell perpetual licences and not just subscriptions.
And there are Bricscad versions for Linux..
lilguy2002@reddit
This is not even remotely true. Not even a teensy tiny little bit. I literally only ever see this claim repeated in Linux discussions. It does not reflect the reality of enterprise IT in the least.
nobby-w@reddit
If you go back a few decades the engineers and graphic artists were the ones using expensive Mac, Sun or Silicon Graphics workstations to run their software that wouldn't run on PCs. In a pinch it's not such a big deal to have them running Windows for their specialised application and then run up the corporate Linux desktop in a VM.
TheBazlow@reddit
This is one of the big points that I think is understated, Excel for example only supports JavaScript scripting if it is accessed on the web while only supporting scripting with BASIC on desktop and if you want to use the copilot button, the file must be saved to a location that copilot can access like your onedrive and not somewhere locally on your PC.
They're literally making new features now that only work if you open your files using the web browser.
MyRedLiner@reddit
Adobe will sink like Titanic.
enRchi@reddit
we can only hope.
flatline000@reddit
Anything that runs on a server is already on Linux.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
But there is an awful lot of software that isn't running on servers.
TU4AR@reddit
Just so I understand your question:
Are you asking if software creators (let's say adobe) will start creating native Linux apps?
Or are you asking if adobe will start using Linux in house?
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
Adobe isn't likely to be affected by European governments migrating to Linux.
A better example would be Esri. Esri sells a lot of licenses to governments large and small all over the world, and their software licenses are very expensive. So, of they don't support that market then they will likely lose it, and if they lose it for a long enough period of time then eventually all of the infrastructure investment will be migrated over to someone else and they simply won't be able to claw back in.
And what's more, if they lose the European government market, then countless large and small civil consultant companies will have to make a new investment into software that's compatible with what their clients need.
These platform companies (Esri, Microsoft, Adobe, QuickBooks, etc.) all maintain their monopolies through sunk cost lock in. It's easier and cheaper for organizations to keep paying the monopoly tax then to deal with the hassle of using software that isn't compatible with their partners and clients software.
But Europe has the ability right now to put that lock in at risk. If the smaller nuche monopoly companies don't support the Governmental market in Europe, those niche monopolies could collapse.
philosophical_lens@reddit
All software is moving to browser based web apps. All these compatibility issues will be non-issues in a few years. Microsoft, Adobe, etc. are all actively working to get to parity between their desktop apps and web apps. They're already like 75% of the way there.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
That's not reasonable will many professional applications.
philosophical_lens@reddit
Which applications? Microsoft Excel and Adobe Photoshop are both professional applications actively working towards web parity.
nelmaloc@reddit
Anything that needs to interact with the local computer, like control software.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
Microstation.
asm_lover@reddit
I send a montly request to clip studio paint for them to support linux.
Spez-is-dick-sucker@reddit
I sadly think eu wants to put shit into systemd and devs will obey as doggies and implement it instead of fighting against it.
Tomatensakul@reddit
if they also start using linux in f.e. schools, then this becomes much more interesting i think
airmantharp@reddit
Adobe can barely make their software work as it is…
Dang-Kangaroo@reddit
i think not. Instead, they will try to prevent governments from switching to open source.
JumpPackPenguin@reddit
They don't switch.
Iseeapool@reddit
No because, it’s never happening, at least not the way you think. Here in France there was a ministry note in 2012, leading to the foundation of the SILL initiative and a law in 2016, both instructing to favor opensource software at the state level to garantee technical independence from major software vendors i.e MS and Adobe.
As a matter of fact, 10 years later, we still massively depend on those Mother fuckers because our politicians are corrupt as hell.
leonredhorse@reddit
Another aspect of the EU initiative is trying to move away from US companies in general. It will take time but they may seek alternatives.
16092006@reddit
Add to that the GitHub is falling, and a German option is rising
StreetCream6695@reddit
Whats the German option named you are talking about?
mikaelld@reddit
I guess it’s codeberg.
StreetCream6695@reddit
Thanks. Didnt knew it was German
commodore512@reddit
Germany's Europe's California.
They like solar, but have coal plants and hate nuclear. They're too both preoccupied with avoiding to do new bad things, they make it easy to keep on doing the old bad thing because it's "necessary" because the good scary thing (nuclear) is too scary.
France is what California should be.
yonasismad@reddit
However, the Linux Foundation is based in the US. Linus is in the US too. Pretty much all of the hardware that those governments will run on, at least the CPUs and GPUs, are also from the US.
Not much of a switch away from the US, imho
Oerthling@reddit
Linux is open source and open source is ultimately international.
Where the FSF is headquartered isn't that important.
The hardware is from Asia. While companies like Intel are in the US, that's not where the actual manufacturing is happening.
Some of the critical chip design software is actually from Europe (Netherlands).
yonasismad@reddit
? If your stack relies on 100% of its critical components from the US, then you can't be independent from the US. All the GPUs and CPUs, as well as the firmware, are designed in the US. Therefore, it would be rather trivial to add kill switches. Of course, it matters that the person who decides what goes into the kernel lives in the US, because they can be coerced into letting vulnerable patches slip in.
Oerthling@reddit
Nobody is independent. The degree of dependence just varies.
And as I said before, the hardware, while marketed and brand managed from the US is actually manufactured in Asia.
yonasismad@reddit
Again: good luck running your hardware without any firmware. Might as well just put actual sand in your computer case at that point.
Oerthling@reddit
What is your point?
Nobody is denying dependency on the US. In fact that's the acknowled problem with the way the Trump administration is going hostile vs Europe.
All I'm saying is that the US isn't independent either.
Good luck with that cool firmware doing anything without hardware it's designed for.
yonasismad@reddit
Replacing software written by one US company with software written by another US company does nothing to make you more independent of the US. And yes, it matters that the Linux Foundation is based in the US. Look at all the distributions that are now being forced to implement age verification and have no real recourse because they are based in the US.
Germany seems really happy that they now get to do for others what the US did for them over the last couple of decades. They also continue to offer the US pretty much wholehearted support (which is not surprising, given that it is still in the EU's interests to align themselves with the US).
NurmalMan@reddit
I think you are misunderstanding the fact that Linux is open source. Anybody can split off Linux and make their own using it as a base. The data is free and you can do whatever you want with it. Some distros are adding age verification BY CHOICE because they still want to be able to do buisness with them. There are already some distros splitting off because of that.
yonasismad@reddit
No, I understand perfectly well. I think you guys have incredible difficulty thinking more than one step ahead.
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
The Linux foundation isn't a company, genious, it's a foundation, and the source is there and you can legally fork It. Nobody really uses mainline Linux. If you use OpenSUSE (european btw) you are using THEIR kernel fork. Not that hard to understand buddy
And you can fork these projects, "the distros are implementing..." What? I don't care. You can literally remove that and create your own version while keep getting the security changes and improvements as it's open source, it's called a fork
Oerthling@reddit
Supporting age verification has nothing at all to do with the FSF and where it's headquartered. Age verification is being provided so that users can use it in jurisdictions where that's required. Nobody at a FSF office had anything to do with that.
Linux is open source. A developer in Athens has the same software access as a developer in Chicago.
It was in both US and Europes interests to be allied. But it takes only 1 fascist clown moron to break that.
The "wholehearted support" means managing the idiot in the White House while minimizing the damage he causes.
yonasismad@reddit
I didn't say they had anything to do with it, but where someone is located does matter because they are subject to state coercion, even if they don't want to.
Nothing broke. Still allied just like before. The EU continues to support the US in its wars. They continue to buy tens of billions of Euros worth of US weapons, etc.
What an incredibly naive understanding of the world. Nation states are driven by interests and not morals.
Oerthling@reddit
Never said anything about nations and morals.
The EU doesn't support the US with its illegal bombarding in Iran and is rather pissed at the fallout.
US using its established bases in Europe doesn't mean the host countries support it. The Trump administration withdrawing troops from German bases is hilariously shooting itself in the foot. As the current situation underlines the main purpose of those bases is supporting US global force projection, not the defense of Europe.
It's exactly because of their own interests and the now strained relations to the US that European nations (et al) are forced to disentangle.
yonasismad@reddit
But it does... Spain forbid the US to use their bases while Germany doesn't. Go figure. They are also buying Palantir to surveil the people, etc.
Correct. However, both the EU and Germany are excited that they finally have the opportunity to wage war themselves. In the words of the horse itself:
"Upholding the international rules-based order will remain of utmost importance, both in our interest and as an expression of our values. But a new international order will be formed in the second half of this decade and beyond. Unless we shape this order– in both our region and beyond – we will be passive recipients of the outcome of this period of interstate competition with all the negative consequences that could flow from this, including the real prospect of full-scale war. "
https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/e6d5db69-e0ab-4bec-9dc0-3867b4373019_en?filename=White%20paper%20for%20European%20defence%20%E2%80%93%20Readiness%202030.pdf
They are openly stating that the EU must continue its imperialism, otherwise it could backfire and compromise its interests.
eljeanboul@reddit
They are openly stating that the EU must continue its imperialism
They are saying that they need to be proactive and be active participants in a rapidly changing world, which is what you should expect from any functional government these days, they are absolutely not "openly stating" that they will wage war or continue their imperialism as you say. That they will in fact use this language to support imperialist endeavours is another question altogether, but in this whole thread you've been very disingenuous in your arguments and distorting reality to fit your narrative, as with you pretending that this milquetoast statement is something that it isn't.
To get back to the subject matter, you're whining that European countries, who have all been aligned to varying degrees with US international policy in the past and have varying degrees of connection to the US economy, are not all completely shutting ties all of a sudden with the US, wrecking their own economies, and I don't know, magically springing the whole technological stack into existence on European soil. It will take time, different countries have different room for maneuver, and some need to do it in a more subtle and multi-stage way. But there is definitely a movement in that direction, which was unthinkable just a couple years ago, and while after the first Trump presidency the EU was all too happy to pretend things had gotten back to normal, they now realize that there are deeper issues in the system.
Moving to Linux and to open-source solutions is definitely a move in the right direction. If the FSF starts getting pressured by the US, they will either move to friendlier countries, or the code will be forked. If the US decides to withhold firmware on chips from the rest of the world, Europe will have to come up with its own solutions, but America will have a hard time designing any new chips without ASML's collaboration, and manufacturing them without China's help.
DoubleOwl7777@reddit
good luck making your chips without asml machines...
pppjurac@reddit
No unless there is full suites of enterprise desktop, user, server, printer, scanner management software are made for Linux desktops.
You wastly understimate how important are things like Active Directory and similliar solutions for enterprise/goverment environments.
Even if software is web based, it might only works reliably on Edge or Chrome with specific plugins.
It is not easy.
Vogete@reddit
Well....my take is not in the near future. First of all, a lot of excel 98 macros are running the world, and getting rid of those is problematic. Similarly, there's a lot of legacy software that just needs to run. Of course you could use thin clients and remote software for this, and that might be a good solution but sometimes it's just not realistic.
Secondly, and this is a bigger problem, non-techy people freak out if you change their desktop icons, or their start menu. Essentially they are extremely resistant towards change. You'd think you could order them to just do the change, but companies don't often do that, because it might compromise productivity. I've seen this happen at multiple companies, you'd think they have no choice, but somehow the company craves in and let's them keep that windows XP installation for a few more years.
Europe is moving towards Linux at an extremely slow pace. All those cases you read that the German and Danish government are switching? Yeah they are an unimportant tiny 15-person department, not the entire government. By the time they switch 200 people over, the US has a new president and suddenly American companies like Microsoft will not be radioactive anymore.
I want the Linux move to happen. I just don't think companies and even governments are as committed to it as we think or want.
My workplace just doubled down on Microsoft Azure and Office 365. In fact, they want to convert all the Linux users to Windows users. Two years ago they wanted to get rid of all Linux servers in favor of Windows servers. We blocked that, but their plan was a full Microsoft overtake.
What I'm trying to say is companies don't care. Nobody ever got fired for choosing ~IBM~ Microsoft.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
I think you are right that the speed of the transition will greatly depend on geo-politics.
But I'm a lot more pessimistic on that than you. I think the US is headed to a Soviet Union style political collapse on the next 5 years. I don't think the US as we know it will exist in 2030. And if that happens then European nations, and many other nations, will scramble to fill all kinds of vacuums.
lilguy2002@reddit
Not to be a Debbie Downer but I think folks are getting way ahead of themselves in this regard. What governments can do is not super relevant to private, for-profit companies. You also get stuck on the idea of Linux being "free" and forget that these migrations are actually preposterously expensive and achieve nothing in terms of revenue generation. So obviously the vast majority of companies see nothing to gain and quite a lot to lose.
Everything is compatible with everything, pretty much. My company is a Windows shop but our contractors can use whatever they want. There are ways of accessing our resources on any platform.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
I'm a lot of industries, particularly civil industries, everything is certainly not compatible with everything.
In fact, things generally don't work well together at all.
FizzBuzz3000@reddit
Mmmmmm-no. Not likely. Sunken-cost fallacy is gonna play a major role in that so I don't think companies will do such a thing.
f0xsky@reddit
the biggest hurdle is GPU drivers. And for many years nvidia would drag its feet. Valve/Steam spent a better part of the deckade bringing games to linux and that really makes it viable now. And with AI and local AI dev there is real pressure to improve drivers on Linux. Most of the things i care about work fine on bazzite. Also apple releasing its own complete suit of creative aps also puts pressure on adobe and the like.
DoubleOwl7777@reddit
*nvidia drivers...for me on amd the gpu works perfectly, so well that i never even think about drivers.
f0xsky@reddit
I got an A770 to replace my aging 1080ti. Works great in linux.
West_Ad_9492@reddit
I also use bazzite and i have never had issues. How is GPU the biggest hurdle?
f0xsky@reddit
Not GPU, but drivers for them. You can read up on all the issues devs have when porting games to Linux. And it's generally not been worth the effort to port games over from windows.
West_Ad_9492@reddit
i think valve/steam will disagree
f0xsky@reddit
they are using an AMD chip, and to try to win some market share AMD has them opensourced, same with Intel. Until nvidia fully opensources theirs its going to be an uphill battle. But the catch is that if linux support for nvidia consumer GPUs gets better that might make the demand for them even higher. Be it for AI, VDI, render farms, etc. For now if you want commercial support you have to get their quadro line cards which are significantly more expensive.
craigleary@reddit
Change is slow and in the end workers need to get stuff done so it will always depend on how easy the migration is, what is best to get everything done and ability to train/retrain workers if needed. Don’t discount inertia and technical debt. I say this as a Linux and FreeBSD administrator who’s daily driver is windows now with mobaxterm.
RandyRandomsLeftNut@reddit
No.
natermer@reddit
In the software stack here is most important to least important:
User getting work done
Applications needed by user to get work done
Other software the application needs to work
OS
Kernel
In other words getting work done is the most important thing. That dictates the application used, which dictates the dependency the software needs to run, which runs on a OS, which runs on a kernel.
If governments go around dictating that #4 is what they are going to use, but number 3 or 2 doesn't exist for that OS... then they are not going to get work done.
That means a lot of angry bureaucrats, lots of angry politicians, and lots of angry citizens in public.
This means that if some government desk jockey needs Windows only Adobe software to get their job done then they are going end up needing a Windows OS.
Period, end of story.
Oerthling@reddit
Not the end of the story at all.
You forgot
Also for the increasing amount of modern software that's running on a server and accessed via browsers 4 and 5 hardly matters. The browser is the platform, the OS is just the driver layer for the browser and an icon the user clicks to start the browser.
lilguy2002@reddit
I already replied to another commenter about this, but this claim is not even remotely true. Not even a little bit.
iluvatar@reddit
Switching to Linux? That happened 25 years ago. Linux won. The entire world uses Linux - professional software companies included. The one exception (and the one I think you're talking about) is on the enterprise desktop. But even that has mostly switched too. Linux desktops are very common in the corporate world. Which is largely moving away from the desktop anyway and doing everything through the browser, at which point it largely doesn't matter which OS is running anyway. Yes, any organisation above a certain size will still have some Windows desktops for certain applications. But the number of those applications and the number of desktops needed to run them is shrinking.
Dontdoitagain69@reddit
no one is switching to linux, clickbait is crack
MelioraXI@reddit
France government is.
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
false. the government only swithes 150 to 200 workstation in order to test linux.
Horsemeatburger@reddit
Nope. Linux already has a solid place in the French government, for example the Military Police:
https://techhq.com/news/france-digital-sovereignty-linux-migration/
DirectorDirect1569@reddit
The military police is independant from the government. Only the gendarmerie uses linux. If the experience was so great tell me why the rest of the army and all french services are still on windows.
In 2008, they planned to replace open office by MS office, nothing has been done.
The educational ministry has just signed a new contract with a MS.
All these information about france swithing to linux are just clickbaits.
PS: I'm french.
Horsemeatburger@reddit
Is it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie
I'm not French, but that sounds a lot like a government agency (i.e., a part of government).
I don't know, I never said the experience is great (it might not be, I understand they also use LibreOffice which I personally find a horrible program).
It's just an example of Linux being used in a French government agency.
As for why it's only them using Linux, who knows, maybe it's because converting one department makes more sense than migrating all parts of government, as it gives valuable insight of difficulties and challenges for future migrations.
And from what is reported, converting the rest to Linux seems pretty much the plan.
Oerthling@reddit
It's not the only one. A danish ministry, the state of Schleswig-Holstein in Germany.
On the German federal level Deutschland-Stack is prioritizing Linux to pursue digital sovereignty.
The Trump administration is making US products unpopular and a risk for other nations.
Canada isn't the only country where US products of all kinds are getting removed from the shelves as it's popularity tanks.
I have said for years that countries like China and Russia will eventually move away from Windows. What rival power is going to tolerate running an OS that's proprietary and controlled by the rival nation.
Now Trump is adding former allies to that list. The Trump administration is openly hostile to European nations.
ipsirc@reddit
IBM will follow.
mmmboppe@reddit
continuation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
Indolent_Bard@reddit
I didn't know IBM existed back then.
marrsd@reddit
Oh, so that's why I'm asked to divulge my race, sex, sexual orientation, and religion whenever I fill in an application form.
OkSignificance5380@reddit
TIL
Robsteady@reddit
I mean, it would be weird if they didn't already use RHEL as their primary OS.
algaefied_creek@reddit
They have their own UNIX and I thought their own custom Linux.
Then again ArchLinuxPOWER exists for IBM PowerPC chips so there is that
Ok-Winner-6589@reddit
Oracle also has their own UNIX (Solaris) and give full Support for Linux because their main OS is a RHEL fork...
algaefied_creek@reddit
Yeah the point is moving away from Oracle though.
Also Solaris 11.4 has been on life support for ages, finally got Java 17 for SPARC, and has security renewed through 2030s but is otherwise DiW
WealthyMarmot@reddit
Would be ironic, given IBM’s pivotal role in launching Microsoft to industry domination
thephotoman@reddit
IBM also owns Red Hat.
16092006@reddit
Playing both sides?
thephotoman@reddit
IBM had a falling out with Microsoft back in the 1990’s. They’ve largely gone their separate ways since then.
high-tech-low-life@reddit
They had a falling out in the '80s when Microsoft pulled out of OS/2. Thry had hedged that bet with Windows 1.
GolemancerVekk@reddit
They didn't "pull out" as much as actively sabotaged it. 😄
atomic1fire@reddit
That or buying a linux company well known for an Enterprise level Linux OS because it's good business to sell licenses.
Tireseas@reddit
IBM only has one side. Specifically their shareholder's interests.
cjc4096@reddit
25 years ago.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
The other question is if the companies do not then how will the government handle those key software requirements? Not all alternatives are equal, if they exist at all.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
Is a challenge for sure, especially if you have a significant historical investment in a particularly GIS or BIM platform.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
Challenge is an understatement. Years of infrastructure and process doesn’t get done overnight. Not to mention specialized software.
Wouldn’t be surprised if they used hybrid solutions for the foreseeable future on non-standard cases.
CursedFeanor@reddit
Except it now basically does with AI and any decent engineer... The transition is now a thousand times easier compared to a few years ago.
marrsd@reddit
I doubt that very much. Easier, yes. Probably not by enough to make the difference.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
Companies are learning that AI isn’t the magic answer.
AI is a tool. Saying AI and an engineer can do something removes the context of all the surrounding problems.
Ex. If adobe refuses to move. Could AI and an Engineer assist? Yes. But they could have before. It was never about the ability for them. Will this be the motivation to now do it? Who knows? If I were to take an educated guess. No.
If you as implying AI will help the government with these changes? Possibly but it’s a tool. You still need IT staff focused on this project and that takes time. Internal made and controlled, independent contracted software sure.
But it’s all not a smooth process. The bigger the scope the messier it becomes. Not to mention a distraction from getting the actual original tasks done. Often you have doubled the work of your employees with meetings, reviews, relearning, etc. That now apply to their entire environment. The impact varies on the level and type of work the staff member does.
DFrostedWangsAccount@reddit
I wouldn't be surprised to learn they started running key infrastructure via WINE.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
Depends on compatibility.
It’s more likely either remote virtual windows or windows system that gets delayed until future analysis. This would be a massive project. Plus they have to get work done normally.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
It needs to be a 20 year transition. It's just legitimately going to take a lot of time. Governments around the world are still using specialty software and databases developed in the 90s and 2000s.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
Agreed.
Oerthling@reddit
Software companies like money. Governments spend a lot of money. Nice regular safe customers for the companies that supply the software. They will offer what governments ask for.
MS itself was more interested in being able to compete in the database market than keeping their software Windows only, thus they offered SQL Server for Linux for a decade already.
They make a lot more money on a MSSQL license than the Windows below that.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
You are confusing issues.
You are assuming they will offer based on money being lost. It really depends on the software and the reasons they already haven’t done it already. They ‘will’ is a bad assumption. They ‘may’ is possible depending on company but it won’t be all and not likely most.
Don’t agree with your MS assumptions beyond they make good profits from their sql options. Would argue the opposite. They are better waiting this out once again. There are reasons that MS is the corporate standard. It has all the tools required. With Linux, they are reinventing the entire wheel. Possible but effort heavy. Versus paying for what works.
Oerthling@reddit
What MS "assumptions"? MSSQL is now a decade old. It's an example where the salespeople making tens of thousands of dollars from selling MSQL didn't want to be held back by a thousand dollar OS licence requirement that nobody wanted, while Linux server containers rule that space. MSSQL hardly needs a full featured OS anyway - it just wants enough to manage its processes, networking and filesystem. Anything else is a waste of resources and needles attack surface.
MS is the corporate standard on the desktop. And the reason is a mixture of first move advantage (going back to a great deal with IBM back on tthe day) and abuse of monopolistic powers. It's been staying there because of inertia and users being used to it.
It's also increasingly pissing off everybody and hemorrhaging users with decisions around AI integration, Recall shenanigans, Windows 11 requirements, etc...
OSX and Linux gradually encroach on MS market share.
On servers it plays catch-up with Linux.
The licence costs are indeed not that important to corporations and institutions. Saving in those would be nice, but it's user training that keeps them bound to MS. But if there's a pain point that justifies a restraining budget to work with Linux (or OSX) instead, they can be gone. Nobody is "loyal" to a US Megacorp nobody really liked to begin with and has been snooping data for ages. Corporate least of all.
Gone2theDogs@reddit
You keep making assumptions on what MS is more interested.
Once MS addresses those problems compared to the costs of transitioning. The migration may fall flat. Doing something out of emotion is a terrible business decision. Already explained a few actual business factors.
It’s not about loyalty. That is another emotional factor you are adding.
PercussionGuy33@reddit
Part of the issue with widespread adoption lies within the education system, not the workplace or government. Schools, Colleges and Universities show students how to complete their project in Word, Excel, Photoshop, etc and not GIMP. Many end users and businesses don't have to re-teach or re-learn.
ParanoidFactoid@reddit
Don't kid yourself about GIMP. It's not ready for prime time yet.
ParanoidFactoid@reddit
An official Affinity port would be nice. But really what's needed is official government access. Not just workstations in government offices, but portal access for citizens using Linux. And access to banks.
jeff00seattle@reddit
Of course Europe should, especially to be compliant with GDPR...
Curious, since there are so many flavors of Linux, which will flavor be most GDPR compliant?
Whichever flavor is chosen, the world will follow. True?
ifq29311@reddit
what for? Windows license cost is insignificant next to the licensing of CAD software. you buy AutoCAD, and then PC and OS that matches it specs, not buy a random PC and then figure out which CAD software it can run. theres zero incentive for those companies to write multiplatform desktop apps.
as for gov't, almost everything is server side sofware, which these days has a web app as front. get rid of some legacy shit and you're OS independent. and they will still use Windows for stuff like graphics or CAD. they're going Linux first, not Microsoft free.
Horsemeatburger@reddit
That's true of course, but the underlying issue of the OS constantly changing and being infused with bug-ridden updates and unwanted features and changes which regular break major functionality doesn't go away just because your config is fixed.
Nor does the issue of Windows using hardware resources inefficiently.
Which, at the end of the day, is also TCO issue.
Well, seems there is, as AutoCAD already runs on Windows and Mac OS. This is in addition to the fact that, in the past, it also ran on SGI IRIX and other UNIX platforms. So the code base is already portable.
The same is true for pretty much any other major CAD software, all which originally came from something else than Windows, and where the non-Windows versions were killed off simply because the demand was no longer there. ISVs don't care much about the underlying OS, they care about customer shares.
It's pretty much a given that, should the demand for Linux variants of these programs increase, ISVs will happily satisfy it by offering their software on Linux if they don't already (like Siemens NX).
Oerthling@reddit
When it came to the windows license fees those weren't even significant for MS as income compared to selling SQL Server licenses. MS itself has offered SQL Server for Linux since 2016.
eljeanboul@reddit
Either that, or competitors will emerge to fill that particular niche.
In reality though what is likely to happen at least at first is proton-type fixes, just like steam did for video games.
no_brains101@reddit
Which is absolutely amazing to be honest. Looking forward to it!
INITMalcanis@reddit
I expect there will be the usual S-curve; the first 5% will take as long as the middle 90%, then the last 5% will take as long again.
xmBQWugdxjaA@reddit
European governments just talk about switching, it's barely changed in my entire life here.
TobiasE97@reddit
Most of our senior developers only know windows and can't even write an if statement in a bash script
caorlinhos@reddit
Honestly, I thinkno they won't follow any soon... And actually it's not European thing, it's global people everywhere is already sick and tired of Micro$oft... I n any case they were already attemprs from public organization to go to Linux years ago, as for instance in Munich, but after a few years Micro$osft bought back his position...
Also Adobe, Autodesk at least are that 'evil'as Micro$oft, and better if they stay away...
Whit-Batmobil@reddit
If I ever get to start my own company, we would using Linux.
Additional-Sky-7436@reddit (OP)
You might want to, but unless you are start a business in the Internet Technology sector, or if you are able to literally do everything yourself -including self funding- then you are going to run into problems quick, because your software is not always going to pay nicely with your partners software.
Whit-Batmobil@reddit
Any particular software that would cause issues?
One of the great things about being a software developer is that some things don’t apply since I can make my own software.
There is always wine (not perfect) and VMs if in a pinch.
DFS_0019287@reddit
I ran a company for 19 years (1999-2018) and we used Linux. However, we were literally able to do everything ourselves, we were in the Internet tech sector, and it was a small company (12 employees).
No interop issues.
ropoko@reddit
Companies follow money. If they start using Linux en masse - software will come. They do not want to miss the opportunity
_wbmr_@reddit
I certainly hope so, or even better: I hope that open source alternatives remove these software companies from the european market completely. No child should ever touch MS Office or any Adobe Software.
We don't need a MS Office or Adobe Photoshop Linux Edition, we need good open souece alternatives.
Fuck proprietary software
edparadox@reddit
As per usual, Adobe and such are an exception not the rule.
People have a very narrow view of what "professional software" means, but, more often than not, Linux is already covered of the default.
olddoodldn@reddit
I wonder what they’re doing about Excel? For many businesses, Excel is absolutely essential and to convert to open source isn’t viable.
Scasne@reddit
I highly doubt Autodesk will, it would require them to actually spend money on changing their software to something customers actually want, so no they won't do that.
RaggaDruida@reddit
Funny that the companies you mentioned are also from the usa and part of what is being cut in this movement, so I don't expect them to develop alternatives.
However, these companies do not even dominate their specific areas and have native European competition that I'd hope would replace them. Autodesk Inventor's competition is NX (German, already runs on Linux), SOLIDWORKS (French), CATIA (French); Bentley's Maxsurf's competition are PIAS (Dutch), Napa (Finnish)...
Direct_Economics_759@reddit
When governments switch they will start requiring their contractors follow suit to be software compatible and match the security requirements. This will drive software developers to make Linux compatible versions of their products or give startups the chance to move in while the old guard is sleeping. The holdouts will be companies that don’t do business with the government, but eventually many of them will switch too as Microsoft, meta and the rest continue to spy on everyone and steal every advantage. But that’s just my take.
West_Ad_9492@reddit
They are starting with euro office. I think the playbook will be first fix the office (euro office) and make employees get used to the new office. Then the switch will be barely noticable.
iBoMbY@reddit
Sorry, it is very unlikely European nations will switch to Linux on a large scale. Maybe one, or two, but I don't think the European Commission, or Germany, for example, can resist the bribes from Microsoft.
PigSlam@reddit
Some, I assume, are good people.
kansetsupanikku@reddit
How would that be related? Any such migration is partial and limited to non-specialized environments. Adobe nor AutoDesk licenses never have been purchased for that computers.
Tireseas@reddit
I kinda hope not. Much rather see new competition emerge. Put pressure on some of these companies we absolutely hate like Adobe whose products we can't seem to break free of.
cojoco@reddit
Plenty of people using WSL and usage is growing strongly, for many the switch won't be all that hard.
SunlightScribe@reddit
Developers were never the problem. Most of our tools worked on Linux even 10 years ago unless you were using a Microsoft product.
cojoco@reddit
So what is it that professional software companies do without developers?
SunlightScribe@reddit
Non-developers are typically prioritized, even at software companies. Developers are simply told to just work within those constraints. It's also difficult to find IT staff that know how to manage Linux infrastructure when it comes to end user desktops.
uponone@reddit
I think they have to. Even with .NET they can run their favorite flavor of Linux and develop UIs in REACT.
As a software engineer with a lot of experience in Windows development, I find Linux and the ecosystem around it to be so much more developer friendly and powerful than developing on Windows.
Enturbulated_One@reddit
Various government contractors may take the opportunity to move away from Microsoft. Maybe. Would be good to see education given some nudges in that direction.
smokingPimphat@reddit
The realities are way worse. At least for the next 10 - 20 years it will be gov't employees running linux with a windows VM running the 90% of critical custom software that actually runs the government. Over time that number MIGHT shrink. But remember the global banking system is still running on mainframes with software written in COBOL.
Office, acrobat and the like are a rounding error in the face of all the data entry / tracking management stuff governments run.
Middlewarian@reddit
I'm using Linux to host my C++ code generator, but I'm looking for something other than Linux long term. Linux devs sometimes try to undermine C++. Some Linux-related projects request donations. I don't ask for donations, but stars on my repo are appreciated.
If you want tools that will last longer than your project, consider using services. Linux users should embrace that as Linux has good support for services.
HaloHaloBrainFreeze@reddit
If the FOSS community will make a program with feature quality in parity with the commercial, locked-in ones for Windows alongside Linux market share growth, then yes, software companies will follow through
ButterflyMundane7187@reddit
Europe switching to Linux has been media bait since the early 2000s, when tiny pilot projects were hyped as continent wide revolutions. Headlines love drama, not accuracy. And honestly, with how CIA and NSA operate, trusting official narratives feels naïve.
1ncogn1too@reddit
Nobody is using windows for any serious work anyway.
MoralMoneyTime@reddit
yes and they scarcely have a choice