Things become more hopeful if you zoom out your timescale
Posted by Far-Government-6551@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 89 comments
Like most in this sub, I've kind of just accepted that this version of civilization is not going to continue. It doesn't even particularly make me sad anymore, because human civilization creates just as much if not more suffering (human and non-human) than it relieves. It saddens me how many people are suffering now and will be in the years to come, but this is the price of living a human life for the last 10,000 years at least. Who says we should have it any differently?
However, I get some relief from knowing that we got a billion years before the sun makes this rock uninhabitable. So as long as a few humans survive (which I think is very likely), our consciousness will persist, evolve and create new adventures. Our tech won't survive, but the human spirit will survive, and to me that's the only thing that really matters.
Maybe the species that humans evolve into will do a better job of something like 'civilization' in 5-50 million years, when tectonics push more fossil fuels to the surface. Hell, maybe in that time evolution will select even more for compassion and co-operation, simply because we'll need it to survive on our post-climate-wreckage planet.
Or maybe we never restart a high tech civilization, who cares? Human life is so much more than just what we think of currently as civilization.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
Every species goes extinct. The ironically misnamed Homo sapiens evolved into its current form during a time of climatic stability. We are leaving that stability, but not for the Ice Ages in which we evolved but into a world no Homo species has ever known.
WE. WILL. GO. EXTINCT
Your "belief" that humans will survive the coming apocalypse is massively misplaced.
NegativeGoose37@reddit
You’re not even using the Greek word, “apocalypse” correctly in the way that it was meant to be interpreted.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
"Apocalypse: A great catastrophe that results in widespread destruction or the collapse of civilization."
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition (fourth possible meaning of the word).
The definitions of words change and/or expand over time. How the Greeks meant (or mean) "apocalypse" to be defined is irrelevant to those speaking and writing in modern American vernacular outside the scope of Academe.
NegativeGoose37@reddit
That’s like saying that the Spanish word ‘gato’ translates to ‘dog’ because some time ago Americans started translating it to ‘dog’ instead of ‘cat’.
It means an unveiling or a revelation.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
You riposte is nonsensical, since no one of any intelligence translates "gato" as "dog".
I know what "Apocalypse" means in a religious context. I'm obviously using it in a modern, vernacular context.
Have you never heard of the "Insect Apocalypse"? That sure as hell doesn't refer to devout grasshoppers or mosquitoes. How about a weather-person in the US talking about a "Snowpocalypse"? Gee, from which two words did that portmanteau originate?
NegativeGoose37@reddit
Similarly, no one of any intelligence translates ‘apocalypse’ as ‘end-of-world’. Thank you for proving my point.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
It's interesting that the editors of The American Heritage Dictionary have defined apocalypse the same way I'm using it. They must all be idiots to.
You might want to look up the meaning of "insufferable".
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
I don't doubt we will, when is the question. I don't think soon.
headfirst21@reddit
Sooner than you think... Faster than expected.. you new here..? You might be looking for r/collaspesupport, cause you're hopium lvls are off the charts... Lol
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
son im crine
CorvidCorbeau@reddit
Human populations are not restricted to one specific climate zone. Temperatures going up everywhere does not necessarily render all of Earth uninhabitable, depending on how severe the warming ends up being.
3°C - almost certainly not existential to our species 13°C - don't even bother, no chance of surviving
New = deadly is extremely oversimplified.
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
The world we'll soon-ish be living in is not the world we evolved to live in. Heading north or south to avoid heat, weather, massive storms, droughts, whatever only works in Asia, Europe and North and South America (Africa and Australia are just fucked at this point). And then that strategy fails because in the north you cannot farm permafrost and in South America there's really no any arable land in that teeny tiny tail of the continent. Oceania is wiped out due to rising ocean levels plus salinification of drinking water. Some island nations (New Zealand, perhaps) might survive the longest.
I doubt that extinction will happen this century, but have no doubt no human will see AD 2300.
CorvidCorbeau@reddit
I am on board with sometime between 2200-2500, I thought you were suggesting something along the lines of 2050 or something
AlwaysPissedOff59@reddit
I'm sorry that I was too vague - yes, we're in agreement. A nuclear war would move the timeline up quite a bit, I fear.
Red-scare90@reddit
You are correct, and its unsurprising you are being downvoted. This sub has gone from realistically talking about societal collapse to a majority of the users thinking climate change will wipe out all life down to a microbial level.
NegativeGoose37@reddit
This sub is full of whiny, victim-minded, hypocritical, keyboard-slamming materialistic nihilists.
Eiswolf999@reddit
We are not the main characters in a fictional story. Not the personal creation of some sadistic weirdo on a cloud. We are not important. We are the fucking dust in a damn vast, empty space. The Fermi paradox doesn’t exist for no reason, even we must be allowed to disappear. Somewhere between infrastructure no one is operating anymore and a population too small to remain stable across generations, it might eventually become clear to the last ones in a not too distant future:
It doesn’t matter whether we exist or not. No one cares.
NegativeGoose37@reddit
What a sad and pathetic worldview that you and probably 90% or more here have. Agreed with the other two that material nihilism is a low intellect philosophy. Even more low intellect than religious fanaticism.
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
no one-execpt us bro. and besides stop with the dumb ass nhilism bro u love you make friends etc etc. It is extremely contradictory philosohpy since the act of love and friendship directly negates it(and dont tell me you dont have any relationships bro thats sad)
FOX_NEWS_SUPER_ALERT@reddit
We are to exist as we are and nothing more.
Also, if anyone dabbles in astronomy, we know we are extremely lucky to exist in the first place. Earth is rare. Extremely rare.
There is a solid chance that no other civilization out there will ever know we existed.
Therefore we exist only to ourselves.
Fun thoughts!
There’s easily 8 billion people who do not know who you are. In their world.. you don’t exist.
You are also a different story to everyone you meet. Most of which, if at all, you will never get to read.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
Hard disagree to this materialist nihilism
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
This is a very anthropocentric take that I strongly disagree with. The few humans you’re referring to are the ones most responsible for rendering the planet hostile to MOST of life.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
I don't think that's necessarily true at all. It's impossible to know which groups will survive as the future will be very chaotic.
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
Impossible? Go on and defend your position. Tell me why people who have less resources will survive this.
I’ll wait for you.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
Are you always this patronising? Not interested in "debating" random internet douchebags.
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
You’ve picked the wrong word, pal. I’m direct as they come.
I’m not looking for a debate. The materialist position matters if we’re talking about extinction-level threats.
laibach@reddit
I get where you are coming from, but I think you are very wrong (as we all are about almost everything).
Have you seen the movie Triangle of sadness? Its about exactly this topic. Billionaires on a luxury cruise face reality when they are shipwrecked. The only people who know how to work, cook, survive are the workers. Money means nothing, Rolexes mean nothing. Stocks in Amazon and Bitoin even less.
I think the groups that will survive are the ones least dependant on thr modern system (and lucky enough to survive the natural disasters). Probably a tribe in Papa new guinea or something. Or a village in Kamchatka. Most probably something very remote to escape the violence.
A new york hit shot attorney? Even if he has a billion in mutual funds and four mansions in Italy and thr Maldives? Not a chance in hell. His housekeeper is more prepared for the future than he is.
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
Water.
laibach@reddit
What do you mean?
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
Water conflict.
When the rain stops falling, the dams, lakes, and other freshwater systems starts drying up - whoever controls these, meaning the plutocracy through the military/paramilitaries, will survive. They’re geographically “static”, and will be well-monitored everywhere. Satellites.
Including desalination plants if you’re thinking saltwater systems.
The UN has already declared the beginning of the global water bankruptcy last year.
It is global, unlike the fictions Hollywood and the entertainment industry sells you.
There will be no “mass” migrations. There will be mass die-offs. It will be slow and excruciating.
You will never reach the rich to lord over them or extinguish their lives. Their cronies and allies will. But they will last longer than us. That’s why they’re heavily investing in AI and robotics.
adriayna@reddit
This is one of the reasons they’re putting in so many data centers… It is a water grab. My community is fighting one!
One-Intention7064@reddit
tone-policing + personal attack + exit as superiority performance
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GurSmall4206@reddit
They know how to survive with less. The primitive scattered tribes in the rainforests, deserts, and mountains have a better chance than jeff bezos crew, who likely is so far removed from survival that fake money cant help long term. the homeless american who lives in the woods and the poor west virginian knows how to survive more than the business owners. Money cant buy everything
gtinmia@reddit
Money can buy Bezos and other billionaires a private island with a solar/wind farms, desalinization plant and enough resources to last multiple generations. With a full staff and enough resources for some of their selected families as well. Even an elite force to defend it from marauders. Apply that to a bunker in a mountain or any other possible scenario. Money can you anything to survive, as long as you’re smart about it.
GurSmall4206@reddit
These billionaires arnt even "smart" just evil enough to brute force their way to the top strategically. I dont think they could set up a system to last more than a few decades. theyd have to take some of the top engineering/scientific minds to those places and keep them satisfied. They are way too arrogant and seem to think they can figure it out by themselves. Long term, the scientists die, people have no resources to repair the parts for desalination etc, and they just all die. some of the worlds top scientists couldnt even keep biospheres alive for decades. Being in a dead biosphere with no way to fix machines long term, with no actual survival skills wont end well
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
Without the deleterious effects of climate change.
Different story this time.
GurSmall4206@reddit
People who are already used to extreme heat will have an easier time adapting than someone who is used to living in ac. natives in the southwestern usa deserts will adapt better than jeff bezos because they know how to build underground earth huts etc. im VERY aware of wet bulb and climate change, and how it will kill billions. thats baked in and my point still stands
DenseBeautiful731@reddit
Cool. Best of luck.
thomas533@reddit
I disagree. The ones most responsible will be dead due to old age. Their kids might still be around, but if and when things are that bad, I suspect the attitudes that rendered the ecosystem hostile to life will probably change with future generations.
And my kids and grand kids will still be around as will many of the offspring of those of us building lifeboat communities. We will still outnumber them, and hopefully by then, will be able to disarm any power they have left to do bad things.
One-Intention7064@reddit
Appeal to children + Moral laundering + Essentialist innocence bias + Future-person idealization
BellaRyder2505@reddit
Why the hell would humans continuing to live give you hope? So more and more generations have to suffer and go through this hell on earth?!! I want humans to go extinct asap. The earth is fine and will do okay without humans. Humans need the earth and we have destroyed it.
danknerd@reddit
The only solace is that billionaires will die too. Their arrogance will betray them.
osoberry_cordial@reddit
The average lifespan of a species is a few million years. There’s nothing wrong with being hopeful, but I think it’s quite unlikely that any humans or descendants of humans will be around in the geologically distant future. We’re resilient, but not magically so, and we’re speedrunning an ecological apocalypse right now.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
Humans are qualitatively different from other species due to abstract intelligence so I don't think the average species lifespan necessarily applies. I think our type of intelligence and/or it's descendant will be able to weather a lot of things far into the future.
gnostic_savage@reddit
Quite a few other species have abstract intelligence, including dogs. It's been proven. Other animals that can reason and have abstract thinking and even language, are a lot smarter than dogs. Dolphins are incredibly smart, especially Orcas. They are brilliant.
The differences between us and the other animals are of degree, not kind. And some of them do some things better than we do. We have our gifts, as do they, and we didn't make our talents anymore than they made theirs. the planet made all of us.
I agree. The average length of time for a species to exist isn't relevant. Humans will be among the shortest lived species in planetary history, especially modern humans, homo sapiens. The very first hominin known was the Sahelanthropus tchadensis, which existed at least 7 million years ago. Modern humans have existed for 315K to 340K years.
Sharks have existed 450 million years. Crocodiles and their relatives have been around for 85 million years. Bears have been around 55 million years. Birds evolved from animals that lived with dinosaurs 150 million years ago. Dolphin as they are now have existed for at least 12 million years, but their earliest dolphin ancestors lived 65 million years ago. Their cousins the Orcas have existed for 50 million years.
As for humans, Homo erectus is the longest living human and walked the Earth for at least 1.5 million years. We won't make it to .5 million years. We probably won't make it to .35 million years. Doing that would require that survive another 10,000 years. Not going to happen.
Humans are not only not going to survive what he have done, we aren't as intelligent as a lot of people seem to think. Being able to make machines and tear the world up does take a type of intelligence, but it would have been a lot more intelligent not to bring ourselves to what appears to be the worst mass extinction event in planetary history. We are way out of control, and it was not intelligent.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
You seem very certain about something that is completely uncertain.
gnostic_savage@reddit
Don't make it personal or about the person. Debate facts. I gave you facts about animals, about some animals' reasoning ability, abstract thinking and language. I gave you facts about how long specific animals have existed on the Earth, including modern humans, homo erectus, and how long ago the first known hominin existed.
I made a comment about human intelligence and how it would have been much more "intelligent" of humans not to put themselves in this monstrous position along with the rest of the life of the planet. All of these points are counter to your own points, but none of them are about you, your personality, or my negative interpretation of what your comments mean about you.
You need to do the same.
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
Bro human reasonign is so vastly beyond other animals... i mean it is technically "difference of degree not kind" ur right but also... bro it is liek 50x better reasoning for humans. and you DONT give facts stop the cap. u assume "we will die off in 10K years"(begging the quesiton bro-WHY? ... ahem "facts" man. WHERE)
"Sharks have existed 450 million years. Crocodiles and their relatives have been around for 85 million years. Bears have been around 55 million years. Birds evolved from animals that lived with dinosaurs 150 million years ago. Dolphins as they are now have existed for at least 12 million years, but their earliest dolphin ancestors lived 65 million years ago. Their cousins the Orcas have existed for 50 million years."
confusing animal familes and entire orders with one singular species? GENIUS!!!! and again not comparable they cant make tools or udnerstand the situtiosn on our level
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
"Humans are not only not going to survive what he have done, we aren't as intelligent as a lot of people seem to think."
This is not a fact, this is an interpretation. You make other statements that are not facts, they are predictions of the unpredictable. You seem to forget that you, also, are one of these humans that aren't as smart as they think they are.
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
" the worst mass extinction event in planetary history"
Masterventure@reddit
Anatomically modern Humanity has already been on the verge of extinction with most humans being reduced to a very small population.
Then literally all other hominids have gone extinct already we are the last of our particular branch of the tree of life and our closest relatives aren’t doing too hot either.
Our flourishing also coincides with one of the most stable and favorable climatic periods earth has ever seen.
So just from history we know that hunter gatherer humans can go extinct quite easily, because they almost have already.
And we know our settled, farming lifestyle depends on a stable climate, which will probably not continue and instead will turn very erratic in the very near future.
I mean it’s hard to intuitively imagine humans going away, just look around. I intuitively want to agree to your thinking.
But objectively speaking, human history tells a very different story.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
But also, objectively speaking, we survived.
Masterventure@reddit
I feel like that’s a pretty callous response.
The fact we “almost” went extinct already, has to have an impact on the assumption humanity is basically extinction proof.
The largest human bottleneck was caused by a volcanic eruption, a short term volcanic eruption might be considered a mild threat compared to the looming potentially millennia of unstable and unfavorable climatic changes. Also the fact that earth back then was pristin, while now all major ecosystems are on the verge of collapsing.
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
we almost went extinct.. when we were hunter gatherers... who had NO modern tech.. and had ONLY 100K people.. yes SO applicatable to the modern day. SO VERY!
yea bro fries in the bag man
fastsaltywitch@reddit
We have never seen this speed of warming before that we are currently facing. Odds are we have a runaway climate change on our planet and the base production of plants just gives up. Amount of biological calories drop and no animal in humans weight class will survive.
Humans are a failure of species. Kill our cousins and fuck up the environment that gives us food. The only legacy we will have is an odd, thin plastic layer in the rock strata. Shameful.
idkwutmyusernameshou@reddit
it is estimated we will reach maybe 3 C.(nice website( https://climateactiontracker.org/global/emissions-pathways/ ) i mean that still still sucks BUT it is nowhere near a mass extinction end f humanity bullshit bro. thats unscientfific as shit. espeically some BS on "all animals in our weigh class" doomming. it will cause thousands of species to go exticnt. it WONT be a second K-T. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_risk_from_climate_change#Invertebrates ) maybe 20%. (thats still bad but comeon dont make shit up)
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
Maybe, maybe not.
MostlyDisappointing@reddit
Buddy, what are you smoking? I want some.
planktonsmate4@reddit
I swear this sub is run by silicone valley creeps
MostlyDisappointing@reddit
Unemployed English guy, but close enough.
Your post is absurd in lots of ways, I was just poking fun at the most egregious non-scientific ramble. You know there's, like, actual science you can read up on, even Wikipedia would be great. You don't need to just imagine how you think the world works and run with that.
Also it's silicon, the pure material. Silicon valley. Silicone is the name for a wide variety of polymers with silicon in it.
planktonsmate4@reddit
Peter Theil?💩💩
Crazy-Independent445@reddit
I'm not where you're at, but I've read it, understand where you feel you're at, the world is at, and your big picture take on things. That's it. Not every person that comments has to give a critique, not every person has to agree or oppose. I'm just telling you that your view's been heard. Cool.
TrainResponsible9714@reddit
This isn't the first time
HardNut420@reddit
We all deserve what is coming to us hopefully a hell exists so we all burn in it for enternity for what we did to this planet in a universe where life is probably extremely rare
EmbarrassedAnnual66@reddit
There’s a recent book called Apocalypse by Lizzie Wade that analyzes how people in the past have survived in the wake of societal collapse by living simpler lives in the margins, which I found enlightening and hopeful in a similar way to what you describe.
FungusRespecter@reddit
species that is actively destroying itself thinks that it will achieve greatness because allegedly god loves them and tells them they are the best, most important creatures. fascinating!
One-Intention7064@reddit
they think you they the best species?? then let them try to mimic random sounds as accurately as budgerigars do.
thomas533@reddit
Modern human have only been around for a few hundred thousand years. It won't even take a million years...
I suspect that in the next 200 to 300 hundred years humans will re-settle back to a 16th or 17th century level of population and technology (mostly due to energy constraints) but still have a 19th or 20th century level of knowledge. It won't be so far into the future that we will have forgotten the history of what happed but it will be physically impossible to have the same population growth due to a lack of cheap fossil fuels.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
Yes, I agree we in a century or two humanity will survive in different, possibly new forms of societies. I despair a bit though because I think it's unlikely that most human societies will be nice places to live. So many people still turn to strongmen, lack compassion, are selfish, etc etc. We are culturally still horribly childish. Maybe the collapse will make us grow up.
But if not, I guess I'm just avoiding that potential despair by going into the far distant future.
Bandits101@reddit
As we drop from the peak of energy use, how much effort will governments invest in environmental protection. What will protect fisheries from desperate factory ships, what will protect forests from firewood hunters.
What will protect the remaining animals in the wild as humans that are able to hunt, ignore sanctuaries to feed their families. Humans in their death throes I think will be nothing short of a calamity.
It may be uplifting to expect humans to carry on inhabiting an Earth ravaged environmentally and heated to unbearable conditions and rubbing sticks together for energy.
Under those conditions I can’t see humans self actualizing in any form. Humans I think will find it infinitely more difficult to survive than they did on even an ice age ravaged landscape.
Life for humans was relatively very good 500 years ago. There was ample fresh water, game, good soil if managed, forests for building and cooking and much, much less pollution.
I doubt humans could retreat to a time 500 years ago, I think ten thousand is more like it (relatively) for a short time. Who knows though, hopium is okay now, although in the past it (and blame) allowed the environmental destruction to continue because you know “there was always hope”.
thomas533@reddit
The majority of those destructive activities are only possible because of cheap energy.As oil prices 10x or 100x, factory ships will be grounded and firewood and animal hunters wont have their big trucks to drive mile and miles into the forest. There is going to be a transition period where those things will happen, but I think it will be somewhat self limited.
That went from reasonable to silly. Even in a hot house earth environment, there is plenty of habitable places for probably millions of humans. And we don't rub sticks together for energy.
Be more specific. What sort of conditions are you imagining?
I think in 200 or 300 years there will still be much of that.
I don't think you understand how adaptable humans are. Sure, 99.9% of people will probably die off in the next few hundred years, but there is zero reason why small populations can't adapt to a hot house earth.
EdenSill@reddit
I like this. This is kind of my take on it as well. I’ll take one step further and say that even if the human race does not survive mid to long-term I’m not that upset about it. But I think you are right. We will probably survive in some form at least long-term. We are incredibly resilient creatures and even if the Earth is rendered largely uninhabitable, there will very likely be small populations who survive in the habitable areas.
Do I think we will make 1 billion years? Absolutely not. Another chicxulub it’s just a matter of when not if. That will have potential to knock out anything larger than a mole. I don’t think we’re going to see the high-tech Society you speak of. Once oil is unattainable, that tech just does not happen. The absolute best case would be a continuous pre-industrial civilization existence. But I don’t think this will be likely for a very, very long time as we have caused so much damage to the atmosphere and oceans and arable lands.
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
I chose the time frame of 5-50 million years as that would be the time it takes for geology to potentially push currently unavailable fossil fuels close to the surface again, making high tech civ a possibility again.
Unable_Car_5539@reddit
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Jovan_Knight005@reddit
Or close to zero, for that matter.
Peripatetictyl@reddit
It is only after we have lost everything, that we are free to do anything.
kingtacticool@reddit
lol. No it doesnt.
qwtd@reddit
What do you know random Reddit person? Please enlighten us with your grand wisdom
kingtacticool@reddit
Its called a Mass Extinction Event for a reason.
The earth will heal and the biome will flourish again, but this biome is fucked.
NyriasNeo@reddit
"However, I get some relief from knowing that we got a billion years before the sun makes this rock uninhabitable. So as long as a few humans survive (which I think is very likely), our consciousness will persist, evolve and create new adventures. Our tech won't survive, but the human spirit will survive, and to me that's the only thing that really matters."
Why does that matter in the grand scheme of things? Human history, if you count some civilization, is less than 10k years old, even if you give it 100k years, is not even noise in the time scale of 1B years. That is time scale for evolution. There will be no "human" as we know it even in half of 10% (100M years) of that time. Because we (if any left) will evolve to adapt to the new environment.
mellbs@reddit
Our tech won't survive? Lol we won't survive our tech
Far-Government-6551@reddit (OP)
SS: Collapse is coming, and I find it helpful and soothing to zoom out to the really really big picture of life and humanity.
qwtd@reddit
🤓
Shoddy-Childhood-511@reddit
Actually some faster collapse would help our species retain more knowledge, science, technology, etc.
It'd be more juste too since less of tropics would become uninhabitable.
old-legs-623@reddit
The starlings on the power lines are waiting. They don't like it much when I'm sitting out back as I'm too close to where they want to look for worms and grubs. "Sorry, y'all, we may have ruined everything for ourselves and you both. But at least I can go inside for a bit and be out of your way." And I go in. As I pass the window, I see that they have flown down and are taking advantage.
Do one kind thing for another species every day.
m19010101@reddit
We’re cooked
GoreNoiseThrowAway@reddit
i like this idea