Arguments for facism being a form of socialism?
Posted by bucket150@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 61 comments
[removed]
Posted by bucket150@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 61 comments
[removed]
Substantial_Teach465@reddit
I mean, if the state is directing economic outcomes rather than free markets, that resembles socialism more than capitalism. Both reject classical liberal individualism in favor of collective goals. But the premise is incomplete. Fascism borrows tools (state control, mobilization) that also appear in socialist systems, but uses them to reinforce hierarchy and nationalism rather than worker ownership or equality.
Maybe better to say they both share the same roots and tools?
What's the goal?
Jagos0008@reddit
Fascism is neither capitalism or socialism, that's why it's called third position, however on the political compass it's closer to socialism than pure capitalism
GuestOk9310@reddit
National Socialism aka Nazisn arguably is a form of socialism, they confiscated stuff off well off Jews to sell and then spent the money on helping the less fortunate.
SansColorant@reddit
Since we’re here we should start by explaining first how DPRK is a democracy because of the name...
Olieskio@reddit
I mean I do think the DPRK is a democracy as democracy means power of the people, the people are the public and the public is the state so its perfectly inline
SansColorant@reddit
I am genuinely curious about your take on Orwell’s work
Olieskio@reddit
I don't have an opinion on either since I haven't read them.
garebear3@reddit
So as long as i claim what im doing is for the people i can do whatever i want because i have the backing of the people.
The circular logic is hilariously foolish.
Olieskio@reddit
Well yes, thats why im against democracy and so should you. Its basic Libertarian Ethics.
garebear3@reddit
Sure, its a good book. But its a criticisms of actuall democracy not the commie half wit idea of "if i insist and lie often enough it becomes true" way that NK does it.
Olieskio@reddit
What is "actual democracy" if its not politicians lying, claiming socialist policies help them until it becomes a common belief that government intervention is a good thing like the FDA, Patents, Licencing and zoning laws.
Because last I checked Hoppe criticised Democracy because it is Socialism lite and will lead to decivilization through further socialist policies.
CruelSummer77@reddit
Refer to Britt’s or Eco’s characteristics of fascism.
Pulp_Zero@reddit
This is what is called starting with a conclusion and building an argument to fit said conclusion. Why do this? Are you just looking to win an internet fight?
Despite the Nazis calling themselves Socislists, they had little else in common with the socialists in their day. Their policies weren't similar. Their goals weren't similar. There's going to be some commonalities in any forms of government. But that doesn't make them the same or that similar. Lions and bears are both for legged furry mammals, but you wouldn't confuse one for the other.
Skonky@reddit
Their policies are very similar to modern day social democrats.
EducationalOil1655@reddit
Wtf are you talking about?
Skonky@reddit
If they were not socialists, why did Social Democrats of the time supports the Nazis?
In Sweden it wasn't until unrefutable evidence of their atrocities against jews etc surfaced when they started being critical. Before that there was open support of them.
The Nazis welfare policies etc are very similar to modern day social democrats welfare policies. Social Democrats keep a kapitalist foundation but mix it with welfare and socialist principles.
Like the Nazis.
A lot of the time people deny them being socialists because they weren't pure socialists. Well, there are lots of versions of socialist.
Nationalist Socialism is just one.
EducationalOil1655@reddit
Horseshoe Theory is named after a horseshoe for a reason. It's not a circle. Fascism and Socialism are fundamentally different
SpamFriedMice@reddit
Nazis didn't ban unions altogether, the created one centralized union, the German Labor Front (DAF), that they controlled.
Technical-Data@reddit
Which is a very far left position.
PitsAndPints@reddit
Something that is often forgotten is that while nazis are fascist, not all fascists are/were nazis.
Per Benito Mussolini, the core tenet of Fascism is “All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state”
Technical-Data@reddit
And he was the head of the Italian socialist party so he would know.
ILikeBumblebees@reddit
Nowhere was this more apparent than in Austria in the 1930s, where the Nazis and the "Austro-Fascist" Fatherland Front were bitter enemies, with the Nazis advancing their cause by brutalizing and assassinating Austrian Fascist leaders.
SquareIsCircle@reddit
Well, if you're arguing with a socialist it's worth pointing out that Marx himself makes a distinction between the left-wing socialism that he advocated and what he called "reactionary socialism," which he saw as right-wing socialism. Fascism wasn't yet a named thing in Marx's time, but for him reactionary socialists were people like Otto von Bismarck and Napoleon III, who were very much the forefathers of "National Socialism." They were anti-Capitalist and anti-Liberal, like the Marxists, but wanted to see a return to feudal institutions rather than the post-Capitalist utopia the left-wing socialists had fantasized.
Worth noting that Marx would also view modern progressives and "Democratic Socialists" as right-wing socialists, but what he called "bourgeois socialists."
So, if your sense of "left-right" (an arbitrary binary) is "socialism left, free enterprise right," then unambiguously fascists are left wing because fascists, at least from a Marxist point of view, are unambiguously socialists.
OTOH, if your sense of "left-right" is something more like "internationalism left, nationalism right" then fascism is unambiguously right wing, but it's right wing socialism.
Yet again, if your sense of "left-right" is based in individual liberty vs. authoritarianism, then whichever side you put individual liberty on, both the fascists and the Marxist-Leninists are on the other side.
Closing note - a good response to "Nazis banned unions" is "so did the Soviets, and for the same reason," i. e. "the workers are represented by the government now, so labor unions, while necessary under Capitalism, are now seditious/counterrevolutionary."
Equivalent_Try5640@reddit
We gotta remember when we have these "arguments" that this is all just words and names and what people call things. I can call socialism fascism but someone should calls what they do socialism may be the farthest thing from fascism. You really gotta narrow what you're arguing about to be very specific for them to ever be comparable.
BastiatF@reddit
I think it's more important to attack their typical motte-and-bailey tactic: - motte: [insert failed socialist experiment] wasn't real socialism because it didn't have [insert arbitrary utopian characteristic] - bailey: [capitalist country] is an example of a successful socialist country because it has [insert government program]
David_O_Really@reddit
Of course, nobody has ever said that [insert capitalist system] isn't real capitalism because [insert any government action}, certainly not on this sub anyway
KC0023@reddit
When did Scandinavians become socialist countries? Where are these brain dead takes coming from?
BastiatF@reddit
That's the point. They are not, but socialists will argue they are when convenient because of their social program while at the same time arguing that the USSR wasn't socialist because it wasn't moneyless and stateless.
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Jolly_Teacher_1035@reddit
I am not very knowledgeable in politics. But I read the fascist manifesto, and seems socialist to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto
SomebodyFromMaine@reddit
How broad do you want to define socialism?
The Nazi ideology and organization were fundamentally opposed to Marxism and other forms of socialism. The use of the terms workers and socialism was designed to draw interest away from the left.
You can probably look into Bismarck's State Socialism instead of Marxist socialism.
Olieskio@reddit
Nazi ideology was opposed to socialism just like the USSR was against Socialism, it doesn't like competitors.
Nazism is perfectly inline with socialism with policies like gleichschaltung (Synchronization) and "Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz"
iamprivate@reddit
People don't remember that one group thought that socialism would transcend borders and unite people based on class. When it became clear people identified more with nationality than class then they tried national socialism. Those groups hated each other.
cobolNoFun@reddit
Socialism, the hippy variety is fine. The problem starts when you go above like 2k people as interpersonal relationships can't be maintained. At that point the good of society can no longer be a collective effort without some sort of central planning. This is the flaw of socialism and why everyone dies. If the value of your labor is defined by effort/skill/time and not what is produced, and your labor is owned by the collective.... You will have the same issues all slave nations have in mis allocation of resources, stifled innovation, and an unhappy population. Oh, and sthe slavery thing, not owning your own labor is slavery
ProudPlatinean@reddit
While the practical outcomes can sometimes appear similar, democracies have historically incorporated principles or core tenets associated with both systems, and the two are still clearly distinct. One major difference lies in their approach to dialectics. Fascism seeks to subsume class conflict into the state or nation and resolve it within that framework. A good example from my country is Peronism, which developed a massive union structure encompassing most workers in one way or another. Or intervenes in negotiations between workers groups and corporate, in order to achieve social peace.
antistate-net@reddit
I put this together recently, hope it helps! threads: @antistate I'll include my sources: [Edward Conze and Ellen Wilkinson 1935
Part I: How Fascism Comes](https://www.marxists.org/subject/fascism/conze-wilkinson/ch11.htm)
Hein Htet Kyaw The Marxist Roots of Classical Fascism
devnull791101@reddit
fascism is a direct evolution of socialism. socialism pitted rich against poor and ultimately caused civil war. fascism united all under a united cause for the love of the country. refer to the person who codified fascism and inspired mossiloni
properal@reddit
Draft of a Comprehensive Program of National Socialism
Superduperbals@reddit
Shouldn't take their claims at face value, the two main parties rivaling the Nazis at the time were the Social Democratic Party and the Communist Party, it was necessary to appeal to the industrial working class via Socialist rhetoric to have a path to victory. And in retrospect its obvious that their self-declared Socialist identity was a scam, considering they persecuted and then murdered all the Social Democrats and Communists in the holocaust.
lastwindows@reddit
Fascism IS left. Some of the biggest falsehoods westerners have been programmed to believe is that Fascism and NAZIs are of the right. Any decent, non-political historian can clear that up for you.
gospel-inexactness@reddit
Categorically wrong unfortunately! while there is some overlap, they are fundamentally opposed as ideologies. There is a very clear consensus on this.
HoagieSapien@reddit
socialism and facism can coexist but aren't the same.
Jout92@reddit
Mussolini, the founder of fascism was a socialist. He was radicalized by socialism, he was a socialist party member, he was the head writer of a socialist newspaper. The equivalent of a socialist TikTok influencer of today. While you can recognize that they are different ideologies, it's undeniable that fascism has it's roots in socialism.
adimwit@reddit
The problem is that Traditional European politics classifies things based in Social Hierarchy or Social Equality. Economic characteristics were completely irrelevant.
So Collectivism exists in the extreme Right and the extreme Left. And the Traditional Right-wing was basically feudalism or monarchism, which was totally collectivist. Naziism and Fascism advocated the return to a modernized version of feudalism where the state enforces Traditional hierarchies (racial or feudal).
So in the context of the 1920s, Nazism and Fascism were feudal hierarchies and Right-wing but also collectivist.
The modern idea that right-wing meant individualism and left-wing meant collectivism didn't originate until the 1950s in the US. So the idea capitalism was Right-wing was a recent invention. Fascists and Monarchists saw free market capitalism and economic liberalism as being closer to socialism.
Vindaloo6363@reddit
Fascism is socialism + nationalism while socialism was theoretically internationalist.
Hopeful_Addition7834@reddit
My personal explanation is that fascism is when reasonable people lose their cool and become mass murderers, and normal socialism is just when losers led by psychopaths commit mass murder out of emotions due to being losers and psychopaths.
oWatchdog@reddit
You are incorrect. Not only are they dissimilar, they are incompatible beliefs.
We can look at how they rise to power. Fascism abuses human nature. Fear of the other, blaming minorities for societal problems, and a (perceived) strong man leader. Socialism ignores human nature, or at least seeks to minimalize and dictate. They rise to power through utopian rhetoric.
We can also look to how they fail. Fascism preaches a hostile world. They fetishcize war and wage it until the world unites against them. They cannibalize the inside and are ravaged externally because they always need an enemy, foreign and domestic. They also reward party loyalty over competence so their systems begin failing. Socialism fails because corruption and ambition are inevitable when you consolidate the power necessary for the government to solve all problems. It's like giving a babysitter control of your bank account so they can better serve your child. Even if you have the perfect baby sitter now who spares no expense on their education, nutrition, etc. Eventually you will have a new baby sitter who robs all your money. You can't allow the government that level of power for whatever problems it may fix, it will eventually make those same problems worse.
They may both end up in an authoritarian regime, but one has that as a goal, succeeds, and then succumbs to their self inflicted wounds to get there. The other has the opposite goal, fails, and ends up being a stagnant hierarchy. They may have minor similarities, but they aren't related even under the very broad definition of socialism.
Anen-o-me@reddit
It's correctly called German pattern socialism.
Just as America is American socialism.
ShadyShaid@reddit
Stalin called himself socialist but was a fascist. Hitler called himself national-socialist but was fascist.
Socialist need force to work. The more force you have, the more you can push through socialist policies. Thats why socialism always leads or ends with a facist dictator.
PsychologicalWin8036@reddit
They were both socialists and fascists.
PsychologicalWin8036@reddit
That’s crazy. I was just having the same exact argument with Gemini because my position is that at the end of the day to the everyday average citizen who has to clock in and out every day, the end results of them both are feel quite the same.
When those with money and/or power have the ability to tell you what you’re gonna be doing on an almost day-to-day basis, the title of it doesn’t really matter.
tompsitompsito@reddit
Think of a horseshoe, Ω, moderates are at the top of the horseshoe and extremists are at the bottom of the horseshoe. Despite Stalin and Hitler being on complete opposite sides of the political spectrum, they still had much more in common with each other than Republicans have with Hitler or Democrats have with Stalin.
SelectCattle@reddit
One argument would be the founders of Fascism being leading Italian Socialists. And the Fadcism they articulated being the natural evolution of that ideology under Nationalist pressure.
Econmically they both require hogh levels of state control of the evonomy.
Socially they cannot exist without suppression of dissent. Neither works without state force conpelling obedience.
Ninja_Gingineer@reddit
Just check out Hitlers 25 points of the NAZI party https://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/documents/755-program-of-the-nazi?mode=text
vorkovrus@reddit
STATISM!
properal@reddit
Adolf Hitler as quoted by Otto Wagener in Hitler—Memoirs of a Confidant, editor, Henry Ashby Turner, Jr., Yale University Press (1985) p. 149
https://archive.org/stream/wagenerhitlermemoirsofaconfidant/Wagener%20-%20Hitler%20Memoirs%20of%20a%20Confidant_djvu.txt
properal@reddit
Fascists were heavily influenced by the socialist Proudhon, even naming one of the founding organizations The Cercle Proudhon.
https://www.marxists.org/history/france/cercle-proudhon/index.htm
Crazy_names@reddit
I keep wondering about how this term gets thrown about. I saw video of a guy breaking it down from its roots in late 19th century Italy. It was interesting but it took a turn into him trying to delineate the fascism of Italian Workers uniting into a socialist utopia and the fascism of Hitler in Germany and how the 2 are totally not related. It doesnt really answer the question but it does make one wonder how it went from a socialist movement to something socialists call anyone who stands up to their bullshit.
Raid-Z3r0@reddit
Facism and Socialim both rely on the State as the pivot of society. In both schools of thought, a society must serve the State, what they differ is the reason why. While a socialist would say that the State serves to equalize society, in Facism, society is equilized to serve the State. In practice, the results are the same: authoritarianism at best or a totalitarian dystopia at worst.
You are right in one thing: Socialim is not just the Marxist school of thought. Always remember that the Naz party's full name is National Socialist German Workers' Party. They claimed to be such themselves, but they were definetly not marxists.
Heng-Li@reddit
David Gordon: https://mises.org/mises-wire/yes-nazis-were-socialists
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