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Towelie_SE@reddit

The range thing is crazy, but I guess lots of people over there have huge distances to cover with interstate trips and family all over?

To my colleagues I always say the same thing, if you plug it in every night, and you have a full 'tank' every morning, what's the problem? How many times will you do 300+ km in a single day? Which is the range of almost any EV out there these days? That's crazy. Only for trips or vacation that might be a problem. And if that's the main hold up, why not just rent a car for that one week a year?

I mean, my ICE (hobby car) isn't magically full every morning with a full tank of energy ready to go. Compare it to a phone that's charging overnight. Of course, that's assuming a home charger.

And I get that in the city that's impossible, but in your suburbs with a drive way that should be no issue at all. As Europeans we can only dream about the cheap cheap electricity rates you guys have. I mean, it's a no brainer if you would calculate the dollar/mile over there.

But I also agree you need a choice of many more cheap entry level EV's out there. To be honest, a 6000 pound EV pick up with a 120 kWh battery doesn't make any sense. A Chinese light EV (I'm sorry, US brands don't seem to have any offerings there), the size of an accord with a 50 kWh battery would be perfect for 99% of drivers, easily.

Then again, I don't know how that works with the 110V you guys have going on. Here it's minimum 2 phase or 2 phase 220V. But still, you also don't need huge amounts of charging speed. Overnight even with 3-4 kW I can easily fill it up enough for a complete day with a lot of driving. It's such a no brainer all around.

When I watch the zac rios YouTube channel with people regretting their EV's, I feel like an alien almost, like I'm in a different reality. People thinking the electricity was going to be free, or not knowing fast charging isn't magical or always full speed. Such a lack of information, I'm dumbfounded. All my colleagues drive EV's here, it's just a fact of life and I haven't heard anyone complain one bit. It's just what they drive these days.

And ok, driving 1500 km to your vacation destination takes a few stops extra once a year. Big deal ...

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Srtviper@reddit

A lot of Americans have this idea in their head that they need the option to go on massive road trips at the drop of a hat, and the idea of having to stop every 4 hours to change is equivalent to communism. But in reality most people will maybe drive more than 300km in a single day once a year. To me not having to go to gas stations and filling the "tank" for just a few bucks is an easy trade off from having to spend 45 minutes changing on my yearly road trip.

On the home charging issue we use 120v single phase by default but we have plenty of home appliances that use 240v also single phase. For example an electric clothes dryer uses 240v so a lot of people will just unplug their dryer to plug in their car. But in many cases that is the reason our EVSE installs are more expensive. If you want more than 8amp charging and don't have an existing 240v connection by your car, you'll need some electrical work done. Although most people don't seem to be aware that even on 120v you can still easily add an average commutes worth of range overnight.

I have a few coworkers with EVs but far more that are openly hostile to the idea of owning an EV. They'll drive huge gas chugging trucks everywhere and still think EVs are the rip off. Some people just can't be helped.

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Mimical@reddit

When Toyota launched the hybrid taco I was really hoping that we would see a legitimate increase in fuel efficiency.

The extra torque basically makes zero impact but if you could get 30 mpg with normal tires that would have been incredible. Ah well.

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huffalump1@reddit

You can do better with one of the versions with a lower ride height, less aggressive tires, and keeping the front air dam. (Also no mudflaps)

But yeah, it's a bummer we don't have 30mpg compact trucks besides the Maverick! (and Santa Cruz maybe?)

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Atomichawk@reddit

It’s hilarious seeing people up and down this thread repeating the same myths and disproven talking points about hybrids that are covered in the video.

Really shows that a large chunk of people don’t care about reality and just want to whinge about their preconceived notions.

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CMDR_omnicognate@reddit

Most social medias are kinda a massive echo chambers designed specifically to keep people in their little preconceived notion bubbles, since various algorithms that choose what to show you try to keep you in them as it drives engagement up. it has some uh... unintended (or probably intended let's be real) consequences though.

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memymomeddit@reddit

It was happening on forums way before social media and smart algorithms though, too. Car guys love repeating the bullshit someone told them one time.

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sequelseize@reddit

It’s hilarious seeing people up and down this thread repeating the same myths and disproven talking points about hybrids that are covered in the video.

The video's title is slightly clickbaity - it should have been "How hybrids work and common myths about them" - but yes, a lot of comments clearly show that people did not watch any part of the video and just posted their reactions to the headline lol

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Atomichawk@reddit

Alec admits it himself, but he has a hard time toning down his snark. I think he’s working on it, but you’re definitely right that the title doesn’t help.

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bobovicus@reddit

Snark is half the reason I watch him!

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bobj33@reddit

I watched the video a day ago because I subscribe to his channel. Then I saw the reddit thread today. If I saw a thread about this 2 days ago I would probably be repeating the same myths as well. It's just really annoying how many people are commenting without watching the video or reading the original article etc.

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The tweaks they made to the lifespan of a post killed discussion on this site. It really only exists on smaller subs now.

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ducationalfall@reddit

I disagree. Internet was always terrible. People have been bitching about Eternal September for three decades now.

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Atomichawk@reddit

I don’t think of it that way. I think the spaces where real discussion happen just keep shrinking and getting harder to find as bots and the general public become more online.

Recoil42@reddit

You and me both.

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chadwicke619@reddit

I don’t understand why everyone conflates “talking out your ass” with Dunning Kruger. Most Redditors know they don’t know what they’re talking about, making it something completely different.

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AlexWIWA@reddit

I am disappointed that he didn't use the magic of buying two cars for the video

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MisterDoctor___@reddit

Anyone who talks bad about hybrids doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

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nguyenm@reddit

Alec, the host/presenter, did make a small omission to how the two-motor power-split transmission work when there's excess energy, though I'd say it's not his fault due to vehicle type (minivan) and the highspeed demand of his test drive.

When the engine is running, if the minimum required torque to sustain speed is lower than the engine output, the excess torque can be converted to electricity to be stored in the battery.

For example, if the pedal position is for a constant 60-70km/h cruise (common speed limit in towns) with the battery below threshold, an engine at its lowest cruise RPM limit can overproduce horsepower/power. MG1 can act as additional load to engine while MG2 can run at whatever rpm is needed.

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Towelie_SE@reddit

That's fair, but I think it can be forgiven for the sake of creating that quality PSA-type video. I think he explained the main points brilliantly and it came across really wel for the general public.

I think it has done wonders to counter all the negative one liners about hybrids, which I'm ashamed to admit, I also fell prey to. Without even doing 'my own research' or looking up a few things for myself. That whole spiel about 'two drivelines' and complexities of both drive trains is complete nonsense for an eCVT. And I say this as a (regular) car enthousiast.

I mean, Toyota engineers must be so frustrated, they produced a brilliant system, and all they got in return is a marketing disaster. I hope this video sets a few things straight.

In reality, their type of hybrid is basically just a simpler gearbox! Man was I wrong. And yes, it's probably not going to be the most engaging drive but for a daily it doesn't need to be. I scratch a different type of itch with good and efficient engineering, it's as exciting to me in concept and use as any sports car would be, just different! So this is perfect for me.

My next daily car is definitely going to be a corolla eCVT, no doubt. I just need to find out if 'mild hybrid' with other manufacturers is also similar to the Toyota thing to widen my car search

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u_yos@reddit

Interesting i didnt know that an ice could overproduce torque at 60 70 kmh can you explain why or have a link where i could learn more? Wouldnt the engine just spray less fuel if its overproducing

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Towelie_SE@reddit

I wasn't exactly talking bad about hybrids, cause I'm not the sort of dude to go around spouting my unsolicited opinions.

But I'm ashamed to admit that the constant barrage/brainwashing of the usual hybrid trash talk sort of got a hold in my thoughts. This video by Technology connections was really eye opening. And I say this as an average ar enthousiast.

Crazy thing is, I've always been the type of car enthousiast, not only to get excited about the usual car p*rn, but also about good engineering. It's a different kind of itch to scratch, but I've always been into that as well. A daily car should be the apex of good, smart, efficient engineering for me, anything else doesn't make sense.

So I've always been into the mild hybrid thing, but with a really simplified view on the whole thing. Like recouping brake energy: great! But the stories about the 'complexity' not so much, only to never really look up in detail what that was all about!

Consider me freshly converted into the eCVT camp again! That transmission seems to be just the perfect thing! How was I sleeping on this?? Yes, it's probably not the most exciting drive, but for a daily it doesn't have to be. You can always complement it with a fun hobby car for the weekend. Keep the mileage low on that one.

Honest maintenance, honest body shop work on a utilitarian kind of vehicle is, to me, it's own form of excitement in a way! Eyeing toyota corolla eCVT as we speak!

klowny@reddit

Nailed it. My Mazda either goes <5 miles for groceries and chores, or 500 miles into cold and wilderness for outdoor fun. Both are terrible use cases for a BEV, but would fit a PHEV use case perfectly.

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WebMasterQ@reddit

Exactly why I have my CX-90-PHEV. Been great.

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sequelseize@reddit

As renters who live in a complex without car charging ports and works at an office with too few L2 chargers... I can see why existing ICE infrastructure is just more convenient for some people

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SnooChipmunks2079@reddit

Absolutely! I’d never recommend an EV to someone without the ability to reliably charge at either home or work. You have to be a pretty dedicated EV driver in that situation.

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DrZedex@reddit

I'm still going to talk mad shit on mild hybrids and have my concerns about Toyotas "Max" turbo/hybrid systems in the taco, tundra, crown, etc.

But yeah the prius-style systems with no traditional slushbox auto are amazing.

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DanielDubs88@reddit

I was iffy on hybrids until I got my 2025 Honda CR-V hybrid. Drives like a dream. I don’t even have to be super conscientious about conserving gas and still get 30+ miles per gallon. Don’t love the CVT transmission, though.

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Mental_Medium3988@reddit

theres some to avoid if you plan on long term ownership but yeah they can be simpler than a regular ice vehicle. like toyota/fords hybrid system doesnt have a serpentine belt or multiple gears to fail. and in fords case recently that has been a good thing.

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narcistic_asshole@reddit

The Bosch Automotive Handbook is what opened my eyes to hybrids and explaining all the different configurations and the advantages that come with them. Hybrids are really the next evolution of the combustion engine, be it a series hybrid a prius or a mild hybrid that reduces the parasitic loss on the combustion engine from auxiliary systems while giving it a torque boost during acceleration.

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DanGleeballs@reddit

I’d take exception to mild hybrids, they’re not worth a bucket of warm piss.

Plug in hybrid is a step change up from ‘mild’.

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narcistic_asshole@reddit

narcistic_asshole@reddit

Very good points. Tbh it's really hard to judge complexity because every manufacturer seems to do hybrids differently. It's kinda hard ro predict what's going to be more reliable

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

You're skipping "normal" hybrids there. IMO both mild and PHEV are the types we can let go of.

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lee1026@reddit

Gotta say that I haven't been impressed by any "mild hybrids" running on 48v systems, ever.

They don't seem to deliver on either acceleration or fuel economy benefits compared to their peers.

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pdp10@reddit

We don't call turbocharged engines, "hybrids between a turbine and a piston engine", but they are. The point there, like with hybrid electrics, is that they have fewer weaknesses when combined than they do separately.

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manilove__frogs@reddit

I don't think there are 'bad' hybrids. My family needs 2 cars: SUV that can tow a camper, load up for road trips (live rural), get around easily in snow.

Our second car can be for commutes, my wife does 40km per day to and from work. To me the whole convenience of a hybrid or EV, would be that this commute can be done without burning gas.

I don't quite understand a car like the Civic Hybrid. The price difference between a Civic sport and sport hybrid is like $4k CAD. The fuel savings between them over a year of 15,000km driven is like $300. This doesn't make so much sense to me.

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ABrokenWolf@reddit

The price difference between a civic sport and a sport hybrid (in USD) is $2700. Ignoring the significantly better performance of the hybrid, the fuel cost difference per year for me at the 18,000 to 21,000 I drive yearly is roughly (assuming the average before the incredibly stupid war in Iran of $5.30 a gallon where I live) $858-$1001. In three years the fuel savings have already paid for the cost difference, and I buy a new car every 6-10 years, meaning in the long run (ignoring the cheaper maintenance, and again the much better performance) the hybrid is actually $2574 to $7007 cheaper than the sport.

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narcistic_asshole@reddit

Well in the Honda's case you're not only getting more efficiency, but a lot more power as well. The regular civic makes 150hp/133lbft and the civic hybrid makes 200hp/233lbft.

The cost effectiveness of whether the 49mpg hybrid and the 34mpg regular civic is going to depend on where you live, how much you drive and your interest rate. That extra $4k on your car loan may account to an extra $70 a month, which you may be able to exceed depending on how much you drive, but you also have the added benefit of having a much peppier car regardless

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hughcifer-106103@reddit

I have a PHEV and it works out great for me, or at least has so far. My commute falls inside the overall EV-only range of the vehicle and the ICE system works great when I leave town. Where I live has poor EV charging infrastructure outside of my city in most directions, however it has improved substantially since I bought the car and I’d consider an EV-only for my next one.

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Suaves@reddit

I had a rental hybrid Camry for a week and it was amazing. The throttle pedal did exactly what I wanted it to do all the time.

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balthisar@reddit

Or, you know, we have use cases wherein hybrids are inferior for us. My EV + ICE is a superior option to any current hybrid.

I loved my PHEV when my trips were short, but the ICE kept kicking on, defeating the purpose. Oh, I could have babied it like an early 2000's Prius hypermiler idiot, but I actually like to drive, and a hybrid wasn't a good car for someone who likes to drive. My EV, on the other hand, doesn't waste any engineering, weight, complexity, yucky chemicals, and other unnecessary stupid stuff for my use case.

Just because my use case is different doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

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Jam_Bannock@reddit

When the gas engine kicks on in a PHEV, the car is still operating as a hybrid. For example, in a Rav4 Plug in/Prime, it'll give you comparable fuel economy to the Rav4 Hybrid after running out the big battery. That's still a significant improvement over the gas only version.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

It is, but the cost is commensurate with an actual EV, which kills the value prop completely.

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Jam_Bannock@reddit

Valid point. Over the years, I've seen this point brought up in countless PHEV reviews, oftentimes with detailed math that shows PHEVs don't have competitive value proposition. The bottom line, from my understanding, is you get a PHEV only when you really don't want a pure EV.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

Pretty much. That's why they're rapidly disappearing from the market.

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wpm@reddit

we have use cases wherein hybrids are inferior for us

No one is talking about you, calm down buddy.

"Planes sure are great, people really misunderstand how safe they are"

" 😡 well I have places I need to travel that I can't fly to"

Like man, not everything is about you, no one cares about your Mach E.

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MisterDoctor___@reddit

You’re getting really defensive for someone who wasn’t even mentioned in my post. Your use case being different has nothing to do with what I said.

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Teledildonic@reddit

Or, you know, we have use cases wherein hybrids are inferior for us

OP is talking about people shit talking hybrids, which would be disingenuous to generalize.

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mortalomena@reddit

I will say half of hybrids in EU are total nightmares and should never be bought (Germans). So yes there truly are bad hybrids.

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daegojoe@reddit

Carry power plant that runs on safe, energy dense fuel whilst optimizes load condition.

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Seiryu2@reddit

I had a hybrid Ford Escaped once, it was great.

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Without home charging?

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enfuego138@reddit

Home charging is cheaper than gas, especially now. I live in a notoriously expensive state for electricity and it’s still cheaper per mile than my wife’s HEV. Plus it’s got 24,000 miles and been in for one service visit (free). There won’t be another until 40,000 miles. The brakes are still basically new. The batteries at 96% state of health. I won’t spend a cent for maintenance beyond wipers and probably tires in the first 50,000 miles.

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g0ld3nblue@reddit

Not all people can charge at home in the first place so this rules out a pretty sizable portion of the market

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enfuego138@reddit

Level 2 charging at work or at apartment parking public lots generally are consistent with hone rates, at least in my experience. It covers more people than I think many realize.

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Jethro_Tully@reddit

Home charging is cheaper than gas, especially now.

I think this is pretty well known. My question was whether it was more economical without home charging, which I'm pretty sure the answer to is still "No". And becomes closer to "Hell no" when you factor in the annoyance.

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HermannZeGermann@reddit

That still depends on the situation and requires some pre-planning, but once you have it figured out, the answer is often still Yes. I've had a BEV for 3 years, and I don't have a charger at home (except for the trickle travel charger the car came with). Some people are able to charge cheaply or at no charge at work, some at their gym, some at coffee shops, Half Price Books... you get the point.

Level 3 charging may be more expensive, but it's still in the same order of magnitude as gas. With the added benefit that the electrical price is stable and not as subject to global supply concerns and instability.

When you factor in the annoyance and time spent at gas stations, that shifts the calculus to a resounding Hell Yes for me. My time is worth money. I haven't set foot in a gas station for my personal vehicle in years. Nor am I acutely aware of the current gas prices. And it is glorious.

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Jethro_Tully@reddit

Some people are able to charge cheaply or at no charge at work, some at their gym, some at coffee shops, Half Price Books... you get the point.

Logically I understand the point here, but as someone without work or gym charging, this point always translates to me like inventing errands to kill time while you charge your car.

I fill my car up every 2 weeks at a station that's 50 feet removed from my morning commute on the highway. And I'm at the pump for 90 seconds. I'd hardly call that time sink.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

For most, it's still going to be cheaper, especially at the moment.

My local street side level 2 is $1/hr, so $0.15/kWh. Not going to get anywhere close to that, even if it's twice as much as residential.

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enfuego138@reddit

Any Level 2 charging around here would still be cheaper than an HEV. If you’re fast charging only I would agree, but it’s pretty close with gas prices where they are right now.

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Jethro_Tully@reddit

Very good to know.

The current Prius looks pretty good actually!

Scion xB was the greatest car ever invented for tall people. Big doors, headspace, backseat legroom, and just zippy and agile enough to get around anywhere except mountains.

An xB hybrid would be the perfect utilitarian car for at least 50% of driving Americans. Especially aging ones.

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FriendOfDirutti@reddit

You spelled Honda Element wrong!

JK but for all those reasons I also loved the Element. Plus the rear seats folding up to the sides was glorious for someone in a band.

Selling my 2006 XB is honestly one of my biggest regrets, but also I didn't want to die in a crash because of the way everyone is driving these days

AppointedForrest@reddit

There was a blue one down the street from my old house as well and in the three years I lived there I never saw it move. Those people had an Explorer and an Altima they used daily.

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MasterShogo@reddit

That’s fantastic. The idea of an Altima/Maserati household is just great to me. I am a Miata/old-Civic guy personally, but the Miata is a lot cheaper than the Maserati.

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carsarefuntodrive@reddit

makes me wonder if it actually runs

PersnickityPenguin@reddit

Yeah but then you have to drive a Prius. 🤣

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parker2020@reddit

Such a “I can’t form my own opinion” ass take. It doesn’t look bag, gets great MPG’s, reliable and is practice. What the fuck do you drive 🫩…

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CubanLinxRae@reddit

I think the prius is the best car on the road for most people

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spekt50@reddit

Heh, I recently bought a 6th Gen 4Runner i-Force MAX. They did not go for efficiency with that hybrid drivetrain. I think they were focused on power more with that one. I average 15mpg, though I generally just drive around town.

It's easy to tell that the 4cyl struggles to get the thing moving as I can see my MPG shoot down fast even with a light peddle press. Luckily it still has quite a bit of zip due to the hybrid system. I have no regrets getting it.

I get it though, the 4Runner is a brick on wheels, and I love it.

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cocoagiant@reddit

The other side of that-my parent's Lexus hybrid had to have a repair recently which cost $3k+ and would have cost less than half that if it weren't for the hybrid system.

The repair cost has pretty much wiped out any savings from gas over the last several years.

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altiuscitiusfortius@reddit

What was the repair and are you sure about the price? Labour costs have quadrupled in the last 4 years at every shop in my city. Jobs i was quoted at $300 precovid are now $1500.

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Torczyner@reddit

I do a lot of work on my own vehicles. I have a Jeep for wheeling and I avoided the 4xe because it's crazy easy to work on the 3.6 v6 or their v8. You start adding a huge battery and voltage that will turn me to dust, no can do.

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pdp10@reddit

You start adding a huge battery and voltage that will turn me to dust, no can do.

Yes, I got quotes from multiple mechanics as well as the dealership and went with the one which was the lowest.

I'm fairly sure about that mechanic's honesty as they've previously shown indicators of that such as providing a second opinion that something did not need to be done or showing me how to do something myself so I didn't need to get it done as part of maintenance going forward.

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altiuscitiusfortius@reddit

But the mechanics specifically told you, " too bad this is an ev, I could've done it for half if it was gas"?

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cocoagiant@reddit

Yes he said a lot of the complexity was around discharging the hybrid system and working around it. Confirmed based on quotes.

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Mental_Medium3988@reddit

do they ase's for evs? if not, i dont blame them for being cautious around the high voltage system and charging for it.

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pdp10@reddit

he said a lot of the complexity was around discharging the hybrid system

That makes sense. The conventional voltage limit for working around DC power is 60VDC; for AC it's at least 240VAC.

The OSHA-compliance and tools industry apparently did a good job telling shops about all the orange-colored safety and compliance gear they needed to buy. That's a big factor in why you tend to find independent shops not wanting to deal with higher-voltage, and the rise of upstart, hybrid and EV-specialty shops.

Here's Edd China dropping, repairing, and replacing a Nissan Leaf pack, to illustrate that it's not terribly complex.

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Jam_Bannock@reddit

What was the repair?

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cocoagiant@reddit

Getting the ignition coil and spark plugs changed ($2500).

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boomerbill69@reddit

RX?

That job is famously a pain on the non-hybrids as well. Your parents got screwed for $2500 though.

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cocoagiant@reddit

One of that series yes.

Your parents got screwed for $2500 though.

If you are a mechanic or work in an adjacent field, how much would you have quoted for it?

I checked with 4 different shops and all came in higher, with the dealership being 30% higher.

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boomerbill69@reddit

I've seen most say it's like $600-1000 on a RX350. I think the shop I go to said they do it for about $800 when I asked before, but I plan on DIYing it.

Don't have time to sit down and watch the whole thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbe44V8_a8M I can't imagine the price jumping nearly that much but maybe I'm missing something.

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cocoagiant@reddit

Don't have time to sit down and watch this whole video but the job on a 450h looks pretty much the same as a 350. I can't imagine the price jumping nearly that much but maybe I'm missing something.

Reviewing this thread which includes discussion by Lexus technicians on the work involved for the 450h, the price seems commensurate with the labor hours being discussed.

Like I said, I called multiple shops and the dealership and the price I was quoted by my trusted mechanic was in line with what others quoted me and substantially lower than the dealership cost.

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boomerbill69@reddit

Dang, brutal, guess I can’t really argue it then. Glad I bought the 350 then!

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cocoagiant@reddit

Yup.

I argued against it at the time but "I told you so" doesn't help anybody.

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all depends on the generation and model its in. some were super easy to work on. on some of the older WRX's ive seen guys do a whole head gasket job in the part store lot with basic tools pretty damn quick.

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pdp10@reddit

The subject of the video is about how the dominant hybrid design is a low-stress engine, a medium-sized battery, and two electric motor-generators, all hooked up to a differential.

The entirely accurate point being, that a 1960s automobile had an engine, a small battery, two electric motor-generators, a differential and a separate transmission. One of the motor-generators was the alternator and the other motor-generator was the starter, which had a solenoid triggering a geared pawl to pop out and engage the flywheel to start the car. How weird!

I'm not saying that your parent didn't pay for an expensive repair. I'm just saying that it's not hybrid complexity that made the bill high, because they're not complex. Even a "mild hybrid" is usually just a normal ICE car where the starter and alternator have been combined into one.

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kon---@reddit

Most cars manufacturer recommended oil interval is every 10k miles.

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tiagojpg@reddit

Renault will tell me to change at 30.000km… a Euro6 DPF diesel… I don’t know what they’re smoking.

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lee1026@reddit

Probably a lot of engineering research and testing. A lot.

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tiagojpg@reddit

That’s what I thought too, I trusted the interval for my first oil change. But I drive my car hard on our hills, ups & downs constantly. I still try to hypermile, but the engine takes a beating.

I don’t always drive long distances too, only this year my wife started working a 60km commute (30km each way). I was driving max 40km/day.

An oil change costs me 60-70€ every 6 months or so, do it at home. I’ll keep to the 10k interval for ease of mind.

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Quaiche@reddit

You arbitrarily decided to not trust it while not having issues ?

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tiagojpg@reddit

Valid question. But doing early oil changes is a proven method to make these engines last longer. It’s a popular motor in Portugal; Europe as a whole. The aftermarket knowledge and support is unprecedented. Early oil changes, good diesel with additives and general good maintenance will make it last way past its warranty time.

And again, it’s cheap, I do it myself, no harm.

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Quaiche@reddit

I agree with the logic.

It’s just that you know, early oil changes are indeed safer but it’s also additional costs and technically additional pollution as used oil is not very good for the environment.

Diesel engines designed by European automakers tend to be impossible to kill so personally I would not even think about doing early oil changes but I understand the logic.

I’ve drove Volkswagen group TDI engines for a bit and it’s such robust engines, I would never concern myself with early oil changes or whatever though.

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lee1026@reddit

How do you know that the engine is taking a beating?

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tiagojpg@reddit

I drive it myself… sometimes short drives and high revs.

It’s a very popular car and motor in Europe for over 25 years, with independent mechanics very well trained in maintenance and repairing them.

The 30k intervals are for the 160k km warranty, that’s it. The general consensus in the community is 10k oil and filter changes, with good quality additived diesel. That’s how we can make it last 300 and 400k km.

Some people I know with cars just like mine have rough sound engines and signs of neglect due to poor maintenance. Mine sounds and runs like brand new at 140k km.

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dakta@reddit

It is perfectly reasonable to "second guess" oil change intervals and change the oil more frequently than the basic recommendation.

Ford's 5L F-150 has a recommended oil change interval of 10,000 miles according to the manual. The onboard computer will recommend between 7,500 and 10k. However, if you read the manual and technical service bulletins, you'll learn that 10k is the outer limit for optimal driving conditions: smooth flat highways. If you tow (anything!), drive in dusty conditions (anywhere off road in the Rockies and west in the summer), spend too much time idling, spend too much time on the highway, or take short trips you qualify for special operating conditions that recommend maximum 5k mile intervals.

Toyota has the exact same thing. Their definition of short trips is anything under five miles in cold temperatures. Low speed driving, lots of stop and go, is also out. Also hot temperatures, >90F.

Oh, and if you have a turbo engine it's even less. Toyota says turbocharged vehicles should have their oil changed every 2,500 but you can do the filter every 5,000: https://assets.sia.toyota.com/publications/en/omms-s/98ALLMS_MS0004/pdf/98ALLMS_MS004.pdf

Note: Turbocharged vehicles that are driven under the "Special Operating Conditions" listed above should change their engine oil at 2,500-mile intervals. It is not necessary, however, to change the oil filter at 2,500-mile intervals. Both the engine oil and filter should be replaced at the 5,000-mile intervals.

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FentmaxxerActual@reddit

The guys who designed the car have to fight with the bean counters, and the end product is what goes into the manual. I would run some UOAs before extending out to 30k km.

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Elvis1404@reddit

Volvo V60 D2 from 2017 has the same interval, at 390k km it still works perfectly fine...

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tiagojpg@reddit

It sounds like you’re driving long distances and take good care of your car though. The short distance driver that doesn’t care when a DPF regen is running, probably doesn’t know it’s not supposed to shut the engine off during one.

gropingpriest@reddit

haha if you go to any enthusiast forum/group/subreddit they will ALL swear you will ruin your engine if you go more than 5k miles. Many will claim 3k miles.

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Torczyner@reddit

Wouldn't an enthusiast be using the car differently? For example my Porsche is a 2018 with 8k miles. I'm not waiting until it's 10 years old to change the oil once. So every 3k miles would be correct here, really about 2k miles.

Or my race car, got oil changes after every event.

So yes, enthusiasts may do more changes due to their driving habits.

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enaK66@reddit

My car sees redline on an almost daily basis and changing every 5000 is less than 3x a year for me. They cost $40 a piece. So about $100 a year is pretty cheap insurance to me.

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PM_ME_A_Pic_@reddit

This is always my take. Environmental concerns aside, oil and a filter is so cheap even if I change it every 5000 miles I’m still going to be waaaay ahead on having to replace the engine. For me, that’s 1-2 extra oil changes every year, so an extra $100 or so a year.

If that saves me from a $7000+ engine replacement and the headache involved in sourcing/installing it and the devaluation from a non-original engine, I’m more than willing to “waste” the money.

The only downside is it takes away the easy excuse for an LS swap, and I think I can live with that.

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I spend time on the subreddit for the 11th gen Accord and you’ll find no shortage of people there recommending 5k and 3k intervals. Definitely enthusiasts of a sort but they’re not doing track days… I hope.

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w0nderbrad@reddit

Nissan Altima drivers are doing track days on the freeway and they just top off the oil every 5000 miles and hope for the best.

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otterland@reddit

Hondas have a monitor system that works perfectly. My older Hondas pop around 7k. As oil is cheap I just do it with a filter every other time as Honda recommends..

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gropingpriest@reddit

Nah, I meant enthusiast in a more general sense, not people doing track days or hard driving on twisties.

for example I'm a member of an Armada group and a 4Runner group and you see threads once a week arguing oil change intervals and usually the most liked/upvoted comments are people calling for 5k or lower.

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SnooChipmunks2079@reddit

I drive maybe 2500 miles a year most years.

My last car was a GTI and I just started making up the service intervals. Oil change once a year, DSG service every 4-5 years, etc.

My current car is an EV and there’s basically nothing but tires and washer fluid.

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ggtsu_00@reddit

Because they drive BMWs (or other cars with BMW engines) which leak oil like there is no tomorrow.

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RevvCats@reddit

Seriously, like I was shocked when I saw Ford claim 10k mile intervals and then I tested it repeatedly with the oil analysis results to back it up and yeah off the shelf Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Castrol did 10k without issue. These were their basic “full synthetic” oils not the fancy EP formulas. I even did it with 5w-20 which everyone also claims without evidence is only used because Ford wants my engine destroyed so I buy a new car sooner.

Manufacturers want to please regulators with low waste, and consumers with low maintenance costs, so the incentives are to stretch out the change intervals even if it means expensive fluids. Their number can be too high.

My 2010 Toyota Prius gets 45mpg with oil changes every 6k.

It’s approaching 200k and the FACTORY brakes are just now letting me know they need replacing.
The water pump went out before the brakes.

My weekend car is a 24 Ranger.

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Continental-IO520@reddit

They're great until the battery goes. Happened to my partner's Honda Insight. Basically bricked the car, although I wish I had more info on what actually happened since I wasn't there at the time this happened.

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Anon198791@reddit

You will absolutely wreck your engine if you're going 10k between oil changes... 5k-6k should be your interval between changes.

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Quasic@reddit

I'm very much an ICE or fully electric guy. I like a lightweight gas car or an electric sedan, and hybrid was just a compromise I was not interested in.

My company has me driving a hybrid CR-V, and I'm completely sold on the concept. Incredible milage, and its responsive enough for the city driving its used for.

If they take it away, I don't think I could resist getting a hybrid Accord. Not amazing at any one thing, but really good at everything.

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roger_enright@reddit

I just daily the 996.

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parker2020@reddit

I want a turbo bad… and I’m still salty I let a 996 gt3 slip by

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roger_enright@reddit

Sympathy. Both of those cars are a win. Keep searching!

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Mental_Medium3988@reddit

ford cmax and whenever i get to it after it yells at me for an oil change. other than rear wheel bearings its been cheap af. i did go through a front set of used tires quicker than maybe i shouldve oh well.

i need to get the wiring on my 1981 f150 done and thatll be my weekend car. either way the good economy of max lets me do things like drive from seattle to laguna seca and back to watch the imsa races. and with the increased costs of fuel it still was less than what itd cost to fill my coworkers tank, relatively new chevy 1500, to commute or near to it.

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jontss@reddit

What's the oil change thing about? That's the same as ICE vehicles.

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parker2020@reddit

You’re changing the oil in your 944 every 10k?

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jontss@reddit

Not that one but my X3 called for 22k km which is about 14k miles.

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A_ChadwickButMore@reddit

I think the new Prius are so cool looking especially in blue or yellow but they cost twice what I wound up getting, a Corolla.

Somehow tho, the regular Corolla gets 50mpg anyway since I drive almost entirely on highways. It's closer to 30 in town.

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daegojoe@reddit

It is the planetary gearsets that are the smarts , not electrons. All hybrids show us that efficiency is king, the ICE hasn’t evolved since DI. If only there was a fuel to create even more efficiency

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In the U.S., federal tax corresponds pretty closely to the energy content, at .184 per American gallon for petrol and .244 for diesel. Where there are options, ethanol mix is always cheaper in total price. Not surprising with half the agricultural acreage of the continent in maize and soybeans. It would be cheaper and more efficient to trade petrofuel for sugarcane ethanol from Brazil (or even Hawaii), but that would meet neither nation's political imperatives.

The UK is now going from E5 to E10. 10% is the old "gasohol" blend from the 1970s and early 1980s, and is now predominant in the U.S. although never called gasohol any more.

Very very glad I drive a Rav4 Hybrid, that thing gets 37+mpg no matter how I drive, it's quite good.

Driving my previous vehicle (Tacoma) with these gas prices would not be fun! At $5/gal, that would be >$150 more per month in gas just from my commute (vs. the Rav4; approx 1000mi/month).

With gas at $3.20/gal, the difference was "only" $91/mo. Still a lot, but man, it adds up.

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Practicality_Issue@reddit

I had a 2010 Prius. I want to say I put 90-100k miles on it and never touched the brake pads.

I honestly bought an EV simply to reduce maintenance costs altogether. While the maintenance on a Hybrid is lower than a regular ICE car, it is not lower than an EV only car. It also has far less parts that may break or need maintenance.

https://i.imgur.com/M0NWdyg.jpeg

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parker2020@reddit

I’ve run into Porsche cup guys and they’re like they are the most aggressive tires they’d run. Slicks may cause axle issues (allegedly)

HEVs/PHEVs are good if you don't have great EV charging coverage where you live, or like to do roadtrips to more isolated and remote areas (camping, hiking, etc...)

But yeah, for most day-to-day driving in developped areas with good infrastructure, EVs make a lot of sense. HEVs/PHEVs just give you the added benefit of a gasoline power source

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banned_from_r_cars@reddit

Huge misunderstanding in your first sentence. Like yeah you need home charging. But you almost never charge within like 50 miles of your house, why would you?

You can easily live in an EV desert, you just have to take road trips where there is charging, which is basically any city or "destination" that isn't the middle of the woods.

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3600CCH6WRX@reddit

If you’re doing offgrid camping, yeah, an EV isn’t ideal. I usually only look for campsites that are within 50–70 miles of a DCFC or have electric hookups. I do a lot of car camping, and honestly this has been the best car for it. I’ve owned Subarus for decades, and this thing is out-“Subaru-ing” my Subaru.

I just did a camping trip 180 miles away. Loaded all my gear in the car, pressed one button, and it basically drove me there. Plugged into the RV pedestal overnight, woke up with a full charge, and slept in the car with climate control on the whole night.

Only thing I wish it had was better ground clearance. Some trails are a little too much for it.

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davo747@reddit

Depends on the use case. BEV’s are phenomenal commuter and light road trip cars, but that’s about it. The wife and I both drive a lot for work, and I tow a race car. A BEV wouldn’t quite be enough for the work trips, and an EV truck (while awesome), wouldn’t be able to tow the distances I need.

We have two hybrids instead (CRV, F-150), and they’re great.

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VanSora@reddit

You’re not account for depreciation and that the BEV becomes a much better proposition if you own a garage where you can charge

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3600CCH6WRX@reddit

Yeah I agree with depreciation but that’s buying new car. But also some BEV depreciation data is skewed because they are more premium models to begin with.

Buy used if depreciation is concern.

Also I agree that having place to charge is a requirement for an EV ownership. For now it feels more of a homeowner perk than an actual transportation benefit.

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imped4now@reddit

69 MPG

Nice.

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Beekatiebee@reddit

My Lexus ES is the same, though a little more frequent on the oil change.

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aoeudhtns@reddit

A non plug in hybrid is simpler but still more complex than just having an ICE

It's not mechanically more complex. Which is the most amazing thing.

The eCVT, despite the name, is not even a transmission, really. It's more like a differential between 2 electric motors
The Atkinson-cycle engine means port injection vs. direct, no turbo or supercharger to compensate for smaller displacement or fewer cylinders.
There's not even a starter, because one of the motors takes that duty
Everything is electric, no belt or vacuum lines to power auxiliary components and accessories
Following from #4, there's no alternator - the motors also take that duty

that integration complexity can’t be completely dismissed.

The tech is ~30 years old and that part has been solved.

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Me neither. It’s an hour long. God I miss actual written content.

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bobovicus@reddit

Oh hush, go doomscroll on TikTok

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Educational_Fox6899@reddit

Interesting reply. I’ll go check out all that written content on tik tok. /s

Interesting to see that Reddit prefers an hour long video to reading a five minute article. That helps explain the US reading comprehension scores.

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kobriks@reddit

There is zero difference, it's both just a stream of words. You can increase the playback rate if it's too slow for you. Or just download the transcript of the video and read it.

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Educational_Fox6899@reddit

You’re missing the point. I would rather read a concise article that can easily convey the same info as that hour long video. A well written article is not the same as a transcript. It’s just another example of how shitty the internet has become.

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kobriks@reddit

I meant that articles are not inherently better. You might just as well get a shitty 1h-long article, or a great 5-minute video.

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Educational_Fox6899@reddit

Yeah in that case give me the video, but by and large video takes more time to consume information. I want to read a simple how to in repairing my car for example, not watch you’re 30 min video where I hear your life story.

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Car-face@reddit (OP)

Well, a plug in hybrid definitely requires most of the charging systems of an EV and retains ICE complexity (albeit theoretically less maintenance). It seems like the theoretical person you’re arguing with is thinking all hybrids are plug-ins.

A non plug in hybrid is simpler but still more complex than just having an ICE, and that integration complexity can’t be completely dismissed.

Just watch the video.

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PRSArchon@reddit

No video can explain a plug in hybrid is less complex than an ICE, because they are way more complex. A regular hybrid can be simpler than a normal ICE if well designed.

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luca123@reddit

You didn't watch the video.

Also, most modern plugin hybrids are fundamentally the same as non-plugin counterparts with a larger battery and a simple charger.

You know what covers the exact points you mentioned? The video.

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PRSArchon@reddit

I watched the video and what you state is not correct. Onboard AC to DV chargers and HV to LV dv converters are expensive extra parts a simple mild hybrid with a belt driven motor/generator doesnt need. Battery management of a HV battery is much more complex, so is the battery itself.

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luca123@reddit

You said

No video can explain a plug in hybrid is less complex than an ICE, because they are way more complex.

Then, you said

A regular hybrid can be simpler than a normal ICE if well designed.

My point is that, using the latest Prius as an example of a very well designed hybrid by all accounts, the only fundamental differences between the Hybrid and Plug-in Hybrid versions of those are are:

a larger battery
onboard charging hardware
better battery thermal management

Toyota already engineered the HV battery management, DC-DC conversion, inverter system, and hybrid controls into the regular Prius. The Plug-in version is an extension of that architecture, not a fundamentally different vehicle that is "way more complex".

So yes, there is definitely added BOM cost but if you speak to the people who work on these vehicles daily (which I have) there really isn't much added complexity. It would make no sense for Toyota to offer both SKUs if that was the case.

So I primarily take issue with your original comment where you saying hybrids can be less complex than an ICE, but plugin hybrids are WAY more complex. Your use of cost = complexity also pokes holes in that, since the normal hybrids are generally more expensive than ICE counterparts. I just don't get the basis for your thoughts fundamentally and you haven't provided any sources.

Regarding your latest comment which states:

an EV battery will last decades (less than 50 cycles a year) while a PHEV battery can reach the end of its useless [sic] life within 10 years (lets say 200 cycles a year)

Toyota says that if the Prius PHEV traction battery loses more than 30% of its capacity over 10 years and 150,000 miles, that is abnormal and covered by warranty. Meaning, over the course of its warranty period it will typically have lost ~13mi of its electric range which is 2% of its total combined range.

Your e-golf seems to have a 8-year or 100,000-mile warranty that also sets the same 30% limit. Over the course of its warranty period the egolf will have typically lost ~37mi of range, which is 30% of its total range since that's its only source of energy. Not to mention the worse warranty conditions that.

Do you disagree with that logic? I'd love to hear how you came to the numbers you stated above as well

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PRSArchon@reddit

Im not going to comment on the first part because you seem to agree plug ins have very expensive and complex additional parts over a regular hybrid, but somehow want to disagree for no reason.

The second part is simple, PHEVs are designed to have enough range for a regular commute. A lot of people buy them with the intention to cycle the battery every working day. The average person works over 200 days a year, thus 200 cycles a year. The realistic lifetime of a battery is typically in the range of 1500 cycles. An EV has a larger battery thus cycles way less, typically less than 1 a week, thus 50 cycles a year. So the EV will last way more than your stated 8 or 10 years. The PHEV will not.

My eGolf is roughly 8 years old and tbe battery has degraded significantly because its range was small to begin with. Modern EVs dont have that issue anymore. But PHEV degrades much faster because they have small batteries by design.

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CorrectCombination11@reddit

A non plug in hybrid is simpler but still more complex than just having an ICE, and that integration complexity can’t be completely dismissed.

mortalomena@reddit

Did you watch the video? :D You have no clue what the Toyota E-CVT is and how it operates.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

I just explained how it operates. It's been on the market since I was 12 and my age starts with a 4.

How is it like a differential exactly?

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Because you can't. How would you change gear ratios?

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mck1117@reddit

If by transmission you mean an entity that turns energy into mechanical action, sure, the sienna has one; similarly, I am a transmission that turns calories into forward motion.

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dd3mon@reddit

A CVT is still a transmission, the current Toyota ones are less complex and less prone to problems than the new 8+ speed automatics out there, but it's not a perfect system without any tradeoffs either.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

It's not a CVT.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

That's true, but it absolutely is a transmission. They don't use the series setup like Honda and Nissan do.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

But they're not talking about eCVT. eCVT are essentially indestructible unless you have an highway frontal or something. They are not reliant on a synchro or clutch or belts. Just a bunch of gears coupled together forever. Watch the video.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

Toyota's eCVT uses a planetary gear set and a generator to virtually create a CVT, but it's most similar to a traditional automatic.

The entire point of a geared transmission is to be able to vary the connection between engine speed and wheel speed.

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Branding wise it is unfortunate to lump it in with Jatco, but it’s still a CVT

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MornwindShoma@reddit

No, because it's not a transmission but a differential between the engines. The wheels are attached to MG2z

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Trevski@reddit

Attached to MG2 … resulting in a continuously variable gear ratio between the ICE and the wheels.

Finished the sentence for you.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

But the transmission handles ratio between a motor and wheels, not three motors/generators.

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Trevski@reddit

Transmission just means get torque over here and send it over there. There’s no rule that motors can’t be constituents of a transmission.

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I won't elaborate further because it's a dumb technicality that's not adding anything.

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viperabyss@reddit

The point is to clarify the misconception that somehow CVT = bad, but Toyota's eCVT != CVT. It's an important technicality.

Or are we just circlejerking on misconceptions in a sub about being educated about cars?

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lmao, toroidal and belt driven CVT are mechanically different, yet they're both called CVT. Again, just because you have a negative predisposition against belt-driven CVT, doesn't mean all CVT are shit, or that non-belt driven CVTs are suddenly not CVTs because of...reasons.

This is like arguing that the "automatic" transmission advertised in VW Golf adds confusion to the actual automatic transmission. Kind of ironic for people in this sub who supposedly know more about cars, to be so confused about what CVTs are.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

No one is talking about CVT or their reliability. Have a good day.

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viperabyss@reddit

You literally kicked off the argument that eCVT for some unknown reason, isn't considered CVT.

...and how is eCVT not connected to the wheels? The ring gear drives the wheel, while generator motor drives the sun gear to modulate the engine input to the planetary gear, achieving infinite ratios.

I honestly think you actually don't know how eCVT works.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

The ring gear is connected to MG2, not the wheels. Do you know how eCVT works?

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DaggumTarHeels@reddit

It is a "continuously variable transmission"

Unironically, yes.

a generator…and motors.

Brothers, a generator is a motor, they are the same thing.

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ag2f@reddit

Of course it is, anything electrical is simpler than mechanical.

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Hnry_Dvd_Thr_Awy@reddit

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I agree that the eCVT is a good design and is well sorted. But "anything electrical is simpler than mechanical" are we memeing?

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ag2f@reddit

Not really, by simpler we mean to maintain of course, electronics don't have wear and tear like mechanical. Eletric motors for once last over 300 thousand miles without any maintenance, what ICE can do that?

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lee1026@reddit

Electric motors is still a moving part, and not quite what most people mean when they say that electronics always win.

They mean things that literally don’t move. Most the complexities in the Prius transmission stems from a complicated power electronics that literally don’t move.

Hellish complicated to design and explain compared to a tradition transmission, but much easier to make reliable.

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Hnry_Dvd_Thr_Awy@reddit

Not really, by simpler we mean to maintain of course

Oh, okay.

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lee1026@reddit

This is a common attitude from electrical engineers. Mechanical Es often disagree.

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Hnry_Dvd_Thr_Awy@reddit

That reminds me. At a previous job I worked with ME, EE, and SWEs... boyyyyy did we have some talks. lol

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SelfServeSporstwash@reddit

It has a dramatically lower failure rate and longer service life... so do with that what you will.

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CorrectCombination11@reddit

Yes!

Non moving part vs moving part.

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HermannZeGermann@reddit

Generators and motors are most certainly moving parts.

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People said EFI was more complex than carburetors but nobody bats an eye these days looking at EFI.

It takes way more knowledge and technology to troubleshoot EFI. The likelihood of being able to troubleshot and fix EFI at home vs a carburetor is way less.

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gaius49@reddit

Yep, EFI is a lot more complex. Its more performant, and better for emissions, but claiming its less complex reveals a pretty poor understanding of the system as a whole.

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pdp10@reddit

I maintain, that the integration and calibration of a hybrid system is still more complex than a traditional ICE powertrain

Yes. There's a significant amount of embedded software to write, compared to dropping an engine and manual trans into a kit car and letting human wetware and a limited-slip diff act as the traction control.

Alas, automatic traction control has been legally required on production cars in the U.S. since 2012, meaning that the government requires automakers to write half of that embedded software anyway, hybrid or not.

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PurdontS2k@reddit

I think you over estimate 1) how often propulsion software engineers talk to the chassis controls guys 2) how many OEMs develop their own chassis controls rather than outsource it to suppliers

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DarthRambo007@reddit

A non plug in hybrid is simpler but still more complex than just having an ICE, and that integration complexity can’t be completely dismissed.

they are less mechanically complex than ice, especialy the parallel hybrids.

All they need is one planetary gear set . while ice has a whole gear set 1-5 and reverse plus a clutch etc

maybe the software is complex but a phone processor could calculate all of it and its all set and done.

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shreddedsharpcheddar@reddit

maintaining that hybrid integration is more complex is maintaining ignorance. i applaud you for sticking to your guns though

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TheRealAbiril@reddit

I think there's 2 different types of complexity at play, one is mechanical and the other is the software/programming side.

DTM-shift@reddit

That's our situation. When I drive for work, it's minimum one hour on the highway and usually more like 3+ hours each way. Her driving is almost exclusively within a 20-mile radius. Cheap EV for her, quite efficient ICE for me. A hybrid could do both, but we wanted to give an EV a go (zero gas is a nice thing) and my manual VW wagon is a perfect fit for my work needs - and gets 42-48 mpg highway. Why change, when we already get very good efficiency at a lower price than hybrids?

Would a hybrid do either job? Without a doubt. We bought the used EV - a Bolt - cheaper than any similar size used hybrid of that age and low miles at the time (COVID pricing, ugh), and a hybrid would not really provide much benefit for the long highway drives I do (up to 10 hours each way). Could pay more upfront and obtain not much of a benefit, *for our case*. When I'm done with this traveling job, then I'll look at a hybrid or second EV.

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kejdzejek@reddit

Good, let the ppl shame them for being, ,,boring” i will enjoy my hybrid q50s even more, 7-9l/100km with a normal 7 at rhat revs up to 7k+rpm, amazing

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TrainingGrape540@reddit

And people still want to complain about hybrids being more complex and costing more like bro Honda and Toyota hybrids are tried and tested

You won’t have any problems for the next 15 years maybe even 20 years and battery replacements are only like 3k and you can always rebuild batteries for cheap and disposal practices definitely have gotten better for sure oh and they’re super cheap to maintain like your basic oil changes that’s pretty much it aside from tires and brakes

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Agreeable-Process-56@reddit

My friend has a CRV hybrid. She gets 32 m per gallon. Brand new car. My brand new Rav4 has car gets 32 m per gallon. We live in an area where we do almost no city driving which I assume explains the lack of efficiency in her hybrid. I thought about buying a hybrid when I chose my Toyota but decided to get the regular one for that reason, the lack of city driving (and the extra expense of the hybrid, it seemed like it would not be justified by the mileage saved). Seems I was right.

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TrainingGrape540@reddit

That is a good point however the hybrid is just a better model than the base non-hybrid model simply because it’s more responsive than the NA engine and even the 1.5T and the eCVT is just a much better driving experience than the CVT like it actually feels good so sure efficiency is only in the city but the rest of the car is a massive step up with what a base model is while also being reliable too

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Agreeable-Process-56@reddit

That’s true. But so much more expensive. The other thing to consider is how nasty the process for getting/making the batteries is. We all talk about the pollution the gas burning causes, and that’s absolutely right it’s horrible, but the making and processing of those batteries is horrendous.

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huffalump1@reddit

My Rav4 Hybrid gets 38mph all day though, mostly highway.

Could be even better with more efficient tires, lower ride height, and no mudflaps (I have the Woodland).

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rickhamilton620@reddit

To be fair, the Honda hybrid system’s biggest weak point is highway driving due to its mostly serial nature.

It can somewhat directly drive the wheels above a certain speed but only at a fixed ratio that isn’t advantageous for high speed driving.

The serial-parallel system that Toyota uses is far more efficient.

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TrainingGrape540@reddit

True but I just like that the Honda hybrid engine is more responsive than the base NA engine and eCVT > CVT every way possible

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mihjok@reddit

This was true until the Toyota's Gen4 hybrid system. Gen5 can coast in EV mode even at 60-70 mph, so if the road is not flat, it can improve mpg even outside of city driving

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cakeyogi@reddit

I can't speak for other manufacturers, but a modern Toyota hybrid (not I force MAX, but regular hybrid) has the following benefits:

No accessory belts
Port injection for clean valves
Brakes that go hundreds of thousands of miles without replacement
Transmissions that rarely fail, even when you neglect to replace the fluid
Effortless 45+ mpg
Quieter, smoother, with instant electric torque
Lower cost of ownership after only a few years
10-year, 150k mile battery warranty

Ah! A device among many, that is in hybrids but doesn't exist in ICE cars and EVs. You just supported my initial statement that hybrids are more complicated. Thanks little buddy! 🤘

I think we're done here.

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absolute_imperial@reddit

It's not more complicated if it simplifies the alternative method of power transfer. You're brain is cooked.

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BetterGoogleit17@reddit

Apparently putting words in my mouth is the only argument you have. Classy. /s

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n0t_4_thr0w4w4y@reddit

This video is literally demonstrating how Toyota’s eCVT hybrid is mechanically simpler than a traditional ICE + transmission setup.

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The video isn't comparing the complexity of hybrids to BEVs, it's comparing the complexity of hybrids to conventional ICE vehicles (because the common, false, argument is that "hybrids are more complex than ICE vehicles", and the video goes into a deep dive on why that logic is wrong).

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Shmackentush@reddit

When we bought our Rav4 Hybrid (in Canada), it was a $1500 premium to get hybrid vs. non-hybrid.

That summer gas went to over $2 a litre (so like $7.60 USD per gallon).

We already recouped that additional cost in the first two years, and here we are, back at $2/litre gas.

Grateful that we have it, because the other cars are a Minivan and a Volvo.

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Atomichawk@reddit

Even here in the states with our historically lower gas cost, that math holds true. My break even point got hit even faster with these higher prices recently

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MotelSans17@reddit

Toyota hybrids are mechanically simpler than conventional ICE cars. That is a fact. The higher cost comes from the battery and the more specialized parts required, but they are surprisingly simple. The secret sauce is in the programming.

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CorrectCombination11@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1t679gv/comment/okfdxor/

You are the video's intended audience.

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themickeymauser@reddit

“All the complexity of a BEV and all the complexity of an ICE car” except both aspects are under 50% less stress than their dedicated counterparts.

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theycallmeAQ@reddit

I've been driving a prius since 2013, and never looked back. Dead cheap maintenance + super super fuel savings. And then since 2013, I've had a 450whp tuned integra, an Evo 8 MR 570whp, and then a stage 2 tuned w204 c63 as a weekend drive. What you save during the week, you burn on the weekend 🥹

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DrPop1221@reddit

honestly im looking at a used prius this year and the more i read the less scary they seem. friend has one over 200k miles still on og battery, hard to argue with that

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hardsoft@reddit

The whole "extra complexity equals less reliability" thing is annoying to begin with.

There can be a correlation but it's definitely not a law of physics or something and kind of absurd to use as a proxy value when we have more direct measures of reliability to begin with.

The Prius hybrid is one of if not the most reliable vehicles you can buy. The Pacifica hybrid one of the least. Would be absurd to make a generalized statement about either vehicle's reliability based purely on its drivetrain architecture rather than you know, its historical reliability...

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time_alliance@reddit

I feel like people miss the point because they only see hybrids as "halfway to EVs," but that's selling them short. They're perfect for people who can't install home chargers, or who do a ton of highway miles where EV range anxiety is a real pain. You get way better city MPG than a gas car, none of the charging hassle, and the engine doesn't have to work as hard, so it's smoother and more reliable long-term. They're not a "compromise"-they're a practical solution for a lot of drivers.

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greenpowerman99@reddit

Toyota hybrid drive system is absolute genius. Less moving parts than a regular manual or automatic.

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CodeBlue_04@reddit

My Highlander gets better gas mileage than my motorcycle.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I'm pretty sure Toyota sacrificed a virgin.

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mini4x@reddit

Motorcycles are a funny lot when it comes to mpg, My Speed Triple I've gotten tanks that get me over 40 mpg, I've also seen as low as around 18... Really depends on your day, and the road.

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Beekatiebee@reddit

Ford uses the same system on the Maverick and Escape, formerly the Fusion as well (rip).

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HawkDriver@reddit

They licensed the technology from Toyota.

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Mental_Medium3988@reddit

they developed it separately at the same time and both licensed each others so as to not be subject to lawsuits.

Ftpini@reddit

Ah well having the 10 speed is half the problem. The manual is so much more enjoyable. As for spinning tires, you just needed to throw better tires on. The stock tires are fine, but they’re never going to put all that power down.

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banned_from_r_cars@reddit

The stock on the performance package were Michelin Pilot Sport 4s(when they were new) and I lived in AZ so they were appropriate, a damn good tire. And I'd smoke through a rear set every like 15k miles lmao 💸💸💸

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Ftpini@reddit

That’s how my Model 3 performance was, but all 4 tires. I was running Pilot Sport AS4. The tires alone were adding $0.09 per mile making them twice as expensive as the electricity to run the damn car! I’ve spent almost twice as much on gas for the Mustang in 1 year as I did on electricity for the full 4 years I had the Model 3.

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Monster_Dumps_2026@reddit

There are 2 different hybrids. And the general public doesn't understand that. So when people complain about hybrids I don't know which one you're complaining about

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It's also worth pointing out that they can be built in a completely different way. Toyota PHEV are still used tried and tested eCVT setup they've pioneered with Prius. But most EU manufacturers offers these systems as basically an addition to regular ICE car. There is normal drivetrain with auto/DCT box and electric motor is just sandwiched between engine and gearbox.

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pdp10@reddit

There is normal drivetrain with auto/DCT box and electric motor is just sandwiched between engine and gearbox.

vargemp@reddit

But Toyotas Plug-in works exactly same way as non plug-in. It just has bigger battery and this stronger motors.

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vargemp@reddit

I always say, if you want reliable automatic car, buy anything e-cvt equipped, maybe Honda hybrid.

VW may join that club eventually later this year, we'll see. I also like the chineese DHT transmission design, but not sure it's been proven yet.

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xqk13@reddit

Leave it to Ford to mess up a eCVT execution lol

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sponge_welder@reddit

You mean the Cmax transmission from like 2013?

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Vroomy_vroom_vroom@reddit

I can understand the first and second gen of hybrids as some of them had issues and battery life problems. Most of those have been addressed with better tech and software. One thing I do look at when considering a hybrid is the estimated battery life and replacement cost (for my family since I can’t drive them), is calculate what they’d be saving over their current vehicle. Vast majority of the time it balances out if not have plenty of savings. Since I take into consideration maintenance cost, tires, battery replacement etc.

I only wish I didn’t get motion sickness in electric and hybrids as bad as I do. Hopefully my brain adjust one day for me to enjoy them for more than 20 minutes before getting sick.

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mikewinddale@reddit

The argument that plug-in hybrids (PHEV) have all the complexity of both BEV and ICE is a stupid argument because the whole point of a PHEV is to have the complexity of both. That's the whole point!

someexgoogler@reddit

and yet hybrids outsell EVs.

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Elvis1404@reddit

Full-hybrids are amazing

Plug-In hybrids are useful only for a small niche of people, and have pretty important reliability concerns

Mild-hybrids are almost pointless, they were created only to get around EU regulations

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ag2f@reddit

Plug-in hybrids are useful only for a small niche of people, and have pretty big reliability concerns

Why? Care to explain?

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HermannZeGermann@reddit

They're useful for a small niche of people with very short commutes and who are diligent about always plugging in at home to charge.

But the electrical range of PHEVs is equivalent to about a gallon of gas. So on a day-to-day basis, many PHEV owners simply... don't charge daily. And at that point, the PHEV effectively becomes a HEV but with the significant added weight of the bigger battery system.

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ag2f@reddit

My PHEV has 62 miles of real world range, not sure what car does that on a gallon of gas.

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HermannZeGermann@reddit

Well a Prius, for one.

There are still far more gas stations than chargers

It still takes far longer to recharge an EV, even with DCFC, than to fill up a gas tank

Gas cars also (currently) have longer range on average

With EV, you still have to plan your trip with charging in mind. With gas, you don't.

So yeah, I guess except for the major things that are different, it's pretty much the same

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

That sounds like you've never done one. With an EV or gas, I plan for food and that's it.

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asad137@reddit

Bruh I've taken tons of road trips. I only plan my destinations. Any intermediate stops are opportunistic.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

That's how it is with either drivetrain.

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HermannZeGermann@reddit

And those people should absolutely get a PHEV and be diligent about plugging in every day.

Anecdotally though, people do seem to overestimate the number of 250+ mile road trips they take. There's a difference between taking a 250 mile road trip and wanting a car that is capable of going on a 250 mile road trip without any pre-planning.

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asad137@reddit

And those people should absolutely get a PHEV and be diligent about plugging in every day.

I got a phev hyundai. I don’t charge it but still get at least 50mpg. The phev version has a bigger electric motor compared to non phev, and the larger battery increases my regen capacity, cruising on the highway charges the battery, and given my long commutes, it often charges my battery halfway. I only get 50mpg because i drive it extremely hard like driving a rental, and I out in almost 40k miles per year with no issues…. So no clue what you’re saying about these reliability issues and higher fuel consumption, but I did buy it because of the tax reductions

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Elvis1404@reddit

A full hybrid Toyota does the exact same thing, but with less weight, even better fuel consumption and lower price. If you only use your engine to charge the battery, why even get a plug-in?

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fraviklopvai@reddit

For that sweet sweet tax incentive. But also if i drove a non hybrid, i would be getting worst fuel consumption

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ag2f@reddit

Many people buy them without having a charging place near them (because of tax reductions), so they almost always drive them around with an empty battery

That's on the user, no issue with the tech.

making fuel consumption even higher than a normal ICE car (they have to move around the weight of a pretty big battery, bigger than full hybrids, and an electric engine),

False and a common misconception, when the battery is on low state of charge PHEVs work like HEVs, even considering the added weight they will still have better consumption than an ICE.

Plug-in cars have both a combustion engine and an electric engine with a pretty big battery, so you have both the failure points of a conventional and electric car

Theoretically yes, but the EV system requires no maintenance, none, zero. You could always have a lemon motor, but that's usually covered by extremely long warranties, sometimes over 8 years.

the combustion engine is often turned off or used just for a few minutes, and that's pretty bad for an engine's health (engines like to be regularly driven for long periods of time, not driven twice a month and/or for a few minutes)

Driving the combustion engine for low commutes is even worse, on a PHEV the engine is used to longer commutes which is the best use case for ICE. Conventional hybrids turn on and off the ICE much more frequently.

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Elvis1404@reddit

How is it possible to have a lower fuel consumption than ICE car when you have the same engine but more weight? It's literally impossible, in fact in my country there are a lot of people complaining that the plug-in car they got for tax breaks gets awful fuel consumption (they never charge the battery).

Statistics say that plug-in hybrids are among the least reliable cars, with around 80% more failures than comparable ICE cars.

Just get a full hybrid and enjoy amazingly low fuel consumption, better reliability, full-electric city driving and no charging problems

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ag2f@reddit

How is it possible to have a lower fuel consumption than ICE car when you have the same engine but more weight? It's literally impossible

The car works as a HEV, did you miss that part? Do you that a HEV with extra 440 lbs will sundenly perform worse than a ICE? That makes no sense!

People are probably setting up their PHEVs to charge the battery to full instead of using as a HEV when reaching a low state of charge and complaining because they are too dumb to educate themselves.

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Elvis1404@reddit

They might have a better fuel consumption than ICE cars, but still worse than full-hybrids

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ag2f@reddit

If you are dumb and don't charge

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pdp10@reddit

Mild hybrids combined the starter and alternator together, and used it to supply a little extra power at wide throttle, instead of sitting there doing nothing most of the time. Can probably get a bit of regen, too. And then move to a better battery than 12V, to make use of all this.

That's not to completely warm up the car. Depending on car it's partially even there to compensate for not driving.

For example due to regulation the catalytic converter needs to warm up fast. To ensure it happens quickly, the car runs rich and has a raised idle. Both are very bad on a cold engine. Driving warms up the catalytic converter faster. Less time spend running rich on a cold engine.

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Facuk_@reddit

Idk, it happens everytime when I turn on the car

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n0t_4_thr0w4w4y@reddit

the were created just to get around EU regulations

Huh? The Prius has been around since 1997, and wasn’t even released in the EU until 2000

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Elvis1404@reddit

So I guess it also heavily depends on the country you reside in.

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Elvis1404@reddit

Can't you get the same tax benefits with most full-hybrids?

Yeah, if you drive both short commutes AND long trips fairly regularly plug-ins are amazing but, at least in my country, it's an extremely niche use

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TheAntiAirGuy@reddit

Plug-In Hybrids are better with their emissions at the European WLTP test, because this test assumes you'll be driving in EV mode for as long as possible, thus having ~50-120km driving with zero emissions.

Thus regular Hybrids, by not having such a long pure EV range, only get marginally better emissions results and become of this the tax benefits fall pretty short.

For companies the same, (Sachbezug) Google is telling me it's called Benefit in kind. 2% for regular Hybrids while being 1.5% PHEV and EV 0%

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tejanaqkilica@reddit

I never cared to learn much about hybrids, but I thought their whole schtick was, use electric power to drive in low speeds, inside the city, switch to their ice powertrain to drive at higher speeds outside the city, usually highways.

Was I wrong in this assumption?

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asad137@reddit

watch the video. It's long but it's educational.

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tejanaqkilica@reddit

I did, it was educational. It also was 40 minutes long for something that could've essentially be called "KERS".

Still don't understand what he meant by "Nobody understands hybrid cars".

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asad137@reddit

You missed the point of the video.

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tejanaqkilica@reddit

How's that? The point of the video was to show how Toyota's hybrid cars work and it was pretty much what I expected. Was there more to the video?

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asad137@reddit

The main points of the video were:

Hybrids allow the use of more efficient, less powerful engines that get augmented by electric motors when more power is needed to make them tolerable to drive (many people probably already know this)
Toyota's hybrid system is mechanically less complex than a traditional ICE drivetrain (this is the part that many people get wrong)
You need regen to avoid having to use the engine to charge the battery, which is inefficient due to power conversion losses (most people probably already know this also)

Hence the relatively small improvement on the highway compared like for like.

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waybeluga@reddit

Which non-hybrids use Atkinson engines, and are they as much of a turd to drive as it sounds like they should be? It sounds like it would be painfully slow to accelerate without the boost from the battery.

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huffalump1@reddit

Lots of engines can operate as "Atkinson" cycle, simply by holding the intake valve open slightly longer as the piston goes up during the compression stroke.

So you get a longer expansion/power stroke than compression.

Different variable valve timing can give different amounts of control over when this happens.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

Your Mazda does, that's what "Skyactiv" means in Mazda-ese.

It would only be as painful to accelerate if you sized it as small as what having regenerative braking allows you to get without a power penalty.

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waybeluga@reddit

I guess I have egg on my face then, thanks for the extra info :]

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

No worries. Bonus TIL is that the Mazda Millenia debuted that cycle but with a supercharged 2.3 V6 and called it what it really is, the Miller cycle.

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huffalump1@reddit

And even on otto cycle engines* the hybrid system still gives you more control over RPM range and engine load, seamless start/stop when idle, etc.

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davo747@reddit

You can request a sample kit from their website. While draining, stick the bottle under to fill it, it’s about 3oz. Pack per their instructions and included kit, pay ($35 iirc), then wait for the results.

They do a chemical analysis of the oil and can get an idea of the health of the engine and remaining oil life based on contaminants/metals in the oil, remaining additives, etc

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PracticalGolf324@reddit

Good call

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paulcthemantosee@reddit

My 18 Malibu Hybrid is awesome. Would prefer a regular automatic transmission over the cvt though. Dual motors, better battery tech than Toyota, more tech than Toyota, better sound system and layout than Toyota and Honda, and better seats than Toyota and Honda. Not as good on mpg than Toyota and Honda, but I need comfort and tech as I drive a great deal.

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BmoreDude92@reddit

I just got a hybrid. I am averaging 45.3 miles a gallon. It may be goofy for a 6’8” dude to be in a Camry. But it’s cheap and efficient

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pdp10@reddit

It may be goofy for a 6’8” dude to be in a Camry.

But there are exceptions. For instance, when you use the hybrid system to make a performance car a better performance car, but still leaving the driver with the experience of driving a fossil powered performance vehicle.

One could argue up and down about this topic, but reality is that for most people a BEV is (or will be given infrastructure catching up) a better compromise than a hybrid or pure ICE vehicle.

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absolute_imperial@reddit

You are so wrong it is infuriating to read.

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n0t_4_thr0w4w4y@reddit

there’s no escaping the fact that hybrids have twice the complexity….

Twice the complexity of a traditional ICE? No, no they do not. That’s like the entire point of the video is to show that.

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Srtviper@reddit

If this is your take away you must not have watched the video.

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funkanimus@reddit

Check consumer reports. Hybrid vehicles, by far, have the lowest scoring reliability. Prius excluded

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jg4242@reddit

1) Alec is specifically discussing the Toyota hybrid system here. Did you watch the video?

2) That’s not what Consumer Reports says at all

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absolute_imperial@reddit

lmfao. How can people like /u/funkanimus be so confident and so wrong at the same time?

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adamfps@reddit

Literally just makes shit up worse than an AI hallucinating

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5kyl3r@reddit

cliffnotes:

gas engines

not a ton of power required to maintain highway speed
any power beyond that is wasted (usually means smaller engine would be more efficient)
engine with just enough power to maintain highway speed will be painfully slow taking off from a stoplight or trying to pass other cars

electric motors

electric motors have TONS of torque, which is perfect for things like accelerating from a stoplight

most common hybrids

hybrid just pairs a smaller / weaker / more efficient gasoline engine with an electric motor
smaller engine means it'll be really efficient for highway/cruising use
the electric motor helps augment the smaller gas engine's power output to help with acceleration
when braking, power is generated and put back into the battery
when maintaining speed, excess power is put into charging the hybrid battery back up so it's ready to go the next time you need to pass someone or accelerate from a stop
for the most common hybrid cars, they usually do NOT have a way to charge the battery from the gas engine without the engine directly powering the wheels at the same time

plug in hybrid

same thing, but often with slightly bigger battery
can charge it by plugging it into a charger
battery is still smaller than a full plug in electric car
range on these is usually like ~20-50 miles, enough for short work commutes, drive to school, trip to post office or groceries, etc
after battery is empty, the gas engine kicks on and then it's like the common hybrid system i already explained

range extending hybrid setups

some cars like the chevy volt were able to use the engine as a generator to charge the battery, without the gas engine being connected to the powertrain
some of these, like the chevy volt, still had a clutch system that automatically operated to let the car connect that gas engine to the powertrain for things like highway cruising where using the gas engine is more efficient than losing energy at the generator, then losing energy in the charging circuit, then losing energy in the inverter that powers the electric motor

plug in electric

no gas engine
plug it in to charge it
when battery is empty, your car is a paperweight
charging is slow (~20+ minutes at best, if a charging station is available to use)

performance hybrid

mostly the same as the normal hybrids, but the goal is for performance, not efficiency
batteries are usually smaller for weight/performance reasons
power applied to the electric motor(s) for acceleration is a lot more aggressive
of the ones that do offer a full electric driving mode, the range is often really low, like 10 miles, for example
some use the stored power in the batteries to also power a hybrid electric turbocharger that helps them spool nearly instantly when you need to accelerate hard (mostly in Formula 1 racing at the moment and other forms of motorsport)

full electric has benefit of less maintenance costs, at the cost of long distance travel struggles. this is improving, but still doesn't beat a gas-engine-having-car you can just gas up in a few minutes. plug in hybrids are the best of both worlds. for most people they can do everything they need on full battery power. if they need to do a long holiday road trip, the gas engine works like a normal car so no stress about charging stations, just keep gassing it up and go like a normal gas car

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TheIronMonkey53@reddit

My hybrid Hemi Etorque is really fun to drive :)

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Firereign@reddit

Some hybrids do have all the complexity of both.

This may come as a surprise, but Toyota is not the only manufacturer that makes hybrids. Others are available, typically using a different drivetrain setup. (After all, Toyota wouldn’t particularly appreciate it if their eCVT was directly copied.)

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pdp10@reddit

There are Prius-style planetary ("eCVT") two-MG hybrids, and there are "mild hybrids" that effectively have the starter and alternator combined into one unit and a larger battery.

And then there's everything else, and not many of those. Mazda MX-30 R-EV, for one. BMW i3, another serial hybrid.

Those first two certainly aren't more complex, though they do have larger batteries than a 12V.

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MrBensonhurst@reddit

That’s not a correct description of a mild hybrid. Mild hybrids have a combined starter-alternator and a small (typically 48V) battery, which provides a tiny amount of assistance and regeneration.

There are also Full Hybrids with this same topology but a much more powerful motor and high-voltage battery, like Hyundai, Kia, and BMW hybrids. These are not considered mild hybrids.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

Ford replicated it, and Honda is using it as well. There are agreements in place probably.

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eneka@reddit

Honda's system is not the same as Toyota's eCVT. Honda's system is essentilly driven by an ev motor majority of the time and during high speed cruising it'll clutch the engine in for efficieny. If you floor it then, the engine gets unclutched and the electric motor takes over. This is why Honda's hybrids drive much better than Toyotas; but the toyota's ecvt have better high-speed efficiency.

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absolute_imperial@reddit

If you are interested in head to head power and fuel economy statistics for the major hybrid systems, this video is very good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S0QVKjAnCc

It shows that Toyota's system is a lot more efficient at low, medium, and high speeds, while Honda has the highest power output.

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MornwindShoma@reddit

true that.

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

Honda doesn't use a transmission at all in their setup, like Nissan.

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reductase@reddit

Nice of you to supply examples of increased complexity configurations.

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tpeandjelly727@reddit

To save on gas and most are able to have longer ranges. Especially the electric/gas models.

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DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit

They don't really fill a need for me.

I can charge at home
None of my regular trips are long enough to where a battered Leaf couldn't do it
If I am going longer distances, I'm probably doing something where I would want the Jeep anyway

The use case of efficiency and long range just isn't a factor for a second vehicle for me.

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tcat7@reddit

ICE and hybrid are high maintenance and higher cost to operate. EV is almost no maintenance and 50-80% less cost to operate if you own a home. I would never buy hybrid, EV all the way. If I made long trips often I'd have a second car that's gas. I see no point in adding more parts that could break in a hybrid, or paying the extra cost for one.

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absolute_imperial@reddit

It's not that simple. EV's cost higher insurance premiums, are higher cost to own, higher depreciation, require more frequent tire rotations and the tires themselves are more expensive with a lower lifetime due to the additional weight and torque of the battery, and only make financial sense if you can charge at home, which isn't an option for most renters. Hybrids are very low maintenance compared to ICE cars and carry lower insurance premiums than EVs, particularly Toyota hybrids.

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tcat7@reddit

My Bolt doesn't weigh anymore than most SUVs or trucks, tires aren't wearing any worse than my old ICE cars. It's only lost 10-15% in 3 years. I did say "if you own a home". My insurance is more, but probably because it was new, $1500 per year is high, but I'm in Texas. I'd never go back to anything with gas in it, even it was given to me.

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absolute_imperial@reddit

Not sure how your bolt only lost 10-15% of it's value when a 3 year old bolt bought new loses closer to 50%

https://recharged.com/articles/chevrolet-bolt-ev-value-after-3-years?srsltid=AfmBOooQq7rHkzRde0KLGSJp-mj9mJmDqpxXbR5CrZg1RRTHYg36PNCI

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tcat7@reddit

I paid $25k after incentive. Carvana keeps offering 221-$22.5k. $21.6 as of last week. I do have less that 10k miles.

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absolute_imperial@reddit

...You've driven under 10,000 miles in 3 years. That is so far from the typical usage of a car. That is almost 4-5x less than an average US driver. No wonder your tires are fine and your maintenance costs are so low, you have hardly used the car, lol. EV tires typically need replacement at ~25k miles compared to ~50k for ICE cars. If you paid $25k after the $7500 EV tax incentive, the car was $32.5k at sale. You can't include an incentive off your sale price when calculating depreciation. KBB puts a 2023 Bolt EUV with 10k miles in excellent condition at trade-in value of $17.7-$19.8k resale value. That is pretty close to 50% depreciation. That is assuming excellent condition, which is less than 2% of cars, it goes down a bit for very good condition. You said Texas so I put in just a standard Dallas zip code: link

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tcat7@reddit

Hardly matters, not selling it 🤣 Many Bolt owners are getting 40-50k miles on their OEM tires. Even if I drive "normal" miles, the only extra maintenance is 1 extra tire rotation. And even if it dropped 75%, it's the best car I've owned in 50 years (Maverick, RX7, Avalon, Accord, Tacoma, Baja).

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angrycanuck@reddit

He just praised the sienna and toyotas hybrid method and bashed other hybrids.

We already know PHEVs dont work - no one charges them - having the engine charge a battery is really the only way it can work, but then you have more mainteance and still need to buy gas (they are normally more expensive as well).

Atleast BEVs are cheaper after a year.

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ag2f@reddit

PHEVs do work, if the user doesn't charge they are just dumb and wasting money.

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angrycanuck@reddit

Which is a good chunk of them...

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1138255_study-phevs-aren-t-plugged-in-as-often-as-regulators-assume

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2025/10/22/study-concludes-plug-in-hybrid-cars-didnt-deliver-on-emissions--why/

https://www.cbc.ca/news/climate/plug-in-hybrids-pollution-explained-9.6987863

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ric2b@reddit

Oh, that study again. Turns out that if a company gives their employees plug-in hybrids and they don't have an easy way to charge at home and the company pays for fuel anyway, they'll just fill up and get the reimbursement from the company.

The study truly shocked everyone.

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HeavyCanuck@reddit

Even with a way to plug in at home, I'm not using my electricity to charge the bosses' car

And I'm someone who is desperate for a PHEV and will actually use it correctly.

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ag2f@reddit

But that's not a problem with the technology, as I said people are just dumb.

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ryzenguy111@reddit

Most users are dumb

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asad137@reddit

We already know PHEVs dont work - no one charges them

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tomsnrg@reddit

Went full electric AND got a wall box - fossil is over forever for my family. Best choice ever.

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sirhamalot1@reddit

i've always said hybrids are the future. you get (at least close to) the efficiency of an EV for around town driving, while having the range confidence of an ICE for any road trips or long hauls. it's the one car solution that most are looking for.

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NK16@reddit

Wouldn’t the future just be a longer range EV?

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absolute_imperial@reddit

No because the future (at least in america) doesn't have public infrastructure investment, and EV charging/power infrastructure will never be able to handle 90%+ adoption

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

You don't get close to EV efficiency at all, but you do get about 30% more than an ICE.

It's more complicated than an EV, but not more complicated than an ICE.

It's just a way to squeeze a touch more efficiency out.

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Lake18@reddit

Hybrids were the answer all along as a transition to evs if that’s ever gonna happen. Gradually making the battery portion bigger and ice engine smaller. But all the money was spent on evs.

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roger_enright@reddit

I thought the point was better gas mileage and lower cost, so if I don’t need to save money, I don’t need a hybrid.

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This is a great video, as are all of this guy's videos.

Even of you know or have a Hybrid and know how it works, it is totally worth watching this video.

Trust me, as a hybrid owner, I understand this well. Anyone who asks gets that eyes glazed over look when you try to explain it. Then come the follow-up questions. Then most people just decide it's actually an electric car annd you don't know what you're talkong about or you're lieing.

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LeopardHalit@reddit

If I ever buy a separate weekend car and daily, I’m going with a hybrid egg as the daily

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R_V_Z@reddit

Hybrids never bothered me. However, I did have a raised eyebrow when Volvo was doing the twin-charged hybrid cars. That just seemed needlessly complex.

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hellnoguru@reddit

This might confuse car guys. But V6 with dual fuel is a great balance between fun factor and mpg efficiency.

Been driving my Mitsubishi 380 for years now, still getting 13L/100km on LPG that is ranging from 1/2 to 1/3 the price of petrol

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My Golf GTE is so good, I’ve had two.

It’s like 80% of a Golf GTI, except on journeys less than 60 miles (nearly all of them) it can do 90mpg (uk)

It even makes the car quicker off the line, smoother to cruise around in and radar cruise works down to 0mph unlike non-electrified versions.

All that, and never an ounce of range anxiety because even with thr battery at 0%, it will still do around 45-50mpg (uk)

8 years old ab battery is at 91% health and has been since we bought this one. Will do around 22 miles EV only, plenty for quick runs.

It’s saved us a fortune and drives better than most cars I’ve owned. Even has 50/50 weight balance due to battery placement.

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YesIamaDinosaur@reddit

It’s easy to hate what you don’t understand.

I daily a 2023 330e - and the more people in my ecosystem that have gotten to drive around with me in it, the more have gone “oh” in terms of why a hybrid rocks.

Regularly charge and you can do 1100-1200 per 40L tank, or if you work within charge range and can charge at work (35 ish km one way), you can completely not use fuel at all.

Instant torque off the line, engine when you need it - what’s not to like?

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dr3@reddit

As usual with Technology Connections, I already knew all of this but watched the whole thing anyway.

I learn something new from almost all of his videos, even if it's something I consider myself an expert in. Really good YT channel if you're a dorky engineer like me.

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MotelSans17@reddit

I am definitely dorky

I didn't really learn anything per se, but the real world data was fascinating.

I'm a bit disappointed by the bit about diesel.

Diesel also profit from an eCVT. They could help to avoid situation with excessive particulate or NOx emissions. They also have an efficiency sweetspot. Their peak thermal efficiency is also still higher than that of Toyota's gasoline engine. Of course they also have their downsides.

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Unique_Persimmon9454@reddit

Agree

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beardedbast3rd@reddit

Yeah I love the “the worst of both worlds!”

Like, the complexity of ICE? It’s an engine, it might not even be hooked up to the drive train.

The weight of batteries and motors? Weight doesn’t affect mileage*

People’s absurd ability to run Olympic level mental gymnastics just to hate on something will never cease to amaze me.

A family member had an old volt and they filled up once a year when they actually left the city. The entire rest of the time its battery got them everywhere they needed to go, and they got the majority of their charging off standard 120v plugs at home and work.

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_eg0_@reddit

You didn't watch the video, did you?

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beardedbast3rd@reddit

… yes?

I’m just making a comment on very specifically the arguments hybrids are bad because they are “the worst of both worlds” and then an anecdote.

It’s not really a commentary on much to do anything with the video itself

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sri_peeta@reddit

all the complexity of a BEV, and all the complexity of an ICE car

Isn't argument reserved for PHEV's and not for hybrids? I think we are mixing up what's attributed to what.

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asault2@reddit

What's not to understand. My Maverick gets Prius-lite mpg, seats 5 and had a bed for stuff when i need

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Ancient_Persimmon@reddit

The point is to recapture some of the wasted energy from ICE via regenerative braking and re-deploy it to save fuel.

It's the last chapter of ICE, that's about it.

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chinmakes5@reddit

So here is my concept on this. Sure environmentally EVs would be better. But. In 2017 I was driving an SUV that was getting about 19 mpg as was my wife. Over the next year or two we went to a sedan and more efficient SUV She got around 30 MPG, I am getting 27. We just got her a hybrid she is getting about 40 mpg. I will also get one in the next year or two. So in 10 years we doubled our MPG. If everyone did that would we have a problem? I assume if we double our gas milage, we are cutting the pollution our cars make too.

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Baby-girl-54321@reddit

Hybrids make way more sense for normal people than full EVs right now honestly.

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olov244@reddit

the problem is, not all hybrids work the same way

savageotter@reddit

Worked as a service advisor for a bit. At the time hybrids definitely cost more to maintain and the computers were way quicker to throw some service light.

For BMWs the extra weight also brought air suspension too.

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