ELI5: Why do car guys dislike Crossovers?
Posted by LightningMcqueen2011@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 178 comments
And are there some crossovers that are genuinely good?
Posted by LightningMcqueen2011@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 178 comments
And are there some crossovers that are genuinely good?
Bobthehorse420@reddit
To my understanding they were invented as a way to bypass emissions law. It's not a car class I hate by any means, but knowing the reason that such a large majority of the North American market is so samey and frankly ugly/disconnected to drive is due to corporate loopholes is upsetting
cheddarsox@reddit
Not initially. They were for "adventurous" car people that thought they needed ground clearance for a gravel road they never drove. Its just a lifted car. This morphed into the current situation in the U.S. where the unibody "suv" market evolved from Cafe standards. There really isnt a great reason to have a car like that other than for looks and emissions, both of which got us where we are with people thinking a modern pathfinder is more capable offroad than an old panther body.
UmatterWHENiMATTER@reddit
Do you have a source for "not initially"?
Everything I've found says that's exactly why they exist.
Truck exception led to jeep lobbying to have jeeps treated the same and everyone else followed.
Bobthehorse420@reddit
This being said I've driven a crossover for many years, although it honestly feels more like a hatchback but a little bigger. It's never let me down but some variety would be nice
skudbeast@reddit
The overall concept is to be several things rolled into one. An SUV that is off-road/snow capable, sporty like a sports car, roomy like a minivan.
Like many things that are several things rolled into one they aren't particularly good at any of those things. A pocket knife is not as good as linemans pliers and a set of screwdrivers but it can work if you need it to.
So when you get to an object like a car that a person who is an enthusiast and wants something to be the best or very good at something... Like a great 4x4 (jeep, Tacoma, bronco) or be a very fast car (Corvette, m-series bmw), or be very utility focused like a diesel pickup... The crossover falls flat. It's boring and for people who don't care much about cars... or at least that's my take on the common perception.
surmatt@reddit
They get it for these reasons though 1) roomy enough for 3 or 4 people 2) 4 doors and easy to get a childseat into 3) comfortable height to get in and out of 4) relatively affordable compared to buy amd operate than a real SUV 5) a generous amount of room to put things in
Someone else had said they're cars for people who don't care about cars.
UmatterWHENiMATTER@reddit
1-4 are covered by almost any sedan.
5 is rarely needed for those who don't know they need a small truck.
Most-Description4665@reddit
A car for people who don't care about cars. Truer words were never spoken.
simola-@reddit
This basically sums up my experience, the cross over was never big enough or fast enough or economical enough vs a truck. Owning two vehicles has been better for me
daan944@reddit
Crossovers are the worst of both worlds:
They're just rugged looking MPVs for old people in denial.
Individual_Step2242@reddit
I’m an old people and I bought one kicking and screaming because nobody makes a fucking station wagon anymore and I need a wagon. Actually not true. VW, Toyota both make wagons but they don’t sell them in North America anymore.
What’s worse is that my old VW wagon (unreliable piece of junk) had a longer cargo floor than my RAV4.
Educational_Meet1885@reddit
Still have my VW Alltrack wagon.
Own-Secret-6523@reddit
Subarus essentially makes a station wagon, but they don't market it that way becasue station wagons don't sell in the USA.
s_nz@reddit
They make an actual station wagon. The WRX GT tS Wagon.
Own-Secret-6523@reddit
Not available in the USA. Manufacturers in general don't want to be associated with station wagons in the USA. it's a death sentence for sales of the vehicle. Even if it is a "station wagon" per se, they will market it as something different. The older Outback models sold in the USA were essentially station wagons, but never marketed that way. Now they actually look more like SUVs.
s_nz@reddit
Sounds like a USA problem.
Sadly discontinued some years back, But important to note that the Outback was a lifted version of the Subaru legacy wagon, that was marketed as an SUV.
https://oversteer.co.nz/road-test-subaru-legacy-gt-spec-b-premium-wagon/
Own-Secret-6523@reddit
Not a bad looking car, but station wagons don't sell in the USA when competing against SUVs. Manufacturers all know this statistic.
I think the 50's, 60's, and 70's ended up burning out the station wagon concept in the USA and then mini-vans and SUVs put the final nail in the coffin here.
Individual_Step2242@reddit
North America. We’re caught in the same crossover craze here in Canada. Partly because our market is too small to be separate from the USA but also fashion trend too. And it sucks.
MSampson1@reddit
All SUVs are basically AWD station wagons, we just call them SUVs so we can avoid the whole “family truckster” label.
Melinoe2016@reddit
I’m waiting for the outback to go back to a real station wagon and not this suv look
Ch4rlie_G@reddit
If it makes you feel any better the state of Michigan considers my Yukon XL a station wagon, so the Outback is downright small in comparison.
supern8ural@reddit
They're crazy now. Parked next to one the other day, it was bigger in every dimension than my old Jeep XJ, including height.
Own-Secret-6523@reddit
Very true, They kept slowly modifying it over the years to look more and more like an SUV. My mother-in-law years ago had the one that was essentially a Station Wagon. She liked it, but she also had a "real" 'Woodie' station wagon whilst raising her kids.
She still has a Subaru she bought new a few years back, First new car she ever had. The dealership is very good to her for service, treats her like their Grandma.
Organic-End-9767@reddit
You can thank the soccer moms that like those vehicles because "I like the feeling that I'm high up". That's what I always heard from buyers when I worked in the car industry. I miss wagons. They're sort of making a comeback with Audi, Mercedes and BMW making some cool ones.
Individual_Step2242@reddit
The only thing I like about them is that they’re easier to get in and out of. Everything else sucks. Handle worse, worse gas mileage, bigger footprint to do the same job, etc. I also have a Corolla sedan (manual!) and in Europe Toyota sells a really cool hybrid wagon. I’d have bought that in a heartbeat instead of a RAV4 if it was available here.
GlitteringPen3949@reddit
I have always hated SUVs because they don’t do anything well and get worse MPGs. We lost out 06’ Minivan last year to a wreck. So we looked at another Sienna but did not like how it drove and did not need that big of a car any more. Someone mentioned the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid. We have an Accord Hybrid which has turned out to be the most trouble free car I have ever owned. 12 plus years of care free driving with 50 mpg. So we drove the Mazda and loved the way Mazda tuned the suspension. It has no right to drive this well. And it’s rated 38 mpg. It’s been getting about that for the whole tank(of 87 Oct btw) the power is quite good and the low rpm torque makes it nice around town. And no slouch on the hwy. To top it all off the styling is good and love the interior too. Finally the whole hybrid drivetrain is lifted out of the RAV4 so it’s going to be reliable. Some how Mazda checked off all the boxes of the things I needed to get into a SUV. I still don’t know how the did it!?
HedonisticFrog@reddit
Modern SUVs have become so large they added steps to be able to get up to the seat now. Ease of entry isn't even a draw for them.
Shroomboy79@reddit
The whole “I’m higher up so I can see better” point isn’t even valid anymore cuz now everyone has a taller vehicle and you can’t see shit anyways
7eregrine@reddit
My friend says the same thing. And then after buying one realized it didn't help .. because everyone else did the same thing.
BEEZ128@reddit
BMW, Mercedes and Audi are still making station wagons
Individual_Step2242@reddit
Not affordable for me.
BEEZ128@reddit
You can buy some nice ones in really good used condition, like the other person responding to you did. Certain models have bulletproof reliability and run forever providing you service them on time.
HedonisticFrog@reddit
My 1998 Mercedes E320 wagon was $1400, runs and drives with working heat and AC.
HedonisticFrog@reddit
My father had me build a custom wood kennel to transport his dog in the back of his MDX because the large plastic one wouldn't fit. It fit just fine in my 1998 Mercedes E320 wagon, that weighs 1000lb less and gets better fuel economy while being 20 years older.
You can still snag E320 wagons in good condition for cheap, and they're pretty reliable overall. I know I'm biased since I love Mercedes though.
supern8ural@reddit
BMW makes wagons too but they don't market them in the US. I'm not sure if they technically sell them or not but I haven't seen one in years. I do remember getting a Diesel wagon as a loaner years ago and it was tempting, I didn't like the automatic, and it obviously didn't have as much power as my 335i, but it was actually pretty pleasant.
I remember a coworker had a WRX wagon years ago, don't know why they decided to drop that.
Billz3bub666@reddit
I spent my entire UK trip fawning over shitbox wagons that aren't available in the states.
Individual_Step2242@reddit
I did that on my last UK trip as well. We’re going back this summer and I’ll be doing the same thing again!
Billz3bub666@reddit
Peugot 508 in that teal color is my Fave, but I saw a nice Ford Fusion styled estate and BMW wagons as well.
SkeletorsAlt@reddit
Yeah, we went through this in 2021. The only “wagon” remotely in our price range was the Outback. The good ones were all euro makes and were way, way more than we could afford.
ducationalfall@reddit
Toyota Bz Woodland EV is a wagon in disguise.
red18wrx@reddit
Sad truth is crossovers are more purpose built for day-to-day life in the US than sedans or suvs. Better ground clearance than sedans for driving on the bad, pothole filled roads, the speed bumps, the steep driveways. There's more room for things than a sedan, while it's smaller and more manageable to drive than a suv. I hate them and think they're ruining the car market, but I understand why they're out-performing the alternatives.
H0SS_AGAINST@reddit
They used to be legit.
Suzuki Side Kick, first couple generations of the CR-V. I rented a Dihatsu Terios in Costa Rica and just about fell in love. FWIW Manual AWD CR-Vs in decent condition go for ridiculous cash.
But then they got more bloated and numb, basically American cars did what Americans do. But even the latest generation Terios looks like a shot of novocaine.
Doyoulike4@reddit
To be fair the sidekick/geo tracker was actually just a small SUV, a lot of the underpinnings were truck based. CR-V though 100% was one of the OG crossovers and I have a soft spot for Gen 1 CR-Vs.
withsexyresults@reddit
Or people with kids. They’re the ideal form factor for loading kids into car seats
Hutwe@reddit
A minivan is the ideal for this though. Far more convenient, utilitarian, and better ride than a crossover
withsexyresults@reddit
But minivans are also huge compared to a lot of cross overs. If you only have one kid you don’t need a minivan
BFCE@reddit
If you only have one kid you don't need an SUV either. A Civic works fine for just one kid.
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
Thinking back to when me and my cousins were in car car seats and a little after in the 80s and 90s and all our parents had coupes or 3 doors except for my one aunt that had a Saturn wagon. Parents these days just have soft hands.
withsexyresults@reddit
Sure there’s needs and wants. Have both a civic and suv but it’s much easier using the suv. Has features like rear vents to keep them cool and much easier to get them in their car seats
H0SS_AGAINST@reddit
Two kids in my turbo hatchback works great. Dog fits in the back too.
You don't need ride height and big wheels. The real irony is they have a higher ride height but barely any extra ground clearance.
withsexyresults@reddit
Use my hot hatch to shuttle kid around too but it’s much easier to do it in my cuv especially sticking into car seat. You don’t gotta bend down nearly as much
Lower_Put4270@reddit
Are they really worse handling than a wagon? I mean, a sporty crossover SUV is going to be better to drive than a regular wagon. And something new like a Cupra Formentor VZx is going to laugh at any 10-20 year old wagon, which younger car guys seem to fizz over for some reason.
daan944@reddit
That's comparing apples to oranges (sporty vs regular). A wagon will outperform a crossover SUV due to lower center of gravity and lower frontal area (aerodynamic drag). When they're the same length, the wagon will probably be a bit lighter. Give them both a similar upgrade, e.g. sports suspension or strong engine, not just one of them.
Again, apples and oranges, something very new vs 10-20 years old! That 5 cyl engine with 385 hp sounds great, but isn't that same engine available in an Audi A3/VW Golf or similar? Then compare them again.
My 19 year old wagon has a V8 and 367hp RWD, I think I'll pick that over the Formentor VZx.
---
Don't get me wrong, there are nice crossovers (I was exaggerating a bit in my previous comment) like this Formentor/Tiguan. But they will lose out to their 'normal' car counterpart in terms of performance except for higher seats for easier entry. They're not more practical either, often similar to the similarly sized hatchback (e.g. Tiguan vs Golf) as you rarely need (or are even able to make sure of) the extra height the crossover offers.
Lower_Put4270@reddit
It’s marginal though, isn’t? Especially with modern suspension design. I’d wager that most drivers on the street wouldn’t be able to tell a handling difference between a modern SUV that’s set up for handling vs an equivalent wagon. There’s no way someone using a Lexus LBX Morizo RR every day is likely be able to tell a dynamic difference between their car and a GR Corolla, for instance. So is the hatred completely overblown? Of course it is.
I make the new vs old comparison because that’s the comparison a lot of “car guys” make. How many times have you heard someone with a 20 year old POS talk about how shit crossovers handle, or the old “I’ll take my *insert old euro wagon here* over that thing any day”. I do it to illustrate the point that the hatred is irrational and not based on fact.
As I said in my comment below, car guys are often deeply, deeply conservative. They hate change. Crossovers are a change.
daan944@reddit
True, but the question was "Why do car guys dislike Crossovers?". A lot of car guys favor performance and character. A crossover is often lacking in both.
I don't agree on this one. Car fans come in all sizes and shapes. Some are conservative, sure. But some love new tech (e.g. EVs/hybrids). Some love the classics. Some love the oddballs (Fiat Multipla, Renault Avantime). Some like to go fast, some like to cruise around, some love to show off, some love to wrench and some love to tune. Even eco hypermilers could be seen as "car guys", trying to use every drop of fuel as efficient as possible.
I can only fully speak for myself, but I dislike crossovers because (most) are make believe: pretending to be cool, but are a boring FWD MPV/hatchback in a somewhat rugged disguise. And I dislike them because they're pushing other models out of the market, because most non-car people like bland cars and a comfortable entry (old ppl).
HedonisticFrog@reddit
Even with modern suspensions, for an SUV to have good handling it has to be a lot stiffer to handle the extra weight, and counter act the body roll from being so tall. A wagon can have a softer much better riding suspension while still handling well.
beipphine@reddit
I drive a 30 year old Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon with the Grand Touring Suspension (Yes, that is what the badge on the dash board tells me), sharp, precise, or nimble would not be the words that I use to describe its handling characteristics. The dynamic difference is that the wagon floats over the road and wallows in the turns.
That being said, I'll take my America-wagon over that thing any day.
Snurgisdr@reddit
Also, the taller vehicle is always more of a pain in crosswinds.
HedonisticFrog@reddit
Can confirm. Driving an ambulance on a windy day means you have to drive at an angle to go straight. It's a weird unsettling experience.
HedonisticFrog@reddit
A crossover with a stiff suspension still handles like shit and rides worse than a wagon. It's one of the worst driving experiences I've had when I had one as a loaner.
Skipper07B@reddit
Yes they do handle worse than wagons.
Lower_Put4270@reddit
Because that’s the comparison car guys always make.
I own a Crown, for instance, so I know Crown people. The number of people with piece of shit JZS171 wagons who hang shit on new Crown Sports or Crown Crossovers because “they handle like crap” is hilarious.
Jops817@reddit
Higher center of gravity alone loses points for the crossover (and I own one I can talk shit).
lunchskate@reddit
Don’t forget the herpes
J-Rag-@reddit
Also has the best of both worlds. Has more room than a wagon to lug shit around and gets way better MPG than a truck. It doesn't gotta have a big broom vroom loud engine to be super practical. Reality is it's more practical than people who buy a big truck or suv for daily driving.
daan944@reddit
Room for luggage? Not really. Full size SUVs are bigger than most wagons, but crossovers aren't. E.g. VW Tiguan and VW Golf (Rabbit) are of similar size, the Tiguan is a mere 30cm longer, yet 10cm shorter than the VW Golf Variant (wagon version). These are exterior sizes, so just a rough indication. They do have more interior height, but that's harder to use efficiently in most situations (e.g. you don't want to stack your groceries very high). But depending on your needs, the height could very well be a deciding factor, that I must admit.
That's true. They're (for most drivers) better suited to their needs than a full size SUV or truck. But the same can be said for hatchbacks and wagons, so that's not a win for the crossover per se.
J-Rag-@reddit
You can definitely fit luggage in a crossover. Maybe not a full family of 4 going overseas for a month on vacation, but 2 parents and a kid or two traveling 10 hours to visit family for a week yeah you can absolutely put all that in a crossover if you load it right. And if you're stacking groceries that high you're either buying too much or you dont know how to load groceries.. Yeah like you mentioned, the crossover and wagon is roughly the same length and that goes for most brands that still actually make an actual wagon and not just a small hatch. So really the cargo space is pretty much the same, just a little more height in the crossover which is good for like stacking luggage or just being able to have that extra wiggle room just in case. That's about the only difference between a good wagon and a crossover really. Otherwise they're pretty much the same with the exception of the crossover probably being more likely to have AWD/4WD capabilities.
Instant-Bacon@reddit
But what if I am old and in denial? Sounds like a great deal to me
beipphine@reddit
I suggest you stop standing in de nile and buy a minivan. It's a better MPV.
joegekko@reddit
Minivans are the best. I hope I never don't have a minivan again.
BJoe1976@reddit
My Dad is on his second minivan now, first was bought so Mom could get in and out of it more easily that his XJ Cherokee (he used it for work before retiring, spent lots of time off road) and prior to that they had 2 full sized window vans. I would consider either type of van over a crossover or a modern pickup any day.
castlenutjob@reddit
Minivan withe some beefed up rear suspension is the real king of the road.
Own-Secret-6523@reddit
I'm old .... old people in denial buy trucks or "corvette" type vehicles, not crossovers. I own a truck by the way .....
bandit1206@reddit
I would argue you’re wrong. Old people who buy corvettes, trucks, etc do so because they can. No kids to haul around, lighter shopping runs (because no kids) they finally don’t have to be practical.
Personally I’m avoiding that future by not being practical now.
daan944@reddit
Not in Europe 😉
lionbacker54@reddit
This is the answer
TomatoKind9189@reddit
Small - regular sized crossovers I do dislike as a full sized car is the same size or bigger. Drives better and gets better fuel economy. Biggest thing that class size has is the trunk opening size and people like getting in and out of a taller vehicle.
I'm okay with the largest crossovers as they at least are way better than cars size wise. Are big enough. The biggest negative with them is mini vans do exist and almost do everything better.
The truth is though they all do something slightly better than the rest so they can and do do exist. It does feel like people just gravitate towards the same small crossovers though and car people like fun options.
SolarWind77@reddit
Very few practical positives and a ton of drawbacks IMO.
AnotherDrone001@reddit
It’s just rolling compromises. Jack of all trades and master of none.
Independent-Coat6272@reddit
trying to be 2 things at once (coupe/sedan and 4x4/suv) and just ending up ugly
GlitteringPen3949@reddit
Because crossovers are not cars.
Monster51915@reddit
There’s many good ones out there and they make sense perfectly. It’s the mixture between an SUV and a car. People want handling and mpg of a car with some capability and the storage of an SUV. The car is too small and the SUV is mostly too expensive.
I have a Subaru Crosstrek and my mom a Subaru Outback and they are great vehicles. Actually off-road capable and while not the best mpg they are what we love. My parents both own Jeep wranglers and my mom after 27 years needed a new vehicle. Thus a wagon with off-road capability is the best fit. I got a Crosstrek, over all the competition I loved the looks the most and the fact that I can actually off-road and do really well compared to most vehicles.
Many crossovers aren’t super cool but some have good ones. I think Honda, Subaru, Ford, and some of the Toyotas are good crossovers along with possibly Mazda. I don’t really like the ones from Chevy though as it took cool off-road capable vehicles and made them all road only look a-likes.
overmonk@reddit
They are soulless go-boxes.
Frustrated_Zucchini@reddit
Because crossovers are just hatchbacks which have been raised to make them taller.
They're not bigger inside, they have worse economy, and their handling characteristics are much worse than the equivalent hatchback they were based on.
No. There aren't any good ones.
d0ugfirtree@reddit
Counterpoint, I used to have a Infiniti EX35 and that thing was amazing. Comfortable, practical, handled decent enough, had the 350z motor, reliable. Really a fantastic car other than absolutely guzzling fuel
Doyoulike4@reddit
Some of the older gen crossovers I'll genuinely defend as being decent or better, those Infiniti crossovers were one of them, also the first couple generations of Highlander were great, the first couple CR-Vs were great too. But generally speaking in most situations I'd rather just have a station wagon/hatchback rather than lifting it and making it a crossover.
WelcomeToDankonia@reddit
I love my crosstrek and wouldn’t trade or for a sedan or full-sized suv.
Apart-Disaster-3085@reddit
I have a Prius at home. I just got back from a trip where the rental gave me some buick crossover and the interior room was much smaller. We could only fit the luggage a certain way with the back seats down and the top of my hair was touching the roof. When we got back, we could just slide the luggage in the prius with over 2 feet of space in the back still and room above. The crossover had shittier handling, less space, and worse mpg.
KernelPanic-42@reddit
Because they’re not crossovers. They’re cars that were made to appeal specifically to people who don’t know the difference between a car and an SUV.
NeelSahay0@reddit
Less practical than a minivan, less capable than a real truck/SUV, worse handling and less efficient than a sedan, more expensive than a hatchback, and they still exhibit all the danger to pedestrians as other cars that size.
xXxDickBonerz69xXx@reddit
Because there's nothing interesting, fun, or exciting about them.
They are made for people who see cars and driving as a chore or inconvenience. They do everything okay but nothing well.
They also also make the roads a worse place. They are classed as light trucks and thus have more lax emissions and safety standards. They don't have to meet passenger car bumper requirements so they will override passenger cars causing more damage and injury. They are more deadly to pedestrians as they push them down and under the vehicle instead of throwing them up and over. They make it harder for passenger cars to see in traffic and blind them with their headlights.
The advantage most owners actually use is more cargo space, which is met by station wagons and hatchbacks. And those vehicle types have none of the drawbacks for everyone else I mentioned. In addition they are cheaper, get better gas mileage, are lighter, and drive better. Their performance variants can actually be fun and split the difference between practical daily driver and fun car. But because of consumer preference, and manufacturers making a larger profit and needing to hit easier emissions targets crossovers have all but killed off hatches, and wagons.
They're just car slop.
wavywil@reddit
I’m in a Kia carnival for a temp work truck until one comes in. Unless u need to tow or have heavy payloads, the Kia works well as a work vehicle. Fold the seats down in the rear and u have plenty of room. Drives well. Lots of tech. And the hybrid gets respectable fuel economy.
Also drove same vehicle from Boston to Orlando 4 adults and a toddler with all of our luggage and we were quite comfortable in the 24 hour drive.
Not a minivan person but the Kia is styled well and the tech makes it a breeze to drive. Especially on the highway. I can enjoy a nice breakfast while on the highway with minimal inputs
DJScaryTerry@reddit
They're ugly, and handle poorly, and are slow, and are generally kinda expensive for what you get, and they're bad on gas due to the extra weight.
It's basically taking all the bad things about an SUV and combining it with the drivetrain for a car that is over 1000lbs lighter.
Just a recipe for garbage.
Vellusta@reddit
What about the Macan?
DJScaryTerry@reddit
I hate that thing too but I hate basically anything taller than a wagon.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
The Macan might be the best exception, but wow it's stupid expensive to own for what it is.
9BALL22@reddit
I only dislike that they're so popular that fewer cars are being built. I've always liked wagons but have to admit that a Ford Flex, Toyota Highlander for example, do almost everything better than the station wagons I've driven/owned. Better mileage, power, handling, visibility and the ground clearance/traction to traverse rougher terrain.
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
Plenty of good ones out there. But in general, car guys view them as killing off a lot of sedans and wagons. And with those went a lot of fun cars. When in reality, buyers didn't buy those sedans and wagons when they were on sale as the years went on.
FrozenUruguayBallbac@reddit
Crossovers arent even responible for the death of wagons, Minivans are
EnlargedChonk@reddit
I feel like a lot of it is younger car guys that just weren't old enough to buy when the sedans and wagons they want now were available and since they didn't sell well with the *previous* generation they are stuck in a world where there is no market for them. Makers optimized their profits for that existing car market and whenever someone who isn't part of that aging market complains they get told "you didn't buy them when you were 10 years old so we stopped making them"
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
True, I just don't like the cope from the community when it comes to wagon sales. Manufacturer after manufacturer gets burned by selling them here (aside from high end luxury ones generally) and there's always an excuse as to why a certain one failed
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Name two.
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
Sure, Macan and all the EGMP SUVs from Hyundai and Kia. And I'm sorry but no. Base Magnums were cheaper than Durangos and Chargers were. And yet both somehow survived the financial crisis. Jaguar barely cracked 200 XF wagons in the US across three years of being on sale, and yet somehow the F Pace sold just under 40000 units in those same three years. The Regal TourX didn't crack 10000 units over three years but somehow the Enclave with a base price $10K higher than the TourX sold over 100000 units. But sure it's CAFE
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Macan maybe, but EVs don't count. Totally different thing.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Durango yes, Charger no. Price order in 2008 was Charger < Magnum < Durango.
CAFE tweaked the value proposition, while the Magnum was cheaper, the small difference between it and the Durango made the Durango the better deal for many.
Well that and most women like sitting higher.
darkearwig@reddit
Automakers killed off wagons because they ate into sales of vans. Same reason Ford doesn't make a minivan (and when they did it was a 6 seater), because it hurts SUV sales. Automakers don't care about being a "full-line" they want to sell the most expensive vehicles possible and care little about long-term loyalty
Rough_Cancel7265@reddit
Or hear me out, wagons don't sell well. Time and time again when a wagon is for sale in a lineup where a comparable SUV is, the numbers aren't even close
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
Because CAFE made SUV a better value.
ChemistRemote7182@reddit
Typically it's a FWD based worse minivan or far hatchback. They can be comfortable potentially, so can everything else.
Professor_Iron@reddit
There are very decent crossovers out there. But most of the early crossovers were really junk. Cars like the 1st generation Honda HR-V, Ford EcoSport or the 1st/2nd gen Toyota RAV4 are absolute rubbish. Recently manufacturers got their act together by making crossovers like the Ford Puma, Peugeot 3008 or the Mini Countryman. But I don't think crossovers in general deserve the hate.
Netghod@reddit
Because it’s pretending to be one thing while being based on another and does neither of them well.
Shroomboy79@reddit
Cuz their just tall sedans that handle like shit and get worse gas mileage because “your safer in a bigger vehicle” there’s nothing good about them
10handicap@reddit
Polarizing looks and interior but I happen to like both aspects of the 2026 X3 M50 I'll be taking delivery on in a couple weeks. I think the interior and comfort will be a pretty big upgrade from my '21 M340i, but obviously I'm giving up one of the better looking Sedans ever made.
The X3 was incredibly fun to drive both times I tested it out, and I can't wait to start driving it. I don't care how many times my buddy who owns a Viper and a 1300 HP (for now) drag car tells me I'm driving a minivan.
Recent_Permit2653@reddit
There are just so many compromises that go into making a crossover.
They end up not really being able to do actual SUV things, and due to the form factor aren’t as good at car traits like handling or getting good MPG.
They sit in this weird nether world of trying to be all things to all people, and end up just not being good enough at anything to have any personality or any real notable or desirable traits.
I’m not sure if this is a general car guy thing or if it’s just me, I also feel less secure when sitting up higher. I don’t feel like I have the control I do in a car. I feel like I have to be more cautious.
Wonderful_Setting_29@reddit
They are a compromise of everything in an effort to try to appeal to everyone and be practical. Idc about practicality. They're bigger and handle worse than a sedan or station wagon, they dont actually do anything well off road and they dont even offer the practicality of a sliding door offered in a van. Theyre basically a worse version of a mini van.
If I want to do anything off road ill buy a jeep. If I want to go fast or turn ill buy a sports car (or a pony car if I want to compromise somewhat). If I need to haul shit ill get a truck. If I have 6 kids ill get a van. A crossover tries to do all of the things and does none of them well.
SecondVariety@reddit
loved them since I saw the AMC Eagle SX/4..... but unfortunately wagons/shooting brake/hatchbacks - just don't seem to sell well in the US market. It's a shame really.
jstar77@reddit
Lots of people like crossovers. They target the hatchback, sedan, and SUV demographics outside of trucks they are the largest selling category of vehicles in the US. They fit a lot of people's life styles very well. Small enough to navigate in tighter spaces, AWD with more ground clearance than a hatch or sedan, more utility than a hatch or sedan. I suspect in some time we'll see more manufacturers dropping their 4 door sedans than already have.
revocer@reddit
Car guys usually want performance and good looks.
Crossovers don’t necessarily match that.
RealFlatworm-@reddit
I've had 3 CRVs and loved them. People might hate them because they're slow, boring and practical.
schmiddc@reddit
Crossovers are minivans with doors for people who dont want to admit they own a minivan..
I own a minivan, it's a damn fine vehicle for what I use it for
Jjmills101@reddit
You made a hatchback and then made it handle worse, uglier, more expensive, and worse mpg.
DarthSwash@reddit
Crossovers are largely fine for most people. For actual enthusiasts tho, they offer all of the size and none of the capability of a proper body on frame, 4x4 SUV. They are basically just the modern equivalent of a station wagon, without any of the charm of an actual station wagon.
TacitRonin20@reddit
As a wagon lover, there's no reason for them to exist. Wagons do crossover things better than crossovers. If you want more, a full sized SUV will do that. The crossover is basically a big hatchback with all of the downsides of an SUV and none of the benefits.
PawPawsLilStinker@reddit
They're just station wagons, what's the problem? What 1 more inch of clearance ruins it for you?
No_Topic5591@reddit
They're not though - crosovers have none of the practicality of a station wagon, and are really just small hatchbacks - and it's more like 3-4 inches of extra height.
eg. The T-Roc is about 9cm taller than the Golf. The really ridiculous part is that you can buy a T-Roc in a sportier trim, with lowered suspension, at which point you are just buying a Golf!
PawPawsLilStinker@reddit
You're telling me a Subaru cross trek has none of the advantages of a Subaru outback? None at all? It's just a small wagon which, I'm horribly sorry to tell you, isn't different from a big hatch back. None of these things are that different.
No_Topic5591@reddit
Subaru are an outlier - they were already making stuff like the Forester and Legacy Outback, which were the original crossovers (but with actual 4WD credentials) long before crossovers were even a thing (later followed by the Volvo XC70 and Skoda Yeti).
The vast majority of crossovers are front-wheel drive only, and have about the same amount of interior space as the hatchback from which they are derived (certainly nowhere near as much as the station wagon versions, and the loadspace is usually just taller, rather than longer, which would be far more useful).
wsxdfcvgbnjmlkjafals@reddit
Women are a major part of the crossover market, for the safety aspects
I prefer a fun ride and i suspect that whatever it is, horomones? that make men more risk-seeking, we tend to gravitate toward something not so big and tall
l3l4ck0ut@reddit
I don't dislike ALL Crossovers. but I DO dislike all minivans. They are ugly, I hate the sliding doors, and most guys want a "cool" factor to whatever they drive. While guys disagree on exactly what "cool" factors are actually cool, we all pretty much agree that minivans are NOT IT. Except for that guy that put a Hellcat engine in a Grand Caravan. Or that guy who put a jet engine in one.
I do like the Acadia, I've owned an Acadia Denali we drove off the lot. It was one of my favorite vehicles we had. I've also had a Terrain which I liked, but it was plain jane and too small for us. We also had an Enclave, which I was somewhat indifferent to - but I lovingly called it "the egg" because it was shaped like one.
TheEstablishment7@reddit
It's funny, I feel like if I'm going to roll toward middle-aged dad car, I might as well roll into it hard, get a minivan, and hope I get a cool factor for owning and flaunting my middle aged dad status.
RoamingRiot@reddit
I'd take a van over a CUV any day. Thankfully a compact hatchback or sedan is the most car I'll ever need.
glasswings363@reddit
Sliding doors and folding seats are unfathomably cool.
gokartninja@reddit
Minivans at least have a role and fill it well. Crossovers are just minivans for people in denial
l3l4ck0ut@reddit
That's true. But I also think that's why car guys don't care for minivans much - or many crossovers. They are utilitarian, they are used as tools to fulfill a need. They are both basically for people that see cars as nothing more than a hunk of metal, glass and wire that gets them where they need to go. Us car guys don't see cars as only a means of transportation, we see them as an expression of ourselves - and that's the issue. Minivans and crossovers are just...dull. They're just purpose built appliances with little to no soul to them.
Billz3bub666@reddit
because they are pieces of shit. They are the Applebee's of cars - I do all things poorly so that I cannot do one thing well.
whateveritisthey@reddit
They try to do everything, and they do everything poorly.
nopester24@reddit
There's nothing fun about them.
VegaGT-VZ@reddit
If there's one thing enthusiasts are gonna do, it's yell and argue about why everyone who didn't see things their way is wrong. It's not enough to love cars; you have to dunk on cars you don't like and the people who buy them.
mandatoryclutchpedal@reddit
Car guys are fine with crossovers. They are fine with hybrids and EVs. They love minivans. They love all cars.
Dont confuse car guys with people who call themselves car guys because they like to latch on to "cool cars".
Crossovers are tall wagons with extra ride height and they have their purpose.
BEEZ128@reddit
Because they are basically 3 different chassis styles mashed together. They just don’t make sense, and don’t do anything well. They are a Jack of all trades, master of none. Oh, and they look fugly.
adultdaycare81@reddit
They’re the worst of everything and they ruined station wagons
UnderwhelmingAF@reddit
Minivans replaced station wagons, and SUVs replaced minivans.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
Car guys hate every car that isnt their own lol...and sometimes that one too
serpentman@reddit
Body roll.
crookedledder@reddit
Mainly because they're ugly and common as dirt.
Thing is, they're very practical vehicles. I've got a first gen Toyota Venza. It's basically an AWD Avalon wagon. Yeah, it's ugly... but it's comfortable, reliable, fast, great in the snow, and has lots of cargo room.
I've just resigned myself to the fact that this is what cars look like these days.
I think car guys will adapt in time. Or not... doesn't matter to me.
Melinoe2016@reddit
The way people are saying they don’t have as much space you’d think mini vans are the most popular vehicle out there. They seriously offer crazy amount of space compared to crossovers and even SUVs
EnthusiasmTop8815@reddit
Obviously people do like crossovers, since they are the best selling category. In general they offer better comfort, space, and visibility than an equivalent sedan, while having similar performance, cost, and efficiency.
FearlessTomatillo911@reddit
There are some underrated performance crossovers, Kona N is slept on hard by the online car community
Sad-Celebration-7542@reddit
Because they’re sensible and popular. Can’t have that!
Own-Secret-6523@reddit
In the US, it's because they look like "station wagons".
Blu_yello_husky@reddit
I cant speak for everyone but I dont like them because they dont handle like sedans and have no style whatsoever. Itd be fine if 1 or 2 companies offered them, but 90% of nee cars sold being crossovers is too much. You hardly ever seen sedans anymore.
Truthfully im indifferent to them since I would never ever consider owning one so I dont think about what I do or dont like about them.
YeahIGotNuthin@reddit
Car enthusiasts sometimes dislike car-based SUV crossovers because the crossovers are taller and larger than the cars they’re based on, making them worse at car things like “handling” and “fuel economy” and “performance” which car enthusiasts find important.
in exchange, the crossovers give more interior room and “I’m up higher so I can see” ride height, along with minimal off road / rough road improvements, which a lot of car enthusiasts find pointless.
Thanks to better tires and hybrid technology and continuous engineering improvements, today’s crossovers are better at car stuff than even good cars were 15 or 10 years ago, so a lot of us have maybe made our peace with them. But today’s cars are WAY better at car stuff than ever for all those reasons, so a some of us still resent their ubiquity.
” You have TWO KIDS, and your spouse does 90% of their carpool driving anyway, WHY DO YOU WANT A HONDA PILOT instead of an accord or even a civic? The cars are SO MUCH BETTER FOR YOUR DRIVING, you could be having fun and getting 50 mpg, but instead you’re gonna spend $20,000 more and hate driving it in traffic and complain about the cost of filling it up at 19 mpg.”
SkylineFTW97@reddit
I'm someone who loves both small cars and trucks. I own a Honda Fit, Mazda Miata, and Ford F-150.
The Honda Fit is my daily. Small, relatively lightweight for a modern car (2500 lbs), nimble, handles very well, and is quite fun to drive all while not giving up any practicality.
The Mazda Miata is self explanatory. Light, nimble, and fun. I do amateur racing events in both the Miata and the Fit, so I value agility very highly.
The Ford F-150 I just bought to replace my old Honda Passport (one of the old rebadged Isuzu Rodeos, not the current ones). I tow, haul, and go offroad with my trucks. And I replaced my SUV with a pickup because I wanted a bed. And mine isn't some pavement princess, it's a single cab long bed truck where the only options are power windows/locks/mirrors and 4WD.
So given my tastes and use case, crossovers represent the worst of both worlds for me. They're not small, light, or low enough to be as nimble as I'd like, nor are they as good on gas (I also do a lot of driving and rack up miles fairly quickly). Nor are they capable enough as utility vehicles to offset their relative lack of performance/MPG like pickups and proper SUVs are
New_Mountain1672@reddit
pairing the worst aspects of all vehicle types and making sure it’s good at nothing. that is a crossover.
QuickSandwhich@reddit
There is no pleasing “car guys” because they are not a monolith, and all get hung up on very specific parts of the driving experience.
That being said, Car guys are looking for specific experiences, and crossovers are cars designed to be ok at most things but excellent at none. They excel for people who want to own one car that can be more utilitarian. That is the antithesis of the average car guy, even if there are some crossovers that some car guys may find soft spots for.
orcsquid@reddit
I like crossovers /shrug I like not ducking down to get into my vehicle.
7eregrine@reddit
Come drive my sedan. Then you'll understand.
glasswings363@reddit
Ioniq 5 is pretty good, almost as good as the 6. Probably because they are very minor variants of the same platform so it's like "do you want better aero and shorter wheelbase or back seats that are more accessible?"
And "like a sedan but longer seating and a hatch " is the closest thing we've seen to a station wagon in a while. That's pretty dope.
Battery-electric powertrain gets the CoG nice and low, better handling than a CUV should have. It's not gonna roll over and will probably be allowed on track. Cool because there are track-toy variants of both body styles.
Arguably it's too good to be a crossover, it's a wagon for markets that are prejudiced against wagons.
sv3nian@reddit
Out of all the "compact crossovers" out there, I think the best one is probably the Subaru crosstrek. It's basically a lifted Impreza hatch with more body roll, but it gets decent gas mileage for always on AWD and the sport trim has like 180ish hp (still not fast, I know). They are boring cars though.
I drive a Mazda 3 hatchback and it's way more fun than my wife's crosstrek. Also around 185hp but lighter weight and has a proper auto transmission instead of the CVT. Then again, I wouldn't consider myself a "car guy" but I do love hatchbacks and wish the hot hatch style would make a mainstream comeback.
Graywulff@reddit
Macan?
Lower_Put4270@reddit
I’ve never owned one, but I do like nice ones. I’ve considered a Formentor VZx before settling on an i30N. I really hope my next car purchase can be a Crown Sport, those are absolutely gorgeous. So, I’m a car guy who doesn’t mind a nice crossover SUV.
But the thing is, I can get enthusiastic about different cars. I currently own a hybrid Crown, a manual 86 and a DCT i30N. And I think this is where the answer lies - car guys generally are DEEPLY conservative. They absolutely hate change, or anything different from what they grew up liking. That’s why you have Ford guys and Toyota guys. Why you have manual-only guys. Why you have anti-EV guys. Crossovers are relatively new, and have ushered in a massive change. Therefore, conservative car guys hate them.
Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit
I'm not opposed to crossovers, they just almost all suck. They're largely built on lame FWD sedan platforms just made taller. The few that aren't are stupid expensive.
Most-Description4665@reddit
I hate them too but being dad with 2 kids, my wife's sportage comes in handy. It doesn't get stuck in winter, easy for her to drive, comfortable, can carry stuff, all stuff I hate in a car. I like cars loud and fast. I like my trucks tall and loud. I want to feel the car and hear the engine. Comfort and quiet are not what interests me. However for her it's perfect and the less she complains the better it is for me.
OneManShow23@reddit
I don’t like crossovers because use more gas, cost more, they’re unnecessarily big, and don’t look good. Nevertheless, there are crossovers that I like. I always liked the Jeep Patriot because of its style, the Subaru Crosstrek because it’s almost identical to a higher Subaru Impreza, and I really like the 2013-2021 Honda HR-V because it’s as spacious as a compact minivan. But when my wife’s apartment’s lease expired, she moved in with me and I rented a nice GMC Yukon XL to help her. I reclined the second and third row, and it took us two trips to move all of her stuff to my place while sitting comfortably.
doc_55lk@reddit
They drive like shit, look like shit, and 90% of the people driving them don't need the extra capability they think they want.
floof29@reddit
Ugly, without a soul, performance like royalty free music And every manufcturer Is spitting them out like they are appliences.
They suck but people buy them anyway becose they don't know any better.
It Is the slop of the automotive world.
OnionTaster@reddit
Might as well get a minivan or a wagon, plenty of them around
FormerIntroduction23@reddit
They're the same trash for the masses. Cars used to be unique and people chose due to their personalities. Now a car is just a car. Crossovers have no specific speciality, not sporty, not big, not off-road, not luxury. Just plain old boring garbage.
Rich260z@reddit
Cars are tools, crossovers are the sporks of the autoworld.
simola-@reddit
I had a cross over, wasn’t big enough to haul stuff and wasn’t small enough to make me feel like I was saving anything. Now I have a cheap sedan and a truck, truck does its job as intended and the sedan does the same.
Crossover work for a few people that need a sedan but could benefit from the extra space. From what I’ve seen most people getting a crossover don’t actually need one and spend more money for convenience or looks.
samcuu@reddit
They are ubiquitous and exactly what most people want, so they're inherently uncool.
roosterjack77@reddit
AWD uses a lot of CVT transmissions and CVT is the death of enjoyable driving dynamics
No-Citron-2774@reddit
Oldies like cause they can get in and out easier
lazy_eye_of_sauron@reddit
Crossovers are kind of a half measure between a car and an SUV, and because of that, most of the time you don't really get the benefits of either.
For most people, you can get a sedan or hatchback, and have all the utility you need, and better gas mileage than a crossover.
If you need to go off road, you can get a decent AWD SUV or even something with 4 wheel drive and more ground clearance than a crossover, which most of the time don't have either AWD or 4 wheel drive.
As for if there are any good crossovers, Subaru makes the crosstrek wilderness, and it's a damn capable AWD machine with decent mileage. Does everything you would really want out of a small SUV, with the main drawback being that it's a unibody design, and it has no 4 wheel drive.
Playful-Park4095@reddit
Car guys like fun and capable designs. A touring car that's good at touring. A nice handling sports car. An SUV that can tackle decent trails, etc.
Crossovers tend to be bland in design and function. They are transportation appliances. Which is fine for people that want that, but enthusiasts don't.
Old-Figure922@reddit
Because crossovers killed all the good sedans and wagons. All for nothing because crossovers don’t have all that much more space than a sedan, but lose all the benefits of one. All the things people want in a crossover can be had with either a wagon or a minivan. Which are less boring, look better, and drive better because they have lower COG.
Crossover is all the disadvantages of an SUV with none of the benefits.
MysticMarbles@reddit
We used to have economical hatchbacks.
Then they started raising them up a few inches, having them get worse fuel economy, be less fun to drive and less nimble but otherwise in almost all cases still be just as small as their hatch counterpart, but also cost several thousand dollars more.
Then they took away our hatchbacks.
135is@reddit
Ugly