why would you shame this guy for asking a question? Answer yes or no. High horsing the OP makes you look like a douche
OP the answer is to either use your backup compass or run a gps. If you need it and nothing else is available, it would certainly be better than nothing.
Yup, was mounting a Starlink antenna on the roof of a Walmart and my boss decided to use his phone to find South. We both pulled our phones out and they never agreed on where South was, even when we checked with one phone at a time. Luckily I did my homework that morning and had a printout of the store layout with a line pointing South from where we were gonna put the antenna
Why not just use the compass attached to the airplane? It’s more accurate (and legal) than trying to hold your phone directly in line with the nose. Also keeps your hands free
Phone magnetometer used for compass are wildly unreliable, so small that any magentic field throws them off or decalibrates them.
Do a test.
Take the phone and hold it flat and open maps. See exactly which way is pointing. Is it exactly the way you're looking?
Rotate it along the 3 axis 3 times.
Try the maps again, did it change? It usually improves.
The magnetic field in the mounted compass is heavier and stronger, but not fail proof either.
I’ll argue that is your magnetic compass is less accurate than you holding your phone in your hand while bumping around, then that aircraft shouldn’t be flying. I don’t believe Apple themselves would risk the liability to even suggest you could do this
It's amazing how if you do a google search for accuracy of an iphone compass vs analog compass everything you find in the results says the exact opposite of what you claim... Seems the ole' analog compass tends to beat smart phones in terms of reliable accuracy.
I'm just letting you know what multiple sources agree upon when doing a simple search. The more I research it, the more it makes sense to have a compass that doesn't rely on electricity that will simply always work.
I'm not finding anything anywhere that says an iphone compass is *more* accurate than a standard compass (at least not on a meaningful level that would make a practical difference for basic navigation puposes). And your initial argument is that it is better and seemed to think that people that don't know that are ignorant and need to get some education. But here's an AI summary of magnetometer vs compass that seems to be in line with everything I've been reading.
A magnetometer is generally **more versatile and potentially more accurate** than a traditional compass because it measures the exact strength and direction of magnetic fields in 3D, whereas a compass only indicates horizontal direction. However, magnetometers are highly sensitive to magnetic interference, meaning **a conventional magnetic compass can be more reliable in simple, uncontrolled environments.**
Once again, the more I research it, it seems an analog compass tends to beat smart phones **in terms of reliable accuracy.**
I've taken an electronics course and it's a magnetometer. Also, the sensing technology has nothing to with accuracy unless it's calibrated for the exact magnetic environment it's in.
The magnometers in phones are typically in tolerance of 1 degree.
I would consider them to be severely accurate.
Again I'm not arguing to use one my previous comment specifically states to use the wet compass I'm just saying that in general they're severely accurate and can be recalibrated easily and can detect when they're out of calibration
Just calibrated my phone by doing the figure 8 business then pointed it due north (held it against the window of my house which is oriented exactly N/S). It read 347. This is at a location with less than 1 degree of magnetic deviation.
Based on experience, phones being that accurate is 100% not true. See it all the time. This is why the checklists include checking your old school compass against a known heading to ensure it’s accurate. 347 vs 360 is enough to have ATC get mad at you when you try to argue you are on the correct heading they gave you.
Apples own documentation states exactly:
“Use the digital compass only for BASIC navigation assistance. Don’t rely on it to determine precise location, proximity, distance, or direction.” (Emphasis mine)
Magnetometers do not detect heading. They detect single axis magnetic field strength. This only turns into heading after a algorithm is applied. So no, magnetometers are not 1 degree tolerance.
Unless you can explain hard iron, soft iron, and orientation calibration, you have no idea how to estimate the heading accuracy of a compass of any type.
You’re arguing engineering, I’m arguing a use case. It doesn’t matter how advanced your phone is if you have to hold it in your good ole fashioned hand.
In a static environment, sure, take the phone over the compass. Just don’t argue that it’s verifiably more accurate or reliable in a real world situation. It is a commercial product with, as far as I’m aware, no hard certifications standards. Again, I’ll say that if you asked Apple themselves about this use case they would tell you to not use their product as a sole lifeline
If it's not more accurate, you should break out $100 and let your mechanic do a compass swing.
I had my phone compass out during our last G5 calibration, and it was about 40 degrees off compared to our calibrated sight compass and the resulting GMU heading. You want to be waving around your phone like a doofus in IFR hoping your phone's magnetometer will eventually align?
If ur phone is off 40 degrees that isn't a tolerance error the thing is cooked or wasn't swung recently.
I can guarantee a properly calibrated nanoscale magnometernis more accurate than an analogue compass.
Again not arguing to use it in just arguing basic engineering.
Is there a way to make the G5 show magnetometer heading and GPS ground track heading at the same time? I'd be curious to see the difference in actual flight.
Because the plane may be equipped with a magnetometer instead of a compass. If the magnetometer or EFIS dies then having a backup, albeit poor, is better than having nothing.
I could be misreading things, but:
23.1311 and AC-23-1311-1C
From the AC, section 8.7 regarding display of … magnetic compass information \[on electronic flight displays\]
\>Section 23.1311(a)(5), as amended by Amendment
23-62, requires an independent magnetic direction indicator
Actually a fair number of EFIS still require a wet compass to be retained. It's often the only standby instrument we're legally required to leave in place when doing panel overhauls.
Yeah, that’d be down to the TCDS, and as far as I can tell (from a very quick search) other than Cirrus there haven’t really been any takers on eliminating it completely in a certified airplane.
Probably because it’s pretty cheap to install a compass.
I’ve flown in plenty of certified airplanes that don’t have a compass. The FAR’s only require a “magnetic direction indicator”, a magnetometer cover this requirement.
How are the in compliance with the requirements listed in 91.205 (b)? Minimum equipment requirements for VFR include a "Magnetic Direction Indicator." What are they using to meet that requirement?
Applies to standard airworthiness certificates. Read the reg.
IMO, this is a good reason not to fly an experimental. You’re vulnerable to massive stupidity like not having a DG backup.
The lack of a compass on a plane with dual magnetometers and gps heading failover is somehow lesser than a certified plane with a vacuum pump mechanical dg that by design precesses?
Dual G3X's almost always have only a single magnetometer that crossfills. Even G500TXi's aren't required to have dual magnetometer's until you get up in weight. But that's why a wet compass is still required under the STC's (even if you do actually get dual GMU's).
While not strictly required, most of the RVs I've seen have very nice panels especially compared to certified complete with a battery backup AI / DG. So it's really up to PICs own intelligence whether they want to fly without backup instruments.
Thayt hust comes down to builder/owner choice. I wouldn't put off flying any experimental because they have a choice, but would be more cautious about choosing which one.
Ok, that makes sense. I did read that in the reg, but just kinda figured that it would be expected of an experimental, but I guess experimentals are supposed to allow people to push what aircraft can do. Feels kinda out of touch with what the experimental classification is primarily used for in GA though.
But yeah, that just feels like a no brainer to want to comply with the min requirements for standard certs unless your experimental has a good reason not to. Even if not required, why not put it in anyway?
Accuracy in the sense that its mounted to the aircraft and is in line with where the plane is pointing versus holding it in your hand which is moving independently from the plane. At the end of the day they work on the same principle, but one *should* have been inspected and noted where the inaccuracies are for that particular aircraft
The real answer is use the magnetic compass, but you could always get a yoke mount for the phone and fly around different power settings, headings, etc to see if it lines up to match your real instruments. Wouldn't recommend hand holding it euther way though
I’ve seen other avionics shops than my own use their IPhone to calibrate the magnetometers in digital instruments like AV-30’s, G5’s, GI-275’s, HDX’s, and G3X’s and such, but I’ve never considered it truly reliable unless the compass is set perfectly in line with the nose of the aircraft.
The true way to do it is to have a calibrated magnetic compass installed in the aircraft and if it’s not perfectly accurate, having an updated deviation chart below it so you know exactly what direction you’re \*actually\* headed.
Not unless you have laser eyes that can perfectly align the phone with the nose. Is this a shitpost or something? Why would you go straight to pulling out the compass on your phone when you have a literal compass in front of you?
it would, but you don't need a compass if you already have one, you'd be better off having the phone behave like an attitude indicator and use the whiskey compass that's already installed.
I'd trust the phone's GPS before its compass/magnetometer. On every phone I've had, the compass has always been 10-40 degrees off. Sometimes doing the calibration figure-eight motion will bring it down to 5-10 degrees for a while.
Your phone can be used as a great backup, maybe check out Xavion.
Made by the creator of Xplane, and only by using phone sensors and ADSB weather it basically makes you a full glass cockpit for emergencies.
He has great videos on his channel (Austin Meyer), that will help with the setup.
So the phone can help, but I'd recommend using the right tools.
Possibly, but your compass and airspeed indicator are going to be more accurate. But pe9ple have successfully used their iPad to land in an emergency, so it is viable just not ideal.
Umm, the compass card designed to be adjustable independent of the underlying magnet so that you adjust it to minimize the deviation, with residual, deviation noted on the compass correction card.
It's a pretty standard setup for airplane compasses. It's called "swinging" the compass, and the FAA has a whole AC on how to do it properly: https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/ac_43-215.pdf
So many things: 1. You already have a compass and it works on magnets not vacuum. 2. Since you’re talking about vacuum and showing this picture I’m going to assume you mean could you replace the attitude indicator with a compass. The answer is no.
Yes thank you! I’ve always said that the iPad is far more accurate than the compass. Flight training literally has an entire chapter on compass errors because it’s horrible, truly a last resort instrument.
It should be accurate and if it's not, you're behind on maintenance.
As an avionics tech, iPads are not more accurate. For fun, I've had mine, my coworkers, and the shop phone on my lap during a compass correction, and the only things that matched with each other were the G5's and our calibrated compass, and the glareshield compass about 5 minutes later.
Well, make sure to let ATC know that if there's a considerable cross wind. If they give you a heading and you fly a track instead with a strong cross wind, you're gonna have a bad time.
I am very well aware of the difference between heading and track. It is very rare when there is a practical difference.
Based on experience, the most I have had (maybe 2-3 times ever) is ATC asking me for my current heading then giving me another heading based on what I tell them. Once in a while they will ask for an additional (say) 20 deg left (or right). I am sure they either know I am setting my DG based on GPS track or my compass is unstable (or the swing is off)...They don't really care and long as I go in the direction they want me to.
Now IFR departures with parallel runways where you a expected to maintain a particular heading on departure is a different story. And in that case I set the DG based on runway heading before I depart (again, ignoring the compass).
No because the phones compass isn’t calibrated for use inside of the aeroplane. It maybe could give an average Track, but it wouldn’t give an accurate heading when surrounded by various electronics and metal in general, that all creates EMI and would interfere with the phones compass.
Depends; mostly no (it may help if everything failed and you want general direction). However; I would not rely on that for flying the arc of degrees between say 360 and 090, it is going to deviate as it is designed to be in a fixed position. I would use the compass you reset your instrument to. Having said that, I'm pretty sure many are using the one on Foreflight so who knows these days. GA flying is getting interesting, I am seeing people fly a 30 minute flight with more EFB tooling than a 777... I suppose the love of flying has been lost by many?
I’m not a pilot but absolutely NOT. I work in an outdoors field and often have to document where something is at a customers house based on cardinal direction, I’m very well orientated with my city and simply knowing what direction I’m facing but sometimes I have to double check I’m not losing my mind, I stopped using this because it is always wrong by some amount wether small or complete opposite. I have the iPhone 16 so not an old model and using the map app and visual to satellite reference is better. Also just use the backup compass
The answer is YES … but there should be better instrumentation available. But yes it works The iPhone’s Compass app relies on three internal sensors, none of which require cellular service:
Magnetometer — measures Earth’s magnetic field to determine direction. This is the actual “compass.”
Gyroscope — helps track rotation and stabilize readings.
Accelerometer — helps determine orientation and tilt.
So maybe in a crazy emergency where everything else has failed there’s some tools available.
What I have seen from testing. NO. While my phone ( and watch ) will be spot on when I have no major metal or electrical fields near me, what I have seen in the cockpit from them has been way off. Maybe if ya do a few lazy 8s to calibrate… but I have not been that industrious. :)
Do you mean it’s an emergency and you’re in IMC? Sure, it’s better than nothing. But do you mean, “my vacuum pump is broken and I really want to go flying?” In that case, absolutely not.
Ok because I think people missed the point.
In a pinch, for say an Attitude Indicator in an emergency? and I had absolutely nothing else? And just as a reference? Absolutely.
Not the answer the FAA wants, but the reality is the tech in most phones is probably about on-par with whats in our 172s anyways.
I am not trusting a hand held for attitude for anything. Your phone only has accelerometers, meaning it is no better than the seat of your pants and we all know that leads to a death spiral.
Using an iPad as a heading source is a valid backup, but reliability is key. Consumer iPads often shut down or dim when they get hot, which is exactly what you don't want during a vacuum failure. Industrial-grade tablets like HUGEROCK are 2600 nits and designed for continuous heat soak in cockpits. They are MIL-STD-810H rated, so if you're relying on a tablet for critical backup info, a rugged unit that won't flake out under stress is a much safer bet.
It might work in a pinch but I checked my iPhones compass and gps location everyday for 4 months, there was a 90 degree maximum error for the data collected before “calibration” (rotating around all three axes, moving it forward and backwards on each axis, and flailing it randomly around my head in all directions) after calibration there was still a 6 degree maximum error. The latitude and longitude before and after calibration were usually off by 1 arc second. The altitude is also garbage. I did all this on the ground in the same spot everyday, I don’t have any clue how it would deal with dynamic changes and altitude.
An orienteering compass is cheap and fits easily in a shirt pocket, they go on every trip I take; but you should swing it in the aircraft so you know how it’s affected. the whiskey compass already in the aircraft is probably your best bet.
I would just use the compass mounted either on the dash or headliner, it even comes with a handy compass deviation card to help you with those tricky deviations
it would not. if you turn slow enough, you can do a full 180 without the phone's compass moving a bit. no idea how that works, but for some reason it's just like that
at least on my phone
There are better apps. The compass is irrelevant when you open up Foreflight and get a 3D AHARS driven PFD w/moving map. Yeah, not certified but definitely a situational awareness booster as you fly your legal 1930s era partial panel approach. Anything to help keep your SA up is a win in real life.
The compass of your cellphone doesn't need a vacuum system when you are in your backyard or in your airplane.
Comparing with the whisky compass installed in the airplane, the cellphone:
* Has a solid-state magnetic field detector, so it had a faster response (no lag an no overshoot).
* Has a more intuitive display.
* Is not calibrated to compensate for the influence of magnetic fields and magnetic materials in the airplane.
* Not accounting for the previous point, at least mine is already like 20 degrees off when I am on the streets or in my backyard.
* Keeps at least one hand occupied on holding it, so that hand is not available for other tasks.
* Is not legal equipment.
No, I’ve tried it in a tractor with a broken gps and the magnetic interference caused it to swing so far it was unusable. You’d have to calibrate it beforehand to know what heading to fly.
It’s easier and safer to call atc and tell em you need stop/start turn instructions to VMC.
The compass on an iPhone is extremely unreliable. But the GPS is quite good. That's what I would want to use in a partial panel situation, not the compass. Of course you need to be prepared for this by having an off-line map, and what you really want is Foreflight.
Some aircraft at the flight school I teach at don’t have a compass.
Considering that instead of gauges, we have screens and the only standby instruments we have are a altimeter and a ASI, it seems to be quite a decent option.
If you have a compass, please use it.
PS: XC flights are done over a large body of water where I teach. If I had nothing left, I would 100% go for that. We don’t use foreflight or any other aviation related app either, usually.
Is this outside of United States?
In the USA, [FAR §91.205(b)(3)](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-C/section-91.205) requires a “magnetic direction indicator if the aircraft is to be operated in Day VFR conditions.
It is a reasonable question. Try it, see if it is accurate enough. I suspect you will not want to try it again. I have a GTX345 transponder which has an internal AHRS and feeds that info to my iPad. It is not primary and is meant to be used as reference only. My CFII said I should try it before expecting it to work as a backup. Well... If you are over a standard rate bank, the pitch is off by 15 degrees or more. Really bad!
In my opinion, if you haven't tested and trained on something, it doesn't exist.
I’m sure you’re just joking and you’re fully aware of the magnetic compass requirement in 91.205. But someone else in this thread mentioned their flight school use experimental aircraft. Depending on HOW it was certificated, it is possible it would not have a compass (ex: experimental-LSA). In that very weird edge case, you could use your phone. But since you’d also likely be VFR, it might be more reliable to look out the window ang navigate with pilotage. 🤪
NO. This gives you some info on direction, but not attitude, which is what will kill you. Notice your AI and turn coordinator have you in a bank, but there's no way to see that from the apple compass?
Probably a better use of you phone during a vacuum failure is using the the measure app as an attitude indicator, you’d have to set it up on the panel somehow where it could be stable and level but I definitely think it could work. Atleast tell you if you’re in a bank or not.
You've got a turn needle, clock, and a wet compass. Toss that iPhone aside and learn partial panel. It will make men want you, and women want to be you. Or something like that.
off topic ish but i just saw a NYT piece from ukraine and the pilots seem to be using their iphones compasses.
https://youtu.be/d0b6ECKU\_Os?t=8&si=VbjHbHchha7qnEQK
No. It’s not an approved form of navigation. It’s an SA boost (in theory). ATC says turn left heading 270, you use the whiskey compass, a DG or raw data from a gps to make that turn and hold a heading.
Reminds me of that old guy’s atc recordings where he was using Foreflight only to get to his waypoints on an ifr flight plan.
Quite scary to think there’s people like that out there
Keep in mind that you fly a pressure altitude, not an actual altitude, so the elevation information would not be ideal for use flying, although it should keep you out of the trees. As for the compass heading, there are two ways a phone calculates heading, one is using the magnetometer built into it and the other is using GPS if you are moving (or a combination of the two) to determine a heading, technically one is a heading and the other is a direction of motion. Every app is different and may be changeable in the settings. Your phone is also most likely showing true heading not magnetic heading like a compass, but you need to check your program settings to be sure and know which one you are looking at.
For those reasons, as a backup device I would use it only if none of the built in aircaft backup instruments are working, including the wet compass.
No, they’re not even reliable enough for general use on the ground. My personal phone and my my work phone disagree significantly initially and eventually drift into alignment but it takes 20-30 mins sometimes.
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