TheaterFire

None of this will ever get stolen

Posted by martin_xs6@reddit | LocalLLaMA | View on Reddit | 300 comments

None of this will ever get stolen
It's crazy that they're thinking of doing this. There are problems with people stealing catalytic converters off people's cars and now they want to put a rack outside your house!?

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300 Comments

Dry-Judgment4242@reddit

This why we working on Terminators. Have one stationed at each of those rigs, when anybody tries to approach within 3 meters of it without authorization....
View on Reddit #85894386

Conscious_Cut_6144@reddit

You and 20 other houses each with a 200A service all share a single ~400A transformer. The infrastructure isn’t actually there.
View on Reddit #85360058

nero10578@reddit

Off topic, but do you still have the 16x3090 build? Can I ask what bios settings you used? I have the 3.93A bios from asrock and trying to do the same but I can't seem to get it to get past the pci out of resources still. [https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1j67bxt/16x\_3090s\_its\_alive/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1j67bxt/16x_3090s_its_alive/)
View on Reddit #85590903

Conscious_Cut_6144@reddit

My understanding of that bios is it is specific to FE 3090’s I currently have it broken down to 2 8x-3090 systems. Back when I built that, 405B was the best local model and it supported TP16 across all 16 gpus. I rarely need all 16 now, and when I do, I just do dual systems across 25gb lan.
View on Reddit #85598659

nero10578@reddit

Sorry can I ask when you had 16x3090 if they had the newer BIOS that had 32G BAR size?
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Conscious_Cut_6144@reddit

I know for sure one would have been running the old bios as I bought it at launch and never updated it. The rest I bought used but would guess they weren’t updated either.
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nero10578@reddit

Ah I see yea, hmm possible that the new 32G BAR size on my GPUs is causing issues with MMIO space then. I will email asrock about this. Thanks again.
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nero10578@reddit

Hmm I see, I have Gigabyte and MSI 3090s and it doesn't seem like that BIOS did anything for me. I find running across two machines causes a lot of instability, so I wanted to try running everything in one machine TP 16. I guess I'll have to contact Asrock and see if they can help then. Thanks!
View on Reddit #85599668

john0201@reddit

This would be approaching the cost of the house it is attached to. Given that people rip off downspouts for $10 of copper, I’m sure hundreds of thousands in computer hardware sitting in someones yard will be super safe.
View on Reddit #85335885

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Lol, my thoughts exactly. At least put them inside the house.. Or rent small server rooms at businesses or something so there's at least a bit of security. Maybe they could lock them down somehow if they had hardware support for it?
View on Reddit #85336302

billndotnet@reddit

Market it as a hot water heater.
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

AI powered, lol
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billndotnet@reddit

It's not even a new concept, an edge compute company in I think Sweden was doing that, using bulk compute, using the waste heat for homes. But every industry has waste output, find a use for it.
View on Reddit #85353389

AnonLlamaThrowaway@reddit

I believe there are data centers in Europe that are outputting their waste heat into municipal heating systems
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bigman11@reddit

I have a fantasy for new data centers to be required to make a free water park complete with hot tubs and saunas for their local community.
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Evanisnotmyname@reddit

People have been doing this with crypto mining forever.
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tiffanytrashcan@reddit

Yep, the Euria chat bot.
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Virtualization_Freak@reddit

People have been trying to get mining Asics to preheat your hot water for a decade at this point. I've seen multiple companies advertise "free hot water forever" and yet none ever stick because the hardware side of the tech stacks change way to fast for the ROI to make sense.
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FailBait-@reddit

Funnily enough when I finish my basement trapping the heat of my server rack exhaust into a utility closet with a heat pump water heater was the plan. Apparently I’m not the first to have the idea and it apparently works pretty well.
View on Reddit #85356342

More-Curious816@reddit

People steal ATMs by hooking a heavy-duty chain to the machine and using a big truck to drag it right out of its bolted position, ripping it from walls or floors. You underestimate people's desperation for some money.
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StyMaar@reddit

> You underestimate people's ~~desperation for some money.~~ greed FTFY. Nobody robs a bank out of desperation. Stealing food in the supermarket, yes, but stealing ATMs' cash is done by professional crews that are here for big bucks, not for survival change.
View on Reddit #85366075

crazylikeajellyfish@reddit

An ATM holds $20-$50k max. It's a living, but it's not like you can do it all the time without getting caught. I wouldn't call it big bucks, it's just people who don't have more marketable skills. There are many legal paths that are more lucrative, robbing banks is not a great way to get rich.
View on Reddit #85399925

SocietyTomorrow@reddit

Former ATM repair tech - 90% of ATMs hold less than $10k nowadays, and that is in cities like Las Vegas which use cash at a rate 8x higher than the rest of the USA. We are mostly a plastic society now. The casinos are pretty much the only ones that have \~50 in them, and maybe the ones that are inside of bank branches but accessed from a driveway, but those... you ain't stealing those, and if you did, it's probably the one in a 2nd lane driveway that holds way less for the same reason. For reference, the last ATM I serviced before I changed jobs had $216,500 something inside it. It was all checks, deposit slips, and the sort except for maybe $8,000. If you stole that ATM, only thing that would suck would be the insurance claim for the unverified deposits the machine took for the bank, and a whole lotta useless junk for the robber except (big maybe) identity theft (i don't actually know how useful those deposit slips would be)
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jazir55@reddit

>Nobody robs a bank out of desperation. [Money Heist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_Heist) says otherwise
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Freeme62410@reddit

lmao wut? no. most people who steal atms are fkn meth heads who are absolutely desperate for money.
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fatboy93@reddit

> People steal ATMs by hooking a heavy-duty chain to the machin Yes, let me get my familia. I need to find a BIL who's bald, an amnesiac SIL, get some black friends (I already have one); and some extra money for the sports cars I'll need to rent and gas up. /s
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NFLv2@reddit

Yeah well what would that do to the valuable parts inside? Would render them useless. Next will just be a way they have to connect to the internet like a PlayStation is going to have to so they work.
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mooneye14@reddit

Someone wasn't trying to do this as a space heater for Nordic countries during bitcoin boom
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Good way to justify it for the significant other? O it's just a really nice space heater, that's all..
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xienze@reddit

> At least put them inside the house That would be even worse. First, noise and heat dissipation. Second, all you need are thieves to know you have one in your house or _think_ you do and you'll be broken into constantly. This whole idea just shows how out of touch CEOs are. First for thinking that people would actually want to do this and second for thinking we live in a high trust society.
View on Reddit #85354271

Ruin-Capable@reddit

What are you talking about? First, how would these thieves get onto your estate? Second, how would they get past your private security patrols? Third, since it's in the secured underground vault part of the house how would they bypass the 50-ton blast doors? They'd be surrounded by police before they even got into the vault.
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The8Darkness@reddit

Just put automated gun turrets on it, controlled by the ai defending itself.
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SelectAd4082@reddit

Which eventually will get stolen too
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ScottBurson@reddit

But then you've got 48kW of heat to get out of the house. Not happening.
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Lyuseefur@reddit

It will be bolted into the electrical panel. I mean, you could unpackage that but it would take a bit. And I'm sure that there would be other ways of making sure it won't get unpackaged and resold. For now.
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LilPsychoPanda@reddit

Even if you put security on the side, servicing the hardware spread across god knows how far, will be an operational nightmare.
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perhaps_too_emphatic@reddit

Yes and: Power utilities rely on each home consuming significantly less than the maximum power at all times, so this only distributes grid challenges to homes. What a foolish nightmare across the board.
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Evanisnotmyname@reddit

Yeah literally..as someone who works in contracting and the solar industry, the whole reason for solar becoming big is BECAUSE of the lack of grid infrastructure. Datacenters are taxing it so much that brownouts, blackouts, even forced rolling blackouts, are becoming way more common and will continue to. There isn’t enough power. PERIOD.
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3dprintinted@reddit

Sheeeesh broda me as a homeowner will be doing the breakin into my own house. It’s all just a dog whistle to pulte guy who is a moron
View on Reddit #85388997

LeonJones@reddit

It's obvious people would try anyway but this isn't exactly the type of thing you can just sell at the pawn shop or scrap yard.
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john0201@reddit

No, it's far easier. You take a picture and put it on Facebook marketplace. It would sell in hours.
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Foreign_Risk_2031@reddit

this would be put onto condos. Nobody is on condo rooftops stealing copper.
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john0201@reddit

Oh really? [https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/explosion-atlanta-apartment-complex-tied-person-entering-illegally-stealing-copper-full-timeline/85-258fdaeb-5471-406a-bf64-aca4343c3ce6](https://www.11alive.com/article/news/local/explosion-atlanta-apartment-complex-tied-person-entering-illegally-stealing-copper-full-timeline/85-258fdaeb-5471-406a-bf64-aca4343c3ce6) These GPUs are the equivalent of loose diamonds chilling in a thin sheetmetal box bolted to a building.
View on Reddit #85384663

No-Refrigerator-1672@reddit

Copper? No. A hundred thousand dollars in computer hardware that's in shortage and under ultra heavy demand? Hell yes, They'll need literal snipers on the roofs to stop the thieves.
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Yellow_The_White@reddit

Your snipers will not stop me.
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ApolloRaines@reddit

pffft, I'd take the gpu's out of the one in mine and claim they were stolen LOL - I need 2x blackwell 6000's.
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DesperateAdvantage76@reddit

This isn't going in neighborhoods where that's an issue.
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xienze@reddit

> This isn't going in neighborhoods where that's an issue. Any neighborhood you put one of these things in WILL become a neighborhood where "that's an issue."
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phovos@reddit

This is a uniquely stupid American problem, lol. All the serious electrical engineers have been calling attention to this catastrophe since 2023 and the idiot financiers and regulators just keep doubling down on stupidity.
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unrulywind@reddit

No, my friend, this predates AI. We have been talking about this since the 90s. The US grid quit growing in the 1980s and began limping by on ancient infrastructure because that made cheap power bills for politicians, and avoided the costs of litigation to build new plants. By 2014, the problem was obvious and the lowest possible projected cost to replace the old generation was estimated to cause a 4x multiplier on electrical costs. The US was only able to limp by, because every time we built new subdivisions, we shut down large physical manufacturing plants to free up power. A steel mill takes the power of a small city. Until, now, and there are no plants left to shut down. The old plants are being shuttered, and the lawyers make sure nothing gets built. We have shut down over 200 GW of just coal plants in 15 years, and now have 165 GW of coal power left. We think we have had an effect on the environment, but in that same 15 years 1,100 GW of new coal powered electricity was built in China, where they now have both the infrastructure and manufacturing to run this new economy.
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TomToledo2@reddit

"The US was only able to limp by, because every time we built new subdivisions, we shut down large physical manufacturing plants to free up power." A recent NYT article, "It's the Age of Electricity and America Isn't Ready" (April 27), cites a different factor. It claims that there was an anomalous stagnation in the growth of power consumption over the period from roughly 2000 to 2020 due to the growing adoption of more efficient lights, replacing incandescent bulbs, first with CFLs, and then with LEDs. There are several interesting plots in the article to back this up (including separate plots showing energy use for lighting and other purposes in both residential and commercial sectors). Hopefully an NYT gift link will be sharable: [Opinion | Why Is Your Electric Bill Going Up? Blame the Broken Grid. - The New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/04/27/opinion/electricity-power-grid-infrastructure.html?unlocked_article_code=1.eVA.uy70.nwB7UrmFNIMe&smid=url-share)
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unrulywind@reddit

As someone who designed, and built industrial and utility scale systems, I can tell you that light bulbs meant jack shit. The bullshit line has always been. Oh, its efficiency gains. How do you explain how removing some 100 watt light bulbs made up for adding 1000 watt computers everywhere. We connect larger electrical services to new houses than we did in 1980 and have twice as many houses. We closed 100 steel mills at roughly 70 MW each. 100's of paper mills. almost every glass plant and foundry in the entire country. Then we shut down 250 GW of power plants without replacing them. In 1993, the incoming Clinton Admin, asked the Industry what should be done with Mercury. The head of engineering of the largest engineering company in America said, "You have no new power under construction and if you started today, you will roll brownouts before it's finished. When the lights go off, you won't care about mercury." Mercury controls were delayed 20 more years. These issues were documented years before AI. Its an issue now because the plants your grandad bought and paid for are dying and nobody wants to pay for new ones. Well, there are new ones in China. Twice as many coal plants in a single country as ever existed in the world before 2010. They will add and additional 2 times as many as exists in America in the next 3 years.
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TomToledo2@reddit

The data in the plots comes from the U.S. Energy Information Administration. It includes quantitative comparison of lighting to computers. For residential users, in 2000, lighting completely dwarfed computers for power usage. In 2025 lighting was using only a fraction of the power it used in 2000, but still more than computers. The power usage of computers in residences grew from \~2005 to 2010, but then decreased substantially. I suspect this reflects the development of lower power processor technology (e.g., Intel's Core series; ARM); there have been dramatic gains in cycles per watt in the last 20+ years. I don't know what type of computer you are considering for your 1000 watt number. A fully loaded tower with a powerful graphics card will use that much when playing an intense computer game. But that's not a typical use case. The workstation I use at work, as a data scientist, has a 1000 W power supply, but it was overspecified. The fairly powerful GPU card I use draws \~ 250 W when it's churning (which it usually isn't). My new Mac Studio at home idles at 13 W and draws about 200 W in a hard workload (video rendering, say). But most home Apple users would have a Mini or an iMac, which use \~100 W at max load (as an Apple and Linux user, I don't know Windows PC numbers offhand). Most home computers now use laptop processors (Intel's Core series, or ARM processors) that draw low power. All this is in line with the US EIA's claim that computing is a smaller power draw than lighting, even modern LED lighting. By their numbers, TVs use more power than computers (and always have, since when the charts start, in 2000). Your comment about reduced manufacturing load is what really interested me, since it seems to make a lot of sense, yet it wasn't mentioned in the NYT article. The EIA numbers show that residential power use has been a bit larger than commercial use since 2000. They show that lighting was by far the largest component of commercial use in 2000, but now is second, behind ventilation. The reduction in power draw from lighting has been significantly smaller for the commercial sector vs. residential. Commercial electricity use overall has grown rather than shrunk since 2000, but not by much. But EIA's projections show it growing substantially over the next two decades, mainly due to data centers. So I don't know how to reconcile the shutdown of manufacturing facilities with the EIA numbers. Could it be that the shift from a manufacturing economy to a service economy roughly preserved electrical usage, just moving it from plants to office parks? "We connect larger electrical services to new houses than we did in 1980 and have twice as many houses." I just had the service for my own house upgraded from 100 A to 200 A, as part of a heat pump installation. However, I didn't really need all of that extra power. It was installed largely to future-proof my house, in particular, in case I or a future owner have to charge an EV. The EIA numbers show that US residential energy use has actually \_declined\_ slightly since 2005, despite population and housing growth, presumably reflecting increasing efficiencies. However, it's expected to grow in the coming decades as consumers move to electric heating (heat pumps) and, esp., EVs. I'm not doubting your experience or the specific claims about closed plants. But unless the EIA is missing something huge, there was something more complex happening than simply removing a big chunk of electrical demand & supply without replacing/shifting that demand & supply. The EIA has a web page charting the history of total US electrical power generation over time. It grew really quickly from 1950 to 2000. At that point, it nearly leveled off, but it did continue to grow. At no point was significant electrical capacity removed. And over the last 5 years the rate of growth has picked up significantly (mainly from natural gas power plants and renewables). You are right that a huge amount of coal-powered capacity was removed starting around 2005. But it was more than made up for by dramatic growth from other sources.
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unrulywind@reddit

The EIA has become a very interesting document in recent years. In 2014 it showed clearly that every possible form of new electricity would cost over 3x the current wholesale price. At that time the average cost of power was $29/MW and the LCOE for new wind was $74/mw. The newest EIA shows that new wind is <$50/MW, and in some scenarios as low as $29/MW. It shows that the labor cost of maintaining a windmill to be less that is was in 2014 even though the cost per man-hour has doubled and the productivity of construction has declined. I agree that the EIA is the best numbers available, even though its accuracy comes and goes with political pressures. I confess I did not read the entire article originally, it was obvious it was written to support a preconceived conclusion. But if you look about 1/3 of the way down the page they have a chart labeled as "Electricity demand has started rising faster again" but it is the only place they include industrial in their information and it shows clearly that the industrial load between 2000 was dropping as fast as everything else was increasing, and in spite of them saying lighting was the magic change, both the total residential and commercial loads were increasing the entire time. And this chart only shows the industrial load purchased from the grid. It does not consider that most of the old large industrial plants generated a lot of their own power. The bottom line is that we have known this train wreck was coming and ignored it. Even now, a ton of people want to stop new power from being built while blaming data centers. The majority of new datacenters in the US will now be built with their own, grid detached privately owned power generation. Once that is done, once the datacenters are stand alone, the opportunity to get these hyperscalers to pay for the new generation plants for the general population will be over, and the bill will still come due, just a few years later.
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TomToledo2@reddit

"And this chart only shows the industrial load purchased from the grid. It does not consider that most of the old large industrial plants generated a lot of their own power." That seems an important piece of the puzzle. If you know somewhere where that's quantified, that would be helpful for building a more complete picture of what has happened. As you say, it does seem to be the case that a major bill is coming due; both this article and others with different perspectives agree on that. It seems it has as much to do with the actual grid as with power production. In my area (upstate NY), a large electric distribution rate increase has just been proposed by our utility (NYSEG), the 2nd one in \~5 years. And the reason they give is overdue grid maintenance and upgrades. I don't follow the argument that some kind of forced shutdown of coal-powered electricity generation has played a significant role in this. The dramatic decrease in coal has spanned multiple adminstrations; the rate of decrease didn't slow at all during Trump I, which was favorable to coal in terms of policy (in fact, it may have accelerated then). The US generation industry appears to have abandoned coal on its own, purely for financial reasons, because of the availability of cheaper petro energy via natural gas, due to the US both having immense NG reserves, and building the fracking technology to tap them. China has neither of these things. They have invested in coal because they don't have the NG option that the US has; but it appears they consider it only as a stopgap or a partial solution. They are eating the US renewable industry alive with government-backed investment, while the US is both shutting down current renewable projects, and putting up hurdles for new projects. The person who started this part of the thread complained about the us "destroy\[ing\] the petrochemical economy." They seem not to have gotten the news that the US is the largest producer of both natural gas and of oil. But both are finite resources. China seems to be playing a smarter long game than us. Yes, they are tapping into the finite petro resource they happen to have at hand (coal), as we have been tapping into our most abundant petro resource (NG). But they seem to be smarter than us in terms of trying to play the energy game with a full deck, rather than tossing half of the suits away to start with. And of course there's also the nuclear option... a whole other story that I've only looked enough into to realize it's complicated, and not a silver bullet, though possibly part of a comprehensive response.
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unrulywind@reddit

To understand the economics of the electrical grid in the US, you have to understand that it's not a capitalist system. The utilities put up the money to build plants, and then they operate them. Every step of the way, they are told what they can build and how much they can spend. In return for this regulation, they are guaranteed a set return, usually around 9.5%. The last big push to build electricity in the US was in the 1980's. Very little was built in the 90s and then gas and wind since the mid 2000s. The utilities would love to build more. They get interest in the investment for 40 years when they build a new plant. Plus they sell the power. Many times they fight against changes because they have existing investments and if they shut them down, then the bill comes due and NO politician wants to raise rates. But in most of these cases, the old plants are paid off and so they are only getting paid for the power. Much better to get paid twice and build a new one. And, yes, China is playing a much smarter game. But, it goes deep. They are building out huge excess capacity, and then, when the US fails to have the will to keep up, they will offer the big companies a deal. Come to China and build all the data centers you want. Of course you can always fund the activists that stop the US from building just to help it come true. Basic Three Body Problem.
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AnonLlamaThrowaway@reddit

> but in that same 15 years 1,100 GW of new coal powered electricity was built in China, where they now have both the infrastructure and manufacturing to run this new economy. To be fair, China's solar and nuclear production is completely skyrocketing right now. Coal is only gonna be an intermediary step for them
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unrulywind@reddit

It's an intermediate step for everyone, and they keep saying that, but they still have 2 times more new coal plants under construction than exist in the US. I would agree if these were small inexpensive temporary plants, but they are some of the largest, base-load-only plants in the world, and they have a 50 year life. China had been slowing down on fossil fuels, until AI. Now they continue to speed up the production of the old base load techs. As you said, China is also building renewables at a very high rate, but it's not quite as good as it seems, 1,000 GW of base load coal or gas makes 1,000 GW every hour, every day. 1,000 GW of solar or wind makes maybe 300 GW of actual generation. They are not crazy, their government is populated by engineers.
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phovos@reddit

those are strategic my dude lol. This is why you shouldn't rely on single facts. Yes China has tons of coal plants. Inactive. Well, maybe no inactive today considering the fuel crisis that everyone has been talking about for a decade is now ongoing, you know, the reason China put a bunch of coal plants on mothballs...oh
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Individual_Holiday_9@reddit

I work deep in the utility space and man I need to figure out if there’s a Chinese version of what I do and go there lmao
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phovos@reddit

I wanna go back in time and roshambo the king Anti-nuclear hippy. Kick him squaw in the nads. They discredited a generation of leftists and political movement. Turned protest and public action into a farce. Perfect plan, if you are actually the enemy of global progress lmao.
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Catastrophe as in not enough power overhead/transmission capacity for growing energy needs?
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phovos@reddit

Are you joking? lol. Look at the economy; the entire speculative bubble is propped-up on something the experts explained over and over again is impossible if you don't start contracting with China RN for High Voltage DC and desert solar-farms.
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NineBiscuit@reddit

haaah, good luck trying to put that at my house.
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daedalus1982@reddit

All of that money next to an AC condenser is getting stolen. 100% If they go through with this idea I will steal a few \> This sounds insane until you look at... Nothing. This is just insane. People really just be saying anything they want on the internet. You can't connect a "before the meter" bitcoin miner to my damn house. JFC this is like ghouls trying to sell cannibalism to humanity on the strength of "you gonna just let all that meat go to waste?"
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

My guess is they would be hardware locked to make stealing it pointless. Of course that doesn't stop vandals. A lot of people would be all about drilling holes in random data center racks outside people's houses to cost AI companies 200k. Wild to keep them outside.
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Tibor_BnR@reddit

It would still be stolen for scrap metal if nothing else
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I'm sure you're right. I'd be a little sad to see them stolen for just scrap metal. If you're going to steal it at least use the compute, haha
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Wonderful_Device312@reddit

Meth heads.
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The8Darkness@reddit

Even if they could hardware lock both the core and memory (so chinese couldnt rip it off and put it on a modded pcb), there are still quite a few other valuable components on the pcb that at the very least could be sold to repair people.
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hsien88@reddit

AC units are also outside the house but they don’t get stolen. Solar panels can also easily be resold.
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TheLimpingNinja@reddit

3TB of RAM is about 25k+ and each GPU $10k lower end, that’s about $200k in a lockbox vs an AC or crawling on a roof for some panels.
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daedalus1982@reddit

bless you I'm glad you live in a place where people don't steal AC units. It sounds nice there.
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Tibor_BnR@reddit

AC units do get stolen. Though it usually takes at least two guys. In rougher neighborhoods they are gated in. I'm sure these silly GPU boxes would be locked in, as well, but since they walk easier, bolt cutters and 10 mins is all it would take. Solar panels are up on the roof.
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daedalus1982@reddit

I welcome the future insanity that will inevitably arise but holy crap do people come up with some solutions in search of a problem.
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Seems a little more reasonable than the datacenters in space thing. Not reasonable, mind you, just more reasonable than that, haha.
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Send_heartfelt_PMs@reddit

It'll come with a couple cameras that run facial detection etc locally (and of course they can then sell all that video and data to another company like Flock). We'll buy "dumb" robots as upgrades to service them on our own dime because they'll change the terms and conditions and the courts will toss out any pro-consumer lawsuits Or some crazier dystopian stuff that I sadly wouldn't be surprised by
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Old_Bus_9481@reddit

16 GPUs would turn your house into an oven 😭 Even if you manage to AC the house. What happens to your street if this gets widespread acceptance 😭
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PrintEngineering@reddit

I would agree to this if they let me utilize the hardware at full capacity for 1/4 of the day.
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WarFrequent7055@reddit

I just had an interesting thought experiment with Claude for putting mini data centers in electric vehicles. Be very difficult to accomplish now, but the tech needed to actually do it didn't look like it's that far into the future. It's funny to think about the fact that we think we're so technically advanced, I'm sure the people living in 1926 felt the same way!
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martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Maybe they pay for your car charging if your mini data center is on and connected? Internet connectivity would be tough for that, tho. I was thinking about putting a backup NAS in my car. Figured if there's a natural disaster or something, I would probably drive my car out of there, and it'd be nice to have my data come with me without any extra effort.
View on Reddit #85430887

Sniper-nighthawk@reddit

Interesting idea. What kinda of negative effects would that have on your battery life though?
View on Reddit #85500503

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I think it should be fine from that perspective. I used to have a raspberry pi in my old car that I used to add Bluetooth to the AUX cord. I left it plugged in and on all the time. It was a gas car, and that wasn't even enough to drain the battery unless I let it sit for a week or two. The current usage would probably be around 10-20 Watts at idle? An electric car uses several hundred Wh/mile, so even one mile of battery is enough to power the NAS for a very long time.
View on Reddit #85520114

waitmarks@reddit

This was a scheme back in the bitcoin craze as well, but never materialized into an actual product. back then, they were trying to sell it as a heater that gave you free heat while the company collects the bitcoin. I doubt this will go anywhere either as this is 10x more complicated than a bitcoin miner.
View on Reddit #85335238

jannycideforever@reddit

I have zero clue if it will or will not work this time, but it makes sense it wouldn't ever work for Bitcoin. Bitcoin is definitionally a speculative asset; there is near-zero use-value for it, and prices are a reflection of what people expect the price to be later and nothing more. This means that all Bitcoin activities are ultimately zero-sum (or worse, negative sum due to transactions fees). Any money that someone wins must come at an equivalent loss + transaction costs. Mining doesn't really change this; it just compounds the issue. You are basically diluting the value of Bitcoin to create your own, and this comes at the cost of energy and buying hardware. The nature of Bitcoin means this will almost always be low margin at best, and the only economically viable operations will require extremely cheap, often state subsidized energy. They get to essentially engage in an economically harmful activity because the costs are partially paid by tax payer subsidizing their energy. Overall, there are only very limited cases where mining makes sense. For AI, it's a completely different game. Even if the markets are over-estimating the value of AI, it still obviously has economic utility that means it will make the pie bigger. Since compute for AI has actual economic value, producing that compute and selling it is economically viable. The question is whether this approach will be able to generate compute at scale at a cost that is competitive. If so, it'll work. If not, it won't.
View on Reddit #85343195

waitmarks@reddit

You are trivializing the problem down to just the cost of compute. That's the easy part. Power and internet service are inherently less reliable at a house than at a datacenter. I am assuming here that this scheme is talking about doing distributed inference since the latency would make training a non-starter. How does this handle nodes going offline? What happens when a request in the middle of being processed is interrupted and has to be switched to a different node? What happens when a residential transformer explodes and takes out a large amount of your capacity? These are all non trivial questions to answer when everything is in 1 location, never mind spread across the country. Also it still doesn't really address the fact that there isn't enough power generation to do all of this regardless of if its concentrated in a datacenter or spread out. There is a limited capacity to generate power in a given area. Bitcoin mining was easy by comparison and it still didn't make sense to not have it centralized. There if a node goes offline, you just get paid less until it comes back online.
View on Reddit #85344921

jannycideforever@reddit

I'm not really disagreeing with everything here, though. I'm saying there isn't an economic reason to find a technical solution for Bitcoin mining, even if it's easier. The only time it would make sense economically is if you have access to subsidized energy, access to the capital to build and set everything up, and have no superior places to put that capital instead. There is virtually zero people in the world that fit all 3. Everything you're saying is correct and it means that those will need to be addressed, which will come with some degree of additional operational costs. However, since there IS genuine economic benefits that people could theoretically get significant profits from, then IF you can solve those problems in a way that is cost efficient relative to the pricing you can allow, it makes a ton of sense to do so. You're right that it may not be viable because of that. I do not have the technical know-how to answer it. I'm just pointing out that nobody ever had a reason to solve the (much smaller) problems for using this solution to mine Bitcoin because Bitcoin mining is so economically irrational that it's not worth trying to solve it, irrespective of how difficult the solution would be.
View on Reddit #85438231

waitmarks@reddit

I think you are confusing theoretically economically rational vs practically rational. You can definitely argue that bitcoin mining is theoretically economically irrational. However, it was for a long time totally practically rational to purchase bitcoin miners and start mining. During the peak of the craze you could buy an antminer for a couple grand and earn that back and then some before the theoretical part kicked in. You are right though that ultimately, only the miners with the lowest margin / cost of electricity can possibly survive. People just saw the short term gain and didn't think about longer term economics. As is the case most of the time with crypto lol.
View on Reddit #85439049

jannycideforever@reddit

This is admittedly just a guess BUT I would imagine that most of the money going into Bitcoin mining was by fairly stupid people who didn't actually run the numbers to see the costs and benefits. Hardware depreciation is hard to calculate, same with power usage. I honestly doubt most of them even did a good job of tracking earnings. Cryptocurrency is a fundamentally stupid technology whose only use cases are illicit activities (and even then, anyone with a brain uses Monero or similar coins), plus maybe a few other niche cases. To be interested it necessitates being either dumb or too ignorant to understand this. Anyone interested in Bitcoin is going to be too stupid to have the capital and know-how to deploy the kind of setup described here, irrespective of how easy the solution can be (with little exception). And just so it's clear, I'm not saying it IS practically feasible. Genuinely no clue how much you can actually solve the problems, nor what the costs would be and how it would impact pricing potentially. Just saying that if it is possible to do this with good cost/pricing windows, it will probably happen.
View on Reddit #85440873

pomlife@reddit

Exactly, plus they’re all doo doo heads.
View on Reddit #85508929

sautdepage@reddit

You underestimate the reliability of the swarm that distributed compute provides. It doesn't (and shouldn't) matter that one node, or even a whole country of nodes, goes down. \- bandwidth: P2P is still one of the very few ways that consistently maxes out my fiber internet. \- latency: nodes spread-out worldwide are ideal for best latency selection "at the edge" \- resiliency: requests can easily be re-routed on failure, or always sent to 2 nodes (eg. under a reputation threshold) \- uptime: mostly comes down to the orchestrator service, there's always enough nodes. Cloud gets their share of outages too, not hard to compete. DePIN (DEcentralized Physical Infrastructure Network) projects have solved for these for years. In many cases some combination of bandwidth, uptime, reliability, latency and cost is *better* than centralized cloud. Security remains the hard challenge.
View on Reddit #85353893

Suitable-Economy-346@reddit

> How does this handle nodes going offline? What happens when a request in the middle of being processed is interrupted and has to be switched to a different node? These problems already exist and are already handled. > What happens when a residential transformer explodes and takes out a large amount of your capacity? At this monstrous scale, it isn't a big deal. It just gets offloaded to another one. > These are all non trivial questions to answer when everything is in 1 location, never mind spread across the country. Being spread across the country isn't a hurdle and could be considered a benefit. > There is a limited capacity to generate power in a given area. There isn't limited capacity though. Power generation really isn't an issue anywhere. Nowhere in the US is running out of power generation. That just isn't a thing. You'd know damn well if it was. This isn't some incredibly complex thing. This is very easy and everything is already solved.
View on Reddit #85353061

mohelgamal@reddit

There was actually a more legitimate idea which was to rent your extra computer capacity to cloud provider in exchange for a cryptocurrency reward. Sort of like the folding @ home project that was used to study proteins.
View on Reddit #85342091

MMalficia@reddit

there was also a gamified science research thing in some of the borderlands games , i am actually surprised we have not seen more of that industry wide. play games help research whatever.
View on Reddit #85386695

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Yeah, no chance it actually happens. Although I will say it's a good way around the current hate for new datacenters. Much harder to regulate if anyone can buy one and have it attached to their house.
View on Reddit #85335582

I_am_BrokenCog@reddit

how is it a work around?? Whether the energy demand is concentrated in one building or spread out across five hundred buildings, the same power generation is needed and the same distribution is needed. It only makes it cheaper/quicker for the data-center construction by avoiding the need for local substation upgrades.
View on Reddit #85338022

wektor420@reddit

Harder to protest against multiple people putting this stuff in homes vs a giant single ai center It doesn't make sense tho as fast networking is really important in those centers
View on Reddit #85338751

StatusSociety2196@reddit

Yeah think about the people who link together sparks or apple pros in this sub and see a t/s drop-off over 6 inches
View on Reddit #85372945

OverclockingUnicorn@reddit

Fast networking is only needed for training, assuming the model they are doing inference on fits in all the GPUs within a signel location. This would only need a few hundred mbits/sec bandwidth when doing inference as it's literally just rest with fairly modest payload sizes
View on Reddit #85345849

MattAlex99@reddit

There are multiple orthogonal problems with large data centers. One is certainly the total account of power (people have no concept of what a gigawatt is), but there are plenty of other problems, like delivery and cooling. When building a datacenter we have to get the power there, which usually involves updating the entire grid all the way down to the datacenter. cooling is a similar issue where high density yields much more complex (and every intensive) cooling. Decentralized deployments solve both of these issues. At least that's the theory: in practice the domestic grids are already being pushed to their limits due to the advent of heat pumps and electric cars (this is why many countries now force charging and heat pumps to be remote controllable: you may need to turn off consumption to save the grid). Renewables like solar make the discussion more complex again: solar is kind of a nightmare from a grid management POV since it's intermittent and all corollated. This means your net consumers might suddenly be massive net producers for a couple of hours couple of months per year. Here solving batch jobs locally could make sense on a grid level but that significantly increases the ROI time for the gpus, which is already a critical parameter in whether gpus make sense. You would also need some form of cooperation with utilities, which is not only difficult, but utilities are probably also not going to facilitate that for free...
View on Reddit #85348999

scslmd@reddit

Oh, people know exactly what a gigawatt is. It's all relative. The real constraint comes from getting the rack up to 1.21 gigabytes if we're planning to send the data back to 1955. Anything less than that and we're just building a very expensive space heater.
View on Reddit #85352581

AmusingVegetable@reddit

As soon as I saw “gigawatt” I knew this was coming…
View on Reddit #85355076

starkruzr@reddit

well, it doesn't *have* to be all that intermittent. depends on whether or not the folks running these "home co-los" are ok buying batteries.
View on Reddit #85354762

I_am_BrokenCog@reddit

I'm curious why you responded to my comment?
View on Reddit #85349240

cosmicr@reddit

Remember people were building solar farms and thermal energy power stations for their mining. I wonder what they're up to these days...
View on Reddit #85363296

jld1532@reddit

If real, another bubble indicator.
View on Reddit #85336139

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

You're saying I might end up with a small data center rack of compute outside my house when the company making them goes bankrupt when the bubble pops? Sounds great.
View on Reddit #85337320

doctorfiend@reddit

Hold up I hated this idea but you just sold me on it
View on Reddit #85340288

carnoworky@reddit

Don't worry, whoever buys up the failed company will still own the hardware, but they'll offer a worse deal for you to keep it around. Since they own it, you won't be allowed to use it for anything.
View on Reddit #85341683

Dany0@reddit

that product was real I think but it took so long to get to market it was finally available post Ethereum switch to staking lmao
View on Reddit #85340872

waitmarks@reddit

A "real" product that doesn't ship isn't real imo, it's a prototype.
View on Reddit #85341119

gnomebodieshome@reddit

Most neighborhood transformers aren’t rated for all the houses or even a majority of them to be using the full service amps all the time.
View on Reddit #85337269

solar_sausage@reddit

Mm, it wouldn’t work for all the houses. But for a small portion that should be okay
View on Reddit #85507789

temperature_5@reddit

This. It's like ISP bandwidth or anything else, massively oversold. Probably not a bad solution for dozens of little nodes spread around town to power a startup or something. But it's not scalable any more than the grid as a whole. And you better be very covert at installing them, and they'd better look like something much less valuable, like a tiny backyard shed...
View on Reddit #85355181

Medium_Ordinary_2727@reddit

The article says it goes next to your AC condenser. Where I live, every HOA requires them to be behind a fence. They won't be visible from the road.
View on Reddit #85390386

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

For sure. Wonder if it's easier politically for them to get residential transformers upgraded than it is to get land and utilities for a whole data center, though. At least here the residents that have it would probably support the upgrades politically Also only a problem if it really scales. I bet there wouldn't be that high of a percentage of homes that do it, so maybe it'd be fine.
View on Reddit #85337703

gK_aMb@reddit

Pulte the company every house inspector on YouTube rips apart as being one of the top shittiest builder in America?
View on Reddit #85478135

SnekyKitty@reddit

I don’t imagine this is for anyone with a home value less than 15 million, they’re probably targeting a very specific and extremely wealthy part of California for branding.
View on Reddit #85464410

SocietyTomorrow@reddit

Good lord, That's at least $150,000 of GPUs in front of each house! That's got to be horrible for the electric grid, does anyone know where these are being tested so I can perform an energy audit?
View on Reddit #85449599

Kazen_Orilg@reddit

Its pretty funny that the whole Twitter post is absolutely AI shit-writing as well.
View on Reddit #85448992

darksteelsteed@reddit

Despite the risk of theft the business model looks like these will be installed into gated and secured housing communities at build time. So while the theft risk exists its not the highest. The bigger risk is the home owner not opting into the program and then hacking the unit for their own personal gpu farm. Second risk is if you have enough of these sucking 48kw/200A service then you get substation or grid collapse. It seems like a very short sighted idea packed in a long term deployment
View on Reddit #85437412

Massive-Question-550@reddit

This is like leaving a large bar of gold just sitting on your driveway. 
View on Reddit #85414853

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Like *them* leaving a bar of gold sitting on my driveway, haha
View on Reddit #85431006

DrDisintegrator@reddit

Pretty fun idea. I would imagine putting it INSIDE the house, perhaps in a concrete 'box' of a room would make more sense. In places where you have an in-ground basement, you often have a concrete slab for your front 'porch'. In our house this area was going to just be filled in with earth, but I convinced the contractor to make it into a little room. Now it is our 'storm cellar' / 'wine cellar'. It has an exterior grade door and all walls are solid concrete.
View on Reddit #85413051

HVACcontrolsGuru@reddit

This is going to last a year or two until the utilities pick up on it. Most of the US grid would struggle with dynamic loads like this in mass.
View on Reddit #85335722

CM0RDuck@reddit

Hell, in Texas it struggles if its too hot or too cold.
View on Reddit #85336439

ericatclozyx@reddit

And sometimes the opposite!
View on Reddit #85409216

ericatclozyx@reddit

Many consumer grids already struggle in summer holidays - this would be even worse.
View on Reddit #85401652

dbenc@reddit

dynamic? they would be blasting 100% of the tine
View on Reddit #85336934

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Probably depends what they're using it for. My guess is data center traffic for inference is pretty bursty like the rest of the internet is.
View on Reddit #85337496

HVACcontrolsGuru@reddit

GPU traffic in general is bursts with workloads. It’s not like it will handle a single model 24/7. Compute loads will shift.
View on Reddit #85339405

Psychological_Ad8426@reddit

Seems like max load would be middle of the work day when it is 114 degrees outside...
View on Reddit #85339114

Psychological_Ad8426@reddit

Right, if every home tried to use the max available bad things would happen.
View on Reddit #85336506

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Yeah, and it's much harder for them to find + regulate than if they were all in one data center.
View on Reddit #85336215

diagrammatiks@reddit

Uhhh. Just let me use it.
View on Reddit #85408747

ericatclozyx@reddit

Probably uncontroversial in this sub - but surely the solution is rather pushing the compute in the opposite direction - to the user's device? Why ship an app to my iPhone, which has had an NPU in it since forever, but then send inference requests to some server in a data centre on the other side of the country, and now we're saying that might get relayed from there out to a GPU bolted to an air conditioner on the side of someone's house.... Not only is that a wild round trip to help me edit an email, how exactly is data security handled in this scenario? How about: \- on-device first, then \- transparently hand off to more powerful device on my local network, then \- hand off to a powerful remote device (that I own), then \- if the first three options aren't available for some reason, then maybe send it to a data centre?
View on Reddit #85401586

discord5000@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/l8stqohqbozg1.jpeg?width=672&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f581c5f4f589aa1b886df2b3990d6644c0902fb
View on Reddit #85398049

Electrical_Tailor186@reddit

I don’t envy the electrical engineers responsible for grid stability if that idea gets realized o a large scale…
View on Reddit #85394895

chiller105@reddit

Apart from the chances of it getting stolen, this is actually pretty smart. Although I would say people who don’t know much about AI will be quite apprehensive about this.
View on Reddit #85394641

c0verf1re@reddit

Hmm host for my ARK server. Thx Nvidia! Everyone’s invited!
View on Reddit #85393812

magpieswooper@reddit

Up the catalytic converters business
View on Reddit #85393148

NekoHikari@reddit

This will requires safety and order of the society. in this economy? lol
View on Reddit #85392699

jazir55@reddit

Hear me out now, *buy fucking solar panels and layer them all over a fucking desert*. WE HAVE TONS OF THEM. Literally if you want to keep it in the US, go to Musk (LMFAO) and get solar panels from him, or do the actually intelligent thing and buy them cheap af en masse from China. This is an immediately solvable problem to anyone with a brain. Anyone with their checkbooks could find a supplier who can lay that down *fast* and get capacity up almost instantly. It's the fucking desert, there are no nimby's. If they're already talking about decentralizing the compute like this, then just make a fucking data center where you can get infinite solar energy. There is already an existing solution to this problem that can be set up immediately.
View on Reddit #85391726

eat_my_ass_n_balls@reddit

I can’t wait for this to go hilariously tits up
View on Reddit #85390149

BringTea_666@reddit

Sounds like someone saw end product (house electricity) and though you could just max them out without taking into account how grid operates. If you max out every house then local grid fails. simple as. They are basically hitting the same problem EVs have. Normal houses eat around 1-3kw an hour. But EVs take like 10-20kw to charge. If everyone has EV and they come home plug it in and then suddenly instead of say 100 homes eating 300kw ccu you suddeny have 100 homes eating 2 megawats which obviously grid won't handle.
View on Reddit #85390005

JazzlikeLeave5530@reddit

lol wild that these people propose corporations leeching off people and giving them scraps while they reap a majority of the reward as a *positive.*
View on Reddit #85389705

No_Success3928@reddit

I volunteer to host :P
View on Reddit #85389471

SpaceToaster@reddit

Yes because putting more pressure on an already strained grid, where rolling blackouts and brownouts are becoming more and more common, in areas designed for residential power capacity not commercial, has totally “solved” the power issue.
View on Reddit #85388742

datbackup@reddit

tfw you wanted to centralize your compute but your shitty aging power infrastructure makes it necessary to decentralize
View on Reddit #85388636

Zissuo@reddit

And some people worry about copper wire being stolen from homes
View on Reddit #85388581

Ok-Measurement-1575@reddit

I always suspected this is what ubi would look like. 
View on Reddit #85387576

Herr_Drosselmeyer@reddit

It's complete nonsense.
View on Reddit #85335335

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I agree. But wouldn't be surprised if they started doing a similar thing with businesses or something. Might be easier to pay a bunch of office buildings to keep a server room in their buildings for a small set of racks. Probably easier and faster than going through the approval process and building power and infrastructure for proper data centers. Also maybe cheap hardware for us when they go bankrupt, lol
View on Reddit #85336012

crantob@reddit

Better security, faster interconnects and lower maintenance costs possible siting small datacenters near available power stations.
View on Reddit #85386755

eli_pizza@reddit

The premise doesn't even sound right. There ain't much extra grid capacity where a bunch of homes and business are either.
View on Reddit #85355726

Torodaddy@reddit

Its too costly to maintain thousands of nodes at indiviual homes, whos driving out there? What happens when they go obsolete? Its just not worthwile to do things like this
View on Reddit #85340909

ITHETRUESTREPAIRMAN@reddit

The fact that he mentions Pulte homes leads me to think the young Bill Pulte is involved. He’s basically a grifter IMO.
View on Reddit #85344663

MMalficia@reddit

i live in Rural WI this stuff is already big here. between paying farmers to host wind turbines and solar panels + power walls ... instead of crops ... and they are lookin into ways to gather the gasses from settling pits on production farms (volume cow poo is big business). its only a matter of time before corps find a way to get this into the cities. since heat pumps and the like (like you see on the sides of asian housing) just dont cut it here with our winters and summers.
View on Reddit #85386283

psycoee@reddit

Even if you figure out the theft issue (which is doable in theory), the real problem is that residential electricity costs and Internet access costs are astronomical compared to what you pay in a data center. And that's apart from the obvious zoning issues.
View on Reddit #85382672

Consistent_Maize1915@reddit

That's it, discounted energy and free 20mbps wifi?... No
View on Reddit #85382226

PigSlam@reddit

Wait till you hear how much cars are worth on the open market. Literally all of them get stolen, right??
View on Reddit #85382112

chensium@reddit

"Oh oops, some burglar seems have stolen your $500k server rack for the 3rd time this month.  I dunno what's goin on, but you're free to install a new replacement anytime.  Don't mind the new Ferrari in the driveway."
View on Reddit #85381478

gurilagarden@reddit

Stupid pipe-dream. Not even worth entertaining. If this every actually came to fruition, I, and many of us, would immediately pivot to a life of crime. The whole concept wouldn't last a single residential neighborhood. They'd get cleaned out in a week. You'd need full-time armed guards, and truthfully, considering the value in just one of those racks, it would be trivial to bribe everyone involved. Stupid.
View on Reddit #85381085

EarlMarshal@reddit

I wouldn't want to live in such a home. That cannot be good for your health.
View on Reddit #85364345

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

There's a lot of reasons this is a dumb idea, but this one is new. Why would this be bad for your health?
View on Reddit #85373126

EarlMarshal@reddit

Never heard of people living near data center getting sick?
View on Reddit #85378264

Choperello@reddit

... residential power grids aren't built assuming every home is going to be drawing it's maximum peak of 200A 24/7 ...
View on Reddit #85377851

ArchdukeofHyperbole@reddit

With all that compute on a unit, one could easily attach a camera and robot arm to ID and the slap the thief super hard 
View on Reddit #85376512

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I'm okay being a part of that future
View on Reddit #85377104

HappyContact6301@reddit

Many of these ‘dump’ idea attracts tons of investments. It is not entirely stupid, however, we know that 200A is highly oversubcribed - we know this since people install EV chargers. And it does not solve the overall availability of electricity either, neither can they use solar + battery to power it since battery capacity is too small to buffer solar at peak production (due to cost) and GPU is capital investment that must 24/7. You of course have the same limitations as any hyperscaler has with slow and unreliable broadband hookup. At a minimum, it will bring lots of attention to SPAN. It is in fact a sweet panel solutions - just not a solution that is particularly useful beyond the coolness factor when considered over price.
View on Reddit #85376857

boomskats@reddit

kinda dystopian isn't it
View on Reddit #85376378

my_name_isnt_clever@reddit

These posts in LinkedInese are 10x more grating to me than any AI slop phrase. At least the chatbots have the excuse of not being self aware.
View on Reddit #85373982

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I was looking for a job for a while in the past year. Best part of finding one was deleting LinkedIn.
View on Reddit #85374744

my_name_isnt_clever@reddit

Just like the best part of X happening was deleting Twitter.
View on Reddit #85375012

prestodigitarium@reddit

All I’m getting out of this is that Span’s getting desperate to ride the AI hype wave, because their main business sucks.
View on Reddit #85374788

f5alcon@reddit

The people doing this will be rich in gated neighborhoods with 24 hour security
View on Reddit #85357819

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Eh maybe. What incentive do they have to do it? Not going to mess up the look of their house for $50/mo
View on Reddit #85374623

sav2880@reddit

If they’re paying off my house, and paying all of the electric bill and cooling, and giving me access to a chunk of that bandwidth, I’m listening. I would say the odds of this happening are slim but considering a data center cost, maybe it’s not?
View on Reddit #85354752

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I'm just hoping they get funding for it, put one at my house and go out of business the next day.
View on Reddit #85373924

PhotographerUSA@reddit

How would that survive in weather conditions? Sounds like fake news to me.
View on Reddit #85373852

onephn@reddit

Guys don't tell them until it's too late maybe we can get cheap gpus this way.....
View on Reddit #85362714

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Or at least collect them when the bubble pops and this place goes out of business! It's really just cleaning up the neighborhood at that point.
View on Reddit #85373173

Obvious_Tree3605@reddit

Nah dog. If they’re gonna put something on my house it’s going to be my own personal AI cloud and I’ll let them use any unused computer capacity and they can pay the electricity.
View on Reddit #85366277

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

They might be down for this, given you limit your usage to some reasonable amount. Or maybe they'd give you a discount for tokens on the distributed system or something.
View on Reddit #85373089

CryptographerLow6360@reddit

gpt wrote his tweet
View on Reddit #85367582

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

For sure
View on Reddit #85372915

Gipetto@reddit

what I don't need is the extra contention for network resources in my neighborhood. ISPs are shitty enough as it is, they'll no doubt use this as an excuse to do something egregious.
View on Reddit #85370987

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Personally I'd hope it would accelerate fiber deployment.. but that's probably wishful thinking..
View on Reddit #85372890

GokuMK@reddit

Make smaller version in form if electric heater. In EU heating is so expensive that many people had to lower their quality of life to afford it, crime is low.  Of course there is an issue - what in the summer?
View on Reddit #85371126

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I guess leave it outside in the summer?
View on Reddit #85372846

ShakataGaNai@reddit

Ignoring the theft and .... multiple issues of this. This wont work from a power grid perspective. Just because the houses are wired for 48kw, does not mean they are expected to draw that much. \#1 - 80% rule. Nothing in your house can draw more than 80% of full load. So that 48kw peak is actually 38kw. \#2 - Power companies don't provide megawatts of power capacity to every neighborhood because every house has X amount of power it \*might\* pull. That would be hugely expensive and a waste 99.9999% of the time. They know how much power the average home draws even at peak (eg AC in the middle of summer) and plans for that plus some contingency. \#3 - The same is true for many steps up the line. The transformers, the power lines, etc. They aren't sized for 100% consumption of 100% of homes. \#4 - Unless the houses are new, they may very well not have 200amp service. Most of the houses in my suburban bay area location have 100 amps. \#5 - How does solar come into play? Lets just assume I have solar and NEMS1/2. Right now I get credit for extra solar, with this plan that would be consumed by the on-site nodes. Now I don't get any credit? Are you going to pay me RETAIL prices for electricity? Because that's the only thing I'd accept. And residential retail electrical costs are depressingly much higher than what industrial users (datacenters) typically pay. Oh and this shit isn't going to be in my garage heating it up. So... it'll be cool just sitting outside? For years on end? Without any maintenance? In 100F+ heat before the GPU even turns on? Oh double and. So everyday during the times my AC is cranking or at night when my EV is charging, this thing can't operate because there isn't the power budget. So during the summer it can run for.... 3 hours a day?
View on Reddit #85371513

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

All good points, lol. I think part of the purpose of going this way is to put the power/grid issues on municipalities instead dealing with it themselves like they'd have to in a data center deal.
View on Reddit #85372808

2Norn@reddit

i'll do it gladly hell i'll let you guys put it in the house and guard it myself
View on Reddit #85372043

MotokoAGI@reddit

Assuming this is true, there are lots of wealthy neighborhoods were theft will not be much of a crime.
View on Reddit #85371656

Polite_Jello_377@reddit

Good luck trying to cool that sitting next to the ac condenser 😄
View on Reddit #85371477

detached-admin@reddit

Discounted electricity and internet doesn't sound like appropriate compensation if they are going to use my backyard to solve world's biggest problems 1/5th cheaper and 6x faster.
View on Reddit #85368758

WithoutReason1729@reddit

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View on Reddit #85367649

Striking_Present8560@reddit

Here is my take. If they give me free tokens from those gpus or their network i would let them install anything.
View on Reddit #85362643

LagOps91@reddit

you know how close to the bubble popping you are by how crazy the ideas and naratives become. this concept is entirely delusional.
View on Reddit #85360839

toptier4093@reddit

I'd love a money tree right next to my house! Hopefully it'll regrow some of its GPUs after I very accidentally pull some off.
View on Reddit #85357577

toptier4093@reddit

Time to very conveniently break out of my house through the wall that hosts 16 Blackwell GPUs on the other side of it.
View on Reddit #85357033

EugenePopcorn@reddit

All I'm hearing is that we're reaching market saturation on overpriced datacenter GPUs. Nvidia and their investors are desperate to retain their quarterly sales, but they will also go to incredible lengths to prevent their products from being freely resold which may destroy the artificially high value of them as assets which, for financial reasons, need to be depreciated over the course of now 6 whole years.
View on Reddit #85356898

Unlucky_Milk_4323@reddit

"I'd love to!" .. "wait .. someone stole WHAT?"
View on Reddit #85355993

ris_rakib_me@reddit

Let me host them all i need is you pay the bill rent and access to one gpu
View on Reddit #85355923

Numerous-Annual420@reddit

These neighborhoods also have a lot of roof space to spare. Many new neighborhoods already implement neighborhood power cooperatives using only a reaction of the roof space. Combining this with a fully built out solar and wind cooperative could really pay. In the newer mega developments, they could justify neighborhood power stations.
View on Reddit #85355545

gpalmorejr@reddit

Bigger issue is that electrical engineering of grid systems accounts for "diversity of loads" meaning, you can actually load your panle more than 200A but *usually don't because you don't often turn on literally ever single thing in your house on at the same time while also using a vacuum and such. A neighborhood may have transformers and conductors sized for 25% of the capability of the panels in a neighborhood because the chances of every house in a neighorhood using their vacuums, stoves, microwave, water heaters, AC, etc. simultaneously is basically nil. But if they start having all their panels maxed out by micro-datacenters.... Then the upstream equipment will be undersized and required upgrading...... Which is the current issue with sticking a 100MW datacenter in a small town that uses <100MW total by itself.... So this isn't going to fly. The power companies with nip this in the bud before the grid comes down or it costs billions in sudden repairs and upgrade that they don't have to spend.
View on Reddit #85355276

BestSentence4868@reddit

How are they going to connect network lmao. Inb4 starlight. These nodes need gigabit at minimum. something tells me a the average home broadband connection won't suffice
View on Reddit #85355110

Hefty_Development813@reddit

Yea this is truly nuts, 16 rtx pro 6000 and 3tb ram is probably more than many of the homes
View on Reddit #85353451

03captain23@reddit

Typical HVAC units cost what $5k? And what $500+ in scrap value? Putting a $10k device in everyone's backyard isn't that far off. Telecom people do this all the time and there's EV chargers everywhere and are very expensive. The solution is to shut down the ability to scrap metals unless you're a company and do X volume. Also push prosecuting those receiving the stolen goods without proper identification like pawn shops do.
View on Reddit #85347809

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Gonna be worth a lot more than 10k. They said 3TB of RAM + 16 RTX 6000s among other things. Good point about scrapping.. Hard to tell what percent is people stealing and what percent is doing it for a bit of money. The scrappers where I live now don't usually steal anything, they just cruise neighborhoods taking trash with scrap value.
View on Reddit #85349321

03captain23@reddit

I've learned to never trust any of this stuff they spit out. The whole thing sounds like VC fluff trying to get money. It makes sense dumping 10-20k boxes in people's yards to enhance everything, have better edge and solid plan to help with heat issues. The reality is they'll be limited to 32-60a depending if they want it hardwired or not. Id bet 32a/240v which is 7.6kw. This is normal EV charger limits and allows them to just have a 50a plug on the house then they can easily come and take it away if needed. Rtx6000 is 600w so I could see 8 of them with everything else, all packaged with fans and plenty of headroom. Still north of 50k but long term I'm betting the cost will drop while power/heat remains the issue. I really wonder how these 50k+ EV chargers are all just sitting around full of copper everywhere. They have to have a shutoff button by law so easy to turn off power and rip out
View on Reddit #85352131

TyrellCo@reddit

One answer is antitheft and anti tamper technologies. They become unusable if they are removed or if it’s opened. Maybe it physically snaps in half or something
View on Reddit #85346643

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

That works, but not against vandalism. I bet if some of the AI haters knew they could drill into a box and do 200k of damage in 5 minutes they'd do it. To me it's wild they want these outside at all..
View on Reddit #85349654

TyrellCo@reddit

Right that part doesn’t make sense put it in the basement or attic
View on Reddit #85351324

autonomousdev_@reddit

ran a small mvp on a shared vps for 3 months, zero issues. people way overthink security til they get burned. if youre not storing pii or api keys just ship it. worry about the paranoia later when you actually got users to protect.
View on Reddit #85350732

Bureaucromancer@reddit

Lots of bitching in this thread... but while yeah, strapping them to the side of residences is stupid... look at the sub we're in. There's a LOT to be said for distributing inference and not a whole lot that makes it naturally require a true data centre.
View on Reddit #85349682

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I think most people here like the Local part of LoclaLLaMA because they own the Local part, not because it's close by.
View on Reddit #85349949

Lucivius@reddit

200 amps connection for a house? That is ridiculous. I can understand that you have long grid connection queues if they dimension residential homes with such a connection.
View on Reddit #85342868

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I think 200A is standard for new houses nowadays? Probably not for older houses though.
View on Reddit #85349836

ailee43@reddit

ill sign up if you both pay for the electricity, and give me some card time.
View on Reddit #85345551

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

And I want the hardware unlocked if/when you go out of business
View on Reddit #85349693

Caffdy@reddit

how does their calculations work? 48kW a day of energy capacity? is that daily? weekly? on 120 or 240V?
View on Reddit #85345094

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Unclear, but maybe 240 since it's by the condenser?
View on Reddit #85349546

Elegant_AIDS@reddit

Shit like that doesnt happen everywhere bro, i never met anyone who had their cat stolen
View on Reddit #85347149

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Fair. What if the cat was worth 200k though?
View on Reddit #85349432

mechasquare@reddit

How about no, to another potential fire hazard at your house. This is a grey area situation and I can tell you (used to work for the largest grid operator in texas) that load management has to be projected years out for a reason. Just slapping more load on to houses are is NOT a good idea, especially if the house is not on something redundant like a spot network
View on Reddit #85347634

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

For sure, and I think they want to do this so they can get around the load management/power load questions and just throw it on the municipality to deal with. Definitely not great.
View on Reddit #85349399

QING-CHARLES@reddit

https://preview.redd.it/4io47prbbjzg1.png?width=684&format=png&auto=webp&s=c89d798e0759e12797a3769d20e287c5c1083663 This is the rendering of it.
View on Reddit #85336995

sp9002@reddit

oh nice it's got the logo so you know it's the box you want to steal with a quarter million dollars of consumer gpus in it
View on Reddit #85340876

QING-CHARLES@reddit

I'm drilling in through the back and attaching it to my local network and listing it on runpod :p
View on Reddit #85348578

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

That would look good in my bathroom
View on Reddit #85337155

Foreign_Risk_2031@reddit

I used to mine litecoin in the winter to heat the house for free
View on Reddit #85336004

Perfect-Campaign9551@reddit

how is that free? You still pay for that electricity..
View on Reddit #85345674

Foreign_Risk_2031@reddit

I made money for mining- it paid for electricity and a couple extra dollars. I didn’t have to pay out of pocket each month. Summer was stupid and I had to put it in the garage.
View on Reddit #85345760

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I don't do it on purpose, but when I shut the door to my office in the winter while gaming, it definitely heats it up pretty well. Honestly maybe even more efficient than my actual heater (I have garbage electric heat) Sucks for hot climates though.
View on Reddit #85336096

Rasekov@reddit

Even if this bypasses the grid interconnection issue datacenter rollouts are limited by overall power generation(not only but a huge factor), moving the HW into normal homes with less efficient temperature control wont fix much. At best it might help hide the issue from a legislature point of view(cant ban the datacenter if it's just a bunch or racks all over the city) but unless the plan is to include a solar installation or just keep going until brownouts starts I dont see how this helps. At worst it increases power demand due to the worse cooling capacity of normal home AC vs a proper industrial solution and a 100 other small losses in efficiency that would add up. At least with a properly built datacenter you can add your own electricity generation or negotiate direct deals with power plants. This did kind of work with bitcoin mining because at it's peak the electricity consumption was provably around an order of magnitude lower than the planned datacenters for AI.
View on Reddit #85340772

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I think the point for them is to get around legislation. If residential power starts becoming a problem, that makes the local municipality/power company fix it instead of it being seen as a datacenter owner/operator problem. If I was in local government, I'd ban or regulate stuff like this in favor of large data centers with more efficiency gains because token/W would definitely be better in data center.
View on Reddit #85341197

Southern-Chain-6485@reddit

If I was in local government, I'd use it as an opportunity to improve the local grid: "This project is allowed in my town, but since this is going to cause brownouts, they first need to invest in the local substations and powerlines. Now hurry and get to it before the bubble bursts!"
View on Reddit #85344163

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Lol, yes, exactly. My guess is they will not put anything in your town and go somewhere they can get away with it without investing..
View on Reddit #85344445

postitnote@reddit

It still makes more sense to make more efficient inference chips so you can retrofit old datacenters to fit more capacity.
View on Reddit #85344366

YT_Brian@reddit

Fucking stupid but kinda sorta feasible if you squint. It really depends where you live, how swscure the container is, how much they are paying you to cover electric costs, waivers so any damage isn't paid for by the property owner it is parked on along with wtf they as the home owners get out of it. Constant free access as ahighh paying asccount but it is free? X amount over electrical costs per week/month? In a very low crime area with it bring inside of a secured transport metal container with a few big ol' locks on it and it could be perfectly safe. Doing this in a suburb is iffy and in a city is flat out stupid.
View on Reddit #85343199

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

O jeez.. Didn't think about liability.. Don't want to be bankrupt if you're kid hits the 200k compute module with your car or something..
View on Reddit #85344193

MikusR@reddit

> There are problems with people stealing catalytic converters off people's cars Which shithole country has that problem?
View on Reddit #85337611

Quartich@reddit

What country are you in? Catalytic converter theft is a problem in the US, Canada, Mexico, UK, and most of Europe. I dont know the stats outside of that sphere, but I'm guessing it happens just about everywhere with theft and cars parked outside.
View on Reddit #85343101

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Lol, some places in the US. I used to live in Chicago and it happened there. One night someone stole all of them from the fleet of geek squad vehicles in a best buy parking lot.
View on Reddit #85337839

f8tel@reddit

That "headroom" doesn't exist. Just because the service is at that level doesn't mean the power grid can support that at every house.
View on Reddit #85342997

kiwibonga@reddit

Butterfly meme Speech bubble: "Is this a business model?" Butterfly: "Ruining the system for everyone so corporations can benefit"
View on Reddit #85342055

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Lol, exactly
View on Reddit #85342358

mohelgamal@reddit

That is a pipe dream for the most part, if they want to distribute the capacity, a more efficient way to do it would be to go to businesses that use AI and deploy AI clusters for them locally, for example, a law firm would have it is ow Claude server rant and then the companies can use their extra processing capacity for training models and what not on off business hours. Another way would be to subside deployment of rooftop solar to houses, and have the extra generation capacity exported to the grid where they can use utility scale batteries to store during the day and consume at night. But the most efficient way is to do what they are doing right now, which is go to areas with widely available cheap land in abandoned farms (of which millions of acres exist in the US) and build a solar farm next to the datacenter. Either way they have to spend alot more on energy generation.
View on Reddit #85341809

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I agree about using businesses. Even if they aren't going to use the computer, much easier to rent a little server room than to keep everything outside and attached to people's houses.. I think the whole reason they would do it this way is so they don't have to be responsible for power generation. It's easy to see what power a data center is using, but not so much if the same compute is distributed across 1000 homes/businesses.
View on Reddit #85342308

No_Conversation9561@reddit

I’m sick of these techfluencers.
View on Reddit #85342251

EcstaticImport@reddit

It’s a great idea - will make having all this last generations nvidia gear someone else’s problem and you won’t have to dispose of it either!! Oh you only got a Blackwell local inference cluster? you only get a lower rebate rate now 😕
View on Reddit #85339547

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I mean, I'm happy to have some last gen nvidia gear around my house when the bubble pops and they go out of business, haha.
View on Reddit #85339780

EcstaticImport@reddit

Will you be on the hook for it thou’?
View on Reddit #85341554

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Yeah, hard to say. I don't think a lot of people would be 'investing' in these for a later payback. I certainly wouldn't. If they want to put it in for free and give me discounted internet and power, I'm down, but I'm not going to be paying for the hardware upfront hoping it'll pay off after 10 years.
View on Reddit #85342098

Pure_Ad_147@reddit

Grids are already struggling with supporting EV charging in high density areas (like CA) so I don't see this happening as easily as they outline. (i.e. it will pull high/max load continuously while a house isn't using electricity so it would be an even larger strain than EV nighttime charging, at scale). I can empathize with theft concerns as well. I had a professional crew of 15 thieves in pickup trucks cut through our garage door with chainsaws to steal $2000 worth of tools during a renovation in the bay area (all on camera, no one caught). Another time someone cut through live mains to steal the copper wiring outside of the house (CA requires that mains panels be mounted externally for fire safety reasons)....if these things are priced closer to $10k per rig, I give it \~1 month before they disappear and are melted down for copper in CA, where pulte has a focus.
View on Reddit #85340936

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Haha, yeah.. Definitely not a very practical idea. Also the bay area is wild. Jeez. I used to live in Chicago, which could get bad at times, but nothing like that. Jeez. With the specs they're talking about, it'll be closer to 200k/rig than 10k/rig. Not sure how much of that is valuable from a metal harvesting perspective. With all the anti-AI sentiment going around these days vandalism is also a concern. Doesn't take much creativity to figure out how to damage something like that.
View on Reddit #85341711

m3kw@reddit

to the OP, do you see people constantly stealing stuff from everyone's house? Same issue with cars, AC, even inside the house.
View on Reddit #85340417

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Constantly is a stretch, but it definitely happens. Used to live in Chicago and it was pretty common for catalytic converters to get stolen. Also have heard of people ripping out cabling outside peoples houses to sell for the copper. If people found out what these were and they weren't locked down, they definitely wouldn't last long, lol
View on Reddit #85340859

m3kw@reddit

Likely won't put them in high risk hood areas near chicago slums
View on Reddit #85341367

andymaclean19@reddit

LMAO. That's something like £70k of stuff they're going to strap to the outside of a residential house is it not? Absolutely they will get stolen.
View on Reddit #85340900

Torodaddy@reddit

Scams
View on Reddit #85340573

drizdar@reddit

Don't forget info-sec. What happens if you're processing key data on one of these things and it gets stolen?
View on Reddit #85340380

ThePensiveE@reddit

Even if not stolen, there's somebody paying for it. If all these new homes in one subdivision are raising all the costs for everyone in surrounding areas, they might need to worry about more than theft.
View on Reddit #85340322

m3kw@reddit

How bout they pay for part of your mortgage to use your land
View on Reddit #85340319

doctorfiend@reddit

This idea is so bad I have to assume it was conceived in a fit of AI psychosis
View on Reddit #85340262

m3kw@reddit

can probably use some kind of efuse/supply chain type security that does verifications. To migitate, but those can be by passed. They will make it harder for sure if they do, lie how apple does with their phones when stolen.
View on Reddit #85340197

pmttyji@reddit

>There are problems with people stealing catalytic converters off people's cars and now they want to put a rack outside your house!? Is NVIDIA gonna do this worldwide? **Asking for a friend**
View on Reddit #85338788

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Also for a friend: how carefully are they going to try and collect them when Span goes out of business when the bubble pops?
View on Reddit #85340075

Exciting-Engineer646@reddit

Span’s other products essentially support energy monitoring and VPPs. Are they going to VPP the mini data centers? Because I can’t really send a job to a node that might randomly get killed because someone turns on their AC.
View on Reddit #85339485

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Could be.. My guess is at least a battery big enough to migrate jobs to another node on battery power if power becomes an issue?
View on Reddit #85339940

RoomyRoots@reddit

r/LinkedInLunatics
View on Reddit #85339457

SocialDeviance@reddit

Is this even real tho?  The "it's not x, it's not y. It's z" is typical ai stuff
View on Reddit #85338814

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Yeah, might not be. Still an interesting idea, though.
View on Reddit #85339293

slavetothesound@reddit

I’d consider letting them put it in my utility room if they finally got a fast fiber connection out to my house, throw in a free ai subscription, and make my electricity free.
View on Reddit #85338871

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Yeah, I'd be down if they gave me priority to use the local compute for whatever I want. Added bonus that I have the hardware if they ever go out of business, haha. Although, my guess is that everything would be hardware locked, so you couldn't use it without their cooperation.
View on Reddit #85339054

cleverusernametry@reddit

F the LinkedIn speak generated by chatgpt
View on Reddit #85338909

magic-one@reddit

You know how cities suffer from brownouts when too many people use AC at the same time? Imagine even higher usage, and not just when it’s hot.
View on Reddit #85338210

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Yeah, if it scaled enough, that could be a problem Part of the goal for them seems to be getting around regulation for data centers. It's much harder to police/regulate these things on random houses throughout a city than to regulate a single datacenter project.
View on Reddit #85338899

Baphaddon@reddit

Wouldn’t you need a very strong fiber optics network for this at very least?
View on Reddit #85338309

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Supposedly, they would discount your internet as part of the deal. Would love to have someone subsidize fiber installation at my house if it didn't have it!
View on Reddit #85338495

QuinQuix@reddit

It's almost poetic how well it *could* work if people didn't steal though. How beatiful is the idea of not using gas or but AI compute units to heat your house. If you can *use* the waste heat that's an insane upgrade in terms of efficiency.
View on Reddit #85338045

ganhedd0@reddit

I, for one, look forward to the glut of "repurposed" RTX 6000s and server parts that will follow this decision.
View on Reddit #85338021

shadowmage666@reddit

That will never happen
View on Reddit #85337954

old_flying_fart@reddit

The local substation is sized for most homes using 1 to 3 kw most hours. When you put these on all the homes, you overwhelm the local substation. There is a finite amount of electical capacity in this socuntry, and TANSTAAFL.
View on Reddit #85337164

a_beautiful_rhind@reddit

How do I sign up? I get use of a couple of GPUs, pay my electricity and some nominal fee. They can even cut in 240v. Highly doubt this is actually viable though.
View on Reddit #85336314

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

My thing is why would they do it outside residential properties when they could put them inside commercial ones instead? Some bird makes a nest in there and does 200k of damage, lol
View on Reddit #85336490

a_beautiful_rhind@reddit

I assume its not just gonna sit as a bare rack but with some kind of enclosure you can't mess with.
View on Reddit #85336698

YouParticular8085@reddit

I wish I could afford just one RTX Pro for my own use.
View on Reddit #85336589

arthor@reddit

too bad rtx 6k don’t have fuckin nv link. woulda been a great idea if they weren’t too busy fucking over consumer with trash spec hardware options 
View on Reddit #85336502

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I don't think nv link is going to be their biggest problem, haha
View on Reddit #85336546

FullyAutomatedSpace@reddit

Bandwidth would suck
View on Reddit #85336306

Flashy_Squirrel4745@reddit

The hardware is most possibly locked down, which only runs code signed by NVIDIA so it's useless if you stole it trying to run other things.
View on Reddit #85336195

ResidentPositive4122@reddit

So, where do you have those cheap pro6000 from? Ah, they fell off a ... wall :)
View on Reddit #85335565

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

ikr... The neighbor just had some hanging around..
View on Reddit #85336155

throw_me_away3478@reddit

Sorry honey, we cant run the dishwasher because our mini AI datacenter is using all of our panel capacity.
View on Reddit #85336150

Dany0@reddit

Sorry but this text was clearly ai generated. Why do you read it let alone trust anything they say
View on Reddit #85335156

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

I don't 'trust' it, lol, but it's an interesting idea. Not practical maybe, but interesting. Would definitely be open to having it at my place if they gave me priority access/paid for the power it uses.
View on Reddit #85335826

hejj@reddit

Are they planning to pay my electric bill too?
View on Reddit #85335168

martin_xs6@reddit (OP)

Supposedly you get a discount/reimbursement?
View on Reddit #85335618