What’s up the recent hate of 4x4 and AWD online ive been seeing lately?

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jrileyy229@reddit

It's fine... Most people just do not have any of the use cases you just listed

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AWD or full time 4WD like my 4runner is safer, and anybody saying otherwise is an idiot. Yes, it costs more, weighs more, has more parts to wear out, and potentially isn't as fun to drive, but it's undeniably safer and it's laughable that idiots on here argue that it isn't or that they are such good drivers that it won't matter for them.

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MrSNoopy1611@reddit

but what excatly makes them safer? Do you have any evidence of that and if so, pls link it, i am interested in your statement.

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PawPawsLilStinker@reddit

It's not. Just because people have real world experiences using 4hi when roads are slick and that makes a pick up truck much more controlable when steering and accelerating. That isn't a study and didn't actually happen unless there is a study. Only a study can validate. Nothing happens unless it is in a study and then it all happened retroactively

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Wake95@reddit

Dude, it's fucking intuitive. Are you buying the shittiest, baldest tires for your car? Why not? Do you intuitively know that more traction is safer than less traction, or did you have to read a study to tell you to not have bald tires on your car? Or did your tires get old and lose traction and then you bought new ones and said, "Wow, I have so much more traction now!"? Better write that up in a study.

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eugenesbluegenes@reddit

Based on the story, I guess so OP can accelerate faster? Not really something generally associated with better safety though.

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Wake95@reddit

Being able to accelerate, turn or brake quicker means you can do maneuvers that you could otherwise not do. Having those capabilities is safer than not having them. Getting up to speed in dense traffic in spite of unexpected road conditions is safer than not getting up to speed.

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Wake95@reddit

I added my experience to my comment above. Have you ever gone through a wet stream without noticing it? Maybe someone left their sprinklers on at night? Maybe you drove through a car wash parking lot. If you then try to pull out in traffic as you normally would, with 2WD you'll spin the tires and have to take time to regain traction and find the limit, all while traffic is bearing down on you. AWD won't lose traction under the same circumstances.

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SailingSpark@reddit

That's not AWD helping you, that's the extra weight of the AWD system. AWD and 4WD only allow you to accelerate in slippery or low traction areas. Those systems do not help in braking or stability.

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PawPawsLilStinker@reddit

Exactly, a wet road isn't low traction

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Wake95@reddit

You really think that 150 lbs is the difference rather than having four driven wheels? How the hell did you graduate high school? Do you buy tires for your car with the worst rated traction, or do you buy tires with good traction? BTW, my 4WD V8 actually has massively more torque than the RWD V6, so it's not even apples to apples: the 4WD has tremendously more traction than the RWD.

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CBus660R@reddit

Try a RWD vehicle with a decent limited slip diff and you'll see a big difference compared to anything with an open diff. Open diff RWD will one wheel peel at the drop of a hat. The problem is manufacturers have dropped the LSD option from everything except performance cars. You used to be able to get an F-150 with an LSD, now it's either an open diff or an electronic locker. That's why my F-150 with the better transfer case lives in 4A unless I'm going off-road and switch to 4H or 4L. Put that sucker in 2H and you get 1 wheel peel while barely touching the gas in a tight turn (like when making a right on red to catch a gap in traffic).

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MrSNoopy1611@reddit

Well, my 100HP FWD shitbox only ever broke traction in winter and my Traction control kicked in to mitigate that, so take that as a counter i guess? But i was specifically asking for any evidence with links, scientifically proven. Anyone can make up a personal story or overly dramatize it because subjective is still a thing

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Raw-sick@reddit

Why don't you show us research saying it's not safer? Why do you want others to prove to you what they believe. If you feel like your fwd is safe good for you. If someone believes there AWD or 4WD is safer good for them.

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MrSNoopy1611@reddit

Have i ever said anything about a particular drivetrain being safer or not? No i havent, but someone said that AWD is plain safer, so i would like them to prove that. I dont have to prove anything because i never stated anything like that

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Happycappybara21@reddit

Yea itd be interesting to see the insurance data showing one way or another .

But I’m sure awd is a smidge safer. Is it worth the extra cost and drop in fuel efficiency? I don’t think so. But it’s a free(ish) country

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jrileyy229@reddit

Oh, I'm not with you on that one. People who buys Subarus in florida because they think AWD is safer in the rain... Not in on that notion.

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TROGDOR_X69@reddit

if you have driven them in the rain you would understand.

they dont stop better then anything else

but my impreza STi, can boogie in the rain and you dont even notice it

iv had plenty other cars that can get squirelly real fast on wet roads. even trucks esp if no weight in bed and not in 4wd are esp bad in rain lol my old chevy was the swing king LOL

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bcsublime@reddit

Better than

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Downtown_Reward_6339@reddit

Agreed. I’ve spoken to NUMEROUS people who somehow think AWD means better braking and handling.

OP is on point that it’s 2 times the traction taking off; and maybe he needs that, and it’s fine.

Many of today’s buyer have watched too many Subaru commercials and think it provides greater grip in every instance.

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JettandTheo@reddit

It does provide better breaking.

Tires are obviously the largest chunk while breaking but the awd provides more resistance to help slow vehicles.

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bcsublime@reddit

Braking

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pwdahmer@reddit

Tires are everything when braking.
It’s the only thing that contacts the road.

You can have 6 piston brembo brakes but if your tires are bald you won’t stop.

Manuals are even better. You can use the transmission gearing to slow your car and most times not even need to step on the brake once to come to a complete stop. Obviously that doesn’t apply to extreme scenarios.

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TROGDOR_X69@reddit

I worked in Subaru Sales in northeast

us salesmen would call snowflakes $$$ from god. When they started to fall down everyone would slide in their honda or Toyota car and all of sudden want AWD

instant busy season

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Downtown_Reward_6339@reddit

It’s been brilliant for marketing !

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Wake95@reddit

Because it's effective.

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Ok_Two_2604@reddit

Awd almost always is designed to understeer which, for most people, is safer than oversteering a rwd car. And also have lift oversteer than fwd if you really cook the corner and panic. Better? No. Safer for goobers? Yeah.

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blanthony80@reddit

It certainly is safer. Years ago had an A6 with Quattro here in Florida. No matter how hard it rained my tires would not lose grip in the road. Could not even spin my tires taking off at light on a wet road. Never felt safer in any vehicle since. Maybe Quattro is just superior in the AWD abilities.

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MrSNoopy1611@reddit

The problem is never acceleration, accelerating slower isnt a big problem. Stopping is the issue and afaik every car has 4 wheels and 4 brakes today regardless of AWD, FWD or RWD. Stopping in an Audi in heavy snow will probably be the same as in a BMW with the same tires. The BMW might even stop better because its lighter because no AWD

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Wake95@reddit

If you've never broken traction under acceleration on dusty or wet roads, then you don't have the experience to be speaking here. Either you drive like a snail or you haven't driven a car with any power.

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Cynyr36@reddit

Lots and lots snow driving (Minnesota, UP Michigan, back to Minnesota) over the last 25is years. All of it i fwd cars. AWD doesn't help you stop better, doesn't help you not take a corner too fast, doesn't help you see black ice. Sure it can help get you up a very steep hill in the snow or ice, but honestly it's probably not worth driving in those conditions.

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blanthony80@reddit

Not talking about snow. All vehicles will skid and slide on ice and snow if not careful. AWD will not save you if the deiver is a complete dipfuck either.

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Wake95@reddit

The definition of an idiot should be someone who thinks that having half the traction is not more dangerous than all the traction.

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CarsandTunes@reddit

99% of the time the difference in traction is meaningless.

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Bryanmsi89@reddit

Not sure about the AWD safer part. Doesn't handle or brake any better. In fact, worse due to the extra weight. Does accelerate better in slick conditions, but is this safer?

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Wake95@reddit

A hundred pounds of difference on a 3000-4000lb vehicle is not going to make a noticeable difference in braking or handling, and having traction on 4 wheels also helps handling (though can make it feel worse if you're a racer).

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waldcha@reddit

How does it help for handling? AWD does not give better traction for turns, only acceleration. If you are in a turn and find you need more traction, let off the gas. If it happens often then tires and suspension are the way to go.

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Wake95@reddit

Why do rally cars use AWD?

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Bryanmsi89@reddit

Usually its more than 100lbs, and most drivers aren't racing. Also just as many racers prefer RWD because they gain more control over oversteer (which has to still be allowed in racing AWD, somewhat reducing the safety aspect argument).

I'm not anti-awd, just not sure it is actually safer for the everyday driver.

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congteddymix@reddit

You’re obviously in a costal area that doesn’t get snow since you’re talking about a little sand on the roads causing wheel slippage. I am not sure if your just trolling, have a really bad lead foot or just misinformed but your spinning on some sand when starting from an intersection is not a need for 4wd/awd, what you need is a good set of tires and to learn how to modulate your throttle pedal.

If anything sand adds traction usually, trains use sand to add traction on rails and all of us that live in the snow belt who is not an idiot and whether they have a 2wd or 4wd generally keep some sand around for to help get them unstuck if going down icy or snow covered roads.

Sorry but your justifications just fall flat and hence the downvotes.

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DarthSwash@reddit

4 wheel drive ≠ 4 wheel stop. Its an incredibly useful feature, but it can help you get into just as many problematic situations as it will let you get out of.

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bobqzzi@reddit

"The AWD V8 4Runner never breaks traction under acceleration." There you go. That's it. That's the benefit. A rational person may argue that just means it's easier to to get up to higher speeds on a sketchy surface, so in reality less safe

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Wake95@reddit

When a bus is bearing down on you, would you rather have traction or not have traction?

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withsexyresults@reddit

I’d rather be in something that’s much faster than a 4Runner

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bobqzzi@reddit

LMAO

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Insertsociallife@reddit

If this is a frequent problem I suggest you just quit pulling out in front of buses.

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thatsonlyme312@reddit

Safety depends on the context. There is nothing that makes specific drivetrain inherently safer in daily driving. If anything, I'd argue it's less safe, considering how many people drive like maniacs in the bad weather, thinking AWD will magically help them stop or when they lose traction.

Sure, it will help you if you get stuck in the snow or mud, but this is less of a safety issue.

I'd love to hear other opinions on what makes AWD safer, because I can't think of any scenarios.

Maybe when you are really taking that corner at the absolute limit of what your tires and suspension allow, AWD would do better than the same car without AWD. But even then I'd dare take a corner faster in my old E46 over any SUV.

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Wake95@reddit

I edited my comment above to show my personal experience. It's ridiculous to think that having 2x the traction separated by many feet of pavement not being superior.

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thatsonlyme312@reddit

I see your edit. This is exactly what I meant by stating that AWD makes it less safe. It gives you a (often false) sense of security in edge case scenarios. You end up driving your car harder than you should for the road conditions.

I've had much more capable cars with both RWD and FWD and I often drive them hard, including track days. Never once was I in the situation where I've lost traction, except when it was intentional. Sure, AWD BMW would probably give me marginal advantage on the track, but again, you should not be driving that hard on the streets. If you are, you don't care about safety really. And this comes from a guy who likes to drive fast and take turns fast. When driving on public streets, you have to be ready to account for other people doing stupid things. If you're driving your car at the absolute limit, to the point that you are barely maintaining traction, you leave no room for the correction. That's inherently unsafe.

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Wake95@reddit

My main point is that they are safer for UNEXPECTED road conditions. A dirty road that is usually clean. A stream of water when it hasn't rained in weeks. Wet leaves that you can't see in the dark. AWD is safer in all of these unexpected situations.

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Practical_Taro5656@reddit

How is it safer to be able to accelerate faster in adverse conditions? That's not safer. If safety was tied to acceleration, Volvos would all be insanely fast. Safer would be being able to brake faster in adverse conditions. Incidentally, since AWD (and 4WD) adds weight, it makes your vehicle take longer to brake with everything else being equal. So AWD is less safe.

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Lumpy_Secretary_6128@reddit

Brother you have described your 4runner as 4WD, RWD, and AWD... these are very different so which is it? (We already know what it's not).

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MysticMarbles@reddit

80% of truck owners I know have never engaged 4wd, never towed, and never done anything more extreme than clipping curbs.

Now that they are getting larger still, more lethal, and taking up multiple spaces in small parking lots, yes, people are getting fed up with them.

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Playful-Job2938@reddit

They get larger to meet the bullshit emission standards. There was a law linking wheelbase to mpg.

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Tony-cums@reddit

80%? That’s low.

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titanicdiamond@reddit

I worked at a Ford dealer. Something crazy like 95% of half ton owners never tow a trailer. 3/4 and 1 to was like 80% do tow I think.

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Resident-Welcome3901@reddit

The modern half tons are too fragile to haul a trailer or carry a camper. Designed for folks who want the truck for emotional support or ego compensation, but who drive it with an empty box.

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TranslatorBoring2419@reddit

Do you live where it doesn't snow? I've never heard of someone not using 4x4

Unless it's a full time awd with 4x4 lock

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Insertsociallife@reddit

I live in Minnesota and drive a small FWD hatchback. I have wanted AWD for reasons other than drifting in parking lots exactly zero times.

FWD and snow tires is perfectly fine. AWD + snows are better, but they're not necessary.

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d0ugfirtree@reddit

I live in Minnesota

You live in a flat state with extreme road salt usage and regular winter maintenance. FWD + Snow tires doesn't fly in mountainous regions in the west.

There's no universal answer to this, it just depends on your circumstances.

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waldcha@reddit

Also in MN rocking a honda fit with snow tires. Drive for Dominos and weather only means more tips. Pass stuck trucks and subarus all the time though.

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ChemicallyAlteredVet@reddit

I live in the upper peninsula of Michigan and many times this year I’ve had to engage 4WD just to get out of our drive and to the main roads as the snow was bad this year and they just couldn’t get to us. So we would have been stuck until they could. I’m not getting stuck waiting on the city to plow us out if I can help it. We do live very rural, and it’s not a huge truck. If I lived in a big city I probably wouldn’t need it really.

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surmatt@reddit

I live in Canada go hunting and camping on crown land about 20 weekends a year, have a camper on my truck and I've used 4wd 3 times in the 4 years I've owner it.

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jnyc777@reddit

And those 3 times made it worth it !

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Glistening_rat_vulva@reddit

I live in Canada and go hunting and camping about 6 weeks a year. The 4x4 isn’t enough to get me in and out of the foothills for spring bear season so I have a 6 and a half ton winch on the front and back. I have used the 4wd more than three times this month.

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TranslatorBoring2419@reddit

Cool

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K_Linkmaster@reddit

Dude people grow up with snow and one wheel wonder rwd cars. I didn't use 4wd because I didn't have it. It's not a requirement to survive up north, but fuck me does it help. Life is way easier, but again, not needed.

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tigress666@reddit

My husband’s awd Audi is going to handle a lot better in the snow than a 4wd truck. There are plenty of cars with awd, you don’t need a truck for that.

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After_Web3201@reddit

Reading this I wish I had thought to get an Audi instead of my Ram

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UnderTheFrozenSky@reddit

Where I live you tend to get at least one 18-24 inch snowfall and year. Most of time we can get our Subaru through the snow but having a 4WD truck ensures you're not getting snowed in.

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CR123CR123CR@reddit

Depends on how deep that snow is xD

On ice however, I would hope so. Audi's while schtick is good handling/high power cars

Trucks aren't well known for good handling characteristics even on dry pavement. You don't see folks running the Nurburgring in a GMC 1500 right.

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TranslatorBoring2419@reddit

Cool?

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SatanVapesOn666W@reddit

95% of the trucks in Reston virgins haven't so much as touched dirt let alone engaged 4x4. If it snows, they work from home.

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SkeletorsAlt@reddit

I could see it. I’m in the country in central Ohio and I need true 4WD, center diff locked, about once every three years.

If I lived in the exact same climate, but in a well maintained suburb, I would probably never touch 4x4. How much of the country does that describe?

My access to local (private) ORV trails has ended, so I’m in the process of getting both my Toyota 4x4s ready for sale.

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FireBlazer27@reddit

Literally everyone I know who has a 4x4 truck has engaged 4x4 and towed/hauled with it at least once in the past year

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SatanVapesOn666W@reddit

Oh we're doing anecdotes? Literally noone I know who has a 4x4 truck has engaged 4x4 and towed/hauled with it at least once in the past year. They are all pavement princesses who shuttle Timmy to hockey practice so daddy doesn't have to drive moms audi.

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AuburnSpeedster@reddit

I live in Michigan, and have a 100 foot inclined driveway. I use AWD quite a bit.

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TheReaperSovereign@reddit

Online car enthusiasts only like one type of car. Rwd, manual, etc

The idea someone could enjoy anything else is beyond most of them

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Kyle_2099@reddit

This has nothing to do with "car enthusiasts" and everything to do with not wanting to get ran over and killed at a crosswalk by someone who can't see me below the 7 foot high hood of their new CHEVY MANDORADO XL500-XL as they drive home from their email job.

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Mr-Zappy@reddit

We’re talking about AWD here, which you can get in a Prius or Camry, not necessarily just giant trucks/SUVs.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

I've never come across anyone mad that a camry has AWD. There'd be no reason to, you can't even tell.

The hate is for the big dumbass american trucks that cause problems for everyone except the driver.

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Various-Gazelle4713@reddit

Which has nothing to do with 4x4 and AWD. Completely different issue and topic.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

No it's the same thing. For a while we were calling them "sport utility vehicles".

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SatanVapesOn666W@reddit

Except AWD has contributed to the growing size and weight of cars, and for the average consumer, it only became mainstream through lifted crossovers and SUVs, which express the exact same issue the person you are replying to is talking about. The average person doesn't buy a practical car, they get something much more dangerous, effectively just for clout and worse MPG. Enough studies have been done showing most people buy more car than they need, and the growing size of cars has dramatically increased pedestrian fatality rates, which should have declined over the past 20 years instead of skyrocketing

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Rare-One1047@reddit

I'd guess well over 50% of the awd cars on the road around me are crossovers or suvs. In the arizona desert it might make sense, but in hilly new england it's pretty dumb not to get an awd car, especially if you have a job where you can't stay home due to weather.

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Kind-Crab4230@reddit

AWD is bad because trucks are tall?

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Kyle_2099@reddit

I've said nothing about AWD. I'm talking about 4x4s. There's a (marketing lead) distinction, 4x4 is the term used when talking about the stupid trucks, and AWD is an audi quattro etc.

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Kind-Crab4230@reddit

Ok - I misunderstood because the thread is about 4x4 and AWD, and then you said it had everything to do with the height of trucks.

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oboshoe@reddit

reddit Redditing.

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Possible_Move7894@reddit

cope and seethe, etc

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Kyle_2099@reddit

Cope and seethe about what?

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Business-Pumpkin9351@reddit

I live in a snowy state. I use 4wd a few times a year, and those few times it is the difference between getting to work and not. Replace work with hospital and I think it’s worth having

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buffcleb@reddit

Without 4x4 I can’t get up the hill our cabin is on… we tried and failed a couple times and had to get the tractor to pull us up

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ChemicallyAlteredVet@reddit

This is the reason we’ve always had 4X4. Very rural UP of Michigan, very rural. Depending on the city to dig you out will leave you stranded with no timeline. It’s not safe IMO.

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5141121@reddit

It's just ignorant gatekeeping.

4WD and AWD used to be premium features that people only added on when they "needed" them for work or play.

Now it's standard on so many vehicles, they don't feel special anymore.

And in truth, most people who live anywhere but a concrete jungle will benefit from it.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

Nobody cares if you picked the 4x4 option on a fiat panda or a subaru. It's the bigass dangerous mall crawler trucks that are the problem.

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

No fiat or Subaru came with 4x4 options. Only AWD. And on Subaru it isn’t an option, it’s the standard outside of the one RWD sports car they have.

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ridebikes365@reddit

Subaru makes lots of fwd vehicles, you ignorant North American.

They also used to make cars with selectable awd and low range. A well known example is the old GL wagons. You know, the car Travis Pastrana used to film a gymkhana movie with. Not exactly unheard of.

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

Hey dimwit, I never said Subaru has never made a fwd vehicle. I said they never came with 4x4, which is a fact. Even the GL with its selectable AWD is AWD, not 4x4. Not one single Subaru in the history of Subaru has come as a 4x4. And when I said AWD isn’t an option, it’s the standard, look at the tense I’m using “IT IS” not “IT WAS”. Aka present tense. Aka current. There are no FWD Subaru models currently being made.

You really should learn to read better.

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LyleTheEvilRabbit@reddit

Subaru has made plenty of 4WD in the early days. The Subaru Leone in 1972 was their first 4WD.

4x4 and 4WD are synonymous. Both terms are commonly used to refer to part-time systems that have a high/low range the driver can select.

You should really learn to research better.

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

Lmao the Leone was not 4wd/4x4. It was still AWD. Just a selectable AWD. There is a difference.

Sounds like you’re the one who should learn to research better.

4x4 and 4wd are also different. 4x4 is either full time 2wd or selectable 4x4 with no torque vectoring, meaning all four wheels receive equal torque and power. 4x4 will bind on dry solid ground with no slippage. 4wd is full time and all four tires receive power and torque, but with torque vectoring, you avoid binding the drive train on dry solid ground. And then to get 4x4 behavior you have to lock the center diff.

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LyleTheEvilRabbit@reddit

Try again.

It's literally in the name 'Subaru Leone 4WD Wagon' lmao

4WD just simply means to power all four wheels. Can be part-time or full-time.

4WD terminology has existed long before torque vectoring.

My understanding of four wheel driven vehicles comes from being taught by a Japanese engineer who worked for MMC and Ralliart.

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

Try again. Literally doesn’t matter what they call it. Just because you call it something doesn’t mean it is that thing. The Leone was still AWD. These are different mechanical systems with different definitions.

But even if we’re arguing semantics, it’s besides the point. The original commenter I responded to suggested Subaru had a 4x4 option. And that’s simply not true. No Subaru bas ever had a true 4x4. Whether you want to call the 60 year old models a 4wd or selectable AWD does not negate my original rebuttal of the 4x4 claim.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

While you're arguing with that guy can you explain why you said no fiats have 4x4 options? That's not true.

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Fast-Assist6601@reddit

So you just have no idea what you’re talking about

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Kyle_2099@reddit

That's not true.

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

Okay name one car in either companies line up where 4x4 is an option you can add on. I’ll wait.

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LiveMarionberry3694@reddit

I’m assuming they’re referring to older Subarus that did have a 2 speed transfer case

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

Still not a 4x4. Subaru has never made a 4x4. Even the ones with transfer cases were selectable AWD. There is a notable mechanical difference between the two.

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

4WD and AWD are absolutely beneficial for anybody even if you live in a concrete jungle. Rain, snow, oil patches, there’s all kinds of reasons to justify having full time power to all four wheels.

I think what you’re referring to is 4x4, which you shouldn’t be using on concrete. All four systems are different and should be evaluated differently.

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LiveMarionberry3694@reddit

Outside of stupid marketing by companies that don’t know what they’re talking about, 4wd and 4x4 are the same thing. A part time system with a 2 speed transfer case

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Quick_Delay_8459@reddit

There are differences. A great example to compare the two would be a jeep wrangler and a Lexus gx460. The wrangle is a solid front axle that drives around normally as RWD. You can engage 4H/L to engage the front wheels, but there’s no torque vectoring. All four wheels receive the same power and torque. And if you’re on road without slippage, you will end up binding the drivetrain. Compared to a 4wd like the gx460 that puts power and torque to all four wheels all the time but with torque vectoring to keep the drivetrain from binding. And the only way to get it to act like a true 4x4 is to lock the center diff, which will then cause binding if you try to drive it on dry concrete.

This is the way I’ve always seen 4x4 and 4wd differentiated. 4x4 as a selectable drive mode while 4wd is full time. Am I mistaken?

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LiveMarionberry3694@reddit

You’re partially right, but I think you’re mostly mixing up part-time vs full-time 4WD systems.

Wranglers are normally 2WD, and you can manually engage 4H/4L. (Some Jeeps also have a 4H Auto mode, and the Wrangler 392 is actually full-time 4WD by default since it doesn’t have a 2H mode.) Wranglers also do use brake-based traction control/torque vectoring to move power around.

>“all four wheels receive the same power and torque”

That part isn’t really accurate. When you engage 4H/4L, you’re locking the front and rear driveshafts together through the transfer case. That means the front and rear axles receive equal torque distribution, but it does not mean all four wheels get equal power.

The differentials still allow the left and right wheels on each axle to spin at different speeds. So without traction control or locking diffs, if one front wheel and one rear wheel are on slick mud while the other two have lots of traction, the wheels on the slick mud can still be the only ones spinning.

That’s where traction control, brake vectoring, and locking differentials come in. Traction control uses wheel speed sensors and braking to redirect torque to the wheels with grip. Locking diffs go a step further by mechanically forcing both wheels on an axle to rotate together. With front and rear lockers engaged, all four wheels are effectively forced to spin together. Lockers are only an option on the highest of trims and not all companies even offer both.

You’re also right about drivetrain binding, but there’s an important caveat: binding happens while turning on high-traction surfaces. In locked 4WD, the front axle naturally wants to rotate faster because the front tires travel a larger arc during turns. Locking differentials add even more complexity because the inside and outside wheels also need to rotate at different speeds.

At the end of the day, both 4x4 and 4WD systems work very similarly mechanically. They use a transfer case to send power to the front axle and include a low-range gear (4L). AWD systems are generally different because they typically don’t have a true transfer case, don’t hard-lock the front/rear driveshafts together, and don’t offer a low range.

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SatanVapesOn666W@reddit

Well when you add the perspective most Americans live in a concrete jungle and trucks are the most popular selling vehicles. It really lets you realize it's the opposite. Most people are paying extra and getting worse MPG for it while gaining no real benifit in suburban megaoplis'

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ride5k@reddit

my last few cars have had between 3 and 400 crank horsepower

fwd ain't coping with that

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Lorcan207@reddit

I've lived in northern New England for the past 30+ years. Both vehicles are AWD. I wouldn't buy a vehicle without it. A RAV4 AWD hybrid gets 40 MPG.

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Chemical-Power8042@reddit

For a truck it’s definitely more useful since it’s a RWD vehicle and if the bed is empty you have no weight on the back making traction worse. But overall 95% of trucks on the road today never leave the pavement.

Then a FWD vehicle is more than capable in the snow. If it’s that much of a concern you can go snow tires. But in areas that rarely receive snow when it does snow you’re not leaving your house. So this obsession with needing AWD doesn’t make sense

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TiFist@reddit

It depends on what your actual needs are.

80% of people live in some kind of metro area in the US. Some are going to hit occasional winter weather/unplowed streets some people will not.

I live in a no snow climate. There's a lot of that in the US. In a no snow climate, RWD is god tier and AWD/4WD is indeed not necessary. Other drivetrains may involve less ideal compromises, but it depends on the exact implementation of the car.

Sometimes AWD is beneficial for traction on dry pavement to the point where it offsets the power and cost. If you're in a fundamentally FWD vehicle and want to tow anything or carry heavy cargo, AWD is useful.

Not everyone has the same needs.

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Wemest@reddit

We have snow and when it’s fresh and slick my F150 ain’t goin nowhere without 4 WD.

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oxbison12@reddit

I think the hate is for the idiots in NY, Chicago, LA, or other major cities who never leave the city, but still feel the need for a massive 4×4 truck as their personal vehicle.

They're great if you live out in the country and have to deal with sketchy roads or need it for work. Otherwise...

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Counting-Tiles4567@reddit

People aren't likely to be hating on the number of driven wheels; they're almost certainly hating on yet another menacing truck on the roads. Overwhelmingly, trucks are a vanity purchase made on the premise of lofty aspirations. You need it for serious towing or mountain passes, sure thing, but 90+% of these fucking things are mall crawlers.

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crashin70@reddit

I like four wheel drives and all wheel drive, but I live in the south and do go mudding and playing in woods. At the same time, these damn pickup trucks are way too freaking big! I do not see the necessity of making them so large.

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PhysicsAndFinance85@reddit

It's not recent, and it's not hate. It's pointing out the obvious. The overwhelming majority of people with 4WD and AWD vehicles have no legitimate reason for having them. They just want a vehicle that's mindless to drive and takes no effort in any form of weather. In reality, what they get is a false sense of confidence. Most of the vehicles I see in ditches during snow are AWD soccer-mom-mobiles because the owner thought AWD meant they could just hop in and drive like normal.

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ThePartyLeader@reddit

I live where we have snow 8 months a year, hundreds of inches. I use snow tires.

I perfectly understand why someone in Alabama may not.

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RevolutionSalty8360@reddit

That’s always been my take. I’m in. SW WI. Not unlikely to get snow on Monday, 40 degs on Tuesday, rain Wednesday morning, drops to 20 Wed evening. Don’t get enough snow for snow tires I feel, but good tires and AWD or 4x4 are a must.

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bobqzzi@reddit

The thing is AWD only helps with acceleration and going up hill in the snow. Tires are Waaaay more important

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SatanVapesOn666W@reddit

Very true. Some cares have all wheel drive, but every car has all wheel braking.

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cowabungathunda@reddit

Same people will tell you to buy a set of snow tires and swap them out twice a year and buy a small utility trailer instead of a truck.

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glasswings363@reddit

Why wouldn't you buy a set of snow tires for your 4x4 truck and swap them out twice a year?

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cowabungathunda@reddit

I don't need them. If I lived in the mountains I probably would but I don't.

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Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit

Admittedly that is often more practical.

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cowabungathunda@reddit

Yeah it's really practical to store a trailer and an extra set of tires.

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JustAnotherFNC@reddit

Why are you so worried about what people say online?

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ChemicallyAlteredVet@reddit

99% of people will never use 4x4 or AWF it’s for posers

What? Thats stupid. There are way more than 1% of people that buy 4x4 and AWD that live in places where they use this daily for months out of the year. We live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and I wouldn’t do winter without at the very least AWD. But I’ve always had a 4x4.

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Insufferable_Entity@reddit

Anyone who lives in the Midwest can benefit from AWD a few times each winter. You don't stop faster, but are more able to direct the car where you want it to go in lower traction situations.

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stargazertony@reddit

I think this a Reddit thing as some Reddit users tend to complain about everything

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Toxiczoomer97@reddit

I have AWD and need AWD, also need a truck to go hunting fishing and homeowner stuff. I do not need a big truck however, and thankfully the Ford Maverick exists. I was driving on no winter maintenance roads in December with 7” of snow down no problem.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

The overwhelming majority of people who have a 4x4 truck don't do anything more exciting than buy groceries and commute to work.

Why is this a problem to other people? Well, consider that they're deliberately given aggressive, macho styling that causes huge front blindspots and also make pedestrian injuries much, much worse.

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oboshoe@reddit

You can always tell the reddit teens who dont have experience with them because they talk about "front blindspots". They get all their talking points from other Redditors with similar experience.

Anyone that has experience with one knows that it's a non factor.

They do have blindspots, but the blindspot is the rear when backing.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/sxrbnc/corvette_completely_hidden_by_truck_height/

The hood is too high and flat. It hides lots of things from view. It's not my fault you're in denial.

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oboshoe@reddit

Oh yes. the calm rational teen experts from fuckcars.

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glasswings363@reddit

So, what do you do about this scenario?

a child walking across the street while you're stopped

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oboshoe@reddit

I wait till they finish crossing the street. kids don't teleport in front of my hood.

1) It's pretty rare for kids to be in traffic.

2) you see them approaching,

3) In the rare event they stop in front of the vehicle, we can be assured that they didn't vanish and are still there.

4). Eventually they leave the 3ft area and you see them again - if you dont then it means they fell down in front of....in which case you get out and assist them.

This is literally never happened in my 40 years of driving.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

Its literally a video recorded by people in a truck.

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oboshoe@reddit

I wish you the best of luck in figuring out how to deal with it.

Ask your driving instructor for some tips!. He can help.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

So you don't deny that the blindspot of the truck is so bad that it completely hid the car in front from view, which means that I am correct, and you're just being a little bitch about it? Thank you.

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Klutzy-Archer-7572@reddit

Wait till you learn about semi's and firetrucks!

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Kyle_2099@reddit

Where I live both of those things are cabover designs with front blindspot mirrors. They have no hood. They also require a separate, specialist driving license in addition to a regular one.

Wait until you learn how apostrophes work.

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Klutzy-Archer-7572@reddit

yea. they dont have those everywhere.

The rest of the world just use their eyes.

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Kyle_2099@reddit

Hooded trucks are only seen in north america.

It's the rest of the world using their eyes that is the reason, because eyes can't see through solid metal.

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Klutzy-Archer-7572@reddit

If no one can see the car.

How are we talking about it and looking at it?

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LOGGATO@reddit

AWD is a marketing scheme. Most systems are 2WD until the system detects slip. You don't really notice it until you're already stuck. even then, with open diffs you are going to remain stuck!

Tires are where the money is at.

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attractivekid@reddit

I think one of the issues was when most cars were fwd/rwd, drivers were extra cautious when driving in inclement weather. With awd becoming almost standard in many cars/crossovers, we're seeing people driving here in the winter like it's the summer. Most of the cars you see spin out or ditched on the side of the roads in upstate ny and new England are awd/4x4s

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Chainsawsas70@reddit

The "hate" comes from the fact that while SOME people actually do use it to it's potential and for it's given purpose most are only going back and forth to work and Posing for pictures in the parking lot ie "The Mall Crawler" jacked up to a ridiculous height and on rubber band thin tires with crazy custom wheels and the only dirt it's ever been on is the dirt of the roadway! "But I have A 4WD" etc The rest of the crowd actually gets it out and makes it work and the "custom" paint job is done with rattle can touch up paint 😁 Not some over priced Designer job that would be ruined by breathing on it too hard 🤣

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TROGDOR_X69@reddit

trucks are 99% a personality purchase. live with that

same with my sports car I daily to an office

I acknowledge a Camry is the better daily commuter.

But life is too short to be that practical imo.

Have fun do what you enjoy.

one day you wont be able to. Do you want to look back and think Dam, i really drove a Civic for 30 years....nah not me.

dailying a STi/Gr86 combo. everyday is an adventure

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glasswings363@reddit

I agree up to the point someone decides that not having to see children walking to school is their lifestyle.

Obviously not a problem with a ute.

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charger1970440@reddit

They’re not snow skiers and they don’t drive mountain roads at high altitude that require four-wheel-drive and snow tires They probably live in a southern state not needing it so I get it nowadays people just voice their stupidity thinking they know everything and judging people what they drive

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LiesInRuins@reddit

I live on a farm, you simply couldn’t get by without a truck and 4WD.

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Awkward_Intention_15@reddit

4wd and AWD drivetrains are exceptionally useful depending on your circumstance. Its definitely great at driving off road and in different terrain. the problem lies is where people buy an awd or 4wd vehicle, but don't use it for its intended use. if you're not using 4wd in a pickup truck, it simply just becomes another series of moving parts to fail over time and on a pickup truck that's notorious for having optional 4wd with large amounts of accumulated mileage over time its not a surprise. if you're not really taking advantage of awd in a car for example and the vehicle rarely sees anything but tarmac, then all this does is wear down your tires faster.

On another note, auto makers install these features in upper trim packages to sell the vehicle for more money, but it can be quite deceptive since it tricks the buyer into thinking its a useful feature to have, Now AWD isn't always put in a car for utility, many companies design vehicles with AWD for performance applications because it allows the vehicle to take off much faster from a dead stop. Examples such as the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution, Nissan GT-R, VW Golf R, etc. AWD in this category is in a completely different realm, and whether or not its useful depends on the buyer because its sole purpose isn't utility any longer, its performance.

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PwnCall@reddit

Most people don’t need it. I hear people saying it’s safer in the rain which is complete bogus.

Also most people don’t need it in the winter either.

Most people buy it because they think they need it.

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Wake95@reddit

Have you driven identical 2WD and AWD vehicles in rain and other slippery situations? I have, and AWD is definitely superior.

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glasswings363@reddit

You need to drive less aggressively in rain.

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Wake95@reddit

I paid for AWD so I could safely drive faster under more conditions, like not knowing exactly how much oil is on the road.

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DFLDrew@reddit

Nothing scarier on the road than an overconfident driver

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Wake95@reddit

So my 20 years of experience in the same vehicle, knowing exactly where the limits are, makes me overconfident? Nothing scarier on the internet than an overconfident redditor.

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choppysmash@reddit

Yeah I’ll take a 2WD vehicle and spend some of the money I save with less maintenance and better fuel economy on good tires.

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Nemesis_Destiny@reddit

If you live in the snow belt, AWD is really handy to have. Certainly not "just for posers" - just for people who don't like getting stuck, or not doing accidental burnouts at every stop sign and light. That said, proper tires are still a must, and matter more than AWD.

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Insertsociallife@reddit

Unless you go on unplowed roads in the snow, you'll be fine with FWD and snows. I run FWD and snow tires in Minnesota and have wished for AWD exactly zero times. Never been stuck or even had a close call.

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UnderwhelmingAF@reddit

Anytime somebody gives you a percentage of people that something applies to, and that percentage is 90% or higher, there’s a 100% chance they pulled that statistic out of their ass.

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Z_Wild@reddit

Wtf kinda circles you hanging out in?? 4x4 is useless to people who've spent their whole life in a concrete jungle... the rest of the world uses it regularly. 🍻

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Mundane-Exercise6333@reddit

I stopped caring what others think about 30 years ago.

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Fr4nzJosef@reddit

I don't know where they are getting that 99% figure, where I am the winters can be absolutely brutal and while you can manage in a front wheel drive car, AWD or 4x4 is far better. No, it doesn't help as much on ice, that is helped by having studs and decent snow tires, but it does make a huge difference with the snow.

The only hate I can see for it js ridiculing the pavement princesses and their $80k trucks that they never do truck things with.

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alanbdee@reddit

If you have a need for a truck, then those haters aren't talking about you. But, if you're putting a 4 foot lift on your truck so you can haul your 6' trailer on a gravel road, they might be talking about you a bit.

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bobqzzi@reddit

For the vast majority of automobile and truck users, it is useless and an impediment at best. It certainly has it's use cases like those you have described.

The push back has come because they put AWD in virtually every vehicle these days, the vast majority of which are hurt by its increased cost, maintenance, and energy consumption. It's gotten so bad that where I live in RI, it's hard to get a 2wd version of some cars. (I had to get my RWD Ioniq 6 shipped in from Arkansas-Hyundai just doesn't send them to anyplace north of Virginia). Is AWD a good option for a crossover/suv? Almost never, even where it snows. Live in the Upper Peninsula? Go for it.

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rdadeo@reddit

LOL here in Western Canada, AWD or 4x4 is damn near a requirement in the winter.

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AVLLaw@reddit

If you live in the mountains, it's necessary to get through the dirt roads if your travels take you there. Some of the houses in the Appalachian mountains are only accessible with 4x4. When you come up the driveway, you are can only see the sky.

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QueenAlpaca@reddit

Can confirm, Rockies resident here. I used to live in a house with a dirt driveway so steep, only AWD + winter tires would get me up it in winter.

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RadioBuffin@reddit

Rented a house in WNC that had a mild grade out front where we parked our cars. Couldn’t get out after a heavy rain or any snow lol.

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Cheepshooter@reddit

Where I live, and with what I use it for, I wouldn't buy a truck without 4wd.

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jstar77@reddit

You don't need it until you need it and when you need it and don't have it you really wished you did.

I think the internet is right most people don't need it 99% of the time which means they need it 1% of the time.

If you drive 15,000 miles per year that means you need it for 150 miles of travel. 150 miles over the course of a year is a lot when not having it could mean you can't get to your destination or you need a tow. In some places that 150 miles of use might be concentrated into a couple weeks of severe weather in the winter. All the reddit homies are going to say BUttts SN0w Tires aRe alL yoU nEEd... Snow tires != 4WD/AWS give me good all weather tires and a good 4wd/AWD vehicle any day over a front wheel drive. It's not an either or situation snow tires on an AWD/4WD vehicle is even better. If you live in the urban or rural US where you've got hills, snow, and unpredictable plowing schedules buying a 4WD/AWD is well worth the 1% of the time that you need it.

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Youcants1tw1thus@reddit

A lot of people will never need 4x4 but it’s resale suicide to get a 2x4. I wish more people would break the cycle and get a 2x4, but I’ve also walked from cars that I found out we’re only 2x4 because I live in New England and need 4x4, so I’m part of the resale problem.

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overheightexit@reddit

4x2 is two wheel drive. 2x4 is a piece of wood.

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Youcants1tw1thus@reddit

Ford dealership codes that are burned into my brain. I don’t think anyone thought I was talking about studs so we will survive.

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Good-Department-5677@reddit

It's never a bad idea except for people who only think about image (& assume that's why people buy 4x4s)

I got a Ram truck in 2007. Since I had no plans to go off-road, I didn't get 4x4 & didn't think about a limited slip differential. Went to my daughter's softball practice had to park on the grass then it rained. With the Hemis torque & nothing in the bed it couldnt move - just spun. no gas was no movement, any gas was just spinning

had a lot of the other dads lease me about my truck...

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oboshoe@reddit

It's interesting that the use case that gets talked about mostly in this thread is snow. I might use 4x4 every other year for snow.

But I do use 4x4 and/or low range when maneuvering a trailer on dirt, or when pulling a boat out of the water. Then the added traction or low speed control is absolutely vital.

Bottom line. If you need it, buy it, If you don't, you can save a little bit of money on purchase and maintenance.

Either way, dont worry about what the teens on reddit think. Most of them are still living with their parents and are just playing pretend at being an adult.

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Lumpy_Secretary_6128@reddit

This thread is hilarious. Unless you have an unplowed road or no road and deep snow, 4wd in snow is not going to be useful. Multiple comments "I live in texas and need 4wd in snow" jesus christ no you don't. 4wd is great if you're genuinely offroad, in mud, on sand, on a boat ramp, towing horses, and so forth.

Awd is nice to have unless you're some moron who never heard of snow tires and complains you can't get a fwd car moving after only trying to floor it. In that case, AWD is a net negative -- it'll just get you further down the road before you get stuck. Yes I am talking about my old roommate. AWD is rarely necessary in a strict sense.

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Recent_Permit2653@reddit

I actually was sort of negative on AWD. My only experience was on my Pa’s Passat 4motion wagon, and it was…bad. It would tug at the steering wheel in corners. It was really unsettling to 16 year old me.

Then I test drove my Subaru. When done right, it rocks. It can throttle steer kind of like a RWD car, and as I have started to visit the outdoors again, the AWD has helped me through a few small mud pits that I’m not sure my Civic would have pulled me through. It also does make snow driving somewhat less scary for me (though it still freaks me out).

Most people don’t need AWD though, and won’t maintain an AWD system properly.

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Bulocoo@reddit

AWD/4WD only helps with acceleration traction. Not braking.

It absolutely must be useful in low traction situations.

That's why most rally cars classes and especially the top/fastest classes are AWD.

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ZaphodG@reddit

I’ve owned a condo at a ski resort for 31 years. I own an AWD car and have snow tires on winter wheels. I could get by with FWD and snow tires but it would be very inconvenient. I don’t have to shovel. I don’t have to pay attention to where I park. I can get to the mountain for first chair on a powder day. It’s just a Subaru Outback. An appliance car that is ubiquitous in ski country.

I certainly have an opinion about the owners of 4WD full size pickups with Trump stickers and a Confederate battle flag flying burning coal. I think the same about Cybertruck owners. If you use a full size pickup for work, it’s fine. If it’s a status symbol and you work indoors, it’s cosplay.

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CobaltCaterpillar@reddit

I don't see hate for 4WD per se but large pickup trucks that are frankly a giant hazard.

The "very large pickups" category in IIHS data has horrendous other driver death rates.
They're also a hazard to kids. There are numerous stories of tragic accidents where vehicles are too high to see kids.
On the freeway or other roads, it's hard to see around these giant things.

For 90+ years of Pickup trucks NEVER used to be this big and it was just fine.

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Heavy_Gap_5047@reddit

It's cope from all the jealous losers driving econoboxes.

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J-Rag-@reddit

I mean, not really. The amount of people you see daily driving trucks is kinda silly considering how little most people actually use it for its purpose.

That being said, yes they are very useful and practical for the few that actually use them as trucks. Most people who have a truck can daily an econobox and have an older truck that they can use for their one time a year they actually need a truck.

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Jeepncolo@reddit

They dont live in Colorado..... 5" of snow this morning north of Denver. Any location in the world that gets snow uses AWD or 4WD.. So the 99% static is just plain false. In addition, a lot of us go offloading for fun.

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Coyote_Tex@reddit

Sounds like you are a perfect 4X4 or AWD buyer. I always own at least one vehicle that has that capability and I live in Texas on paved roads. We do get some heavy rain and occasional snow and fi I want to get out, I can. Many AWD vehicles are noticeably more sure footed in the rain for example and are technically different from traditional 4X4 vehicles as AWD is far more sophisticated. Subaru and Audi's are both very good as are Mercedes 4-matic. The Subaru's are 99% percent trouble-free and easy to live with, meaning there is not really a downside to owning one as some vehicle pay a fuel cost penalty or extra maintenance for the feature. So, just ignore those critics and let them drive their Hyundai's in peace.

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Old_Cars@reddit

Depends on where you are and what you do if a 4x4 or AWD vehicle is right for you. If you’re just going back and forth to work in southern Texas and never getting off the pavement a 4x4 isn’t going to be as practical. If you’re doing the same thing is Minnesota you might appreciate the 4x4 or AWD to get the vehicle moving. If you’re getting off road and yes that’s more than gravel roads a 4x4 might be better.

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Its USUALLY unnecessary and financially makes less sense.

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Admiral_Pantsless@reddit

AWD adds weight, cost, and complexity, and prevents burnouts.

Lame.