Why is getting a DBS Checks so difficult for individuals?
Posted by The_Grieving_Golem@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 63 comments
Morning!
This question is purely out of curiosity. In my job, I work with a lot of people from the UK, and we require that they provide us with an enhanced DBS Check to prove that they are safe to work around children.
For French nationals, this is extremely easy. You just go the government website and can get a digital Criminal Record in a few hours. But it seems like the process is much more complicated (and also you have to pay?!) for British citizens, and I am just confused as to why.
Is this for legal reasons? Does somebody have an explanation?
(Apologies for any mistake, English is not my first language)
aleopardstail@reddit
didn't find it difficult at all when I needed it, took a week or two as they actually checked things instead of taking the word of some computer system as correct
form filled out, sent off, came back, with a code that can be given to employers
not entirely sure what value it added but the box was firmly ticked
MzHmmz@reddit
If you applied for it yourself rather than through an employer it was probably a basic DBS rather than an enhanced one, which is why it was quicker.
aleopardstail@reddit
this was enhanced, employer applied, I had various bits to fill in, wasn't a complicated process and was one I would prefer to be done by people over "computer says no" stuff
Diplomatic_Gunboats@reddit
Short answer: As the employer if you want an enhanced check (common for those working with children) you have to request it, not a potential employee.
The closest that comes to what you are looking for would be childcare workers in the UK who work for themselves/in a domestic setting. But they apply/register through Ofsted (as I recall) who request the enhanced check on their behalf, and provide them with a certificate which can be used to show they are safe to work with children.
Expensive_Peace8153@reddit
I read that they're changing it to make it easier for self employed people to get an enhanced check.
mailywhale@reddit
That’s how our standard DBS works, pretty much exactly as you describe there. I’ve not had an enhanced DBS before, but maybe the reason is because it’s a more in-depth version than our basic one?
CTLNBRN@reddit
I believe enhanced DBS checks involve contacting police forces in areas you have lived to check their records for criminal records/cautions/etc. In my personal experience my first ever enhanced DBS took weeks (I had addresses in two cities) but the couple I've had since then came back relatively quickly, I think the last one only took a week or so.
Dear_Tangerine444@reddit
It’s also worth remembering that there are certain times of the year in the UK when the backlog is longer than other times.
It’s always going to take longer just before the start of the academic year and each term than it is other times because of teachers/other academics staff starting new jobs.
If anyone works outside of teaching and wants a DBS in August/September they might wonder why it’s so slow that’s part of it.
CTLNBRN@reddit
This is true. There is other factors as well like the last time I applied all my addresses in the last 5 years fell under one police force and the year I'd lived abroad dropped off. I do wonder if for certain police forces if once you've had one they may keep a record of it and only search the period after. I applied for my last one at the same time as a collegue who had never had an enhanced DBS and had similar other factors (same address for the last 5 years, no interactions with the police) but his took 4 weeks compared to mine only taking a week.
Dear_Tangerine444@reddit
I’ve had that too. The longest DBS (might even have been CRB still) check I had was just after I’d moved from from the SE to the midlands, similarly multiple addresses prior to moving. that one took over a month and wasn’t at ‘peak times’ either.
mailywhale@reddit
Standard DBS checks criminal records as well though. In my experience that only takes a few hours
CTLNBRN@reddit
I'm not sure of the exact granularity but enhanced shows things like warnings and cautions which aren't included on the basic one. I'm not sure exactly how these records are held but the information required for an enhanced check appears to be less centralised (as per other comments) and harder to search for. Basically I think your local police department have to do a more thorough search for enhanced so you are at the mercy of their efficiency.
RealLongwayround@reddit
I may be wrong, but I believe Enhanced checks use data held on the Police National Database as well as historical paper files. A Community Resolution is not always recordable on PNC / LEDS.
mailywhale@reddit
Yeah that makes sense
Kaiisim@reddit
Yeah enhanced DBS will include any relevant details from the police - so even if there was just an investigation into abuse. Requesting data takes a long time.
JLaws23@reddit
It’s difficult because it SHOULD BE difficult. You’re getting access to working with kids and vulnerable people, as a mother I would expect these checks are rigorous and precise and I would not be happy with someone able to just get it for free in an hour online because that’s obviously not an enhanced check. If you need a police check you can get one in no time from a police station but not a DBS.
Longshot318@reddit
Not really. There's two elements to it. The threshold to PASS a DBS should be high (or difficult). The process to collate the required information and verify whether you pass or not should be easy.
RealLongwayround@reddit
For clarity, you have the concept of the purpose of DBS wrong.
A DBS does not prove that anyone is safe to work around children. A DBS proves essentially that someone has not been caught. These two things are very different concepts.
All Registered Nurses are required to possess an Enhanced DBS for example. If DBS proved that Lucy Letby were safe to work around children then her case would have been closed very quickly.
This may seem like pedantry. It is not, since it remains important to consider appropriate Safeguarding training, which involves training people about lone working, communications, physical restraint and contact, etc.
False_Maintenance_82@reddit
I just posted similar above, while necessary -I feel like it's sold as this magic thing that's preventing crime, but can cause false confidence/complacency
Farscape_rocked@reddit
DBS is more than a criminal record check. It also includes any relevant information the police hold which did not lead to a conviction. It requires an individual to assess the relevance of the records and add them to the DBS where relevant.
TrackTeddy@reddit
Are you comparing the same thing between UK and France?
Standard/Basic DBS check is just a check of criminal convictions. Is this what you are requesting from the French system? This is quick and simple.
An Enhanced DBS check provides a full criminal history plus relevant local police information and, if applicable, barred list checks for working with children or vulnerable adults. This takes a lot more time and effort. Is this what is being supplied from the French system?
AmazingPangolin9315@reddit
That's not a thing in France. The French, "casier judiciare" is the criminal record held in the national computer. There's 3 levels, level 3 is the most basic, level 2 is a more complete version which is usually required for working with minors, and level 1 is only accessible to the courts and authorities.
TrackTeddy@reddit
Yes, exactly my point, they aren't comparing the same things. The enhanced DBS check seems more similar to a Level 1 check in France as it can include pending investigations and allegations where not enough evidence was available to bring a charge. The French system just checks for convictions.
The_Grieving_Golem@reddit (OP)
You're right in that there might be a difference between what's requested in France and what's requested in the UK, which might explain why it's easier in France. It was just very surprising for me that citizens from most countries have no issue presenting us with a document certifying they can work with children, but for the UK and Ireland, the process seemed much more complicated.
TrackTeddy@reddit
There are several reasons, but the main one being that the basic DBS criminal records check hasn't prevented people doing bad things to children etc, so the enhanced DBS check was created and is now widely adopted. This is better, but takes longer. I have a feeling that France doesn't offer the same level of checks. It might be just as valid to ask why French nationals aren't being checked as thoroughly as UK ones?
Conscious-Ball8373@reddit
There are a couple of reasons for the differences.
Firstly, in the UK you don't get a copy of your criminal record that you can just present to anyone. Each role requires its own check. This results in some ridiculous situations - I know of someone who works for the NHS, volunteers in a community group, serves as a governor at the village school and is on their church council and each role requires a separate DBS check to be done. This is getting better with the subscription service and more organisation accepting the subscription service, but it's still a long way from ideal. Each organisation that employs you is required to do their own check on whether you are a suitable person and part of that is doing a DBS check.
Secondly, the UK's police force is a bit weird. It's actually 45 separate police forces. Cooperation has improved, and recent records are largely electronic, but there's a huge amount of paper records that haven't been digitised and probably won't be any time soon. Someone has to go and search all those records. This also has got better recently, with the service that does the checks only doing the paper record search once and then using the results of their last search for the next one, but for someone getting their first certificate it can be painfully slow as all 45 police forces need to search the indices of their paper records.
Likewise I think the courts service. Again, for current records they are all electronic and accessible in a single system, but there are records going back that are all on paper and all maintained by individual courts.
At one point, a policeman could haul you into the drawing room of the local magistrate and have your sentence decided on the spot with very little documentation. At least we've reached the point where no-one who got a criminal record in this way is still alive.
AnonymousCapybara72@reddit
Even moving from one NHS trust to another, or starting at another trust while still employed by a trust.
It's a total fucking joke.
The_Grieving_Golem@reddit (OP)
Thank you for this in-depth answer, it was very insightful!
Graz279@reddit
My wife has just had to go through the enhanced DBS. They request paper copies of bills and so on, but we went paperless on this stuff years ago. But no, can't be a print out, has to be the actual bill.
Antiquated and useless system.
bacon_cake@reddit
Had this with a few KYC things, I usually print one out, give it a little squish and a fold, scan it in again...
imtravelingalone@reddit
I just got one at the end of last year. It was extremely easy. I am from outside the UK but live here now and needed a DBS check for my job at my university. The school paid for it but I had to take all the steps to enroll and complete the process. It took almost no effort. If people in the UK are saying its difficult, they're either doing it wrong or lying.
MzHmmz@reddit
Was that a basic DBS or enhanced? If it's for a job at a uni it sounds more like it would be basic, as you're not working with kids or vulnerable adults. Basic should be pretty quick, enhanced can take longer.
Namaste_Life@reddit
I've had enhanced DBS checking through my employers. I didn't have to do anything.
Fellowes321@reddit
When I was a teacher, they wanted a copy of some ID and proof of address and then they did all the rest. What was a laugh is that they didn't accept our payslips. When they did their biennial refresh of the EDBS, they wanted a new photocopy of my passport when it expired. Apparently working in the same place for 20+ years wasn't enough to say who I was. I think they did it just to laugh at the passport photos.
askoorb@reddit
It's not difficult per say.
The rules are that the organtthat needs it requests it if it's beyond a basic check.
For employment:
This is to ensure that only in cases where it's legally allowed can an employer override the filtering for previous offenders who are now considered rehabilitated.
As an individual you can check your own criminal record for free, you just can't use that check to supply to an employer: https://acro.police.uk/s/
If an individual needs a record for some overseas purpose and the overseas employer won't use the UK system ACRO at the link above will also assist.
il0vOxy@reddit
*per se
BeanzBruv@reddit
I know it's bollocks mate but there's a few reasons why this kind of system is necessary
Victoria climbé Baby P Arthur labinjo Hughes Logan mwangi The philpot children And tragically many many more...
As annoying and stressful as it is..if it stops even one sick bastard getting near kids, then it's worth it..right?
False_Maintenance_82@reddit
Sorry but while well meant this argument drives me mad, including an old boss who said the system was good because "we all know what happened with Jimmy saville."
None of those cases would have been prevented by a disclosure check, which checks previous convictions.
Also most were caused by close family members, but as I said that's not even relevant because if they had applied their checks would have been clear. Obviously they were absolutely psychos, but disclosure can't show that up right.
Ian huntly would be a better example as he should never have been allowed to work at a school, although his offense wasn't committed there.
NaniFarRoad@reddit
They're not asking whether DBS check are overkill, they are asking why Britain is still using medieval bureaucracy for this.
Consistent-Sport-481@reddit
Never found it difficult at all takes 20 mins tops.
TellMeManyStories@reddit
The process is super slow because it has to check non-digital records which might be 50 years old and stored in a filing cabinet at a random police station in the countryside.
smudgethomas@reddit
This is part of the answer. The other thing is that we don't have much centralisation of police records. The DBS check has to use your address for several years and verify your Identity in a country where we have quite archaic systems for these things. Each police force has its own records and covers all crime in its area (usually a county or city) which means all of them have to check. Also a DBS has multiple levels, some quicker to check than others.
And it's privatised because. Yeah even Thatcher would go "wait what" at that one.
MoraleCheck@reddit
No it isn’t.
Winston_Carbuncle@reddit
It's not difficult at all. You pay Discourse Scotland their fee and receive the results in a few days.
It sounds like the French method is more efficient and cost effective but it's certainly not difficult here. Ive arranged dozens of them with ease.
Fellowes321@reddit
A basic DBS check is quite quick and easy. The enhanced version where you may be working with children or vulnerable people is more involved. You're checked against other lists. It's not called this anymore but "List 99" was a list of people who already had convictions or cautions but also those with particular mental illnesses or known drug or alcohol abusers. Controversial because it's not a crime to be mentally unwell or have an alcohol problem but you're on a list which will prevent you from working in particular occupations.
The enhanced version is more appropriate where the person would be in a position of power or responsibility for others. The basic is more appropriate for work where a conviction bars you from part of the job for example a conviction for fraud if you want to work as an accountant and complete a company audit.
jilljd38@reddit
If you have moved a lot it can take longer and sometimes there's just no rhyme or reason , they take the time they take some a couple of weeks some a couple of months
Sixforsilver7for@reddit
This is the only time I've heard of an aspect of French bureaucracy being more efficient than ours.
DBS's aren't impossible but much harder than the French system you've described. The main barrier to individuals getting them in my experience is that if you rent in a shared house it's sometimes really difficult to get enough addressed documents.
Thrasy3@reddit
I’m pretty sure their childcare system is better as well.
I used to have to help applicants a lot with these, the problem was some could come back the next week, others a month - if you basically only lived with parents and then your own place it was fine, but any deviations from that is just rolling the dice on delays.
Sixforsilver7for@reddit
I noticed with ones I sent off that people who had really common names took longer too. It's very easy to tick off "no offences" if no search results come up but if a million John Smiths pop up you have to go through them to check if any are the correct John Smith.
thespanglycupcake@reddit
If your criminal record is your criminal record, I guess it's a lot easier. We have things which can show up in one check but not the other - if the French system doesn't make that distinction, I'd imagine it's a lot easier.
Objective_Initial_81@reddit
It’s not difficult. If you need it in the UK, your employer sorts it, if you need it abroad you can het an Acro (they have a working with children option). There is also the Disclosure Scotland option depending on the scope of the check required. May be time consuming, but it certainly isn’t difficult.
fussyfella@reddit
There are two levels: Standard and Enhanced. The Standard does little more than you described which is a simple check on the criminal records computer system, and some checks to verify you are who you claim. The ID and residence checks are part of what slows it down: remember the UK has no central ID and residence databases and you do not have to register here you live. Checking you ID and particularly residence takes longer. It is not a very long process but still not quite as simple as typing in an ID number and checking your ID card.
The Enhanced checks are much more extreme (and what most jobs involving kids now require). Not only do they check the computer records, they will contact multiple police forces in the areas you have lived to ascertain things like arrest records and police "intelligence" as well as convictions. It is the intelligence that is a sort of catch all, while they are not meant to give out irrelevant stuff, it might well include things like a spiteful neighbour making accusations about you.
mellonians@reddit
You can do that here with a macro check. Why are you getting people to evidence to you that they're safe with kids? YOU should be the approved organisation that requests the check. The system is difficult this way to stop people like you overreaching and demanding enhanced checks without good reason.
There's a massive failing here, and it's people not using the system correctly.
thespanglycupcake@reddit
What a bizare response. OP is asking a question which includes a lot of cultural differences and expectations. It takes a special type of arrogance to assume that our way is the 'right' or 'best' way. There's also nothing to say for sure that OP is working in the UK, or in France (or anywhere else for that matter).
AdmRL_@reddit
Who said anything about right or best? It's a literal legal requirement lol. It takes a special type of arrogance to assume that just because you view another countries laws as inferior that they somehow don't apply to you.
Completely irrelevant, they've confirmed they're hiring UK employees and want enhanced DBS checks - that means they are entirely subject to rules around enhanced DBS checks, which they are not following.
Defiant_Size5991@reddit
So it's basically a combination of outdated record-keeping and outsourcing to a notoriously incompetent private company, which explains why something that should be simple turns into a slow, expensive hassle.
Chidoribraindev@reddit
You should be getting the DBS, not your potential employee.
One_Transportation14@reddit
Got my enhanced check within a week
rictay44@reddit
I had to do this when staying with a relative who was a child minder. I don't remember it being particularly long wait time. I also had to have one from France, but their website was easy to use and it came through fairly quickly (next day I think).
HighNimpact@reddit
They’re generally more thorough so they take longer.
A DBS includes things that aren’t actually on your criminal record - it’s not just convictions and arrests. It can also cover things like accusations, self-made declarations, safeguarding reports, cautions and a whole host of other things.
These things aren’t all stored in one online. They could be hard copy and not in one central location.
Bob_Leves@reddit
Because the DBS checks are run by Capita, aka Crapita, who are generally utterly useless at absolutely everything they do, except for extracting ever-more money out of their government contracts. (As told year after year in Private Eye).
MrDibbsey@reddit
Per the .gov website, an Enhanced check will also include any information held by local police that’s considered relevant to the role, so I expect that any delay is due to someone having to manually make the relevant searches of local police data, and the cost reflects the exttra admin involved.
A basic and standard checks simply show spent and unspent convictions and cautions so that could be a simple automatic lookup (one would like to think).
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