Career Advice
Posted by underground_pilot72@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 68 comments
Okay I need help with a decision on where to go
Job 1: current job flying a Challenger 604 about 150-200 hours a year. Owner is cool and wants me to stay. Benefits aren’t the greatest but not horrible. Flys international a lot and sometimes keeps us there. Also allows my wife to come on any trip she wants if there’s room. Plane is 15 minutes from my house so needless to say QOL is great. He is offering $200k after 2 years as an FO. $110k now and raises each year.
Job 2: class date is coming up flying the 757/767 with a 16/12 schedule. Benefits are pretty good with a 14% DC to 401k. It is home based with positive spacing. Pay sucks at first ($85k) but I’d be at $200k after 5 years. Goes up to $300k top out.
Obviously more money short term with job 1 but in the longevity job 2 will surpass it.
Just looking to see what some people who have maybe been in this situation chose and what they did with/without regrets
skyHawk3613@reddit
Take job 2. I’ll take Job 1. 😂
Texpress22@reddit
So I have been in the corporate world for my whole career so far and now at 39 I just started at a 121 major. I love corporate and have enjoyed the flying but decided it was time. 121 outlook, schedule, pay and benefits far exceed the 91 stuff at all but a couple departments.
Could you do some side flying in your 12 off days to help with the first year pay shortage?
SATSewerTube@reddit
I flew corporate and 135 for a loooooooong time. You’re only one bad quarter, one dead old guy, or one busted medical guy away from being on the street. On this last point, Harvey Wyatt will do everything they can to avoid a payout while LTD at the airlines is very straightforward.
121, while more boring and nearly as fun, offers significant buffer against future hardship. I absolutely miss my old gigs, and while no job is completely immune, the stability at the airlines is unparalleled.
Several-Village5814@reddit
Have you had bad experiences with Harvey watt? Do you not recommend their loss of medical
SATSewerTube@reddit
I looked into getting them back in the day. Between the intake exam, expensive premiums, and stories of denials it was clear it would be difficult to retain/execute usefully.
Several-Village5814@reddit
I was able to get it without intake exam because it was through union
indianmcflyer@reddit
Same here. I went on FMLA for a short period and they treated me pretty well.
Several-Village5814@reddit
Good to hear. I've known a couple people and Harvey Watt has treated them fairly. It's pricy but I never heard of them denying someone who warranted it legally.
redditburner_5000@reddit
How old are you? Answers are different for 30 and 60 year olds.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
31
redditburner_5000@reddit
I'd prioritize the long term prospects over the here and now. But that's me.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
That’s what I was leaning towards. If I could convince him of $300k over 5 years is probably where I would do a hard stay
redditburner_5000@reddit
Then your fortunes are tied to one guy. Professional flying is unstable enough. I'd say 121 all day long at your age. Upside is very good if it breaks your way.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
Honestly, that’s a good point we had talked about. I don’t see him getting rid of his jet but you never know. I appreciate the guidance
Flyguy115@reddit
I have seen both. Private jet owners just get rid of their plane almost over night, but I’ve also seen a few 121 airlines go belly up over night. Spirit is the latest one. Literally no warning to all its staff and customers.
rotardy@reddit
There were plenty of warnings…. The mass exodus of crew from spirit really hit its stride when the JB merger failed. Not saying unexpected shutdown doesn’t happen in 121. I’ve seen it several times in my career. Just spirit wasn’t unexpected.
A good rule of thumb in the private owner corporate world is plan for a new job every ten years on average.
Ted_Striker02@reddit
Seriously… the writing was on the wall for a couple years. Source: me 7 year Spirit pilot. I was lucky and got out a few months ago. Many didn’t.
Wingnut150@reddit
Yeah, I had a sweet 91 gig I could see myself riding out all the way...
Right until the owner got divorced and sold everything.
Bunslow@reddit
it's called bus factor, it frequently aint about what they want
(...and what people want is also subject to incredible variation, life finds ways to surprise even the most well-laid plans)
Worldx22@reddit
How old is he?
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
42
imapilotaz@reddit
Guy drops dead tomorrow you are unemployed tomorrow
Several-Village5814@reddit
16/12 is booty cheeks, doing long haul flights too that will ruin your sleep and QOL. It may be worth it but I’m surprised no one in this thread is mentioning 16/12 at a shitty ACMI.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
I was on a 16/14 at a medevac and it wasn’t that bad. Worst part was traveling because it wasn’t home based so it ended being an 18/12 to get there on time and get back
Several-Village5814@reddit
Sounds absolutely brutal
Drunkenaviator@reddit
16/12 for a couple years at an ACMI before moving to a legacy is infinitely better than playing private jet roulette for the rest of your career.
Several-Village5814@reddit
Yea, I said it may be worth it but he should know what he's getting in to and QOL will likely take a hit.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
Will the owner keep the plane? Will he pinky swear?
notnormal999@reddit
As a life long corporate guy with amazing QOL, great pay, and total unicorn job I’ve been at 27 years, if I were you, I’d take option 2 any day. Everything I just mentioned was pure luck (and also bad luck-9/11 etc.).
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
That is wild to hear. Any specifics as to why you’d take job 2? If you don’t mind sharing
notnormal999@reddit
Because I’ve been expecting to lose my job every day for 27 years. Nearly did several times due to mergers. I work for a great company with great people who don’t put pressure on us to do stupid things but they are still rich, entitled people and one wrong word and you’re gone. Everything good about the job was luck and all that could change tomorrow with a change in leadership.
ce402@reddit
Free life lesson that it took me 15 years to learn.
In corporate aviation, do not count on any pay rate above what you get on day one. What he's willing to pay you to start is not going to be much more than what he's willing to pay you to stay on.
I'd take the home based 75 gig for now and try to make it to one of the big 4/5 ASAP.
RequirementLive1755@reddit
If your end goal is legacy airlines, job 2 and keep applying to major airlines.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
I’m honestly good with either. Dream in the beginning was flying wide body international. However, I have a family now and I want what’s best for them
RequirementLive1755@reddit
I don't think anyone can truly argue that the legacy airlines have the best overall QOL, pay, benefits, stability etc.
If you can take the pay cut for a little bit I'd still go Job 2.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
It’ll suck but we can manage it. Plus it’s just a min guarantee. There’s extra flying on days off or contracting on the side if they allow it
Affectionate_Aspect4@reddit
Job 2, because job 1 Is too much of a future gamble. Don't want to get use to 200k+; then get rug pulled back to 85k years later if the economy dumps.
ZestycloseGene6176@reddit
Steak too juicy lobster too buttery ahh post.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
What the fuck kind of dumb shit comment is this? If you have nothing constructive to say, shut the fuck up.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
Never said it was a bad situation. Just a career choice. This can affect the rest of my life so I’m not just winging it. That’s why I was asking for advice from the people who have been in my shoes
NitNav2000@reddit
Just an alternate thought to stir the pot,
Your 120-200 hours/year is not much, what do you do with your free time? Seems like you could be doing something that also earns $$$, or pick up an MS, or etc.
x4457@reddit
Hahahahahahaha
Leave. Immediately.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
The average for a 604 FO is 135-145k. I make 110k because I came in non-typed and they paid for my type. If I stay I’d try to negotiate to around 150k now.
Even with that you’d say leave?
YouTube_AdBlock@reddit
Is 604 pay lower than 605? I make 195k base + bonus 2nd year FO and they paid for my type
x4457@reddit
Yes. Immediately.
You'll pass that in year 2 at any airline with way more job security and a better job. I'm guessing you're about to start with either ABX or ATI, but that'll be a quick pit stop for you if you have more than 3000 TT.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
I’m at 2200 TT. I plan on flying as much as possible to rack it up. I appreciate the insight
x4457@reddit
Then absolutely positively take the ACMI class.
All you're doing by staying in your current job is delaying the inevitable and letting several thousand pilots go ahead of you.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
Especially with spirit. I don’t see getting into a 121 for years after this
x4457@reddit
That's not really accurate. Spirit's pilot pool isn't going to make a very big dent in this year's hiring projections.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
Really? Why do you believe that?
x4457@reddit
Because United, American, Delta, and Southwest are projecting to hire about 7,000 pilots this year just between the four of them. Spirit's pilot group was 1500ish active, and at least 250 of them already had CJOs elsewhere according to what United, Delta, and American have said internally.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
I had United’s 2600 in my head. The 7k can definitely consume them so I see your point. I still don’t think I have a competitive enough resume without going to a regional. So a 757/767 type and time is better to get to them rather than waiting
x4457@reddit
If you want to work for a legacy, you better have 121 or military time. Ideally 121 TPIC but not strictly necessary.
Back in the peak of hiring, almost any 121 SIC beyond the regional level was a ticket to an interview. If things continue in that direction, that will be true again.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
I have no 121 time. I have mostly 135 time with TPIC in the Lear 35 at a medevac and a caravan (which doesn’t mean anything 😅)
x4457@reddit
I know you don't have 121 time. My point is that by going to the ACMI, you're checking that box.
Worried-Ebb-1699@reddit
Yup.
He could tell you tomorrow the plane is being sold and now you’re out of a job.
PilotDaddy66@reddit
Job 2. Take the pay cut and wild year one in exchange for stability an benefits. It’s hard to forget to play the long game in aviation. Ask the guys 60+ in the 91 world for their opinion, because if you do nothing you’ll be like them
IngenuityTrick5279@reddit
I was flying a citation in a cushy 91 gig and all was great…. Until it wasn’t. Owner put 500k into avionics and then sold it. Thankfully it was a part time gig and I already had a cjo with a regional
Mediocre-Piano1192@reddit
Wait what exactly kind of work do you do? I’m fairly new to this and your situation sounds exactly like what I’m aiming for
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
Current is part 91 corporate on the challenger. Class date is for 121 ops on the 757/767
Ted_Striker02@reddit
Job 2 is way better and it’s not even close. Don’t become a victim of sunken cost fallacy. I personally know lots of pilots that refused to start over at a legacy on year 1 pay and know they are scrambling to find a job (because Spirit). That 14% DC is huge 2. You should bounce.
Several-Village5814@reddit
Yea 16/12 is wayyyy better 🤓. Do you even hear yourself
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
As stated the benefits aren’t that good. However, it’ll take 10 years at the new place to surpass what I would make if I stayed at my current job. Invest that myself and it evens the playing field
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
Current 401k doesn’t match or DC. It sucks honestly
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
I was on the option A track at one time. Life was pretty good until a new pilot joined the team after 2 years. The whole thing collapsed because Dildo Baggins had to try to change the way we did things when he came in. I took a 160k pay cut and I'm far happier now than I was before. If I had to do it all over again I would be on the fast track to any airline job I could have. Thats not really in the cards for me any more but I would encourage anyone to not go that route unless its your only option.
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
That was something we talked about. I figured he could get tired of paying it and just hire a new guy
underground_pilot72@reddit (OP)
I’m at 2300 TT. I plan on flying as much as they let me to rack it up. Appreciate the insight
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Okay I need help with a decision on where to go
Job 1: current job flying a Challenger 604 about 150-200 hours a year. Owner is cool and wants me to stay. Benefits aren’t the greatest but not horrible. Flys international a lot and sometimes keeps us there. Also allows my wife to come on any trip she wants if there’s room. Plane is 15 minutes from my house so needless to say QOL is great. He is offering $200k after 2 years as an FO. $110k now and raises each year.
Job 2: class date is coming up flying the 757/767 with a 16/12 schedule. Benefits are pretty good with a 14% DC to 401k. It is home based with positive spacing. Pay sucks at first ($85k) but I’d be at $200k after 5 years. Goes up to $300k top out.
Obviously more money short term with job 1 but in the longevity job 2 will surpass it.
Just looking to see what some people who have maybe been in this situation chose and what they did with/without regrets
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