To my anarchist/sovereign citizens friends
Posted by itsamememario4@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 33 comments
You are free to consider that you are the king of whatever piece of land you want other people are also free to invade your kingdom and throw you in a cage. Human to human interactions are always anarchichal. Governmental system are just ways goups of people choose to structure their interactions. Society works by fiat even if you destroy all existing states if your neighbors get together and choose a new leader then you're right back to living under a new state. Being an anarchist is meaningless you have to pick a government structure at the very least to make sure no other government can emerge.
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
You fundamentally fail to understand the actual ideology of anarcho-capitalism. Anarchism means voluntary, so your introductory thesis that human interactions are always anarchical is a categorically incorrect strawman.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
My point is how do you apply voluntarism if the people next door decide not to respect that? Aren't you living in this society already
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
You use violence to defend your rights. We do not currently live in an anarchist society because the government currently claims a territorial monopoly on the use of violence.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
You are viewing the government as this separate entity. When in fact it's a group of people voluntarily associating. They also voluntarily agree to jail the first few people to dissent but all that is voluntary
OVO_Trev@reddit
It cannot be "voluntary association" if I can not voluntarily choose not to associate
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
You can choose to not associate. By doing so you no longer benefit from the group protection and the group just consider you a foreigner and invade you.
Sorry-Worth-920@reddit
this is not how the concept of consent works. consent must be obtained prior to the implementation of terms, not after. if i stop paying taxes, im not breaking some contract i had with the government and therefore subject to penalty because i never agreed to the terms in the first place.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
There's no penalty. Think of it as a subscription by opting out you're no longer a member. There's no negative consequences you achieved independence congratulations. Now as an independent state the government of the now neighboring state can decide to invade your land and throw you in a cage if you and your follower (maybe your kids or something) can stop them congrats you keep your land. If you can't stop them then they win. They never consented to resolving their dispute by arbitration they decided to resolve their dispute where they say your land is theirs by using force or by saying that they are the arbiter.
Sorry-Worth-920@reddit
again, not how the concept of consent works. i never signed up for this “subscription” so how am i subject to its terms
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
If I hold a gun to my wife's head and say "suck my cock, or you lose my protection, and maybe this gun goes off", she did not consent.
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
You clearly have no understanding of the ideology of Libertarianism, the concept of consent, and the logical implications of your own beliefs. Learn to think for yourself. You don't need the government to tell you what's right and wrong.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
On the contrary I believe consent can't exist if the alternative is stupid. I believe that we the people identity natural rights and create a structure that is meant to protect them i believe we need to shackle the government so that people can be free. Not having this super structure that is stronger than all but bound by the rule of law is tyrany precisely because in the absence of state someone will be slightly stronger than the others and impose his will on others.
I believe saying i don't want a government is stupid because whatver system you will use to protect your rights in anarchy will become "the government" the same way we have a government now. I believe either you didn't think anarchy through enough or it's not a stateless system and there's actually in your idea a state that exist and that you can describe.
zilifrom@reddit
I disagree with your last statement. I don’t have to choose to be ruled by an illegitimate entity.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
You have to choose an entity allowed to wield the legitimate use of force so that it can defeat illegitimate uses of force.
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
Why can't everyone use legitimate force? There is no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to defend my property.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
That's exactly my point.
If everyone's use of force is legitimate then your neighbors paying guys (cops) to throw you in a cage for not paying them is legitimate too.
If you want to stop the cops or other armies from treading on your rights you need to have a force of your own i.e. the government. The gov. Can be very different from today's but you need somebody to say this is legitimate this is not.
OVO_Trev@reddit
Why would someone's private "cops" throw me in a cage for not paying them when I never entered into an agreement to pay them?
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
Because you have money and they want to take it. 1 they don't need to justify it to anyone and 2 they can manufacture claim see putin trump and all of european medival history
OVO_Trev@reddit
"Somebody has something that I want" is not a legitimate reason to use force. So, yes, they have to justify TO ME why their use of force is legitimate, or else I am in a position to use legitimate force against them. You must be one of these "might is right" people.
unfortunateavacado24@reddit
Because they want to, and no one is stopping them.
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
No, because the only inherently legitimate use of force is defence of property. Rights are self-evident concepts based in humanities nature. You don't need government to act as chief legal positivist.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
Anarcho capitalism is one step closer than anarchism to being a coherent ideology
I would agree than certain rights are self evident but you need something to protect them and deal with edge cases. Can i make noise at 10 pm what about 2am. My brother inherited the full land but i think he coerced my dad can i take half. A bunch of people say that they've been protecting the region and want to be paid you disagree now what
Wise_Ad_1026@reddit
Edge cases would be delt with through private arbitration, common law, and general consensus, as they have been up until the 1900s.
TwoPoundzaSausage@reddit
This is just "might makes right" in too many words and a shitty meme.
TwoPoundzaSausage@reddit
You're confusing what should be with what is.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
Yes
Sorry-Worth-920@reddit
your post assumes a system of voluntary governance couldnt exist
lunaoreomiel@reddit
Yes, except no. You dont have to pick shit, make me.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
I can't the cops won't let me.
Kinda my point
lunaoreomiel@reddit
You dont join your oppressor .
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
If there were no cops i would pay 2 thugs to make you do what i want you need to have your own force to protect you. Now if your force is stronger than mine then you can make me do whatever you want. The only solution is for us to agree on a system that will use our combined force to prevent either force from forcing the other.
skylercollins@reddit
Sovereign citizens aren't anarchists.
Duh.
itsamememario4@reddit (OP)
In essence if a society is composed of sovereign citizens on their own property isn't that anarchy? Why why not?