Crosswind Pattern Entry
Posted by pm_me_your_rv@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 66 comments
I’m a new PPL with about 130 hours and having a lot of fun exploring new airports. For context, just a hobby aviator. As I’m planning pattern entry to land, if I need to cross runway centerlines for wind, I’d normally plan to overfly midfield at 1,000 feet over pattern altitude, then teardrop entry into the downwind. I was flying with a CFI last month and he says, “why don’t we just enter at the crosswind, pattern altitude, then into the downwind.” That’s obviously “simpler” logistically but there has to be a reason that isn’t taught as the standard entry. These airports are pretty quiet and not many, if any, in the pattern.
Question - is this acceptable, is it situation dependent, or what is this maneuver? How do I incorporate it into my flying going forward?
KC-Chiefsfan23@reddit
Oh my god nothing annoys me more when people do this😂 I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to follow someone in and make a 360 and wait for them to teardrop. So stupid. Just turn into the downwind. Like why is this taught
Discount_Confident@reddit
PLUS its so much easier to stay in the protected area if you just turn downwind instead of the large teardrop
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
What protected area
Discount_Confident@reddit
The protected area for a circling approach
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
We're not talking about circling approaches?
Discount_Confident@reddit
Does needing to swap to the opposite downwind exclude circling to land? No? Its the same question vfr or ifr.
Turbo_Normalized@reddit
It's not the same... When IFR you're A) not entering a pattern which is what the question was about and B) dealing with circling minimums which are what the "protected area" protects you at.
If you're VFR at pattern altitude you're above circling minimums so the TERPS's area doesn't apply in any way whatsoever. Also, the airport might not even have a circling approach or have been TERPS'd. The circling stuff is just completely irrelevant to OP's question.
Discount_Confident@reddit
A) You can be on an IFR flight plan and still make your approach with VFR traffic in the pattern. Which you will join rather you want to call it joining the pattern or not. You can insist that the parallel track next to the runway isnt the downwind if you REALLY want to but cmon.
B) Circle minimums can absolutely be above tpa, so yes they can 100% apply. An airport I landed at for my checkride has circle minimums 200' above TPA. You decent through the TPA, while making some of the same legs.
C) Idk why youre so insistent that a safety feature not be utilized. I didnt say it was the only reason to do the turn straight to the downwind, or that it was required by regs in this scenario, I just mentioned it was an added benefit. Grumpy ass redditors make this sub so insufferable
de_rats_2004_crzy@reddit
Maybe because the FAA calls it the preferred entry for non towered airports?
Solid-Garlic1527@reddit
To avoid crossing traffic on upwind and downwind.
KC-Chiefsfan23@reddit
What do you mean? They’re just lingering in the downwind causing more room for a potential hazard and like I said other people behind them either have to make a 360 or drivert
spacecadet2399@reddit
The FAA actually does list the direct crosswind entry at TPA as one of the acceptable pattern entry methods. It is standard. The method you use is *also* standard; you just do whichever one you think is safest that day at that airport.
Lots of things in piloting are down to your decision-making. The FAA isn't going to decide everything for you. There's a huge book of regulations, as you know, but not a lot of them actually cover things like how to fly a traffic pattern. (A few do, but there's nothing regulatory about how to enter one.) You have to use your judgment at non-towered airports.
Note that AC 90-66C says "Aircraft should always enter the pattern at pattern altitude, especially when flying over midfield and entering the downwind directly." The PHAK also shows a visual representation of this. So yes, it is a standard entry.
You *can* overfly and then do a standard 45 degree entry, which requires a teardrop, and that's when you should be 1,000 above because you're not technically "entering" the pattern until you're on that 45.
It really depends on how busy the airport is. If there are 6 other planes in the pattern, I'm not doing a direct downwind entry at TPA. That's a recipe for a midair. Those other airplanes have already spaced themselves at what they think is the minimum safe distance on downwind. You're going to try to time it to wedge yourself in between? No. I've had other pilots try to do that in front of me and I've had to break off my own downwind as a result. You're going to cut somebody off.
But if you've been listening and there's nobody on frequency and nobody that you can visually see in the pattern, then yes you can do a direct entry. Just use your judgment.
AgonxReddit@reddit
It is not a preferred method and it should not be used when the airport is busy. If there are zero planes in the pattern, knock yourself out.
theboomvang@reddit
Personally I think the teardrop is dangerous and have to have a pretty specific reason to do one.
iamtherussianspy@reddit
Can you elaborate? As I understand it's tge FAA recommended entry, and is taught as a go to entry by every CFI I flew with.
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
They can be dangerous because people tend to cross the downwind and then immediately teardrop around and back into the downwind, wing up the whole time.
What you are supposed to do is fly 2-3 mi away from the airport. Turn back way out there, descending, and enter the 45.
That is safer and that is what it is meant to be, but a lot of people just kind of do a descending 270° turn straight to the downwind.
OracleofFl@reddit
The procedure in the PHAK is not teardrop to the downwind. It is teardrop to the 45 to the downwind so, by default, you are further out.
AgonxReddit@reddit
Absolutely correct. The FAA recommends the 45 entry to be at TPA and a few miles to allow for traffic separation via see and avoid.
theboomvang@reddit
And the high performance airplanes and jets are flying downwind 2-3 or even 5 miles from the field so now if you have done it correctly you are flying in circles in the same area as very busy fast moving aircraft that probably don't have the best situational awareness either.
AgonxReddit@reddit
In this case one will hear the turbine traffic at the turbine TPA and adjust accordingly. There is also this magical new gadget called ADSB.
shockadin1337@reddit
The other people already answered your question pretty well, i’ve only had two close calls with another airplane and both were with airplanes doing the teardrop entry. Once i was already established in the traffic pattern (we were doing touch and go-s) the second i was entering a left 45 into downwind at pattern altitude. They often don’t go far enough away from the airport before they make the turn in
At my airport it’s common to overfly pattern at TPA straight into the downwind and i’ve never had an issue with anyone doing that. Maybe that will change someday, but for now every time i hear “right teardrop to the left downwind” on ctaf i’m prepared to get kamikazeed by a 172
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
It’s cause it has you fly over the airport, then away from the airport, then you’re doing a turn in the airspace surrounding the airport but your tail is facing all the other traffic, then you come back in on a 45 to the downwind. What was happening while you were flying away, turning around and rejoining? Idk let’s just send it.
It can often be worse for sequencing than just overflying midfield at pattern altitude and just joining the downwind if you fit.
Also a lot of people do the teardrop literally and just yeet into the pattern, when you’re actually supposed to fly like 2 miles away and rejoin on the 45.
jet-setting@reddit
Why not overfly at TPA and enter directly into the downwind? That is far more standard and one of the suggested entry methods.
A crosswind entry can be done too, but flying at non towered fields is all about being as standard and predictable as possible. A crosswind entry just isn’t very normal so no one is expecting it, or looking for it.
TheDornado13@reddit
why would you ever overfly the airport at TPA? That puts you in serious hazard for a midair if anyone is in the pattern. I was always taught to enter at a 45 to downwind at mid field. If the pattern is on the side you are coming from enter on that side or if on the other overfly at at least 500 feet over TPA and then teardrop in to enter the downwind at a 45.
Impossible-Bad-2291@reddit
Crossing midfield at pattern altitude to join the downwind is standard in many places. It's straight out of the Canadian AIM (RAC, section 4.5.2), where it also says that the Canadian regulations are alligned with ICAO’s International Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs)
TheDornado13@reddit
I'm going by the standards in America, since it is where I fly. And what I said is what the regs here advise.
isaacpwned@reddit
Pull up AC 90-66, 11.3 (Page 9). The figure is in the PHAK as well. It is an acceptable alternate entry method. American standards.
TheDornado13@reddit
Yes it is technically legal, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea and should only be used when you are 100% sure the pattern is empty. Is the chance of a mid-air or close call worth the whopping 1 minute it takes to overfly and teardrop back? All my instructors and my DPE said no. I've seen planes almost run into each other in the pattern because somebody wasn't being completely vigilant and I never want to be one of those pilots.
jet-setting@reddit
So then crossing directly in-front of the departure path to enter on crosswind is better?
Again, OP is talking about a way to enter the pattern at TPA without overflying and maneuvering back for the 45.
Overflying +1000 is better than each of these options, but if you are dead set on not doing that, at least do something standard. And you should only do this when the pattern is empty anyway, or at least no conflicting traffic exists.
TheDornado13@reddit
no I agree entering crosswind at TPA is a bad idea and crossing midfield is a more acceptable way to enter the pattern, but it still opens you up to that one guy flying around with not radio and not calling positions. Much better chance to see them if you enter at a 45, so I say it is always worth the extra time to do the overfly, plus that gives you a chance to see the airport and look for a windsock etc to ensure you are landing into the wind. OP was asking why it isn't standard to enter crosswind and the answer is it greatly increases your chances of a mid-air and I would argue crossing at TPA mid-field and turning to downwind does the same just not as badly. Both are what I would call a "bold" entry if you know the saying of old and bold pilots. But yeah if you are 100% that pattern is empty you can do the TPA mid to downwind, but my DPE gave me a happy nod when I said I could do that but decided to do the circle anyways even though I was 100% sure the pattern was empty just in case.
FlapsupGearup@reddit
There is a Charlie shelf 300ft above pattern altitude. Now what? We have 15-20 planes in the air at a time, switching off every two hours. Never had an issue entering from the dead side at TPA and entering into the downwind. Even if you have the space to overfly, most people don’t track out far enough and you risk descending into traffic on the 45
TheDornado13@reddit
a Charlie shelf like that is not a standard thing, which is what we are talking about, so of course you would have to change in special circumstances.
AgonxReddit@reddit
While the FAA states that is a way to enter, they, in so many words as stated in the publications, prefer the overhead to a teardrop.
Now, if there are no planes in the pattern, knock yourself out!
StrangeCow6712@reddit
Where do they say “teardrop”.
OracleofFl@reddit
PHAK page 8-4 and 8-5 Figure 8-3. It says to turn right on a left pattern...basically teardrop. https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/09_afh_ch8.pdf
StrangeCow6712@reddit
Okay so “basically” teardrop but not the actual terminology.
agadir80@reddit
In the diagram. You basically make a 225 deg turn to setup for a 45 entry into the downwind at TPA.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
They never say that though, your drawing connections between unrelated concepts
didsomebodysaywander@reddit
Overflying midfield at pattern altitude could be dangerous because an aircraft needing to execute a go around is going to be awfully close to you.
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
Someone doing a go around is going to be nowhere near TPA at midfield, unless we’re talking a 10000 runway or something.
didsomebodysaywander@reddit
I'm guessing you don't have an instrument rating or havent flown somewhere where people are doing practice approaches?
Practice approaches at an untowered field are actually a big risk because they're often not making 10 or 5 mi calls and/ or because they're coming straight in from 5 to 15 mi out and it's very easy to lose track of them. And yes they absolutely will be at pattern altitude or higher crossing midfield. That extra 500 ft. May or may not matter but it provides extra cushion for you to see them and if you make an evasive maneuver not go into the ground
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
I’m currently working on my instrument rating. Have a checkride end of May.
This is a different argument than the one you made before. People flying practice approaches are insanely predictable. You know exactly what they are doing, 15 miles before they do it. I’ve never once had an issue being at the same altitude.
If your “evasive maneuver” to avoid someone loses 1000 feet of altitude, there’s something seriously wrong, and I don’t think either entry would save you.
jet-setting@reddit
Yes, this is why you evaluate your entry method before you do it. If a plane is in the pattern that could be a conflict or on final then cross +500 or 1000 and maneuver back for the 45.
Entering on crosswind has the same sort of problems, potentially crossing right in front of departing traffic.
mild-blue-yonder@reddit
Cause the aerobatic box is hot and there’s jumpers away over the field, perchance? Otherwise, yes. Don’t do crosswind entry for no good reason.
JSTootell@reddit
At my home field, an upwind entry and then a crosswind turn IS the normal pattern entry.
So it really just depends.
OracleofFl@reddit
This is a very controversial topic but I want to clarify an important point you might be missing. Look at the PHAK page 8-4. It is teardrop to the 45 to the downwind. It is NOT teardrop to the downwind. This means the FAA recommends going at least two miles past the downwind to begin the maneuver. This puts you further away and on a simple 45 to the downwind.
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/09_afh_ch8.pdf
stikshift@reddit
I don't know how this is controversial. This is exactly what I was taught and it has significant safety advantages over a crosswind entry. First, you're flying at midfield above TPA, so you'll already be clear of any traffic and you can scan the field and pattern. Then going two miles out clears you of the downwind. On the teardrop you can scan for any traffic entering on the 45 or straight into the downwind. Last, it puts you directly into the 45 to the downwind for a standard pattern-side entry.
At any untowered field, you're going to get a mix of high-wing and low-wing trainers. If I entered my Piper at the crosswind while a Cessna is taking off into the pattern, there's a much higher likelihood of neither of us seeing the other and colliding.
OracleofFl@reddit
I agree with you. The key to me is that direct to downwind doesn't give you spacing from someone already on downwind or turning cross to downwind at the same time. I like a nice teardrop to 45 like 4+ miles out because it gives me options.
Perfect_Big_5907@reddit
Very common back in the day to enter the downwind from crosswind. Then the FAA decided to change things.
Material-Length9366@reddit
Some airports “require” crosswinds entries. E.g. KSZP
FWIW
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
I would personally avoid entering on the crosswind.
Any departing traffic will be nose-high, potentially in a turn. And if you're at pattern altitude, you'll be right in line with any other traffic in the pattern.
Keep it simple and safe. There's a reason the primary method is to overfly above pattern altitude, observe the field conditions/windsock/runway condition/any traffic below you, enter on the downwind, and then proceed.
"These airports are pretty quiet" - until they aren't, and Murphy's Law is a bitch. Also, consider any traffic might not even have a radio - or an electrical system. Or they're just not making calls. Do you really want to bet your safety that the pattern is empty just because nobody's answering you on the CTAF?
I don't think it's a great method unless ATC at a towered airport instructs you to do it, and even then it would be extremely uncommon.
HateJobLoveManU@reddit
If no one is around and you’re absolutely sure of it (not just checking ADS-B) then entry at TPA is fine. I don’t know why you’re doing 1000 above though. 500’ above TPA is the standard for GA planes.
pls_call_my_base@reddit
Entering on the crosswind is dumb, different, and dangerous. It puts you right in the path of departing traffic and in a spot where traffic on a proper entry may not be expecting you.
If there's other traffic, why not enter on the midfield downwind, either on the 45 from the pattern side or across midfield if coming from the other side? Talk to the other players and ask if they could extend an upwind or just announce who you are falling in behind.
Be predictable and courteous, and follow the guidance in the AC.
Whenever I see "creative" pattern entries like this at busy fields, I always wonder who has been signing off on their BFRs.
Qbert2030@reddit
Canadian input if you are curious on how we do it for some thought. Go to page 247 of the AIMaim
vanhawk28@reddit
At an uncontrolled airport? You don’t even have to land on the runway everyone else is using. It’s kind of cowboy land at uncontrolled. You don’t have to legally make calls, you don’t have to do what everyone else is doing, you can take off or land on a different runway. Basically just comes down to “be safe”
AgonxReddit@reddit
Not true, got read the circulars. The FAA has given their expectations for everyone to follow to maintain a level of predictability.
Professional_Read413@reddit
Seems a lot more risky then just over flying mid field and turning directly into the downwind to me.
In a busy pattern I'm a tear drop guy, but I always make sure it clear the field by 2 miles before starting the teardrop
Nasreth7@reddit
depends where youre at but consider a few things here:
when an aircraft is taking off, it has the fewer options and lower maneuverability, not to mention less visibility due to a high angle of attack.
where are those aircraft taking off? right into the area that youre passing to enter the crosswind.
it is your duty as the person entering an uncontrolled field not just to announce your presence, but maintain separation and vigilance of pattern traffic. in general, encroaching on that takeoff area is not advised because it falls almost entirely on you to see and avoid at this point (and people make mistakes, this is why we have this Swiss cheese model).
at the end of the day these standards in the AIM are not enforceable, but its a good practice to follow them. As you get more comfortable flying and learn these airports better your awareness will increase significantly, then you can consider some less standard entries into the pattern. this was probably the decision your CFI made in the moment but he clearly did a poor job explaining it to you afterwards. make sure you get a good debrief when things like this happen.
Orzorn@reddit
Entering at crosswind is exactly when some pilot could be intersecting you from his climb out. That's when they'll be nose high and may not be able to see you. I don't like entering at crosswind for this reason.
My preferred entry is the teardrop, but as others said it has its own challenges. The main thing with teardrops is to give yourself enough actual space. If you start too early and don't have an actual 45 degree entry into the downwind leg, then you'll be wing up the entire time and might not see traffic.
Formal_Syrup_4596@reddit
Tell your CFI they’re an idiot.
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
Situational.
I fly at A LOT of untowered fields. It is very situational. Going into a busy untowered field, recommend you fly predictable, well communicated entries.
Flying into a desolate field? Fly safe and aware and enter as needed.
BrianBash@reddit
Sure is! The only rule you have to worry about is 91.126 and 91.127. Left turns only unless specified.
Otherwise, try different stuff! Get a different perspective, mix it up.
Just don’t be silly. Example. Take a look at KTRM. When 35 is active, old guys will take off on 12 and say “oh I’ll stay west of the 35/17 corridor.”
Otherwise, have fun! I did a box descent the other day from 13.5k all the way down to UDD to stay above the nasty mountain waves we had out here on Sunday.
walleyednj@reddit
During my PPL checkride, my DPE strongly encouraged entering the pattern on crosswind leg at TPA.
flyghu@reddit
Have you ever seen AC 90-66C?
tl;dr overly midfield and teardrop into a 45 for downwind
Money-Evening-2624@reddit
Was the pattern empty? If it’s empty you can kind of do whatever you want as long as it’s not stupid
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m a new PPL with about 130 hours and having a lot of fun exploring new airports. For context, just a hobby aviator. As I’m planning pattern entry to land, if I need to cross runway centerlines for wind, I’d normally plan to overfly midfield at 1,000 feet over pattern altitude, then teardrop entry into the downwind. I was flying with a CFI last month and he says, “why don’t we just enter at the crosswind, pattern altitude, then into the downwind.” That’s obviously “simpler” logistically but there has to be a reason that isn’t taught as the standard entry. These airports are pretty quiet and not many, if any, in the pattern.
Question - is this acceptable, is it situation dependent, or what is this maneuver? How do I incorporate it into my flying going forward?
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