Flying Coordinated…
Posted by itsinthedata@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 31 comments
20 hour PPL student, trying to understand flying. What I mean by this is I’m trying to understand the difference between perfection and doing it right/safe.
My plane is C172S and has both a digital altimeter with the brick for coordinated flight and an inclinometer.
In general, when I turn left I use left rudder…the inclinometer ball is perhaps halfway off from center….but the digital brick is centered.
So in this example I’m trying to understand what is coordinated. Inclinometer says I’m not, but the brick says I am. I feel coordinated, I don’t see the nose yawing much but I also am a little inexperienced to judge that by just looking outside.
At the end of the day I just want to be safe. When making turns, especially in the pattern at low altitude, how can I make sure my turn is coordinated? If my brick is always centered because it’s not as centered at the physical ball is that okay? What kind of lee-way am I allowed in these turns to be safe and avoid something like a base to final spin.
Thanks!
Bunslow@reddit
this book chapter 11.7 is about how to perceive coordination
Disastrous-Trash1025@reddit
What book is this?
Squawk_0877@reddit
Trust the ball, mechanical = instant, the glass version lags,if they disagree, ball wins. Step on the ball whichever side it slid to, rudder there, halfout in cruise is just sloppy, where it kills people is base to final overshooting the centerline, cranking in extra rudder to swing the nose around instead of banking more, then pulling back because you're slow. That's the spin recipe, fix is to fly the same coordinated turn at 600 ft as at 6000 if you overshoot, more bank or go around, never rudder to help
EducationalTune6289@reddit
Moderately experienced flight instructor (and now professional autopilot watcher) here...
You could be experiencing paralax when viewing the physical inclinometer. If I recall correctly, it's installed close to the centre of the firewall, so you are viewing it at a surisingly steep angle. I don't think the inclinometer in the 172S was designed to be viewed at that angle, as it is only a "backup" instrument in that model. I seem to recall that "coordinated" flight in the 172S looked an awful lot like what you are describing.
If this could be the case, ask your instructor to take control, then lean into the center as best you can to view it dead on during coordinated straight and level flight. Then shift back to your normal flying posture and see how the alignment of the ball changes.
Whatever the position of ball is, is your new "centre" position, and should match up with the "brick" on your primary flight display.
Be sure to discuss this with your flight instructor though incase there are other contextual factors that I'm missing.
Prof_Slappopotamus@reddit
The S models I flew with a G1000 had center/right standby instruments, but I can't for the life of me remember if it had an inclinometer or not. Google images tend to claim they didn't, but I need to dig through my old manuals to see if one was actually installed or not.
But you've got the same read as I do. It's parallax.
Cougarb@reddit
A trick I learned when learning floats (even more emphasis on eyes outside) is your body acts as an inclinometer. If you’re in a turn, and there’s more pressure on your left cheek than your right; you need left rudder. Opposite applies. Play around with it
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Literally where we get "flying by the seat of your pants."
Hour_Tour@reddit
I was thinking this person was using their face cheeks to judge it....... Need another coffee, I think.
itsinthedata@reddit (OP)
I’ve heard this a few times. I think I’m a little tense in the plane still so unfortunately I can’t feel it yet haha
ShmupsPDX@reddit
I used to actively shake out tension when I was early in PPL training, especially before maneuvers and landings because my legs tended to get kind of stiff or lock up. when you're straight and level just wiggle the tail back and forth a few times with the rudder and kind of 'rattle' your knees a bit to just shake them out and get some feeling back into them. It's kind of silly but helped me stay connected and not tense up.
Also try shifting your posture around occasionally. I tend to hunch over cuz I'm a bit taller so i'll sometimes slouch a bit and lean back or just posture check and sit up straight for a bit. keeps you a bit more present and connected so you don't get all stiff.
Accomplished_Beat418@reddit
After a few hours of dual given, I start to tell the student what they’re doing wrong just based off of how my back feels.
bigbadcrusher@reddit
Biggest thing my CFI’s have told me is once you’ve instructed, you can feel it way more easily. Same as how the more experienced you are, it’s harder to spin a plane unless doing it intentionally because your muscle memory is locked in to do it right
One_Rip_5535@reddit
The one caveat to this is to remember not to trust it over your instruments if you’re in IMC.
Guppie_23@reddit
Yeah i find this. The inconometers in the C150s i fly are not very good and if i follow them I think i'd be doing all sorts of weird shit
charlieray@reddit
If either is off ever so slightly in roll, the result will be off. One or the other is wrong in roll. Can be checked when the aircraft is level laterally using a digital level across the seat tracks.
Frederf220@reddit
If you have poor confidence in the instruments that should be cleared up by the CFI pretty quick. He'll tell you if they actually disagree and which one is right. You shouldn't let distrust of instruments continue. It'll undermine your progress. That's a 5 min fix.
Inertial coordination is indicated by a life saver tied to some dental floss hung from the ceiling (or glareshield) just as well as the ball in the tube. It's mechanically a very simple device. The fluid is just to damp the oscillation.
flyghu@reddit
Call me crazy, but why not ask your CFI when you're in the air so they can talk you through it and demonstrate?
taytayflyfly@reddit
Just do the Dutch roll drill where you mark the windscreen and roll without rudder. Then use rudder. Try this again at different speeds. Watch YouTube videos beforehand.
retiredaaer@reddit
Find a Flight School that has a 2 seat tandem, tailwheel aircraft. Learn how to fly in that. You will become a pilot. Not an airplane driver.
andrewrbat@reddit
Do more power on stalls. They help a lot with coordination. Then some turns in slow flight. They also help with rudder sensitivity.
One of the best pilots i know took me up in a super decathlon and had me do a drill where you roll left and tight back and forth moderatly aggressively between about a 30° bank either way and try to never let the point in front of your face on the windshield move from the point it occupies on the horizon. Its deceptively hard but teaches you the relationship between roll and adverse yaw, as well as how to counteract it. This might be a little much for a 20 hr pilot but if your cfi knows the drill its a great practice.
Ok-Money2811@reddit
Look out the window and watch the nose. When you’re turning is the nose generally following the turn or is it pointing toward the outside wing.
That’s the best indication you have and it’s always in your field of view. Once you get used to it, you’ll never have look at the brick again flying VFR
Charlie3PO@reddit
What about high wind conditions with significant amounts of drift angle? That can give a strong illusion of slip/skid depending on which direction the wind is blowing, relative to your turn.
kkcfi@reddit
Lets talk about this. First, your eyes should be outside. Looking at the brick or the ball is not how we fly the airplane. We fly it by feel. Second, the digital brick is usually a tad delayed - think lagging. Definitely in the G1000 and most other glass. The ball is accurate but it is inside the airplane.
Moving on, how do you develop a feel for what is happening. Sight and by the seat of your pants. Let's talk about a few drills you can try with your flight instructor to do this. Always clear the airspace for traffic and do this at a safe altitude.
Drill #1: Modified Dutch rolls / yaw drill. Objective: Keep your nose on an outside reference while banking the wings 30 degrees either side. Setup: Get to a safe altitude, steady cruise speed and trim the controls so the airplane flies hands off. Bug your heading.
Step 1: Bank your airplane left and right approx 30 degrees smoothly but quickly WITHOUT using the rudder and then return to wings level. This will cause adverse yaw on both sides and once wings are level you will see the nose dancing.
Step 2: Repeat the above but this time with Rudder corresponding to the banking. If you do this correctly the nose will stay on your reference point and there will be no adverse yaw.
Points to note: Have your instructor demonstrate this drill before you try it. You will need some light back pressure to maintain altitude. Also, if your banking results in a change in heading, you are not banking quickly enough.
Drill #2: Understanding Yawing using Left Turning Tendencies, especially P-factor. Objective: Learn to recognize yaw and develop a feel for it. Setup: At a safe altitude, get into slow flight a few knots above the stall horn. Trim the controls so the airplane can fly hands off at this speed and set power to maintain altitude. Level wings.
Step 1: Once established in slow flight, hand over controls to your instructor and request that he / she release the rudder and slowly raise the nose. You should be looking outside and identify when the nose starts Yawing left. When you see the movement, your instructor should apply right rudder to coordinate controls. The nose will stop moving. Do this a few times until you can feel this movement in the seat of your pants.
Step 2: Once you are confident that you can feel the yaw, Repeat Step 1, but this time you will close your eyes and tell your instructor when you "feel" the yaw start and stop.
Step 3: You try and replicate Step 1. Obviously if you are flying the airplane, keep your eyes open 😉
Do these for a few flights and you'll be amazed how quickly you can just "tell" if you are not coordinated.
DisregardLogan@reddit
Today I learned that “the ball in the tube” is called an inclinometer and I have near 100 hrs TT
happierinverted@reddit
Ok first things first; eyes outside the aircraft and on the relationship between the nose and the horizon in the turn. Thats your best way to gauge balanced level turns in flight.
Now think about what is happening; the upgoing wing is creating more lift. When we create more lift we create more drag, so the wing is dragged backwards, leading to a slipping turn.
So, as you enter the banked turn add just a little bit of rudder [in a C172] as you start the turn. It’s really just a little pressure on the rudder pedal in the direction of the turn. Once you are at your bank angle the rudder pedals should be back at the neutral position.
If you maintain the into turn rudder after you are at your selected bank angle you’ll end up in a skid, which is bad….
My advice; find a good instructor and spend an hour thoroughly understanding skids and slips and just coordinating entering left and right turns to the point that you can’t really feel the rudder inputs.
As an old instructor, Smooooooth coordinated turns are a solid indication that I’ve got a good pilot sitting with me in the cockpit :)
Imho this thing should be sorted out and understood in the early stages of flight training, and before we get anywhere near the pattern. It really is foundational knowledge.
PlasticDiscussion590@reddit
I thought I understood coordination, then I started flying aerobatics.
The things that I think really matter are pretty simple: 1) If you feel coordinated, you’re close enough. 2)It’s fairly difficult to feel coordination in a side by side plane, and wider planes are worse. Tandems are easy. But don’t forget about point #1.
When someone says they’re coordinated, they most likely aren’t. Being truly coordinated has a razor thin margin, meaning you’re always uncoordinated. Often not enough to matter. Try to get it close and don’t overthink it from there.
EliteEthos@reddit
You’re paying someone to help you understand flying…
AlbertBrianTross@reddit
God forbid he try and show up to the next brief prepared with more information than he left with last time.
buzzybootft@reddit
I’m a ball hater, practice sharp coordinated turns and or power on stalls just before the break, you’ll learn the feeling and visuals better. The trick is compare your nose to where your wing (peripheral) is going.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Coordination is obviously important, but: No stall, no spin. Keeping your airspeed in a normal range in the pattern is priority one, especially when you're just learning.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
20 hour PPL student, trying to understand flying. What I mean by this is I’m trying to understand the difference between perfection and doing it right/safe.
My plane is C172S and has both a digital altimeter with the brick for coordinated flight and an inclinometer.
In general, when I turn left I use left rudder…the inclinometer ball is perhaps halfway off from center….but the digital brick is centered.
So in this example I’m trying to understand what is coordinated. Inclinometer says I’m not, but the brick says I am. I feel coordinated, I don’t see the nose yawing much but I also am a little inexperienced to judge that by just looking outside.
At the end of the day I just want to be safe. When making turns, especially in the pattern at low altitude, how can I make sure my turn is coordinated? If my brick is always centered because it’s not as centered at the physical ball is that okay? What kind of lee-way am I allowed in these turns to be safe and avoid something like a base to final spin.
Thanks!
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